Are rogues cheaper than other classes? Did rangers and bards become paid DLC at some point?
Are rogues cheaper than other classes? Did rangers and bards become paid DLC at some point?
In PFS alchemist is paid DLC. Bard archetypes are paid DLC. the Trap finder trait is paid DLC.
I have a friend who really likes Kmart brand shoes.
This does not make them superior shoes.
I do not, however, try to force him to wear other shoes.
He does not try to force me to admit they are superior shoes.
They are cheap, low quality shoes, but some people love them, and that's okay.
Well I do. You are not allowed to play fighters or rogues in my campaigns and monks get a serious but simple buff.
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They are cheap, low quality shoes, but some people love them, and that's okay.
What happens to me usually is someone goes on about how high quality a product is. Like that restaurant that uses canned goods. Its one thing to say you like it. Its another to not recognize it for what it is.
Are rogues cheaper than other classes? Did rangers and bards become paid DLC at some point?In PFS alchemist is paid DLC. Bard archetypes are paid DLC. the Trap finder trait is paid DLC.
Anything that is not in the CRB is "DLC".
I think the 'DLC' metaphor falls a bit short if you take the PRD and the PFSRD into account... Again, PFS is PFS and a very small minority of the total population playing Pathfinder.
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They are cheap, low quality shoes, but some people love them, and that's okay.What happens to me usually is someone goes on about how high quality a product is. Like that restaurant that uses canned goods. Its one thing to say you like it. Its another to not recognize it for what it is.
I see you understand.
Let´s compare builds. Someone post a build and i will try post a rogue build with equivalent power.Sure, I posted this one a while back. 20 point buy level 10.
For stealth he has a decent stealth skill for 10th level (+28) combined with invisibility and a range of movement types. Elemental Body lets him fly, sneak around underwater or simply walk through your walls. Gaseous Form and Dimension Door mean that almost nowhere is safe from entry. For spying on the enemy he also has Tongues so languages are never an issue or he can sit back and explore with Arcane Eye. ...
Wow! You have more gold worth of magical items than my entire party of six!
Just wondering, how can a sorcerer cast spells when you don't even have enough modifier for it? You have to have at least 11 cha to cast know and cast a level one spell. At least from core rule book it said so.
Wow! You have more gold worth of magical items than my entire party of six!
Just wondering, how can a sorcerer cast spells when you don't even have enough modifier for it? You have to have at least 11 cha to cast know and cast a level one spell. At least from core rule book it said so.
Sage Bloodline switches the casting stat to Int. As for his items, I imagine they follow the WBL guidelines for level 10.
He has Craft Wondrous Item which should give him another 25% wealth for his level.
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Let me see... An quick Inquisitor build to replace Rogues...
Male Half-Orc (Mystic) Inquisitor 10
CG Medium humanoid (human, orc)
Init +7; Senses darkvision 60 ft., scent; Perception +19
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Defense
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AC 22, touch 13, flat-footed 20 (+8 armor, +2 Dex, +1 natural, +1 deflection)
hp 78 (10d8+30)
Fort +13 (+4 vs. hot or cold environments and to resist damage from suffocation), Ref +8, Will +13
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Offense
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Speed 30 ft.
