Lead Designer
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This thread is for discussing the REVISED version of the Warpriest. It should be used as a central location for feedback on the class as a whole. Discussion on specific topics and rules should receive their own individual thread in this forum.
Once you have had a chance to playtest the revised version, please be sure to update your survey results, which can be found HERE
Keep it civil and polite folks. Remember we are all here to make this book the best it can be.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
**OFFICIAL UPATES**
The following updates apply to the warpriest.
- The warpriest gains proficiency with his deity's favored weapon. (Because the Lead Designer is a dummy who spaced on putting that in there... again)
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More detailed feedback will definitely follow, but first impression: I LOVE IT
Second readthrough, some thoughts:
Still two skill points per level. I know this is a bit of a sticking point since both of its parent classes get 2, but 4 skill points would really help.
I love how the Sacred Weapon mechanic interacts with favored weapons and the base attack bonus. It's the perfect fit for the class.
Imbue Weapon is still 1 round/level. That's very short when the Imbue Armor equivalent is 1 minute/level. Is there a balancing factor in play here? It'd be nice if these had the same duration, easier to remember and less to keep track of.
Fervor seems to be Lay on Hands and Spell Combat's beautiful offspring, I really like it. However, keying it off Charisma does make the Warpriest kind of MAD in that it'll need Str/Dex, Wisdom, Charisma, and Constitution - pretty similar to the 3.5 Paladin before PF merged the paladin's spellcasting stat into charisma.
Channel Energy is still in - this surprised me a little. Partial progression channeling isn't super exciting but it means the warpriest can help out with downtime healing without burning spell slots better used for Fervor.
Sacred Armor is unchanged as near as I can tell. A good ability, but I'd like to see a little more variety in the armor enhancement options. Glamered seems a little strange for a warpriest. The previous Warpriest thread had some suggestions for other enhancements that might fit the flavour of the class better.
Bonus Feats are lovely, but the Warpriest still has a hard time qualifying for combat feats with a medium Base Attack Bonus. Any chance the WP can use his warpriest level as BAB for feats as well as attacks? That way he can pick up Improved Critical at level 8 instead of 11, and so on.
I haven't covered blessings here because it's a bit too comprehensive to gloss over but I'll give them a lookover next.
Overall this is a huge improvement on the original class. The previous class I wouldn't have touched with a 10 feet pole, this class I'd play in a heartbeat. I have a PF session coming up on Thursday and I'll definitely play test a warpriest if the GM will let me.
If I wield two daggers that are Sacred weapons via Weapon Focus, do I get the Sacred Weapon damage on both of them (d6)?
Basically - is the Sacred Weapon an individual, specific weapon? Or does it apply to wielding two?
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Lead Designer
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If I wield two daggers that are Sacred weapons via Weapon Focus, do I get the Sacred Weapon damage on both of them (d6)?
Basically - is the Sacred Weapon an individual, specific weapon? Or does it apply to wielding two?
It would apply to both.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
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First blush, this revised version is GREATLY improved. I love the additions, scaling back the front-loading, and the new version of weapon focus/sacred weapon. I'm reviewing the blessings now, but at first glance they don't look to have changed much.
One thing I did note, it doesn't look like the proficiency in the deity's favored weapon made it into the revised document. Given previous information, I realize it's probably just an oversight, but I did feel the need to point it out.
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I haven't even fully read the class and I can already tell that it is far closer to what everyone was hoping for, but I do have two quick questions:
1) Free Weapon Proficiency for the favored weapon is gone now? Just a quick yes or no (I realize you don't have to use the weapon anymore, but it does matter a lot)
2) Will there be a feat for Extra Fervor? Or have it work like Lay on Hands and key off of Extra Channels?
If I wield two daggers that are Sacred weapons via Weapon Focus, do I get the Sacred Weapon damage on both of them (d6)?
Basically - is the Sacred Weapon an individual, specific weapon? Or does it apply to wielding two?
It would apply to both.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Wow. 5th level TWF Dagger Chaos Blessing Warpriest for the win (1d8 each dagger at +5 BAB, with 1d6 on one for Anarchic Strike Chaos Blessing!)
But the 4th level enhancement and weapon quality stuff only apply to one weapon right? Is a little unclear because it says:
At 4th level, the warpriest gains the ability to imbue his sacred weapon with divine power as a swift action.
Which seems to indicate Sacred Weapon is only ONE weapon, and therefore doesn't apply to two weapons of the same kind TWF'ed…
Perhaps it needs to say:
At 4th level, the warpriest gains the ability to imbue a/one sacred weapon with divine power as a swift action.
BTW, I'm quite impressed with this version of the Warpriest. The bonus feats are good, Sacred armor nice and the Fervor is on theme….
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I think I love you.
(small note though; fervor keying off cha and spells off wis seems like regressing back into what was bad about the 3.5 paladin.)
