Shaman Discussion


Class Discussion

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Shadow Lodge

Knifechief wrote:


How on earth are they doing the same job twice as well? A cleric with powerful domains might have an edge, but it's certainly not twice as effective. An oracle has less spells known and has to deal with whatever penalty their curse gives.

While the shaman have one spirit power at first level the cleric have two domain powers plus channel energy. The oracle have equivalent mysteries and revelations with more spells per day and no familiar spellbook to be targeted. They get the cure spells known for free and their curse is not only penalities, it also buffs them.

Twice may be a strong term but I found both original classes more powerfull at said levels them the shaman.

Knifechief wrote:


I seriously don't get where you're getting anything remotely like "crippled" from. By second level, a Lore Shaman can get Confusion Curse, which is brutal, while a Heavens Shaman has color spray from level one and gets hypnotic pattern at level three, then only gets more options at level four.
If anything, I'd compare the Shaman's power favorably to reasonably-optimized cleric and oracle, from my playtesting experience.

Confusion curse is very good but a Lore shaman is probably the MADdest class in the game right now, making one on a 15 point buy can be an exercise in frustration. Heavens oracle also gets said spells as the heavens shaman plus awesome display which allows them to still be relevant at later levels.

Sovereign Court

If you really want a spontaneous druid, then maybe that could be the Hunter class. But for the Shaman, it's supposed to be oracle/witch, so I have to agree with keeping the druid list out of it.

I'd be down with the shaman as a spontaneous caster using the witch spell-list, that could be an interesting way to go.

The one thing I feel lacking the most from the current shaman is the inability to shoot lightning bolts. I mean, seriously, where's my lightning bolts?


ciretose wrote:
Zark wrote:
mplindustries wrote:
Cheapy wrote:
Yes, it really comes down to whether you want a shaman that communes with spirits, like the one presented, or a shaman that's infused with nature.
What if you want both? I want both.

+1

Me too.
Both lists.
1/2 BAB
D6 HD
No armor or prevented from using anything light armor.
Finally we can get a Divine caster.
That...is actually kind of genius.

Thanks ciretose :)

The reason I suggested no armor is because light armor always means medium armor since people will get elven chain or mithral armor as soon as they can.

A simple fix could be only light armor and not metal.
This would mean you still could get descent armor and that you have to rely more on dex and casting.

I really like to play a divine caster appose to a Codzilla and for that purpose we need to nerf the armor and BAB and give it a caster spell list and the Cleric list pretty lame if you want to be a caster.

some posters wrote:
but the Cleric spell list is better than the Druid’s list

I would say, no.

The druid is better in all aspect except perhaps:
  • If you want party buffs like bless, Prayer and Blessing of Fervor
  • If you want to play "reactively" instead of "proactively".
  • if you want to focus mainly on Summons.
  • Codzilla spells
  • Some buff/protection spells (also know as: Talk to your wizard or Sorcerer)

    Buffs:
    Bless quickly becomes obsolete, but if you want it get a potion of it.
    Prayer: This one is good, I agree, but it too becomes obsolete at higher levels and the Druid also gets some really good level 3 spells.
    Blessing of Fervor: This is a really good spell, but it’s a level 4 spell and haste is a level 4 spell. Druid got some really nasty level 4 spells too.

    Reactively, playing the healbot:
    Not a very effective way of using your resources, but if this is what you want pick Life spirit. Even if you don’t pick Life spirit you pretty much got all you need. CLW, resist energy, Lesser restoration, naturalize poison and heal. Use spell staff and you can cast heal as a 6 level spell.

    Summons:
    Agree, there are some summons on the Cleric list that are very good, but the druid got some very good summons too and the Druid got animal Growth.

    Codzilla spells:
    Well, we wanted a caster, not a Codzilla.

    buff/protection spells:
    Then there are some spells that the Cleric has, the druid don’t have, but that the wizard got:
    So the Druid don’t have magic weapon, Protection from evil, Magic circle against evil, magic weapon and magic Vestment. Don’t worry. The wizard/Sorcerer have them and…

  • A: anyone can get a potion of Protection from evil or magic weapon.
  • B: Greater magic weapon and magic Vestment. How often does you cleric really use these spells? Magic armor comes cheap and the bonus from Greater magic weapon don’t stack with the bonus on your weapon and doesn’t count against DR.

