In the scenario outlined earlier I assumed national circles, not cross-country ones. However, even if you had international teleportation circles --> teleportation circles can be dismissed at will. If one is in danger of being captured by an invading enemy, simply dismiss it.
That said, it sounds like a very interesting campaign setting.
It worked out pretty well, but I had to end it because how can you top a showdown with an enemy operative trying to gain control of a clockwork colossus factory culminating in a giant robot vs giant robot fight in the middle of a city? Every "missed" cannon shot leveled a slum tenement. If the PCs failed hundreds of mostly complete clockwork constructs would have fallen into enemy hands.
As for dismissing the circles, yeah, problem was the casters who made them were not on site to monitor them (or long dead). They were important court officials and had better things to do. You can do a lot of damage with a few minutes of free access to a teleportation circle.
Those circles were also internal national ones, but they are still a security risk. Heck the road that rome build for internal trade and military logistics ended up being used as invasion routes.
An international circle network is just suicidal IMHO. You can't disable it from the receiving end. If you do use them that way you need to have some sort of embassy on the sending end so you can control access and disable it in the face of undesired access.
As for dismissing the circles, yeah, problem was the casters who made them were not on site to monitor them (or long dead). They were important court officials and had better things to do. You can do a lot of damage with a few minutes of free access to a teleportation circle.
If the caster was dead I can see how it was a problem, but how is an invasion not important enough to take up the 20 seconds or so it would take to dismiss a teleportation circle?
Those circles were also internal national ones, but they are still a security risk. Heck the road that rome build for internal trade and military logistics ended up being used as invasion routes.
An international circle network is just suicidal IMHO. You can't disable it from the receiving end. If you do use them that way you need to have some sort of embassy on the sending end so you can control access and disable it in the face of undesired access.
How is this different from just casting Teleportation Circle for the express purpose of an invasion? Like I said earlier, teleportation circles are likely to create an arms race since once one nation has the ability to drop an army anywhere, all the nations are going to want, at the very least, the capacity to provide a retaliatory strike through a scroll of teleport circle or the like.
Teleportation circles would be strategic targets on an equal level with a pass through the mountains or a river that leads to the capital - I would expect both sides of a teleportation circle to feature some defenses. An embassy at the very least, most likely something more defensive. I'd also design the teleportation "arrival" room in such a way that I could easily alter it - say, by removing the floor or lowering a stone block on to the circle.
If the room is longer a viable target for Greater Teleport, the teleportation circle would be disabled until the room is changed back to its original form.
Now that's an interesting way of disabling a circle...simply rig the destination with a collapsing floor, and it won't work until the floor is back.
hah! You could simply make the destination the lid of a very large pit. You couldn't use the network unless you controlled both ends of it.
And as I've reiterated, easily usable defenses against random teleportation would be among the first things any sane government would put into effect if they want to stay in power.
==Aelryinth
In the scenario outlined earlier I assumed national circles, not cross-country ones. However, even if you had international teleportation circles --> teleportation circles can be dismissed at will. If one is in danger of being captured by an invading enemy, simply dismiss it.
That said, it sounds like a very interesting campaign setting.
You have to be within range of the spell effect to dismiss it, it cannot be done remotely. In the case of Teleportation Circle, range is 0ft, or, directly on top of the circle.
Being right in the middle of whatever invading magical forces were powerful enough to seize teleportation circles, and overcome their guards of formidable fixed defenses manned by the most powerful military assets of a high-magic empire, is probably not even a 17th level wizard's idea of a good time.
Sounds like a pretty high intensity high level escort adventure in the making, though, although it might need some refining.
You have to be within range of the spell effect to dismiss it, it cannot be done remotely. In the case of Teleportation Circle, range is 0ft, or, directly on top of the circle.
Being right in the middle of whatever invading magical forces were powerful enough to seize teleportation circles, and overcome their guards of formidable fixed defenses manned by the most powerful military assets of a high-magic empire, is probably not even a 17th level wizard's idea of a good time.
Sounds like a pretty high intensity high level escort adventure in the making, though.
Like I said, ideally you'd dismiss the circle "if it was in danger of falling" - you'd need to have enough fortifications to hold the enemy off for the brief period of time it would take the original creator to arrive and dismiss it. A bit like how embassies will destroy code books and sensitive documents if they're worried the embassy will be invaded. If an area is considered "hostile" they could also preemptively close the circle, akin to how some modern nations will call back their embassies if they feel it is at risk.
