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Still Under Development?


Game Space

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5 people marked this as a favorite.

Forgive me for asking, but is this still a thing that Paizo is actively working on? They only reason I ask is that Virtual Table Tops from small startups have been announced and have come out since Paizo announced their VTT. If it is a current project what is time table for release? 2014? 2015?

Please do not take this as a negative post, tone is hard to convey in text. This is a legitimate question from a GM who is very excited to move my game off my current VTT and onto Paizo Game Space.

Paizo Employee PostMonster General

It's still under development. As a project without a firm deadline it's had resources redirected to things that were more pressing. We're working on establishing a schedule for this and other projects that have been loafing along but don't have anything to talk about publicly just yet.


Thank you for your reply. I look forward to the release of Paizo Game Space.


As my group just entered to market for a vtt and will need a solution in mere months I am eager to hear more on when Paizo might have a solution for us.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I am really trying to hold my group off on our VTT decision - I want to give this a go. But it feels like its been a year now.

Im going to have to go with something else soon - which I really dont want to do.

This really is a sales channel for Paizo - I hope we see some reliable dates soon - I want to support this - but week to week im still running a game and spending so much time getting your content into it inefficiently!

Get this working and take my money for digital assets please!!!


Schade wrote:

I am really trying to hold my group off on our VTT decision - I want to give this a go. But it feels like its been a year now.

Im going to have to go with something else soon - which I really dont want to do.

This really is a sales channel for Paizo - I hope we see some reliable dates soon - I want to support this - but week to week im still running a game and spending so much time getting your content into it inefficiently!

Get this working and take my money for digital assets please!!!

It has definitely been more than a year.

Paizo Employee PostMonster General

It's been way more than a year. Thanks for your patience, the project is NOT dead. Development is now paused while we fix the process that led to the delay.

Sczarni Game Space Beta Tester

Woundn't be less spenditure of resources to buy off a small company that already have a working and popular VTT ? Or propose a partnership like there is for Hero Labs ?

Sczarni

Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules Subscriber
Draco Bahamut wrote:
Woundn't be less spenditure of resources to buy off a small company that already have a working and popular VTT ? Or propose a partnership like there is for Hero Labs ?

If you listen to the 2012 paizocon recordings for the game space panel, they discuss this for like 5 minutes, and why that wasn't a viable option

Sczarni Game Space Beta Tester

Cpt_kirstov wrote:
Draco Bahamut wrote:
Woundn't be less spenditure of resources to buy off a small company that already have a working and popular VTT ? Or propose a partnership like there is for Hero Labs ?
If you listen to the 2012 paizocon recordings for the game space panel, they discuss this for like 5 minutes, and why that wasn't a viable option

2012 is two years in the past. Money change hands, people change opnions, business change oportunities.

Game Space Beta Tester

Paizo has a lot of computer-based projects on the go right now, and I bet the one that will make money is going to trump the one that won't.


GM Lamplighter wrote:
Paizo has a lot of computer-based projects on the go right now, and I bet the one that will make money is going to trump the one that won't.

Then this should be pretty high on the list as it will open up an entirely new revenue stream.

Grand Lodge

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Agreed! I think there are plenty of people who have more money than free time, and would rather buy a module than spend weeks putting something together for MapTool or whatever.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Trying to keep on topic, is there a mailing list (or some preferred way) through which we could get updates to automatically find about about any new developments?

Would the Current features RSS feed be appropriate for this?

Game Space Beta Tester

Speaking of which - I just tried to log in and I'm getting an error message: "Unable to contact remote server."

Is the beta still up...?

Paizo Employee Assistant Software Developer

It should be up again. Not sure why it was off but likely happened during a website roll.

Game Space Beta Tester

Lissa Guillet wrote:
It should be up again. Not sure why it was off but likely happened during a website roll.

That did it, thanks! :)


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I was wondering what had happened with this. Well, I hope things get moving once again. :)

The Exchange

BigDTBone wrote:
Schade wrote:

I am really trying to hold my group off on our VTT decision - I want to give this a go. But it feels like its been a year now.

Im going to have to go with something else soon - which I really dont want to do.

This really is a sales channel for Paizo - I hope we see some reliable dates soon - I want to support this - but week to week im still running a game and spending so much time getting your content into it inefficiently!