Melee +1 silversheen falchion +14/+9 (2d4+10/18-20/×2) and
. . +2 silversheen falchion +15/+10 (2d4+11/18-20/×2)
Ranged +1 composite longbow +11/+6 (1d8+5/19-20/×3)
Special Attacks bane, Judgement of Sacred Destruction +4, judgement of justice, judgement of piercing, judgement of smiting
Spell-Like Abilities
. . At will—detect alignment
. . 10 rounds/day—discern lies
Inquisitor Spells Known (CL 10th; concentration +13):
4th (1/day)—greater invisibility, freedom of movement
3rd (4/day)—protection from energy, dispel magic, heroism, burst of speed
2nd (5/day)—lesser restoration, tongues, silence (DC 15), invisibility, see invisibility
1st (6/day)—divine favor, shield of faith, protection from evil, comprehend languages, litany of sloth
0 (at will)—stabilize, detect magic, create water, read magic, detect poison, light
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Statistics
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Str 22, Dex 14, Con 16, Int 12, Wis 16, Cha 7
Base Atk +7; CMB +13; CMD 29
Feats Combat Reflexes, Cornugon Smash, Defensive Combat Training, Endurance, Escape Route, Keen Scent, Outflank, Power Attack, Stealth Synergy
Traits Reactionary, Trap Finder
Skills Acrobatics +12, Bluff +16, Diplomacy +16, Disable Device +16, Intimidate +21, Perception +19, Sense Motive +21, Stealth +15
Languages Common, Draconic, Orc
SQ domains (conversion inquisition), monster lore +3, orc blood, judgement 4/day), solo tactics, swaying word, teamwork feat, track
Other Gear +2 Mithral Breastplate, +1 Composite longbow (Str +4), +1 Silversheen Falchion, +2 Silversheen Falchion, Amulet of natural armor +1, Belt of physical perfection +2, Bracers of falcon's aim, Cloak of resistance +2, Feather step slippers, Headband of inspired wisdom +2, Ring of protection +1, Ring of sustenance, 2850 GP
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Special Abilities
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Bane (+2 / 2d6) (10 rounds/day) (Su) Make the weapon you are holding a bane weapon.
Combat Reflexes (3 AoO/round) Can make extra attacks of opportunity/rd, and even when flat-footed.
Cornugon Smash When you damage an opponent with a Power Attack, you may make an immediate Intimidate check as a free action to attempt to demoralize your opponent.
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Detect Alignment (At will) (Sp) Detect chaos, evil, good, or law at will.
Discern Lies (10 rounds/day) (Sp) Discern Lies at will
Endurance (Shaman's Apprentice) +4 to a variety of fort saves, skill and ability checks. Sleep in L/M armor with no fatigue.
Escape Route You do not provoke attacks of opportunity when moving through spaces adjacent to allies
Feather step slippers Ignore difficult terrain as though affected by feather step.
Inquisitor Domain (Conversion Inquisition) Deities: Any deity.
Granted Powers: You are a powerful persuader. A honeyed tongue empowered by divine argumentation sways the indifferent and adversarial to your side.
Monster Lore +3 (Ex) +3 to Knowledge checks when identifying the weaknessess of creatures.
Orc Blood Half-orcs count as both humans and orcs for any effect related to race.
Outflank Increase flank bonus by +2 if flanking ally has same feat. If you crit, ally gets an AoO.
Power Attack -2/+4 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Ring of sustenance Immune to hunger and thirst, and only sleep two hours a night.
Scent (Ex) Detect opponents within 15+ feet by sense of smell.
Second Judgement (4/day) (Su) Variable bonuses increase as the combat continues.
Solo Tactics (Ex) Count Teamwork feats as if your allies had the same ones.
Stealth Synergy Take the highest roll made by you and your allies on Stealth checks
Swaying Word (1/day) (DC 18) (Sp) Spoken word of divine wisdom dominates one person for 1 min (Will neg).
Teamwork Feat (change 3/day) Swap your most recent Teamwork feat for another
Track +5 Add the listed bonus to survival checks made to track.
Trap Finding You can disable magical traps.
Skilled in Combat... Check
Skilled in Stealth... Check
Ability to Disarm Magic Traps... Check
Social Skills... Check
Scouting Skills... Check
Yup... He definitely can do everything a Rogue does. Except he's much better at it... And this build took literally less than 5min to create.
Let me try a Dex-based build...
Male Human (Kellid) Inquisitor 10
NG Medium humanoid (human)
Init +9; Senses Perception +25
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Defense
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AC 23, touch 15, flat-footed 18 (+8 armor, +5 Dex)
hp 78 (10d8+30)
Fort +13, Ref +12, Will +13
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Offense
--------------------
Speed 30 ft.