If the attackers blitz the circle too fast for the caster to arrive and disable it in time, they'd instead alter the arrival point to disable the circle, as I describe above. Making a major alteration to the arrival area would make the circle fail.
In order to penetrate the defenses the attacking force would have to:
A. Penetrate and overwhelm the defending force before they have a chance to send a message or pass through the circle themselves (requiring a move action)
B. Send an invasion force through the gate large enough to overwhelm all the defenses on the other side of the circle, which would be a teleport nexus - ie heavily defended.
C. Disable whatever contraption is used to alter the room to ensure the continued use of the circle- which would typically be activated in the first round after arrival.
Granted it's not entirely impossible, but it is a fairly hefty amount of coordination and overwhelming force needed.
For maximum security or a gate that was in a "risky neighborhood" I'd keep a schedule with random delivery times and keep the room "altered" permanently, only changing it back to its original configuration when I know there is a shipment incoming.
Honestly when I look at that plan I see a great way to assassinate 17th level wizards, but maybe that's because I just tend to think of a 17th level wizard as actually a much higher value military asset than even a teleportation circle, and thus, see any SOP that allows a relatively accurate prediction of his presence and sequence of actions in an enemy-controlled location to be pure tactical gold.
However, from a purely guerrilla viewpoint, figuring out that the enemy's SOP response to a credible threat against their extremely expensive permanent teleportation circles is to press the self-destruct button, also provides a good route to bleeding their resources via even simple hit and run attacks, false alarms, etc. The chance to set a trap for the wizard responsible would be gravy.
Honestly when I look at that plan I see a great way to assassinate 17th level wizards, but maybe that's because I just tend to think of a 17th level wizard as actually a much higher value military asset than even a teleportation circle, and thus, see any SOP that allows a relatively accurate prediction of his presence and sequence of actions in an enemy-controlled location to be pure tactical gold.
That is an excellent point, and I entirely agree with you that a 17th level spellcaster is a much more valuable strategic resource than a teleportation ring.
However, from a purely guerrilla viewpoint, figuring out that the enemy's SOP response to a credible threat against their extremely expensive permanent teleportation circles is to press the self-destruct button, also provides a good route to bleeding their resources via even simple hit and run attacks, false alarms, etc. The chance to set a trap for the wizard responsible would be gravy.
There are a couple of factors here:
Firstly, dismissing the circle and simply altering the arrival room essentially have the same function - in either case the circle is rendered nonfunctional. I envision dismissing the circle as a more permanent solution where it's clear the defense point is going to fall or the outpost no longer serves a purpose, while if it's more of a temporary setback or if they're in a hurry I'd simply alter the arrival room and stop it that way.Secondly, if this destination point has a two-way circle, that's a defensible position with essentially unlimited reinforcements. Even if you do manage to capture the garrison the circle is rendered useless and I can more or less guarantee that attacking a strongly manned defensive position you'll lose more men than the defending force.
I apologize for my somewhat disjointed way of writing this - I'm essentially brainstorming as I go. I expect an 17th level wizard with an intelligence score in the mid thirties and enough ranks in Knowledge X to memorize every battle that ever was would be able to predicate and counter rather more effectively than I can.
Edit: Discovered this while doing a little bit of reading on teleportation spells to make sure I have my ducks in a row - a permanent teleportation circle + teleportation trap = redirect your circle to teleporting anywhere in the world for a 7th level spell slot and 100 gp in materials.
Excellent way to cheaply send off expeditions or multiple armies directed at different targets.
The problem with relying on wizards for cargo transport is that you are basically handing an entire's fleet's worth of valuable to someone that you know for a fact can alter their appearance and teleport anywhere in the world virtually at will. So, uh, I hope you carry insurance on your cargo.
There are a couple of factors here:
Firstly, dismissing the circle and simply altering the arrival room essentially have the same function - in either case the circle is rendered nonfunctional.
Hm.
I will also add that, since the goal of the opposing force was to degrade the teleportation network, amputating and cauterizing threatened routes is kind of like quitting so you don't risk being fired. I think an aggressive defense probably has more to offer than any sort of scorched-earth tactics, but the existence of the latter limits the former (who is going to rush into battle on the other side of the portal if they know your SOP when things get hairy is to destroy the retreat path?)
