The main reason is that it is an incredible security risk.
Teleportation circles allow you to move entire armies here and there at an incredible rate of speed. This effect is how the Inspired in Eberron control an entire continent from a central teleporting 'dispatch chamber' in the capital, instead of needing to post armies in each location.
If an enemy seizes the circle without your knowledge, they have a gate to your doorstep. The security risk probably isn't worth it for most kingdoms. Likewise, the erosion of law and problems with jurisdiction from two communities so closely tied would be a headache.
However, I can totally see teleportation circles being set up in short order to move armies around one by one between distant locations, instead of shipping them here and there. Time is money, after all, and if you have an archmage on your side, it's definitely the way to go.
A wizard would have no more or less interest in doing this then his duty and/or greed demands. If someone wants to pay him 50k to set up a circle and foot the material costs, who is he to complain?
==Aelryinth
I did note, although very briefly the security risk. Which is why I mentioned putting them outside of cities in secure areas, but still nearby. Yes, you would definitely have a different set of security procedures you would have to follow to deal with the change and potential backlash of someone capturing a teleportation circle. I think for a small kingdom the risk would be too great...but for large and powerful kingdom's I'm still unsure. Honestly, I'm not certain any kingdom's in the inner sea are sufficiently powerful enough. Maybe Cheliax, though I could see red tape and bureaucracy keeping teleportation circles from being implemented.
What is with the wizard stereotyping in this thread?
Cause erebody got rag on a wizza
If teleportation circles are a security risk then they are a security weather or not they are allowed by the kingdom in question. A teleportation circles used to port in an army can be done even if you have not set up a permanent one outside. If anything a permanent circle increases your security by allowing you to bring in your own army.
Teleportation magic as a replacement for conventional trade networks would suffer from a number of severe weaknesses. I suspect the availability of such would change the nature of trade in some ways, but it seems far-fetched to propose that it would eliminate conventional shipping.
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And what about all the trade that doesn't occur between major cities? Is the merchant going to teleport to every podunk little seaside village? One advantage of ships is that they can stop at every port along the way to do business. Relying on greater teleport means you limit yourself to major cities with high level casters. There is still a need to use ships and wagons to trade everywhere those guys don't live.
And what about all the trade that doesn't occur between major cities? Is the merchant going to teleport to every podunk little seaside village? One advantage of ships is that they can stop at every port along the way to do business. Relying on greater teleport means you limit yourself to major cities with high level casters. There is still a need to use ships and wagons to trade everywhere those guys don't live.
This is one of the major problems with the idea of completely replacing ships with magic, yes. Magic connects Cartesian points. Trade connects regions.
Relative expenses aside, a river barge floating down the Nile is actually a much better tool for trading grain than a 10th level sorcerer with teleport and a portable hole.
Teleportation magic as a replacement for conventional trade networks would suffer from a number of severe weaknesses. I suspect the availability of such would change the nature of trade in some ways, but it seems far-fetched to propose that it would eliminate conventional shipping.
Mostly because wizards who can cast greater teleport have better things to be doing with their time. Also far better ways to make money.
Relative expenses aside, a river barge floating down the Nile is actually a much better tool for trading grain than a 10th level sorcerer with teleport and a portable hole.
Sure. But a sorcerer with teleport and a portable hole, within the core rules, could transfer more tea from India to England in a year than the entire Dutch East India Company did in the same time frame.
If you want long distance trade in your game to be handled via physical means, which is paramount for any game themed around seafaring or pirates or the like, then you must nerf teleport in some way. There's no getting around it. Otherwise, nothing is transported by ship, and there's nothing to "pirate" in the first place.
I posted a link above to how my group did it. Basically we cut scry and teleport off at each continent in our world, and have storyline justifications for it. It works quite nicely, and funnels most of the inter-ocean travel back onto boats.
If a merchant buys some Boots of Teleportation and a mammoth loaded up to the gills with stuff, he'd better leave some room for guards too. Otherwise someone is going to take those boots, trade goods and mammoth off him (in that order). One advantage of a cargo ship is that it comes with 2 dozen guards and is a tricky thing to steal. Boots are easier.
Why not use Permanent Teleportation Circles for 25,880gp setup cost (also need a 17th level wizard.)
Unlimited cargo and passenger. No need to clean up after the Brachiosaurus.
Teleportation circles are point to point and only one way. However, a savvy and specialized guild would probably do this over time. Magic item merchants come to mind.