Get this working and take my money for digital assets please!!!

It has definitely been more than a year.

Really? could have sworn it's not winter yet, but I guess my astronomy is not as good as I think it is...

On a more serious tone, I think this project shows that experience in making one kind of products does not always translate well to experience in doing another. In this case, doing virtual products is really tricky and it's hard to anticipate the amount of effort it takes.

I can't help but comparing Paizo Gamespace to the new client for Magic Online - and in this comparison, while both WotC and Paizo found themselves sunk to their knees in virtual mud, I much prefer Paizo's approach of not actually releasing a bad product than that of Wizard's (not only releasing it but forcing the issue by taking down the old server).

While I had very high hopes on this when it was first announced, and was disappointed when the equinox came and Paizo Gamespace still wasn't around, I'm happy with how Paizo are handling this. When it will be ready, I'm sure it will enable me to play MUCH more Pathfinder than I currently do.

Silver Crusade Game Space Beta Tester

Gary Teter wrote:
It's still under development. As a project without a firm deadline it's had resources redirected to things that were more pressing. We're working on establishing a schedule for this and other projects that have been loafing along but don't have anything to talk about publicly just yet.
Gary Teter wrote:
It's been way more than a year. Thanks for your patience, the project is NOT dead. Development is now paused while we fix the process that led to the delay.

Any movement on GameSpace since these posts that can be shared?

:-)

Paizo Employee Assistant Software Developer

We're going through some process changes, and with Con season upon us and other projects, this is currently still paused. I've got a bunch of stuff done (but not ready for public consumption), however. We may have more to say about Game Space in a while, but for now there isn't any news.

Silver Crusade

Sad times.

Silver Crusade Game Space Beta Tester

Lissa Guillet wrote:
We're going through some process changes, and with Con season upon us and other projects, this is currently still paused. I've got a bunch of stuff done (but not ready for public consumption), however. We may have more to say about Game Space in a while, but for now there isn't any news.

Thanks for the update! :-)

Paizo Employee Assistant Software Developer

2 people marked this as a favorite.

I wish I had more for ya. =) Hopefully soon.

Game Space Beta Tester

Perhaps an odd thought, but after reading the new Emerald Spire I realized it could make a very good template for allowing users to test game space in a full campaign without the need to upload custom maps. Emerald Spire covers levels 1-13 more or less entirely within the 16 flip-mat maps.

Not that Black Fang's Dungeon isn't a great map, but it's mostly useful for one-offs.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

Please don't pull a WoTC on this :D

Grand Lodge Game Space Beta Tester

WELL … didn't WoTC develop an entire working system, get people on it, and THEN get rid of it?

Ah I looked it up, nope … it was just in Beta.

I just want to say good work to the tech team … Game Space is a huge job and the team seems already pretty thin on the ground with how many other high priority tasks there are, such as keeping the store running!

So, whether or not it gets done, or can compete with the existing options, it's an impressive effort.


It would be great to see videos from the testing phase.

I supported PFO's kickstarter, whether or not I'll actually end up playing it, I supported Roll20, and if your ideas for the VTT look good, I'd be willing to support that too. But you won't catch any fish without any bait.


maybe we need a kickstarter for this to get it to finish?

Game Space Beta Tester

Eric Chen wrote:
maybe we need a kickstarter for this to get it to finish?

I'm going to have to agree.


RHMG Animator wrote:
Eric Chen wrote:
maybe we need a kickstarter for this to get it to finish?
I'm going to have to agree.

It isn't real. It's an elaborate April Fools Joke that ran its course 2.5 years ago. Even when they finally get around to finishing it, d20pro is working on their second generation of software. This will never be the premier service that Paizo envisioned it as. Game space will always be a 3rd tier service because the company developing it isn't committed to making it a success.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Modules Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

The problem is that a fully-featured VTT as envisioned is a huge project. It's a completely different programming challenge from pretty much every other software product. Unlike video games, you can't rely on an off-the-shelf rendering engine. You have to build everything from the ground up, and that requires a phenomenal organization skills. Virtually nobody has the know-how to just make this product.