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Lead Designer
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If I wield two daggers that are Sacred weapons via Weapon Focus, do I get the Sacred Weapon damage on both of them (d6)?
Basically - is the Sacred Weapon an individual, specific weapon? Or does it apply to wielding two?
It would apply to both.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead DesignerWow. 5th level TWF Dagger Chaos Blessing Warpriest for the win (1d8 each dagger at +5 BAB, with 1d6 on one for Anarchic Strike Chaos Blessing!)
But the 4th level enhancement and weapon quality stuff only apply to one weapon right? Is a little unclear because it says:
At 4th level, the warpriest gains the ability to imbue his sacred weapon with divine power as a swift action.Which seems to indicate Sacred Weapon is only ONE weapon, and therefore doesn't apply to two weapons of the same kind TWF'ed…
Perhaps it needs to say:
At 4th level, the warpriest gains the ability to imbue a/one sacred weapon with divine power as a swift action.BTW, I'm quite impressed with this version of the Warpriest. The bonus feats are good, Sacred armor nice and the Fervor is on theme….
It only applies to one weapon.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Ack. You guys kept the Community Blessing the same?
You know who grants the Community Blessing right? Erastil. As in guys who don't want that ability on the battlefield since it redirects ALL PROJECTILES!
I see Blessings weren't changed a whole lot. I feel like not a whole lot of folks are going to use the ones that require actions for relatively tame effects. Since we're way better at whacking things now, I think we'll be doing that instead.
Is there a reason why the Animal Blessing Battle Companion is better than all the others? Not that thats bad mind you, I just hoped that all of them were brought up to that level.
Sacred Weapon duration is still very low.
But thats just me looking for the bad stuff.
Other than that, love what you've done with the class.
Fervor is tasty and full BAB when wielding your sacred weapons rocks.
Spotted that Unarmed Strike Warpriest as a viable build. Looking forward to it. Using Sacred Weapon, can you enchant your unarmed strikes?
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The only questions I have are:
1) Why must the bonus feats still be Combat feats? It's restrictive.
2) Why is the Sacred Weapon damage an either/or option? Why not just add the damage to the regular weapon damage? It seems a bit off to me.
3) What's the thinking behind only having two-step blessings? Is this to keep the blessing in line with a Domain granted powers? It's okay but the blessing seems a bit underpowered for something so iconic about the class.
4) No hope of going to fighter BAB?
That said: HUGE step in the right direction. Fervor and the ability to use Fervor so dynamically (channeling, casting without a free hand) makes this class much better.
Part of me wishes Fervour would allow Warpriests to cast spells as immediate actions. That would be an interesting addition to the class.
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Lead Designer
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Is the first ability for the Plant Blessing really suppose to be "Name"? Seems kind of...out of place and uncreative :\
That's my only gripe so far, this revision is a HUGE improvement :)
Yeah, its not supposed to be name. I thought I fixed that. Note #2 for the change log.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
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I am not liking what I see so far. It seems for every step forward, we go two back. It's nice that Sacred Weapon is a Swift, but the bonus Base Damage is not a good idea. It seems like they went for the "Paladin without alignment" rather then the Cleric/Fighter. And instead of fixing the MAD, they made it even more so with Spontaneous Casting/Fervor, while continuing to give Channel Energy, just even worse.
I noticed there is no Deity's Favored Weapon proficiency.
Glancing through the Blessings I can recall off the top of my head, it doesn't seem like any are changed at all, especially Eristal's big issue.
I'm disappointed that so far I like the original more, but I will go ahead and playtest it a few, just to see if I could be mistaken.
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I'm just really hoping for an Extra Fervor feat. Still awesome even without it though.
2) Why is the Sacred Weapon damage an either/or option? Why not just add the damage to the regular weapon damage? It seems a bit off to me.
4) No hope of going to fighter BAB?
2) It'd make greatswords pretty outrageous at first level for one. 3d6 damage? Though I am slightly offput that Sacred Weapon does nothing for better weapons till the end game.
4)They have full BAB when using one of their sacred weapons.
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Love the revision on a first glance.
Quick question about the Luck Blessing's Unlucky Presence (minor) ability.
At 1st level, as a swift action you can cause an adjacent opponent to become unlucky. If you succeed at a melee touch attack [...]
Is it:
(A) swift to activate, standard to touch?
(B) swift to activate and a free attempt to touch?
I assume it's the first, but the wording is sufficiently ambiguous that I expect future FAQ threads ... :-P
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Something I noticed. Under sacred armor it never says that using a swift action activates the ability for an entire minute. Just that you can only use it for one minute/level per day.
Do I need to activate it every round?
If so can I activate it doubly with sacred weapon?
Very first sentence:
"Sacred Armor (Su): At 7th level, the warpriest gains the ability to imbue his armor with divine power as a swift action."