I also suspect you probably need to do a fair amount of alteration to render a circle inoperative. Closer to knocking down the walls than to rearranging the furniture. "So completely altered as to be unfamiliar to you" is a fairly high bar before the destination will fail.
Edit: Discovered this while doing a little bit of reading on teleportation spells to make sure I have my ducks in a row - a permanent teleportation circle + teleportation trap = redirect your circle to teleporting anywhere in the world for a 7th level spell slot and 100 gp in materials.
I admit to not seeing this one. Teleportation trap can only redirect teleportation to a different point within the warded area.
I will also add that, since the goal of the opposing force was to degrade the teleportation network, amputating and cauterizing threatened routes is kind of like quitting so you don't risk being fired. I think an aggressive defense probably has more to offer than any sort of scorched-earth tactics, but the existence of the latter limits the former (who is going to rush into battle on the other side of the portal if they know your SOP when things get hairy is to destroy the retreat path?)
That's a fair point. The point on disabling circles was mainly because there were numerous concerns that creating a teleportation circle network "would pose a major security risk" for the nation it is placed within. In my opinion teleportation circles pose a minor security risk at best since they can be countered very quickly.
I'd say the enemy would be better off casting teleportation circles of their own instead of trying to piggyback off your network.
I also suspect you probably need to do a fair amount of alteration to render a circle inoperative. Closer to knocking down the walls than to rearranging the furniture. "So completely altered as to be unfamiliar to you" is a fairly high bar before the destination will fail.
The example I used earlier was to collapse the floor underneath the arrival point or drop a slab of stone on top of the circle - both quick operations that in my opinion would either alter the area significantly or remove the room entirely.
Edit: Discovered this while doing a little bit of reading on teleportation spells to make sure I have my ducks in a row - a permanent teleportation circle + teleportation trap = redirect your circle to teleporting anywhere in the world for a 7th level spell slot and 100 gp in materials.I admit to not seeing this one. Teleportation trap can only redirect teleportation to a different point within the warded area.
That's what I get for posting at 2 AM. I missed "redirecting all teleportation into or out of the area to a specific point within the area determined by you at the time of casting". Disregard that one.
A adventure path actually takes teleport security seriously:
I'm not one for saying a setting must be logical or internally consistent but if you do set up a network of teleport circles it won't just change trade it will change society greatly.
Think like this:
Why do 90% or so of us live in cities today when 300 years ago 90% of us lived rurally in small towns and villages?
The answer is trains and then refrigeration made it possible to grow food 1000 miles away and it would still be good when it arrived at market. You no longer needed to live close to your food evenly spread out across the country.
A teleport network does the same thing. Now there is no reason to live in the country. Small farms would soon be replaced by giant mega farms tied directly to a city's teleporter. Most of the countryside would soon be abandoned as the population poured into giant likely wall surrounded mega cities. There are monsters out there after all. The owners of the circles become masters of life and death able to cut off food and likely water.
Soon you are playing Judge Dread not Pathfinder.
You'd still have a huge rural population because growing food is more labor intensive back then.
Without the ability to get it from farms to the LOCAL city(ies) with great speed, you'll actually end up with a system that caters to expensive, very non-local foods being available, and being able to ship some commodities to the big cities by other then wagons. You'll put some drovers out of business, and make sure railroads aren't invented.
You still, however, need the same amount of people to grow the food as before. And that's going to remain true until mechanization starts pulling people off farms as labor is multiplied. You'll save some on freshness, but all that does is move the delivery date, it doesn't make a massive effect in overall quantity.
The biggest thing driving consolidation of farms was the family tractor and the combine, when one guy with a John Deere could do the plow-work of dozens of farmers.
==Aelryinth
Of course if we're really going into Tippyville, providing unlimited food is trivially easy.
Actually, I thought it worked out to be fairly expensive, unless you routinely tote around 000's of Gp worth of magical gear routinely.
I mean, isn't the breakpoint for Rings of Sustenance vs buying your food daily something like 30 years?
==Aelryinth
I was thinking about Create Food & Water traps, actually. They break even after ~2 months, anything after that is pure savings.