Relative expenses aside, a river barge floating down the Nile is actually a much better tool for trading grain than a 10th level sorcerer with teleport and a portable hole.Sure. But a sorcerer with teleport and a portable hole, within the core rules, could transfer more tea from India to England in a year than the entire Dutch East India Company did in the same time frame.
If you want long distance trade in your game to be handled via physical means, which is paramount for any game themed around seafaring or pirates or the like, then you must nerf teleport in some way. There's no getting around it. Otherwise, nothing is transported by ship, and there's nothing to "pirate" in the first place.
I posted a link above to how my group did it. Basically we cut scry and teleport off at each continent in our world, and have storyline justifications for it. It works quite nicely, and funnels most of the inter-ocean travel back onto boats.
I know a number of other homebrews that have taken the same course (making it difficult to teleport between continents). I agree that magic has more to offer to revolutionize long distance intercontinental trade routes than it does to revolutionize intracontinental trade, particularly when it comes to trade goods that are very valuable compared to their size or weight (luxuries, gems, magic items, etc). The same for personal travel.
Teleportation circles linking Amsterdam and Batavia might have meant no more East Indiamen making the journey around the Cape, yeah. But it would not likely have put an end to intra-Indies shipping.
Or would teleportation circles linking London, Lübeck and Bergen have meant no more ships involved in the Baltic timber trade? I doubt it.
There's a lot of short and medium distance shipping to consider in bulk goods like grain, wool and timber that wouldn't teleport well.
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I was wrong about using a dinosaur to carry you stuff but a mastodon is only 2000 GP and only 3 points lower in str. 6k in a saddle of giant strength and a 12th level caster allows you to move 130 tons with 2 ton left over to build the cargo pod itself. This still about 20x as efficient as a ship.
Still runs into the 'animals can't use magic items' thing. And requires CL 12 teleportation to work with a handler using an item.
Now, that works in theory, but by my calculations, only one in maybe 15,000 people is 12th level, and probably one in five of them at most are Wizards or others capable of casting Teleport (and probably less, actually). So one in 75,000 people are capable of doing this at all. Now, how many 12th level Wizards or Sorcerers do you think want to make a lot of money in trade? It's certainly not all of them. But money is very nice, so we'll say half of them would be interested. So, now, one in 150,000 people might do this. Of them, maybe half will hit on this specific method of gaining gold (and that's being generous, it's probably less). So...one in 300,000 people are set up to do this at most, and of them, probably half can't go further than about 1200 miles (being only 12th level, not 13th plus). That's...not very many people per country, and significantly less than one per city. Given the average size of cities, it's maybe one per twenty cities. And he can only make a couple of trips per day at most, and (if using Teleport and not Greater Teleport) can really only go to places he's been before and is familiar with.
Now, you could argue that they could just make an item to do it and then any expert can manage it...but that ignores the fact that any Wizard who is doing this for a living is gonna want to have a monopoly, and being a 12th level plus Wizard, can ensure such things don't become widespread fairly readily.
The Teleportation Circle idea is a bit more viable...but on the other hand, why would a 17th level Wizard do it? He can already go wherever he wants, and can also do ridiculous things like create a demiplane because he's bored. He'd need a pretty compelling motivation (other than money, which he can get casually in many other ways) to do this. If a PC wants to, more power to them, but it's not surprising that nobody's got such a network up and running right now (ancient Azlant or Thassilon might easily have had one, as might Nex or Old Mage Jatembe in their prime).
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Have you even seen what a dinosaur of that size does to a fine pair of shoes in a single day's march? Ears right through them in no time! Pretty much just turns them into garbage.
Relative expenses aside, a river barge floating down the Nile is actually a much better tool for trading grain than a 10th level sorcerer with teleport and a portable hole.Sure. But a sorcerer with teleport and a portable hole, within the core rules, could transfer more tea from India to England in a year than the entire Dutch East India Company did in the same time frame.
If you want long distance trade in your game to be handled via physical means, which is paramount for any game themed around seafaring or pirates or the like, then you must nerf teleport in some way. There's no getting around it. Otherwise, nothing is transported by ship, and there's nothing to "pirate" in the first place.
I posted a link above to how my group did it. Basically we cut scry and teleport off at each continent in our world, and have storyline justifications for it. It works quite nicely, and funnels most of the inter-ocean travel back onto boats.