:)
It makes for a rather heavily armored monk, and one with spellcasting, no?
There are rather a lot of things that does monk better than monk, if we define monk as "unarmed warrior"
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2) Why is the Sacred Weapon damage an either/or option? Why not just add the damage to the regular weapon damage? It seems a bit off to me.
4) No hope of going to fighter BAB?
2) It'd make greatswords pretty outrageous at first level for one. 3d6 damage? Though I am slightly offput that Sacred Weapon does nothing for better weapons till the end game.
4)They have full BAB when using one of their sacred weapons.
Re: 2) True. But the Paladin's smite and Channel Smite all work with weapon damage first the add extra damage afterwords. Why should this be different?
Re: 4)Ah. Missed that. It should say that the Warpriest has the fighter BAB. Saying that the BAB is the Warpiest level when using the sacred weapon doesn't specifically mention the iterative.
Also - why do this song and dance? If the warpriest has the Fighter BAB for sacred weapon - just give him the Fighter BAB overall and avoid the (seemingly) needless complication. What does it really gain for the class to force the player to keep track of two BABs?
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It seems like they went for the "Paladin without alignment"
You say that like it's a bad thing...and not something the majority was asking for.
First glance, Warpriest is probably the best revision here.
Full BaB equivalent with the Sacred Weapon/Weapon Focus'd weapon is a nice touch. I like that, eventually "Dagger Greatswords" is a thing.
Haven't really checked out the Blessings yet, but I'll take people at their word that few have changed.
Sacred Weapon...duration is way too short. I think minutes/level (or even 1/2 level) would be a good change if it's not going to be always on.
I really like Fervor. Took some of the "Divine/Defensive Magus" suggestions to heart I see.
Major gripe: Focus Weapon grants Weapon Focus to everybody...except us poor people who like Unarmed Strikes. We have to actually buy (effectively) proficiency in the darn things instead. Not cool bro.
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I am hoping to start a discussion in another thread about specific blessing issues btw. That was something that was very hard to suss out in the first version and its accompanying feedback.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Is there a specific spot for this? Where you wanting one thread per Blessing, or all together, or how would you like that?
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# of Swift Actions by the Warpriest just for observation:
Sacred Weapon
Sacred Armor
Fervor Speed Casting
Fervor Self Healing
1 or 2 Blessing Abilties
Maybe allow Sacred Weapon and Armor to be activated with the same Swift Action?
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Lead Designer
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Is there a specific spot for this? Where you wanting one thread per Blessing, or all together, or how would you like that?I am hoping to start a discussion in another thread about specific blessing issues btw. That was something that was very hard to suss out in the first version and its accompanying feedback.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
All together. I will start an official thread for it here in a bit.
Jason Bulmahn
Flying around the boards at light speed
Question about Ferver and Channel Energy Synergy:
If I were to take levels of Warpriest and then go into Holy Vindicator, would channel energy from Vindicator stack with fervor damage from Warpriest?
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It seems like they went for the "Paladin without alignment"You say that like it's a bad thing...and not something the majority was asking for.
I don't know about majority, but yah it's one of the more popular, though not at all the only one. Thing is though, this is not the Paladin + Alignment doesn't apply class. This is the Ceric + Fighter hybrid, and this looks like a meh Fighter/Cleric, pretty strong Paladin and Monk class.
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Bonus Feats are lovely, but the Warpriest still has a hard time qualifying for combat feats with a medium Base Attack Bonus. Any chance the WP can use his warpriest level as BAB for feats as well as attacks? That way he can pick up Improved Critical at level 8 instead of 11, and so on.
Bingo!
Either up the BAB to put the Combat feats in reach OR relax the Combat Feat requirement for them.
2) Why is the Sacred Weapon damage an either/or option? Why not just add the damage to the regular weapon damage? It seems a bit off to me.
4) No hope of going to fighter BAB?
2) It'd make greatswords pretty outrageous at first level for one. 3d6 damage? Though I am slightly offput that Sacred Weapon does nothing for better weapons till the end game.
4)They have full BAB when using one of their sacred weapons.
Re: 2) True. But the Paladin's smite and Channel Smite all work with weapon damage first the add extra damage afterwords. Why should this be different?
Re: 4)Ah. Missed that. It should say that the Warpriest has the fighter BAB. Saying that the BAB is the Warpiest level when using the sacred weapon doesn't specifically mention the iterative.
Also - why do this song and dance? If the warpriest has the Fighter BAB for sacred weapon - just give him the Fighter BAB overall and avoid the (seemingly) needless complication. What do it really gain for the class to force the player to keep track of two BABs?
That's a good question.