The main benefit of the sustenance ring is the short resting time, I don't think that many players get excited about not needing to eat.
Edit: Voops, I forgot normal creatures typically have three meals a day, not one. Food traps will break even in about two weeks, not two months.
Who is making these traps? Are they statted up somewhere? Or are you simply abusing the Wondrous Item spell/cl/uses per day?
==Aelryinth
Any 5th level cleric with the craft wondrous item feat. I'll even link the relevant rules. Scroll down to "cost modifiers for magic device traps".
An automatically resetting trap of Create Food & Water would cost 500 * 5 (Caster level) * 3 (spell level) = 7 500 GP, and would create enough food to feed 15 people every 10 minutes, or 2160 people per day.
A poor meal costs 1 SP, the typical creature will need 3 meals per day. So 2160 SP * 3 = 6480 SP saved per day, or 648 GP. The trap's cost is equal to their food bill for about... 12 days.
You can do the same thing with quite a few spells to make your day more convenient - Prestidigitation (500 * 1 * .5 = 250GP) traps would make for an excellent washing machine/dishwasher, CLW (500 GP) and Remove Disease (7500 GP) traps can save you quite a bit of money on hospitals and so on.
. . . Soon you are playing Judge Dread not Pathfinder.
Why... Yes you are! To be honest, it's pretty awesome. However, it not to everyone's tastes, and that's fine, too.
Onto what Kudaku said about Tippyville/Tippyverse, any campaign world would naturally run in that direction if it took magic seriously as a way to run a nation.
However I generally speculate that such a nation or world will have its citizens be eventually as lazy as the bees near the end of "Bee Movie" resting by a pool as the mages engage in Cold War. Eventually everyone would get bored engaging in such ways and revert back to functioning as low fantasy town.
Either that or the king executes anyone who comes up with ideas like practical uses for Teleportation Circles or Create Food and Water traps.
Any 5th level cleric with the craft wondrous item feat. I'll even link the relevant rules. Scroll down to "cost modifiers for magic device traps".
An automatically resetting trap of Create Food & Water would cost 500 * 5 (Caster level) * 3 (spell level) = 7 500 GP, and would create enough food to feed 15 people every 10 minutes, or 2160 people per day.
A poor meal costs 1 SP, the typical creature will need 3 meals per day. So 2160 SP * 3 = 6480 SP saved per day, or 648 GP. The trap's cost is equal to their food bill for about... 12 days.
You can do the same thing with quite a few spells to make your day more convenient - Prestidigitation (500 * 1 * .5 = 250GP) traps would make for an excellent washing machine/dishwasher, CLW (500 GP) and Remove Disease (7500 GP) traps can save you quite a bit of money on hospitals and so on.
OH! So you are abusing the rules, and ignoring the first rule, which is look at items of similar power and price accordingly.
Gotcha. Not to put a fine point on it, but ignoring the first rule of item creation in favor of the last isn't a strong point in your favor.
Kindly note that your traps do not work at the price you have set for them. There are many items in PF that make food, and none of them are quite as cheap as you are making them out to be.
==Aelryinth
You go right on ahead believing that :).
Find an item in print that does what you claim at the price you are claiming and you have an argument.
There are MANY published items that make food. None are that cheap. And if you look in the item creation rules, that's guideline #1.
Using 'traps' to do what you are doing is directly akin to Cure Light Wounds Rings and True Strike swords...ignoring the first rule in favor of the last as being to your advantage.
'Traps' alone breaks anything, as low cost spam will. A 'Cure Light Wounds' trap designed as a weapon against undead is an infinite healing machine. Using cheap spam to break the game while ignoring similar items is a classic munchkin tactic. Please don't use it. There's plenty of legitimate ways to break the game without resorting to such things.
==Aelryinth
Find an item in print that does what you claim at the price you are claiming and you have an argument.
There are MANY published items that make food. None are that cheap. And if you look in the item creation rules, that's guideline #1.
Using 'traps' to do what you are doing is directly akin to Cure Light Wounds Rings and True Strike swords...ignoring the first rule in favor of the last as being to your advantage.
'Traps' alone breaks anything, as low cost spam will. A 'Cure Light Wounds' trap designed as a weapon against undead is an infinite healing machine. Using cheap spam to break the game while ignoring similar items is a classic munchkin tactic. Please don't use it. There's plenty of legitimate ways to break the game without resorting to such things.