This tends to be one of the many reasons I keep the number of casters in my worlds to a relatively small number, and even smaller when it comes to high-level ones.
There might be one caster in a capital city capable of casting teleport (and a couple of others scattered randomly around the nation), and they're likely busy with more important things than furthering trade efforts. Like researching astronomical anomalies, creating new spells, teaching students, or in the employ of a ruler as their court wizard (in which case they could be doing any of the above, or working on the defense of the realm.)
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Have you even seen what a dinosaur of that size does to a fine pair of shoes in a single day's march? Ears right through them in no time! Pretty much just turns them into garbage.
But...but...dinosaurs don't have ears. And why would they wear boots on their heads?
I find it far more likely that you would have a small group of highly trained wizards cooperating than a much larger group of merchants.
The wizards have more to gain from cooperation, and should be quite alot more intelligent.
So, it's MUCH more likely that there will be a wizard's guild than a merchants' guild. And it will be more powerful as well, because magic.
So, even if the teleportation makes sense at current prices, the monopoly possessed by the wizard's guild will just raise prices.
Which is how I solved the problem in my world. Only kings and princes could afford to teleport places.
And anti-teleportation spells were quite common, a standard defense the way that city walls are standard.
All of these "wizards can break the universe" threads assume one thing:
That nothing in the multiverse is more important to a wizard powerful enough to confront demon lords than the price of tea in China.
I can assure you, most of the time, if you've got that much power, you have bigger fish to fry than a merchant's league.
Or indeed, you're planning to literally fry the merchant's league. A few well-placed fireballs are easier than all that messing around with crafting footwear for giant animals ;)
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Money never stops being useful in Pathfinder. More money = more magic = more power for dealing demon said demon lords.
What is with the wizard stereotyping in this thread?
What is with the brachiosaur stereotyping in this threat?
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Money never stops being useful in Pathfinder. More money = more magic = more power for dealing demon said demon lords.
While true, there are a lot better things for a 12th level or higher Wizard to do to get money than undercut shipping prices via a large and expensive to feed animal and several magic items that are useless to you otherwise.
Gates. Gates are the way to export/import merchandise between cities.
No need a bunch of high level wizards constantly teleporting stuff. Just a few high up wiz who build gates once. That is much more cost effective.
Now the game is about guarding those gates, who gets to use them, the quantity of goods one merchant can send through a gate, sabotage, invasion...
Doesnt pathfinder society basically already have a network of teleportation circles between the various lodges? I know the dont use it for merchantry, but they do use it for basic transport of their dudes. I think it was called the "hao jin tapestry".
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Relative expenses aside, a river barge floating down the Nile is actually a much better tool for trading grain than a 10th level sorcerer with teleport and a portable hole.Sure. But a sorcerer with teleport and a portable hole, within the core rules, could transfer more tea from India to England in a year than the entire Dutch East India Company did in the same time frame.
If you want long distance trade in your game to be handled via physical means, which is paramount for any game themed around seafaring or pirates or the like, then you must nerf teleport in some way. There's no getting around it. Otherwise, nothing is transported by ship, and there's nothing to "pirate" in the first place.
A portable hole can carry what, 282.74 cubic feet? That's roughly the same amount as a vessel with a tonnage of 8. Your average carrack has around 80-100.
So assuming this powerful 10th level sorcerer wants to risk a 6% chance each 1000 mile trip (it's greater than that at first, but we're assuming he eventually gets particular waypoints up to studied carefully) to bounce back and forth every day between Point A and Point B, while doing a ton of physical labor in transferring tea into a portable hole and unloading it out of the hole, he could, in theory, move more tea than a ship.
To go from London to China is 6 trips. 12 teleports for a round trip. Looking at the NPC Codex, a 10th level sorc has 4 5th level spells per day. 3 days for a round trip, at a tonnage of 8. In a month, he could move as much as a carrack does in a single trip. He's also teleported 120 times, suffering approximately 1.2 mishaps, ended up in a thematically similar area 2.4 times (which might be out of range for his next teleport) and ended up off target 3.6 times.
He could do good business for himself, sure. He's not going to monopolize the tea trade though.