Melee +1 silversheen scimitar +14/+9 (1d6+7/18-20/×2) and
. . +3 silversheen scimitar +16/+11 (1d6+9/18-20/×2)
Ranged +1 composite longbow +15/+10 (1d8+2/19-20/×3)
Special Attacks bane, Judgement of Sacred Destruction +4, judgement of justice, judgement of piercing, judgement of smiting
Spell-Like Abilities
. . At will—detect alignment
. . 10 rounds/day—discern lies
Inquisitor Spells Known (CL 10th; concentration +15):
4th (1/day)—greater invisibility, freedom of movement
3rd (4/day)—invisibility purge, dispel magic, heroism, burst of speed, litany of eloquence
2nd (5/day)—lesser restoration, knock, tongues, silence (DC 15), remove paralysis, invisibility, see invisibility, bloodhound
1st (6/day)—divine favor, shield of faith, protection from evil, remove fear, litany of sloth
0 (at will)—stabilize, detect magic, create water, read magic, detect poison, light
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Statistics
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Str 12, Dex 22, Con 16, Int 12, Wis 16, Cha 7
Base Atk +7; CMB +8; CMD 26
Feats Combat Reflexes, Defensive Combat Training, Dervish Dance, Improved Monster Lore, Lookout, Outflank, Skill Focus (Perception), Skill Focus (Stealth), Stealth Synergy, Weapon Finesse
Traits Focused Mind, Trap Finding
Skills Bluff +16, Climb +5, Diplomacy +16, Disable Device +20, Heal +7, Intimidate +21, Knowledge (arcana) +5 (+8 to identify the abilities and weaknesses of creatures), Knowledge (dungeoneering) +5 (+8 to identify the abilities and weaknesses of creatures), Knowledge (nature) +5 (+8 to identify the abilities and weaknesses of creatures), Knowledge (planes) +5 (+8 to identify the abilities and weaknesses of creatures), Knowledge (religion) +5 (+8 to identify the abilities and weaknesses of creatures), Linguistics +6, Perception +25, Perform (dance) +0, Sense Motive +21, Stealth +25, Survival +7 (+12 to track), Swim +5
Languages Abyssal, Celestial, Common, Draconic, Hallit, Infernal, Sylvan, Undercommon
SQ domains (conversion inquisition), monster lore +8, judgement 4/day), solo tactics, swaying word, teamwork feat, track
Other Gear +2 Mithral Breastplate, +1 Composite longbow (Str +1), +1 Silversheen Scimitar, +3 Silversheen Scimitar, Belt of physical might (Dex & Con +2), Bracers of falcon's aim, Cloak of resistance +3, Feather step slippers, Headband of inspired wisdom +2, 770 GP
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Special Abilities
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Bane (+2 / 2d6) (10 rounds/day) (Su) Make the weapon you are holding a bane weapon.
Combat Reflexes (7 AoO/round) Can make extra attacks of opportunity/rd, and even when flat-footed.
Dervish Dance Use Dex modifier instead of Str modifier with scimitar
Detect Alignment (At will) (Sp) Detect chaos, evil, good, or law at will.
Discern Lies (10 rounds/day) (Sp) Discern Lies at will
Feather step slippers Ignore difficult terrain as though affected by feather step.
Focused Mind +2 to Concentration checks
Inquisitor Domain (Conversion Inquisition) Deities: Any deity.
Granted Powers: You are a powerful persuader. A honeyed tongue empowered by divine argumentation sways the indifferent and adversarial to your side.
Lookout Not surprised if adj ally with same feat isn't surprised. Extra actions if both are aware.
Monster Lore +8 (Ex) +8 to Knowledge checks when identifying the weaknessess of creatures.
Outflank Increase flank bonus by +2 if flanking ally has same feat. If you crit, ally gets an AoO.
Second Judgement (4/day) (Su) Variable bonuses increase as the combat continues.
Solo Tactics (Ex) Count Teamwork feats as if your allies had the same ones.
Stealth Synergy Take the highest roll made by you and your allies on Stealth checks
Swaying Word (1/day) (DC 18) (Sp) Spoken word of divine wisdom dominates one person for 1 min (Will neg).