==Aelryinth
If making a magical trap is abusing the magic item creation rules then how are there any magical traps at all? By your logic the magic traps listed in the Core Rulebook are violations, except they cant be because they are canon traps created by the developers. The truth is traps have entirely different creation guidelines and unfortunately when applied logically they utterly destroy any notion of the typical fantasy setting.
I really don't see any point in debating it with you, Ryinth. You can google it if you wish, the concept's been around for a few years now and is perfectly RAW-legal.
That said, I'd never use it in my own campaigns. It's one of the fairly numerous things that if played straight will dramatically change your campaign setting.
RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
|
Aelrynth, I'm surprised you've been around as long as you have and this is your first exposure to "beneficial" traps cheese.
It's clearly a violation of RAI to create traps that aren't meant as penalties when set off, and it's pretty disingenous to claim that the whole trap design system is invalid if you forbid traps that don't hinder/hurt things.
Using "traps" to create food or provide infinite healing isn't applying the trap rules "logically" it's twisting them into a place they weren't intended to go.
Kudaku, I'd opine so few people actually allow "helping traps" that using them in your argument only weakens it. I know I think less of anyone that takes the idea of a create food and water trap seriously.
it's pretty disingenous to claim that the whole trap design system is invalid if you forbid traps that don't hinder/hurt things.
I don't think that's what he claimed. Aelryinth claimed that traps are broken because they're cheaper than magic items that create similar effects - however this is true for ALL magical traps. Traps use a completely different rules set from magical items, and has completely different cost formulas. Arguing that magical traps should be priced like magical items would invalidate every magical trap in the game.
Kudaku, I'd opine so few people actually allow "helping traps" that using them in your argument only weakens it. I know I think less of anyone that takes the idea of a create food and water trap seriously.
I take beneficial traps seriously in the sense that there's nothing in the rules that actually disallows them. Unlike the create magical rules there's no guideline telling you to evaluate traps - they just present the formula and tell you to base the price on that. It's one of the topics that needs GM intervention to avoid having your players break the campaign world in half or leave a gaping hole in the internal consistency of the setting. Food traps are a part of the same topic as "why do people use traditional shipping when teleportation's a thing", just higher up on the scale.
I'd also note that I mentioned them in relation to the Tippyverse references earlier in the thread - I've repeatedly said that beneficial traps are not RAI, and that I do not use or allow them in my campaigns. That doesn't change the fact that they're perfectly RAW-legal.
Traps have been abused since the trapsmith back in 3.5. The concept is a minimum of 8 years old.
It always, always gets shut down by the 'similar magic item' which is Rule #1 of all magic item creation. Because there's bunches of items that make food, and none of them are priced as cheaply as you can by taking the CWI rules and trying to do the same.
it's no different then using Mage Armor 5t/day instead of bracers +4...the Mage Armor is much cheaper using CWI rules. But the rules say you use similar items FIRST.
Ditto the Ring of Cure Light Wounds 1/rd, and the True Strike sword.
Your argument of 'sending the rules where they aren't meant to go' is very, very, very much abused by the munchkins using the above classics, and they immediately fixated on traps to do the same, thinking that somehow these get around the same rules.
If you want a Create Water 'trap', you go to the Decanter of Endless Water for a price comparison.
If you want a Create Food trap, you go to the various cornucopia-style stuff that make food. Those are items doing exactly the same thing, in print, and that's where you price it.
What I'm surprised is that you all are still trying to use the clxSl*cheap spam of the CWI rules to make items and declare them 'perfectly RAW'. Because the rules repeatedly cite that doing so is the very LAST method you want to use, precisely for this reason.
Heck, the magic item book specifically points out this kind of reasoning and the flaw in it.
So, no, citing RAW isn't going to work, because RAW quite specifically has prior guidelines you are ignoring.
Not to mention, calling something that makes food and water a 'trap' makes no sense, but when you value all level 1 spells the same and make no difference between offensive and other types, this is what you get...
==Aelryinth
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Traps have been abused since the trapsmith back in 3.5. The concept is a minimum of 8 years old.