Yes, there are programs out there that do parts of what this needs to become. Roll20 exists, but lacks any rules integration. Hero Lab exists, but lacks any VTT features. Various web sites exist that have different degrees of play-by-post ability. There are a bunch of campaign-manager web sites. The idea of wrapping all of that - and more - into one smoothly operating site is daunting. It's just a massive undertaking.

Paizo not being in the software development business isn't exceptionally equipped to manage such a project. Hiring the right people to understand and wrangle the resources into place is a challenge in itself, assuming the budget existed, which isn't a given for a product with a completely untested revenue stream.

I suspect someone caught on to the huge rabbit hole, and this is on hold semi-permanently.


Anguish wrote:

The problem is that a fully-featured VTT as envisioned is a huge project. It's a completely different programming challenge from pretty much every other software product. Unlike video games, you can't rely on an off-the-shelf rendering engine. You have to build everything from the ground up, and that requires a phenomenal organization skills. Virtually nobody has the know-how to just make this product.

Yes, there are programs out there that do parts of what this needs to become. Roll20 exists, but lacks any rules integration. Hero Lab exists, but lacks any VTT features. Various web sites exist that have different degrees of play-by-post ability. There are a bunch of campaign-manager web sites. The idea of wrapping all of that - and more - into one smoothly operating site is daunting. It's just a massive undertaking.

Paizo not being in the software development business isn't exceptionally equipped to manage such a project. Hiring the right people to understand and wrangle the resources into place is a challenge in itself, assuming the budget existed, which isn't a given for a product with a completely untested revenue stream.

I suspect someone caught on to the huge rabbit hole, and this is on hold semi-permanently.

I suspect you are correct. The level of horizontal integration that is required to fully realize this niche is huge. I think that d20pro is on the right track, but I see a few things that even their new system wont have. Namely fully integrated campaign management as obsidian portal and it would be really nice to have some other resource management tools along the lines of http://www.chronicleforge.com/ Aside from that, while the next version of d20pro will support character sheets that automatically handle the background/mundane math heavy mechanics I think it will eventually need to directly take an import of herolab file to really be first class.

All of that plus a seamless webstore with artwork and maps for published adventures and an adaptive background music engine.

I think that if paizo isn't prepared to go all in and deliver on all of the above features and really put out a world class product that they should just let the others in the market continue to do what they are doing and stay out.

The last thing the VTT market needs right now is more competition, further splitting the relatively few dollars available and stunting development.

Grand Lodge Game Space Beta Tester

2 people marked this as a favorite.

The main thing that would draw me to GameSpace from Roll20 (which I love), is all the maps and graphics for an AP packaged and ready to go.

What Paizo should do is just focus on selling these packages for use in the existing systems such as Roll20, D20Pro, RealmWorks, etc.

For instance, I buy the Rise of the Runelords VTT package from paizo and I get all maps, and images ready for loading into Roll20. Already sized correctly, already with dynamic lighting added, images of NPCs and handouts.

This way Paizo is no-longer trying to develop such a complex/resource intensive project. They just need to work with the other developers (Roll20, D20Pro) to develop a path from a Paizo site purchase, to loading the data into the specific system. They also need to size the graphics and add things like dynamic lighting, but that's no big deal.

Game Space Beta Tester

Heard a rumor at GenCon that GameSpace is being scrapped. Any truth to it?

Scarab Sages

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

While this intrigued me a few years back, I'm not surprised its super back burner to potential vaporware.

OpenRPG and Fantasygrounds both went under as Maptool emerged. As it stagnated development, Roll20 and d20pro both emerged as popular. Right now, I can goto forums like thetangledweb.net and find games recruiting on probably 3 out of those 5 systems, all with dedicated user based.

Myself, I've spent the better part of 8-9 years gaining a pretty solid mastery of Maptool (as far as you can do it without being a java programmer). Roll20 and d20pro are both horrible on the areas that I find essential in a program (token specific macros, inline dice rolls, not having to hit T to talk...), and while d20pro's new Kickstarter sounds intriguing (i'll probably pony the money to upgrade my legacy license to unlimited version), if the same design philosophy that is present in current d20pro (basically neutering any ability to make player tokens w/o a gm license and having *NO* macro capabilities) is in the new version, I won't use it to run a game. Mote, being a Maptool derivative, might pull me away, but the current beta is dook.