For one thing, it keeps them from taking feats that require BaB at first level, and delays acquisition of higher feats. This might be a balance thing? We don't want him to overshadow the fighter too much, what with full bab, swift-action buffs and sacred weapon+X?|
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This never states how long sacred armor lasts, just that you can turn it on with a swift action. I just want to note it never says
"Sacred Armor (Su): At 7th level, the warpriest gains the ability to imbue his armor with divine power as a swift action lasting minimum one minute.
You activate it, and it lasts until you use it all up or decide to stop it. However, it uses 1 Minute increments, so if you are at the end of 1 minute, and use it for one more round, it wastes 1 more minute even if you turn it off right after that. You do not have to spend a Swift Action each minute to reactivate it.
"The warpriest can use this ability one minute per day per warpriest level, but these minutes do not need to be consecutive."
If that doesn't answer your question, I'm sorry, I don't get what your asking and maybe JB can jump in.
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That's a good question.
For one thing, it keeps them from taking feats that require BaB at first level, and delays acquisition of higher feats. This might be a balance thing? We don't want him to overshadow the fighter too much, what with full bab, swift-action buffs and sacred weapon+X?
Fair point.
I'd love to see the full BAB given in exchange for some of the bonus feats. At present, the feats are nice to have but don't add a lot of crunch when compared to full BAB martials.
One question - the Brawler has a class feature (Martial Training) that calls out that they qualify for feats as though she is a fighter or monk. The warpriest does not have a similar ability.
Does this mean that Warpriest levels do not qualify for fighter-only feats like Weapon Specialization?
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Lead Designer
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There is now a thread specifically for discussing Warpriest Blessings. You can find it HERE .
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
That's a good question.
For one thing, it keeps them from taking feats that require BaB at first level, and delays acquisition of higher feats. This might be a balance thing? We don't want him to overshadow the fighter too much, what with full bab, swift-action buffs and sacred weapon+X?Fair point.
I'd love to see the full BAB given in exchange for some of the bonus feats. At present, the feats are nice to have but don't add a lot of crunch when compared to full BAB martials.
I'm not quite sure I agree with my own point. Having it 'kinda sorta' full BaB feels funny, altough upping it to straight full might make it the "yeah, the rest of you can just go die in a hole now" of martial classes, so to speak.
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After an initial read, the warpriest looks super starved for swift actions. From class abilities alone, he can use swift actions to:
1) Enhance his weapon
2) Enhance his armor
3) Cast buffs
4) Heal himself
There is no way to do all that in one combat.
More-so, there is a ton of overlap. You can use spells to increase, attack, weapon damage and healing...
I feel that it would be better to have a single (large?) pool of points that would fule all of these abilities.
Also, enhance weapon and armor should probobly be actavaitable all at once. Maybe at a higher level?
Channel looks out of place. Fervor is just too valuable to spend on healing. You could cast 2 swift action spells for that price...
Edit: I am loving the swift spell ability. Its super cool!
I too would like it if Sacred Weapon lasted a minute per level, for the sake of ease of tracking and to make it a more useful ability at lower levels. Would that be too powerful? I don't rightly know.
I can understand the complaint that nothing has been done to reduce the MADness of this class, but at least now there are worthwhile abilities to account for it. I wouldn't complain if they tied spellcasting, blessings, and fervor to a single stat (preferably WIS to further differentiate the class from the Paladin), but I can also see the multiple stat dependency as part of the price to pay for an effectively full BAB/6lvl caster class that is paladin-like without the alignment restrictions.
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I'm not quite sure I agree with my own point. Having it 'kinda sorta' full BaB feels funny, altough upping it to straight full might make it the "yeah, the rest of you can just go die in a hole now" of martial classes, so to speak.
I hear ya.
The BAB is really the crux of this class's issues (IMHO). If it goes full BAB, dial back the feats for the sake of Balance.
I'm not even sure I like the scaled Sacred Weapon damage.
And weirdly...if the sacred weapon damage doesn't add mundane damage first...why does the size of the priest matter? If it's faith based (not physical) why does a gnome have smaller "Faith-power" than a medium sized Warpriest?
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Might be good to give him a "downgrade" function. He can activate it as a Swift, Move, or Standard on each of those, so if he wants he can spend a round buffing himself to the gills before wading in, which I think was the intent of having all of those abilities.
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This looks great to me. Really, really great. I believe my only real request would be for you guys at Paizo to consider the following: Either te introducion of a feat, or revision of some class mechanic so as to allow you to channel your fervor through a weapon. The idea would be to maintain the functionality of something like channel smite, as that is the kind of power I feel would fit offensively oriented, negative energy channeling warpriests exceedingly well. That being said, it's far more powerful now. I would definitely play one as a main character if this current design was the one to reach the finish line.
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What about the starknife? it seems like desna warprest can not give a good use of the deity favored weapon
"These bonuses only apply while the warpriest is
holding the weapon, and end immediately if the weapon
is sheathed or leaves the warpriest’s possession"
It wouldn't do a lot of good to throw it anyway, at least not without the returning property.