Indeed. So you'd really think that someone would have gone to the trouble of putting an extra line in the trap rules to stop that kind of shenanigans - as it is now I have to do it myself, and many new GMs won't realize the potential for brokenness until they're up to their necks in it.
It always, always gets shut down by the 'similar magic item' which is Rule #1 of all magic item creation. Because there's bunches of items that make food, and none of them are priced as cheaply as you can by taking the CWI rules and trying to do the same.
it's no different then using Mage Armor 5t/day instead of bracers +4...the Mage Armor is much cheaper using CWI rules. But the rules say you use similar items FIRST.
Ditto the Ring of Cure Light Wounds 1/rd, and the True Strike sword.
Your argument of 'sending the rules where they aren't meant to go' is very, very, very much abused by the munchkins using the above classics, and they immediately fixated on traps to do the same, thinking that somehow these get around the same rules.
The guidelines you're referring to are specifically for creating magic items - not creating traps. You might as well use that guideline for arguing that scimitars shouldn't be 25% cheaper than rapiers since they both deal the same damage.
If you want a Create Water 'trap', you go to the Decanter of Endless Water for a price comparison.
A "create water" item should in fact not be priced similarly to the decanter of endless water since the decanter offers significant extra utility in the form of the Geysir mode that an item that simply creates water does not. A better comparison would be the goblet of quenching, priced at 180 gp. If you want the item to create water with no charge limitation I'd personally price it somewhere inbetween the two, around 1-2000 GP or so. However this is all irrelevant. A trap is neither a decanter or a goblet, or indeed a magical item as defined by the game. It's a trap.
What I'm surprised is that you all are still trying to use the clxSl*cheap spam of the CWI rules to make items and declare them 'perfectly RAW'. Because the rules repeatedly cite that doing so is the very LAST method you want to use, precisely for this reason.
I'm not using the "clxslxcheap spam of the CWI rules" - I'm using the trap design guidelines, which I linked previously. If you'd actually checked the math, they use different formulas. If you took the time to look up and compare the formulas you'd see they're different specifically because traps are meant to be cheaper than magical items with similar effects. For instance an automatically resetting fireball trap costs 7 500 GP. An item of Command Word fireball with no charge limitation would cost ~30 000 GP. Which is as it should be since magic items come with advantages traps do not.
Heck, the magic item book specifically points out this kind of reasoning and the flaw in it.
Feel free to quote the section where it explains how the magic item guideline includes traps.
Not to mention, calling something that makes food and water a 'trap' makes no sense, but when you value all level 1 spells the same and make no difference between offensive and other types, this is what you get...
Finally something we agree on! The trap rules should have been designed in a way that limited traps to being, y'nkow, traps rather than vending machines for every spell under the sun. As it stands right now "dispenser" traps are one of the biggest RAW-legal loopholes in Pathfinder.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
You'd still have a huge rural population because growing food is more labor intensive back then...
You still, however, need the same amount of people to grow the food as before. And that's going to remain true until mechanization starts pulling people off farms as labor is multiplied....
The biggest thing driving consolidation of farms was the family tractor and the combine, when one guy with a John Deere could do the plow-work of dozens of farmers.
==Aelryinth
Actually, not quite. The consolidation of farms, the so called enclosure movement, began long before tractors. In fact by the early to mid 1700's generations before trains and way over a hundred years before tractors. Simple human and animal powered agricultural improvements combined with canals and better roads fueled increased production and the early move to cities from the country...
but since we are talking about a world with an instantaneous transport system, how long before unseen servants are doing all of the farm work???
Once you go down that rabbit hole there is no stopping, which is why most game worlds don't go there. Not because it isn't logical but because it does not create the world most people want to play in.
Actually, not quite. The consolidation of farms, the so called enclosure movement, began long before tractors. In fact by the early to mid 1700's generations before trains and way over a hundred years before tractors. Simple human and animal powered agricultural improvements combined with canals and better roads fueled increased production and the early move to cities from the country...
but since we are talking about a world with an instantaneous transport system, how long before unseen servants are doing all of the farm work???
Once you go down that rabbit hole there is no stopping, which is why most game worlds don't go there. Not because it isn't logical but because it does not create the world most people want to play in.