Sailing ship
Ship cost: 10k
Carrying capacity: 150 tons
crew 20
Speed 50 miles/day
Cost/ton 15ton/k
Cost/day 40 GP
trip time 40 days
trip cost 1600 GPBrachiosaurus: 9k GP
Heavy lift belt (saddle): 2k GP x2
Mule back chords: 1k
clear spindle: 4k
total: 16k
carrying capacity: 240 tons
crew 1 + spell casting
speed 2000/day
cost/ton 15ton/k
cost/day 10th level teleportation x2= 1000 GP + 10 GP animal handler
I'm going to say that they don't make pooper-scoopers that can accommodate what a brachiosaurus leaves behind. You think the fine is stiff for not picking up after your dog? Man, you don't want to be the guy with a pet brachiosaurus.
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Doesnt pathfinder society basically already have a network of teleportation circles between the various lodges? I know the dont use it for merchantry, but they do use it for basic transport of their dudes. I think it was called the "hao jin tapestry".
This is actually not true in default Golarion, only in PFS organized play, where it's necessary given the area-hopping nature of said organized play. For the record.
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Doesnt pathfinder society basically already have a network of teleportation circles between the various lodges? I know the dont use it for merchantry, but they do use it for basic transport of their dudes. I think it was called the "hao jin tapestry".This is actually not true in default Golarion, only in PFS organized play, where it's necessary given the area-hopping nature of said organized play. For the record.
I could have sworn it has been mentioned in an adventure path or two.
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I could have sworn it has been mentioned in an adventure path or two.Doesnt pathfinder society basically already have a network of teleportation circles between the various lodges? I know the dont use it for merchantry, but they do use it for basic transport of their dudes. I think it was called the "hao jin tapestry".This is actually not true in default Golarion, only in PFS organized play, where it's necessary given the area-hopping nature of said organized play. For the record.
Y'know, I could've sworn I saw something on this, but I'm not finding it now. Maybe I'm just crazy.
Generally a wizard has to go somewhere to study a local before he can teleport there. (I do not believe in scry and teleport)
Most Wizards are not going to spend years traveling to distant locations just so they can become a cargo hauler for a commoner.
As to permanent teleportation circles (let's just call them portals) they instantly become the focus of any nearby government. They would allow for instant invasion by outside forces and thus would require a large military to control. Think stargate. No city or country would allow such to exist outside of their control..
Thus the gate would need to be secret, a pretty hard secret to keep when rare stuff keeps showing up, or under gov control.
This is actually not true in default Golarion, only in PFS organized play, where it's necessary given the area-hopping nature of said organized play. For the record.
I thought the world presented in Pathfinder Society WAS the default Golarion (and vice versa). Where does it say otherwise?
Most Wizards are not going to spend years traveling to distant locations just so they can become a cargo hauler for a commoner.
Most wizards might not do something like that, but only one needs to.
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This is actually not true in default Golarion, only in PFS organized play, where it's necessary given the area-hopping nature of said organized play. For the record.I thought the world presented in Pathfinder Society WAS the default Golarion (and vice versa). Where does it say otherwise?
Well, James Jacobs mentions it here, as well as several other places, and his opinions are controlling on this issue. It's not exactly that the worlds are different, just that nothing from PFS is canon as having occurred.
Still not finding anything on the Tapestry specifically, though, so looks like I was misremembering there.
All of these "wizards can break the universe" threads assume one thing . . . .
Yes. That if you have the ability to bend reality and the motivation to keep doing so until you bend bigger portions of reality, you're ambitious enough to keep doing that, and smart enough or lucky enough to have not died getting this far.
Generally a wizard has to go somewhere to study a local before he can teleport there. (I do not believe in scry and teleport) . . . .
Just because you don't believe it, doesn't not make it a thing.
A few musings...
Not as effective as the dinosaur, but much cheaper, would be a sylvan sorcerer with a mastodon animal companion. Take that feat that adds to your animal companion level, natural bond I think. Add the first attribute increase to intelligence for an intelligence of 3 to circumvent a few issues. By the time you can teleport, your animal is large size with a strength of 25. Cast enlarge person and bull strength by way of the share spells feature. That makes it huge size with a strength of 31. Carrying is x6 for huge. So that's a max of 1840 lbs. increased to 11,040 lbs. for a huge sized quadruped. Not awesome, but no money is spent at this point.