    But hey, buffs and protection: Feather step and Barkskin remains useful from start to finish and you don’t find Barkskin on the Wizard list.

    The Druid list is so much more versatile, fun and far more sexy than the Cleric spells. Unlike the Cleric list the spell can be used even when you are a high level character. Longstrider and feather step etc. remain useful from low levels until the end of that AP you are playing.

    And the Druid has some cool blast spells that are far better than any cleric spells, and far more sexy. Hey, they get Stone Call at level 3 and flame strike at level 7 (as a 4th spell) and Ice storm that comes with no save and raider effects. Then we have all the Spike spells + fire wall. He he.

    Also, the Druid has far better battle field spells and utility spells.

    Finally, the Druid got some really good Conjuration spells, so if you plan to take Augment Summoning spell focus conjuration won’t simply be a feat tax, but you will actually benefit from it.

    If cure spells or Codzilla spells is what you want, cleric spell list is better. If you want to be a dedicated caster druid spell list is better.


  • Then is the Shaman subbing for the Wizard's place on the team Zark?

    Because before switching to the Druid list, the Shaman could be an able replacement for the Cleric. Now that is much less possible due to lack of prevention spells. And Condition removal. Druids don't get Restoration at all =(

    Also "Dont worry" about all the spells the Wizard might have? I don't know many wizards who purchased the various protection and magic armament spells. And the Sorcerer isn't going to have them because thats silly.

    How do you feel about the Shaman being a Spontaneous caster?

    Honestly the Shaman is just looking like a Druid with Domains.

    Scarab Sages

    Scavion wrote:
    Because before switching to the Druid list, the Shaman could be an able replacement for the Cleric. Now that is much less possible due to lack of prevention spells. And Condition removal. Druids don't get Restoration at all =(

    Go with the Life spirit. You get Lesser Restoration (2nd), Restoration (4th), and Greater Restoration (7th).

    Quote:
    How do you feel about the Shaman being a Spontaneous caster?

    Spontaneous caster like a Druid/Oracle? Plus it is partially Spontaneous via Spirit Magic.

    Quote:
    Honestly the Shaman is just looking like a Druid with Domains.

    Correction, Revelations. Also Druids already have the option to go for Domains instead of an Animal Companion at 1st level.


    There are basically four ideas I've seen any of which would be great, but the current Shaman is a boring also cleric.

    There's Zark's divine pure caster. I don't agree with the armor restriction because no divine caster has ever had an armor weight restriction, but a material based restriction like the druid has is, well, not unprecedented.

    There's the spontaneous druid. It doesn't exist and lots of people want it. The druid list would be harmed less by spontaneity than the cleric or wizard list because it's not loaded down with expected spells like remove curse and teleport.

    There's the spontaneous witch. It doesn't exist and at least some people want it. I don't think it's as popular as the druid list though.

    There's the divine arcanist. This would basically be a replacement for oracle that gets rid of the RP ball and chain* that is the curse and mitigates the spells known problem. You wouldn't be able to leave slots open in case you needed remove blindness/deafness or remove curse or remove disease or both remove curse and remove disease, but at least you'd be able to have them in 24 hours and if you knew ahead of time you were going to be facing mummies you could be prepared with the right spells.

    While I'd like to see a spontaneous cleric replacement that worked as a matter of basic principle I find Zark's cleric/druid hybrid the most exciting option.

    * mechanics aside it's extremely metagame to go on a quest with someone disabled who isn't a walking (or limping) mcguffin. If they were the only divine casters it would be a necessary evil, but what good or even just practical person wouldn't prefer the company of a hale and healthy cleric when going into harm's way?