I absolutely agree with this, and for the record I find Golarion an awesome setting and I feel no need to turn it into sci-fi or another genre. I just wish the system and/or setting would present some in-world explanations for why people aren't realizing any of the potential in things like permanent teleportation circles. I find that leaving incredible tools like permanency + teleportation circles in-setting and then completely ignoring the implications of those tools breaks my immersion pretty badly.
Kudaku,
The creation of magical traps requires the Use of Create Wondrous Item, which falls squarely under the magical item creation rules. The fact that the pricing is different means nothing, yet seems to be the basis of your argument. It's simply an addition to the magic item creation rules, yet you seem to think that suddenly means its exempt from all the OTHER rules?
There is no 'create magical trap' feat. It requires CWI, and falls under the 'similar pricing for effect.' And there's no way you can tell me that when you look at the effect, that a create water trap and create food trap aren't simply blatant ways to exploit pricing differences for doing the exact same thing as published items...which violates Rule #1.
==Aelryinth
this:
The creation of magical traps requires the Use of Create Wondrous Item
Does not translate to this:
which falls squarely under the magical item creation rules.
Craft Wondrous Items is a requirement for making magical traps. That does not make traps Wondrous Items. If you actually look at the two rules sets, items and traps are treated completely differently.
The formulas for calculating the cost of traps is completely different from the formulas for making items, as shown with the fireball trap earlier.You don't need to make a spellcraft check to make a trap. In fact there is no Spellcraft involved at all.
You can't speed up craft making - it takes 1 day per 500 gp, unlike magic items which can be sped up and uses a different time/cost ratio.
You can't sidestep spell requirements to make traps.
These are fundamental and crucial differences because they are completely independent rules systems. In Pathfinder Magic Traps do not equal Magic Items.
Applying the guidelines for custom magic items might be a viable idea for a GM who's unsure about items (though personally I don't think it's a very good idea, since the formulas suggest that the price differences between traps and items are intentional), but it certainly isn't RAW.
Mike Franke makes a solid point. It's the same reason that the geniuses in superhero comics don't use their mighty technical abilities to fix the world's problems; suddenly the setting would be science fiction, not superheroics. In this case the mechanism would be magic, not engineering, but the genre would feel more like sci-fi than fantasy. (Not a bad genre, just not what most groups play Pathfinder for.)
The 'Reed Richards is useless' is a known Trope.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ReedRichardsIsUseless
But while the consolidation of farms and gradual improvements in agriculture have been helping move things along, it isn't until mechanization is widespread that you start generating excess food and can support a working population.
For verification, just look at rural India, where the vast majority of farms are still tended by hand. Until they brought in genetically modified wheat that could grow in their conditions, India regularly used to face starvation. The challenge of bringing in water to pipe through fields and getting tractors instead of yaks to pull ploughs is still ongoing...but once it happens, villages just start to bloom. I mean, most of them water fields with buckets carried off the shoulders still!
China adding tractors pulled millions of Chinese out of their fields and into factories that are driving the present day economy. And this process is repeating all over the world in 3rd world countries advancing into 2nd world and wanting to become 1st world.
I.e. technique only goes so far if you are confined by animal and human labor to get things done. Unless there's major improvement in this area, you don't get regular crop surpluses, because people don't have the time to produce so much more then they can use for themselves.
That said, yeah, you can get much better production per acre then they were getting in the Middle Ages, no doubt. But you didn't get the huge one-family farms that are common nowadays until the last century (and we're not talking plantations with conscript level labor, either).
As for the unseen servants....well, remember that Nex uses undead to do rote field labor, though I have to wonder if the mindless undead are actually capable of doing more then dumping water. They wouldn't be able to weed very well, and you have to waste spellcasters to give them orders...but the fact remains they export a lot of food because so much of their population is undead.
Not too different from multiple unseen servants, in a way.
==Aelryinth
No, creating magical traps is a subset of Creating Wondrous Items.
The rules for creating traps are an additional set of rules under the magical creation guidelines thereby, not something completely independent, which you are trying to argue they are.
Trying to argue that magical traps are not magic items just isn't going to get you too far, Kudaku. And as magical items, they acknowledge the overarching rules under which all such things exist, i.e. similar effect trumps ClxSlxSpam every time. You seem to be making the case that the latter is pre-eminent on traps, which is clearly not the case.
You're trying very hard to argue that 'similar spell level = similar cost" when the rules clearly state that EFFECT and SIMILAR ITEM are the predominant rules.