Gamespace falls into the same category. I've invested too much mental effort into mastering Maptool, and unless Gamespace somehow emerges able to fully replace all of the essential things I require to run a game, it won't be used to run any of my games. Its sad, but its true.

I do agree, however, that working with the existing players in the market, or hell, having the AP map packs being VTT ready out of the box will go a long way into helping Paizo save face with the VTT market who was giddy when this was announced. Doing as RyanH had mentioned, though, would probably be through a license agreement, since that is a lot of mundane VTT prepwork for a 1st party employee :P

Dark Archive Game Space Beta Tester

I prefer for paizo to finish gamespace as the stuff they said, offering maps for the AP's that people already purchased for free, at least that was my take. If they licensed the maps I would not be able to get it as I spend to much as it is already. But I would understand if they never got around to it. Even though I think they will still, just the new site and Pathfinder Online stuff has pushed this project on to the back burner.

Grand Lodge

I'd kickstarter this into completion in a heartbeat. I don't want to use another VTT only to have to start over when/if this sees the light of day. I want a VTT that is done in-house by Piazo but I could accept it if they licensed it out to another company that has a better chance of delivering a finished product. I think they should at least throw us a bone and give us something to work with. Is it still being actively worked on or is it on indefinite hold while stuck in development hell? I think the lack of information, even a simple "We're alive and fighting!", is most damning. Hopes are fading...

SM

Paizo Employee Assistant Software Developer

7 people marked this as a favorite.

It's not been scrapped.

Game Space Beta Tester

I figured it was not scrapped due to seeing GameSpace in the account page, even though I'm not in it (No access).

But I believe most of us are looking for an update on the software itself.
We are looking for things like; new screen shots, new updates of what is being worked on for it, new beta invites, new features, ... etc

Grand Lodge

Lissa Guillet wrote:
It's not been scrapped.

Thanks for throwing us a bone!

SM


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Maybe Obsidian can help....

The Exchange

DaveMage wrote:
Maybe Obsidian can help....

Like

Dark Archive Game Space Beta Tester

3 people marked this as a favorite.

They just need to sweeten the deal until they convince Pygon to hire on at Paizo.

Shadow Lodge Game Space Beta Tester

1 person marked this as a favorite.

The kickstarter idea isn't a bad one.

We'd need to know what kind of plans you have for Paizo Game Space to get the support it needs, but a lot of people are keen to see this project get done. Even if it fails, you can still fall back to plan A and keep doing what you're doing, even if that means another few years' delay.

Grand Lodge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Kickstarter really only helps if money is the issue, and every indication is that the issue is just workload.
And before anyone says "hire more people", realize that there are open job postings.


Scribbling Rambler wrote:

Kickstarter really only helps if money is the issue, and every indication is that the issue is just workload.

And before anyone says "hire more people", realize that there are open job postings.

Not to suggest that I know about Paizo's specific hiring strategies, but there is a big difference between hanging the proverbial "now hiring" sign and aggressively recruiting targeted candidates to fill a particular role in your company.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

Hire Pygon. Ttop is awesome.


BigDTBone wrote:
Scribbling Rambler wrote:

Kickstarter really only helps if money is the issue, and every indication is that the issue is just workload.

And before anyone says "hire more people", realize that there are open job postings.
Not to suggest that I know about Paizo's specific hiring strategies, but there is a big difference between hanging the proverbial "now hiring" sign and aggressively recruiting targeted candidates to fill a particular role in your company.

I'd have considered applying if it was 3-5 years C#, with Java as a plus, instead of the other way around.

Grand Lodge Game Space Beta Tester

Bobson wrote:
BigDTBone wrote:
Scribbling Rambler wrote:

Kickstarter really only helps if money is the issue, and every indication is that the issue is just workload.

And before anyone says "hire more people", realize that there are open job postings.
Not to suggest that I know about Paizo's specific hiring strategies, but there is a big difference between hanging the proverbial "now hiring" sign and aggressively recruiting targeted candidates to fill a particular role in your company.
I'd have considered applying if it was 3-5 years C#, with Java as a plus, instead of the other way around.

It's still up there ... apply. What have you got to lose. Code is code.

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