    Brawling Elf wrote:
    Scavion wrote:
    Because before switching to the Druid list, the Shaman could be an able replacement for the Cleric. Now that is much less possible due to lack of prevention spells. And Condition removal. Druids don't get Restoration at all =(

    Go with the Life spirit. You get Lesser Restoration (2nd), Restoration (4th), and Greater Restoration (7th).

    Quote:
    How do you feel about the Shaman being a Spontaneous caster?

    Spontaneous caster like a Druid/Oracle? Plus it is partially Spontaneous via Spirit Magic.

    Quote:
    Honestly the Shaman is just looking like a Druid with Domains.

    Correction, Revelations. Also Druids already have the option to go for Domains instead of an Animal Companion at 1st level.

    I've just lost a lot of reasons to play a Cleric if I can solve all those problems while being a more versatile caster. And get class features. And get a capstone.

    Fudge it.

    Now I hate the Shaman.

    Scarab Sages

    Scavion wrote:

    I've just lost a lot of reasons to play a Cleric if I can solve all those problems while being a more versatile caster. And get class features. And get a capstone.

    Fudge it.

    Now I hate the Shaman.

    Understandable, the main thing about the class is its massive adaptability and versatility.

    - - - - - - - - - -

    Did I miss a memo? When was the Druid not consider spontaneous in the past decade?


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    Another full healer that does not have the cleric list would be wonderful. That's part of the problem with witch and druid. The healing part of their spell lists is intentionally nerfed. They don't get the big healing progression of cleric nor do they get access to a cool class feature that allows them to spontaneously convert spell slots to heals. Witch can use their healing hex to cheat this somewhat, but that's only once per person per day.

    I think part of the problem is that if you want a solid healer you're stuck with the cleric spell list simply because that's the only spell list designed to be a solid healer. It's just an annoying quirk with how they have designed the game (it's a big 'they', because Paizo inherited a large chunk of it from d20).

    A new list that does a full healing progression and spirit stuff like cleric, involves nature warfare stuff like druid, and curse/sucks-to-be-you things from the witch would be awesome. However, that would cause every product from now on that had an appropriately thematic spell in it to be listed as a "shaman" spell in addition to being a witch, druid, or cleric spell.

    I think Atarlost is right. We've got a couple niches that we're all fighting for shaman to fill simply because we've got those niches to fill and shaman appears to be our best bet as far as classes in this playtest.

    I hope Paizo is looking at this and realizing that people really want those couple healer/divine niches filled and come out with something in 2015 to scratch our collective itches in their "Ultimate Divine"* book.

    * Please note that I have no idea what books Paizo is putting out in 2015. I've currently put out the predictions of it being a Psychic Magic book or an Underwater Campaign guide and now a big book on divine things. If you throw enough darts, you'll eventually hit the target. However, if I'm right about any of them I'm going to forever shout, "I called it!"


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    Zark wrote:


    I would say, no.
    The druid is better in all aspect except perhaps:
  • If you want party buffs like bless, Prayer and Blessing of Fervor
  • If you want to play "reactively" instead of "proactively".
  • if you want to focus mainly on Summons.
  • Codzilla spells
  • Some buff/protection spells (also know as: Talk to your wizard or Sorcerer)
  • My reason for wanting the cleric spell list is because it is hands down better at dealing with spirits, the thing the class is about.

    The Druid spell list can't really affect spirits anywhere near the same level, and it can't ward evil spirits off from locations.

    That's the canonical shaman-as-spirit-whisperer spell!


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    Seems like that argument hinges on a particular definition of spirit.

    With a different worldview, you could argue that there are fire spirits, air spirits, tree spirits, stone spirits, animal spirits, etc.

    And from that lens, the druid spell list is just about perfect. So a debate about the 'right' shaman seems to really be about 'what do we mean by spirit, and what can we expect from a spirit-talker?"


    Those whispy things that fly around and moan at people.