Teamwork Feat (change 3/day) Swap your most recent Teamwork feat for another
Track +5 Add the listed bonus to survival checks made to track.
Trap Finding You can disable magical traps.
This one is even better at making Rogues completely obsolete... That's cute.
My rogue build to compare with @andreww and @Lemmy
Traits: Indomitable Faith/Fast-Talker
Str:8 Dex:24 Con:14 Int:13 Wis:12 Cha:12
Feats:
Racil: Skill focus(disable device)
1:Skill Focus(Perception)
3:Skill Focus(Bluff)
5:Combat Expertise
7:Two Weapon Feint
9:Improved Two Weapon Feint
Rogue Talents:
2:Weapon Finesse
4:Two Weapon Fighting
6:Minor magic
8:Improved TWFighting
10:Major magic:mage armor
(2x)+1 Agile Kukri 8k
Cloak of Resistance +2 4k
Eyes of the Eagle 2,5k
Trapspringer's Gloves 4k
Belt of Incredible Dexterity +4 16k
Boots of haste 12k
Headband of Ninjtsu 15k
masterwork thives' tools
Skills:
Bluff: +28(10r+3cs+6f+5favorite class+2headband+1cha+1trait)
Perception: +27/+32trap (10r+3cs+6f+2racial+5eye+1wis)
Disable Device: +33/+39trap (10r+3cs+6f+5glove+7dex+2tools)
Stealth: +20
etc..
HP: ~65
AC: 17/21mage armor/22haste
Fort:+8 Ref:+16 Will:+8
Melee Attack Bonus: +13/+13/+8/+8(+7 BAB +1magic +7 Dex)
Ranged Attack Bonus: +14/+9
Haste+sneak: +16/+16/+16/+11/+11
damage: 1d4+8+5d6 18-20/x2
I don´t have time to analyse now.Please take a look
My rogue build to compare with @andreww and @Lemmy
** spoiler omitted **
I don´t have time to analyse now.Please take a look
Let me try to put it to HeroLab...
Male Half-Elf Rogue (Sanctified Rogue) 10
CG Medium humanoid (elf, human)
Init +7; Senses low-light vision; Perception +27
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Defense
--------------------
AC 21, touch 17, flat-footed 14 (+4 Mage Armor, +7 Dex)
hp 68 (10d8+20)
Fort +8, Ref +16 (+3 bonus vs. traps), Will +8; +2 vs. enchantments, +1 Luck bonus vs. traps
Defensive Abilities evasion, trap sense; Immune magic sleep; Resist elven immunities
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Offense
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Speed 30 ft.
Melee +1 agile cestus +13/+8 (1d4+8/19-20/×2) and
. . +1 agile cestus +13/+8 (1d4+4/19-20/×2)
Special Attacks sneak attack +5d6
Spell-Like Abilities
. . 3/day—minor magic
. . 2/day—major magic
--------------------
Statistics
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Str 8, Dex 24, Con 14, Int 13, Wis 12, Cha 12
Base Atk +7; CMB +6; CMD 23
Feats Combat Expertise, Improved Two-Weapon Feint, Improved Two-weapon Fighting, Skill Focus (Bluff), Skill Focus (Disable Device), Skill Focus (Perception), Two-Weapon Feint, Two-weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse
Traits fast-talker, indomitable faith
Skills Acrobatics +20, Bluff +21, Diplomacy +14, Disable Device +31 (+36 to disarm traps), Escape Artist +20, Intimidate +14, Perception +27 (+32 to locate traps), Sense Motive +14, Stealth +20, Use Magic Device +14; Racial Modifiers +2 Perception
Languages Common, Elven, Sylvan
SQ divine epiphany, elf blood, trapfinding +5
Other Gear +1 Agile Cestus, +1 Agile Cestus, Belt of incredible dexterity +4, Boots of speed (10 rounds/day), Cloak of resistance +2, Eyes of the eagle, Trapspringer's gloves, 6890 GP
--------------------
Special Abilities
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Boots of speed (10 rounds/day) Affected by haste
Combat Expertise +/-2 Bonus to AC in exchange for an equal penalty to attack.