If you go ahead and have muleback cords and the heavyload belt, strength becomes 39 for lifting and x3 to weight. I'd go for a variant animal collar of sustenance rather than the spindle. (Strength 39 = 16,800 lbs., x6 Huge = 100,800 lbs., x3 Ant Haul belt = 302,400 lbs. or 151.2 short tons or 131.2 metric tons) It won't really work unless you have items or features that sub in for the strength boost and size increase, due to the fact it would take longer to load the beast than the spells last. The first level in mammoth rider gives the size increase and a +2 bonus to strength, but you'd lose a caster level, and thou shalt not lose caster levels... a straight sorcerer doesn't qualify until level 12 due to the BAB requirement.
Share spells lets the intelligent animal be the origination of the teleport spell.
You can't use Natural Bond/Animal Companion to improve an animal's intelligence via hit dice.
An Animal that gains an Int of 3 gains sentience and becomes a magical beast. Since it is no longer an animal, it is no longer eligible for natural bond/animal companion, and you get to start the process all over.
Ergo, you can't do it.
==Aelryinth
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You can't use Natural Bond/Animal Companion to improve an animal's intelligence via hit dice.
An Animal that gains an Int of 3 gains sentience and becomes a magical beast. Since it is no longer an animal, it is no longer eligible for natural bond/animal companion, and you get to start the process all over.
Ergo, you can't do it.
==Aelryinth
That doesn't seem to be the case in Pathfinder (at least not anymore). There was a blog post from March 29, 2011 about the effects of increasing intelligence in animals. If there was a later change that reversed this, please let me know and accept my apologies - I didn't find anything on a quick search. Here's the part of the blog that I think governs this:
Note that while the monster guidelines talk about a maximum Int for an animal, this only applies to the creation process. Giving an animal a higher Intelligence score does not somehow transform it into a magical beast, unless the effect says otherwise, such as in the case of awaken. Animals can grow to have an Int higher than 2 through a variety of means, but they should not, as a general rule, be created that way.
The short answer: Volume. There are many more people in a typical game world that can afford a merchant ship than wizards both willing and able to use teleport (or create a magic item that can teleport).
Yeah, a 9th level wizard who wants to be a merchant can do so fairly easily. However, not everyone who wants to be a merchant is a 9th level wizard.
You can't use Natural Bond/Animal Companion to improve an animal's intelligence via hit dice.
An Animal that gains an Int of 3 gains sentience and becomes a magical beast. Since it is no longer an animal, it is no longer eligible for natural bond/animal companion, and you get to start the process all over.
Ergo, you can't do it.
==Aelryinth
That doesn't seem to be the case in Pathfinder (at least not anymore). There was a blog post from March 29, 2011 about the effects of increasing intelligence in animals. If there was a later change that reversed this, please let me know and accept my apologies - I didn't find anything on a quick search. Here's the part of the blog that I think governs this:
Note that while the monster guidelines talk about a maximum Int for an animal, this only applies to the creation process. Giving an animal a higher Intelligence score does not somehow transform it into a magical beast, unless the effect says otherwise, such as in the case of awaken. Animals can grow to have an Int higher than 2 through a variety of means, but they should not, as a general rule, be created that way.
Thank you, Wyntr. I don't know that I would have the wherewithal to dig it up, but yes, Aelryinth, an animal companion can use the +1 attribute bump every four levels to increase intelligence in Pathfinder. Or one could also swap your 1st level human bonus feat for Eye for Talent and have an animal companion start with an intelligence of 4, not that there's any real difference between 3 and 4 for animals.
. . . Yeah, a 9th level wizard who wants to be a merchant can do so fairly easily. However, not everyone who wants to be a merchant is a 9th level wizard.
I'm not really sure why, but it drove our GM batty during downtime in a Kingmaker game that we made as many continual lights as he allowed for public works, wall of stone for roads, and fabricate to outfit npc warriors in the military with masterwork weapons and armor.
So we're just discussing the Tippyverse now?. . .
I don't know. I kind of figured that's the directions most games took, and why most storytellers I know decide to change games around level 10. Maybe I've just been playing E10 and nobody told me.
There's less motivation in a 3.5/Pathfinder game to stay in your tower and research the secrets of the universe. You can't actually learn any of said secrets/magic without overcoming some sort of challenge, which then lets you unlock additional spells/slots/feats, which means the secluded master doesn't really exist. It's now almost exclusively the learn by doing concept so common in martial arts stories where a student puts together a style secret/understands the deeper technique when he's genuinely threatened.
I kind of like the teleporting wooly mammoth. It makes me smile. It also makes me think of silt striders. But it's just a thought exercise at this point. If I actually played such a sorcerer in game, I know my character would have more important things he's supposed to accomplish.