    A thought on first-level play:
    Stone seems like a good choice. You can actually use your familiar in combat for the first level. DR 5/adamantine is pretty hefty. Spell selection (assuming 12-18 Wis) is CLW to heal it in an emergency, Magic Stone from the spirit, and your choice of a first-level spell. Assuming you've got a neutral 10 in Cha, you get three touch attacks for 1d6 acid, three magic stones for 1d6+1, one heal, one other spell, and a familiar that is pretty safe.

    At next level, your familiar can go back to hiding, you've got an extra spell to use, and you can grab the Metal Curse hex.


    Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

    Here's my solution to the spell list problem. The shaman gains arcanist style spell preparation, using the cleric spell list. Spirit magic grants TWO spells prepared per spell level, but no additional slots. Each spirit's spell selection is heavily slanted toward at least one of the two spells being a druid spell. For instance, I might add faerie fire (1st) and flame blade (2nd) to the Battle spirit magic.

    Lantern Lodge

    Must say,

    I play tested a wind/life shaman at level 4 this weekend and it felt fairly weak compared to other classes at the table.

    I think the hexes/spirit powers need a bit of tweaking to even up the different spirit choices.

    The class was fun to roleplay, but mechanically it didn't feel exciting. I think the spontaneity of the class could do with upping. Perhaps you could spontaneously cast spirit spells from any spell slot - rather than getting one free spirit spell/level

    Grand Lodge

    Merck wrote:
    Hrothgar The Spirit Caller wrote:
    Spon cast druid = Oh god please no! I want a class that can actually do something with its spells... not just walk around saying "Sorry, don't know that spell. Will a cure light wounds or goodberry help?"
    In 3.5 together with wizards, druids were arguably the most overpowered class in the game and that have not changed too much in Pathfinder. By giving the class the druid list paizo is in no way doing the shamans a diservice in regard to power or utility. I have no ideia what you are talking about.

    You're talking about CODzilla. Cleric or Druid zilla.

    Why was CODZILLA strong? Because they had access to their entire spell list. They prepare what they want each day from a MASSIVE LIST.

    A SPON druid caster is horribly useless simply because it does not have access to the entire list, which is my point. Having a severely limited selection of spells each day destroys it.

    Its not DRUID that's the problem. Its SPONTANEOUS CASTING that is.

    See now?

    Still pushing for witch or hybrid.

    Shadow Lodge

    I'm with people on the witch list. As it stands it has the most appropriate spells, is one of the composite classes, and could just have some of the options added in. As it stands spells like haunting mists and mad hallucinations fit much better to a spirit caller then flame blade or good berry. After that all that would be needed is to just add some of the extra spells in that it's missing like animate dead and the protection spells which even exist in a lot of the patron options and could just be either ported over into the list proper or wrapped up in the spirits you choose.

    The other thing is that using the witch list would help tie the shaman back into its 2 parent classes since as it stands right now the shaman is basically related to the witch in name only and has more in common with a cleric/oracle & druid.


    Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path Subscriber

    After building and testing some shamans and reading the suggestions posted here, here are my two bits on the topic:

    Armor - Light (maybe add a hex to a spirit that grants medium)
    Weapons - Simple (maybe add a hex to a spirit that grants marital or some exotic weapons)
    BAB - 1/2
    Saves - Good Fort, Good Will

    Spell List - I like the druid spell list as a basis. The augmentation to this list based off of the spirits expands it in the appropriately thematic direction.

    Casting Type - A prepared spontaneous (charisma) caster based off the druid list would make for an interesting, dynamic, and different character when augmented with the spells provided by the spirits. The spells available each day would be chosen from the druid list at preparation, but the spells per day could be used to cast any of them spontaneously. The number of spells available each day could be 2 per class level, no spell level limitations (A level 5 shaman would have 10 spells they could prepare. They could select, for example, 4 level 1, 5 level 2, and 1 level 3, or 3 level 1, 3 level 2, and 4 level 3). The spells per day would be low, similar to the witch, with bonus spells from a high attribute.

    Spirit Magic - Add 2 to the shaman's spells per day for each level they can cast. The spirits also provide spells of their own according to each spirit to the shaman's prepared spells each day. Some additional spirits would probably need to be created to add the desired cleric spells to the list.