Divine Epiphany (CL 10) (1/day) (Su) Use augury once per day.
Elf Blood Half-elves count as both elves and humans for any effect related to race.
Elven Immunities +2 save bonus vs Enchantments.
Elven Immunities - Sleep You are immune to magic sleep effects.
Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead.
Improved Two-Weapon Feint Make a Bluff check instead of your first attack
Low-Light Vision See twice as far as a human in low light, distinguishing color and detail.
Major Magic (Mage Armor) (2/day) (Sp) Gain the chosen 1st-level spell as a spell-like ability.
Minor Magic (Detect Magic) (3/day) (Sp) Gain the chosen cantrip as a spell-like ability.
Sneak Attack +5d6 +5d6 damage if you flank your target or your target is flat-footed.
Trap Sense +3 (Ex) +3 bonus on reflex saves and AC against traps.
Trapfinding +5 Gain a bonus to find or disable traps, including magical ones.
Trapspringer's gloves +5 to Disable Device against traps, +1 luck bonus to saves vs traps.
Two-Weapon Feint Forgo first melee attack to feint.
Okay, a few things...
1- You are above suggested WBL by about 7.5k, so I couldn't buy the Headband of Ninjitsu.
2- You can't take Bonus Feat before 10th, but that's okay, I simply switched it with Major Magic... Which means your character goes 9 levels with AC 17 or lower.
3- Rogues are not proficient with kukris, so I bought a pair of cestus instead.
4- Not buying the Headband of Ninjitsu means he still has about 6k left... That should be enough to buy a better Cloak of Resistance or a couple AC-boosting items, such as RoP and AoNA.
My rogue build to compare with @andreww and @Lemmy
** spoiler omitted **
I don´t have time to analyse now.Please take a look
He is a bit over WBL because he need to pay for the Master work kukris.
And he will be unhappy against baddies with DR better than /magic.Other than that he looks fine to me. But if he need to go steal a few liters of milk he is above carrying capasity.
sorry for the mistakes, i make it rush at lunch time.
by my calcs i spend 61,5k of 62k WBL.
Herolab ate my Favorite class bonus in Bluff. My bluff is 28 = p
Assuming AC 24, according to my DPR Calculator,
Leo's DPR is...
15.30 when not Sneak Attacking.
24.05 when Sneak Attack applies only to the first attack
41.55 when Sneak Attack applies to all attacks
Assuming the Rogue is flanking, the numbers change to...
52.63 when Sneak Attack applies to all attacks
EDIT: Taking Haste in consideration:
With Haste, but not flanking:
24.27 when not Sneak Attacking.
33.90 when Sneak Attack applies only to the first attack
63.65 when Sneak Attack applies to all attacks
With Haste and flanking:
77.74 when Sneak Attack applies to all attacks
Two-Weapon Feint complicates things, though... How steep is the AC penalty varies with each target. IME, it'll usually be a +2 to most humanoids and other medium-sized creatures, a +6 to Dex based medium-sized creatures, but usually only a +1, maybe a +2, against most large sized opponents.
sorry for the mistakes, i make it rush at lunch time.
by my calcs i spend 61,5k of 62k WBL.
Herolab ate my Favorite class bonus in Bluff. My bluff is 28 = p
Ah, that's my mistake, actually. I didn't notice you had used your FCB on a Bonus to Bluff, so I used it on extra skill points.
I also forgot to add Haste to my DPR calculations...
-.-'
Did you include the hasted attack?
Nope, but I already edited my post to include Haste.
The favored class bonus only applies to bluffing used to feint and diplomacy checks to gather information though.
Lemmy, did you mean to buy two scimitars (+1 and +3?)? Afaik you can't TWF with dervish dance and scimitars.
Lemmy, did you mean to buy two scimitars (+1 and +3?)? Afaik you can't TWF with dervish dance and scimitars.
Haha... No, it's just a backup weapon.