Thus, pricing a Magic missile trap =/= pricing a create water trap. One is a fixed item dealing out minor damage to trespassers with unlimited charges...there is no similar item. The other is something that creates an unlimited amount of water, which is similar to the Decanter of Endless Water and so would be priced with that as the guideline, whether it was a trap, ring, sword, staff or anything else.
==Aelryinth
Let's look at the language for Craft Wondrous Items:
Benefit: You can create a wide variety of magic wondrous items. Crafting a wondrous item takes 1 day for each 1,000 gp in its price. To create a wondrous item, you must use up raw materials costing half of its base price. See the magic item creation rules in Magic Items for more information.
Wondrous items takes 1 day for each 1,000 GP in its price. Guess what? Traps don't.
Looking up the magic items creation rules, we find out that wondrous items require spellcraft checks. Guess what? Traps don't. In fact, traps aren't mentioned a single time in chapter 15 because they're in an entirely different chapter.
Looking up the custom magic items rules, we find formulas for calculating items that cast spells. Guess what? Trap formulas are completely different.
Like I said earlier, I really have no interest in trying to debate this further with you and I don't feel like sidetracking this thread into arguing trap rules. If you really want to get into the gritty details of it, I strongly suggest you do some googling on the topic - "Tippyverse" would be a good start.
The other is something that creates an unlimited amount of water, which is similar to the Decanter of Endless Water and so would be priced with that as the guideline, whether it was a trap, ring, sword, staff or anything else.
Again, unless the theoretical ring/sword/staff/whatever of creating water comes with a geysir mode, the decanter is a poor comparison.
Kudaku,
Creating traps takes the exact same time as any other magic item.
Look at the link you provided so thoughtfully more closely.
The Trap cost is 1 day per 500 gp of its COST, not its MARKET PRICE.
Which, actually, is the exact same number. It's just that some doofus tried not to be consistent and didn't use Price like every other calculation. Probably the same guy who goofed up on the staff pricing in the compendium...
And you're completely ignoring the fact that trap construction is simply an addition to the existing magic item construction options, which basically all exist under CWI. Come ON, man. Trying to argue they're completely independent of existing magic item rules is a waste of everyone's time. It's like arguing that because you created a new weapon, you can ignore all those that have come before...it's not going to fly.
And thank you, but Tippyverse is a trope that's been around for years, and this kind of munchkinny stuff was around on the WoTC boards for about fifteen years now. You're telling me to go read something that was generated by stuff I helped create and critique waaaaay back when. Char Ops boards at WoTC were interesting, back then.
----And wait, you're calling the decanter a poor comparison because it is MORE effective then your trap? That's it?
Did I ever say equal pricing? No? I said use as a guideline. ANd unlimited water spam is the idea, not the geyser mode. As a matter of fact, the second mode of slow pour is almost a PERFECT comparison. But, you're dismissing that, too, I see.
Eesh.
==Aelryinth
I had a big post typed up replying to your post but frankly I've already said I have no interest in debating this further with you. If it's important to you, feel free to send me a PM.
And seriously, drop the "Eesh" stuff. I'm trying very hard to remain polite and I expect you to do the same.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Ah! Fair enough. I think the reason why there is a mix of disagreements is because people are arguing two (or three or more) different variants of teleportation trade - boots, spellcaster, and circles. I believe each would impact the market differently.
I think my argument is actually a mix of those two: Excepting external house rules or GM intervention, there is, to the best of my knowledge, nothing present in Golarion that justifies a shipping market that is not dominated by teleportation magic.
To me personally, this contributes to breaking my suspension of disbelief.
I'm right with you.
If you had a world small enough that you could reach anywhere in it in less than a month by boat, then boats clearly dominate over teleport.
If you have a world as large as Earth, then teleport clearly dominates over boats.
I don't know squat about Golarion, and where it falls in that spectrum. I know for our game world, we wanted boats to dominate intercontinental trade, and we wanted our world large, so we made some reasonable adjustments to how teleport works. I don't think teleport trade is a universal problem. I think it is only a problem if your game world is large, and has oceans, and you are sticking with the core rules on magic prevalence, and you prefer vessel transportation to magic trade for bulk goods.
Unfortunately, I think a lot of game worlds fall inside that venn diagram.