    Familiar - Keep the familiar, it serves as the vessel for the spirits.

    Wandering Spirits - This is a fantastic mechanic, but it should probably be accessed earlier (a low-level shaman is pretty awful at the moment). I would prefer to see all spirits be wandering, with a new spirit gained every 3 levels (1, 4, 7, 10, 13, 16, 19). The Shaman selects his spirits at the beginning of their daily preparation.

    Spirits - Change the spirit abilities into hexes and remove that particular aspect. Greater Spirit Ability could be turned into a Major Hex. True Spirit abilities are turned into Grand Hexes.

    Hexes - Each day, at the same time spells are prepared, the shaman can select the hexes available to them They may select 1 hex for each spirit, but need not select a hex from every spirit. The Extra Hex feat allows an additional hex to be selected. A Shaman gains a hex every other level beginning at level 2. Many of the witch's hexes could be added to various spirits.

    Major Hexes - at 10th level the major hexes for each spirit are available to be selected.

    Grand Hex - at 18th level the grand hexes for each spirit are available to be selected.

    Many of the hexes and current spirit abilities need a bit of work to make them balanced or useful. There are many of them which will currently never be selected since they are either completely overshadowed or not worth the limited resource slot.


    "Merck' wrote:


    Ok, why?

    You have asked for people to explain their point if view and they have. You may or may not agree with them. Now please explain yours.

    I've already explained it by mentioning the 'tragic misrepresentation of his kind', but I think this is a more explicit explanation:

    Cheapy wrote:


    My reason for wanting the cleric spell list is because it is hands down better at dealing with spirits, the thing the class is about.

    The Druid spell list can't really affect spirits anywhere near the same level, and it can't ward evil spirits off from locations.

    That's the canonical shaman-as-spirit-whisperer spell!

    Grand Lodge

    Aside from the Shaman being very verstaile, they are simultaneously Spontaneous & Non-Spontaneous as a caster.

    Spirit Magic: A Shaman can spontaneously cast a limited number of spells per day beyond those she prepared ahead of time. She has one spell slot per day of each spell level she can cast, not including orisons. She can choose these spells from the list of spells granted by her spirits (Spirit and Wandering Spirit)...

    Making the Shaman a full-time spontaneous caster is a bad idea. Because not only what was mentioned before but, because then you have to fix Spirit Magic, get rid of the Familiar, take out in each Spirit Section what the Familiar gets (IE Stone gives the Familiar DR 5/Adamantine at 1st level).


    ~Eztli~ wrote:

    Aside from the Shaman being very verstaile, they are simultaneously Spontaneous & Non-Spontaneous as a caster.

    Spirit Magic: A Shaman can spontaneously cast a limited number of spells per day beyond those she prepared ahead of time. She has one spell slot per day of each spell level she can cast, not including orisons. She can choose these spells from the list of spells granted by her spirits (Spirit and Wandering Spirit)...

    Yes, you can spontaneously cast your spirit magic spells. Which is to say, two spells ever, one of which is locked in at first level, and both of which are drawn from a less-than-impressive selection. Functionally, it's almost identical to clerics and their domain spell slots; the difference being that you can switch spirits day-to-day, but also that there are far less spirits than there are domains.

    Quote:
    Making the Shaman a full-time spontaneous caster is a bad idea. Because not only what was mentioned before but, because then you have to fix Spirit Magic, get rid of the Familiar, take out in each Spirit Section what the Familiar gets (IE Stone gives the Familiar DR 5/Adamantine at 1st level).

    I don't see why spontaneous casting demands removing the familiar. Replace the witch-style "commune with familiar each morning to prepare spells" with "commune with familiar each morning to refresh spell slots". Same familiar-dependent flavor, but on a spontaneous caster chassis.