I do not know what lemmy said, but you can TWf with dervuish dance an unarmed strikes, or dervish dance and blade boots.The favored class bonus only applies to bluffing used to feint and diplomacy checks to gather information though.
Lemmy, did you mean to buy two scimitars (+1 and +3?)? Afaik you can't TWF with dervish dance and scimitars.
That... Is not an assumption I'd base my character on while sitting down at the typical gaming table.
I have other 2 builds more ranged combat focused, but 25pts.
(25pt)
Str:10
Dex:28 (+4belt + 2 lv)
Con:10
Int:11
Wis:16 (+2 hb)
Cha:8
Inic: + 11(dex,trait) CA:24(dex, size,ice armor)
Feats/Talents:
1:Point Blank Shot,
2:Ki pool
3:Rapid Shot
4:minor magic
5:weapon focus (shuiriken)
6:Sniper's Eye
7:extra talente: ninja trick: flurry of stars
8:major magic (obscure mist)
9: revelation: Water Sight (oracle). Extra revelation:ice armor
10: -
Bab+6/+1, +9Dex +1Size +1Haste(boots) +1WF +1PB +1shuriken MW -2 Rapid Shot - 2 Flurry of Stars
+16/+16/+16/+16/+16/+11
Obscure mist centered on the goblin for SA all turns and 20-50% miss chance on him.
Equip: belt 16k, headband 4k, boots 12k, 30k for supplies
Str 14, Dex 26, Con 10, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 8
HP: 10d8 +10
AC: 19 (10 +8 dex +1 armor)
Touch: 19; FF: 13
Saves: Fortitude +5, Reflex +16, Will +5
BAB +7; CMB +11 ; CMD 29
Haste +17 - 1d8+ 5d6 + 18 + 5 bleed + (Purple Worm poison - contact For=DC26 1d3str, frequency 1/round 12 rounds, cure: 2 consecutive saves)
Rapid Shot +17 - 1d8+ 5d6 + 18 + 5 bleed
1st Attack +17 - 1d8+ 5d6 + 18 + 5 bleed
2nd Attack +12 - 1d8+ 5d6 + 18 + 5 bleed
Traits: Reactionary +2 inic. Eyes and Ears of the City +1 perception
Feats:Weapon Proficiense(Long Composite bow) Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Skill Focus(Perception), Deadly Aim,
Rogue Talents:Bleeding Attack, Sniper´s Eye(allow sneak attack arget with concelment), Weapon Training, Follow Clues, Deadly Cocktail.
Skills (90 points):
Acrobatics +21 (10 ranks)
Diplomacy + 12 (10 ranks)
Climb + 19 (10 ranks)
Disable Device +23 (10 ranks)
Craft(alchemy) + 13 (10 ranks)
Perception/Track +23 (10 ranks)
Sleight of Hand +21 (10 ranks)
Stealth +21 (10 ranks)
Use Magic Device +12 (10 ranks)
Equipment: +2 Long composite bow (+2 str), Belt of +4 Dex, Boots of Speed, Sniper´s goggle, Bracers of he falcon´s aim, Padded Armomr, cloak of resistence +1.
Thieves’ tools masterwork, Climber’s kit.
Not sure why it is an assumption. Dervish dance prohibit you o to use your second hand not the other limbs.That... Is not an assumption I'd base my character on while sitting down at the typical gaming table.I do not know what lemmy said, but you can TWf with dervuish dance an unarmed strikes, or dervish dance and blade boots.The favored class bonus only applies to bluffing used to feint and diplomacy checks to gather information though.
Lemmy, did you mean to buy two scimitars (+1 and +3?)? Afaik you can't TWF with dervish dance and scimitars.
I'd rather not derail this into a Dervish Dance two weapon fighting discussion - if you want to continue that debate, feel free to send me a PM or search for one of the numerous other threads on the topic.
Rogues can do all the necessary stuff at the same time.So can all of those characters.They really can't, or at least not without considerable fiddling/dipping etc. You've got to deal with infiltration, social situations, physical obstacles and (quiet, swift) mook dispatching all at once.