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    I see we are debating terminology again. What count as spirits? Between how they are mechanically defined in d20-based books (including some 3pp Pathfinder products), it seems like:

    incorporeal undead (spirits of the dead/ancestors)

    fey and elementals (spirits of the land/nature)

    And then other stuff is up for grabs, depending on whether you want to count astral entities projecting, non-undead that are naturally incorporeal, outsiders, or whatever, plus anything specifically defined as a spirit that may not fit these other categories, for whatever reason (I could see Princess Mononoke style magical beasts being considered spirits, especially with some of the comparisons in fluff I've seen between shaman spirits and kami in discussions).

    In terms of stories outside D&D, whether fiction or mythology, it seems pretty frequent, if not universal, that spirits are basically ghosts/ancestors and land/elemental creatures or god-like representations of animals.

    If we want to preserve that flavor, there does need to be some hybridizing in the spell list, whether it amounts to giving one class's and additions from another, or whatever. I think witch would be the closest to covering it without making a new list or needing to mash together cleric and druid - because it is a spell list that has already been hybridized plus it includes some of its own elements. If it's between druid and cleric spells, I think druid is the best as a thematic base and then the "spirit" spells that people believe are necessary but lacking from druids can come from clerics/oracles.

    Heals, buffs, debuffs, wards, weather, interaction with other elements, divination, psychology/enchantment/mind-based effects, inspiration/knowledge, language/poetry and/or literacy/writing, some offense - whether derived from another category or separately, and shapechanging (plenty of shamanic material deals with physical or spiritual shapechanging) probably cover a good portion of a shaman's kit. In an animist worldview, potentially anything could have a spirit, so there is really a multitude of possible spirit types out there, which means a shaman could theoretically do a wealth of things, but there is a theme/flavor to how they do it and that usually focuses around these ideas.

    edit: cut a large chunk about flavor issues for space/relevance.

    Dark Archive

    mplindustries wrote:

    That's right, because the Bloodrager uses the Sorcerer list.

    Or is it that he's a Barbarian/Magus?

    It should have used the Sor/Wiz list from the get go. Again, I can see why they went with Magus, but as a Barbarian/Sorcerer it should not have used that list.


    Cheapy wrote:

    My reason for wanting the cleric spell list is because it is hands down better at dealing with spirits, the thing the class is about.

    The cleric list is better at extraplanar and afterlife spirits. The druid list is better at animal, land, and natural spirits.

    Considering that shaman familiars are (mostly) animal based, it appears that animal spirits are "the thing class is about".

    That's the way I interpret it.

    I think there is a relatively benign way to match the devs no-custom-spell-list thought with the popular idea of a custom spell list. Create a short list of spells to add automatically to the spirit's spontaneous spell list.

    Such as...

    1st - Protection From XXX
    2nd - Augury
    3rd - Magic Circle of Protection
    etc.


    Yeah, I'm just having a lot of trouble treating undead and outsiders as "spirits." I accept they need Protection from Evil, Augury, Spiritual Weapon, etc. but I think undead and outsiders are kind of as opposite to spirits as one could get.

    I still think a custom list is needed.

    And for what it's worth, I don't like the witch list. Having played a witch, I was constantly disappointed in my spells. I rarely used any of them--I think I cast some cure spells a couple of times, daily personal buffs, and yeah, that's about it other than my patron spells (which were not on the witch list). As a witch, it was all about the Hexes and I found myself kind of wishing I could trade my spells for more Hexes.

    The Revelations, er, I mean, "Hexes" that a Shaman has are not strong enough to carry a class like a witch's Hexes are, so I don't think using the Witch list is going to be good in the end.

    And the Witch, by the way, still misses out on a great deal of the nature magic that I think is essential from the Druid list.


    Merck wrote:
    While the shaman have one spirit power at first level the cleric have two domain powers plus channel energy. The oracle have equivalent mysteries and revelations with more spells per day and no familiar spellbook to be targeted. They get the cure spells known for free and their curse is not only penalities, it also buffs them.

    Like I said, I'll give you that a cleric with two strong domains might have an edge until the second spirit comes online. I'm personally not nuts about channel energy, since in-combat healing is generally a poor use of actions and resources and out-of-combat healing is better accomplished by the party pooling their money on a wand. It's good against undead, I guess, but that's a pretty situational advantage.