The only ones I will grant you are the Ninja, which I am considering the same class, and possibly the Vivisectionist, which for better or worse brings up the PFS issue.
Actually they can. We've played many shadow run style games in Pathfinder. So we've made many classes a roguish a possible with out dipping. Like an Urban Barbarian, Ranger, Archeologist, Inquisitors, and rogue in one game. The rogue was a bit better than the Barbarian off the start but the Ranger, Archeologist and Inquisitor were much the same. The rogue was great till about 12th level. At this point the rogue started missing to much and taking too much damage as they put themselves in harms way to get the sneak attack. The Archeologist and Inquisitor also took a beating but they could at least hit in combat. The Inquisitors use of Tactical Acumen helped thing out with +3 on flanking and talked the Rogue into getting the Out Flank Teamwork feat for another +2. That solved the to hit problems.
sorry for the mistakes, i make it rush at lunch time.
by my calcs i spend 61,5k of 62k WBL.
Herolab ate my Favorite class bonus in Bluff. My bluff is 28 = p
The kukris cost 308 more each because you have to buy the masterwork weapon before getting it enhanced. That brings you 116 above WBL.
It is not a lot i know. But if one can break the WBL they all will do it;)
While I'm generally on board with the arguments about the rogue being underpowered, it seems clear that Trap Finder is a campaign trait and outside the context of Mummy's Mask, we shouldn't be assuming it will be available. The blurb on the store page for People of the Sands even uses the words "campaign traits".
I ignore fluff and campaign restrictions for pretty much every game mechanic. I can create my character's back story, personality and fluff by myself. I don't need books to do that.
While I'm generally on board with the arguments about the rogue being underpowered, it seems clear that Trap Finder is a campaign trait and outside the context of Mummy's Mask, we shouldn't be assuming it will be available. The blurb on the store page for People of the Sands even uses the words "campaign traits".
Campaign traits aren't restricted to the associated campaign, they're just tailored to particularly suit it.
although, just to be sassy, I believe Campaign Traits are not PFS-legal
I try to look at these types of discussions from the perspective of no-3pp and using PFS rules, as otherwise they are just sort of calvinball
I ignore PFS. As I said before it's rules are not any more valid or balanced than any other set of house rules. It's its own Calvinball. I usually don't refer to 3pp because I don't know much of it and most people seem to avoid using it.
I don't care whether you like it or not, that is not the point
the point is making an established point of reference so the everyone is on the page, even if that page is just the word 'derp' repeated 3028482049 times
basically sticking the dang goalposts in the ground and leaving them there, even if they're on the 20 yard line
although, just to be sassy, I believe Campaign Traits are not PFS-legalSome are, some are not.
ToZ I picture you saying that to me in sort of a what is the sound of one hand clapping kind of way
but man I cannot find any that are
also I would feel bad about sort of derailing this via traits if it wasn't the same thread as all the other rogue threads
Well the thread was built on a poorly conceived thesis. And is ultimately false.
The state of the Rogue is pretty much the textbook definition of Underpowered.
It is less powerful than most of the other classes. It looks *okay* when compared next to the Fighter whom is also at the bottom.
Fighter on the bottom?
Explain.
Fighter does good damage. So does everyone. Everyone else does other stuff too. The Fighter doesn't.
It's fundamentally the same problem with the Rogue. It does pretty bad damage. It does other stuff. Some folks can do everything it can do but better.
So why pick a Fighter or Rogue?
Fighter on the bottom?
Explain.
I can think of so many bad jokes...
He said also on the bottom. Fighter, Rogue, Monk attract threads on how meh they are.
Edit: Ninja'd, And not a bad joke in sight... yet.
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I don't care whether you like it or not, that is not the point
the point is making an established point of reference so the everyone is on the page, even if that page is just the word 'derp' repeated 3028482049 times
basically sticking the dang goalposts in the ground and leaving them there, even if they're on the 20 yard line
We can use RAW for that. PFS is too restrictive for my tastes. It removes several options from the game.
While I understand the appeal of PFS, I don't think it's a good measure of balance.