    The oracle's mysteries don't give any spells until second level, the oracle doesn't have access to all the spell on its list, and the oracle gets new spell levels after the Shaman will. Before you hit level four, most of the curses give pretty pathetic buffs. Deafness is an exception, but its penalties are pretty steep, too.

    Merck wrote:
    Confusion curse is very good but a Lore shaman is probably the MADdest class in the game right now, making one on a 15 point buy can be an exercise in frustration. Heavens oracle also gets said spells as the heavens shaman plus awesome display which allows them to still be relevant at later levels.

    How so? You need wisdom and charisma and basically nothing else. Intelligence for the arcane spells is nice, but you don't really need to start with much there since you'll automatically get a bonus to your int. I'd put fourteen in wisdom (assuming a floating +2 goes here), fourteen in charisma, twelve in intelligence, twelve in either constitution or dexterity, and eleven in strength. Maybe it's just that I came up on 3d6 instead of 4d6b3 and point-buy, but I'm not seeing the frustration.

    (Battle Shaman is pretty ridiculous, though, since it should have good physical stats and still needs wisdom and charisma. I agree with whoever said to give it an ability bonus instead of that healing ability it gets.)

    Heavens oracles are still oracles and thus have a limited amount of known spells, which is a pretty big deal. Moreover, they don't get color spray until second level, which makes level one rougher, and awesome display doesn't make patterns relevant later, it makes them relevant against larger groups; rainbow pattern is going to be largely obsolete because it's mind-affecting long before it's obsolete because of the HD cap.
    Besides, if we're going to talk about being relevant later, Heavens Shaman gets more bonus spells, stops needing to breathe, and gets a free prismatic wall once per day. Oh, and it gets to add all but the capstone of a second spirit which the Shaman may then change day-to-day depending on its needs.

    I'll maybe try a 1:1 comparison by running them through the same playtest, later, but neither my experience with the Shaman nor the way it looks on paper makes me think being underpowered is a worry.


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    doc the grey wrote:

    I'm with people on the witch list. As it stands it has the most appropriate spells, is one of the composite classes, and could just have some of the options added in. As it stands spells like haunting mists and mad hallucinations fit much better to a spirit caller then flame blade or good berry. After that all that would be needed is to just add some of the extra spells in that it's missing like animate dead and the protection spells which even exist in a lot of the patron options and could just be either ported over into the list proper or wrapped up in the spirits you choose.

    The other thing is that using the witch list would help tie the shaman back into its 2 parent classes since as it stands right now the shaman is basically related to the witch in name only and has more in common with a cleric/oracle & druid.

    Witch spell sounds good.


    mplindustries wrote:


    I still think a custom list is needed.

    +1


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    I for one am not looking for a "spontaneous Druid"...in fact that would more or less make me loose complete interest in the class.

    I do however think that a spontaneous casting mechanic would work well for the Shaman.
    It would be interesting for him to have spell slots per day based on level....but no spells known of his own.

    He would gain "spell known" from the spirits bonded to him.
    All the customization anyone could want would be built right into which spirits where chosen....

    Want more of a new age "animal totem" feel...pick the nature spirit.
    Want to focus on healing, pick the life spirit.
    Want to deal with that pesky wraith that's been troubling your clan folk, ask the spirits of your ancestors for a hand.

    For this to work the number of spirits a shaman could bond with each day would need to be increased, probably to around 5 by 20th level...but again that fit's the definition of what a shaman is.

    I would rather do away with the fixed spirit at first level, and see an increase in how many spirits he can call to his aid on any given day increase as he gains levels.


    I propose that the Shaman spell list be a combination of the Cleric and Druid spell lists, that way all "spirits" are used.


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    Kekkres wrote:

    that has given me an idea for a revision of the shaman that i have instantly fallen in love with.

    As follows: the shamans have their own spell list but it is VERY sparten and bare bones with very little to work with as a base. they are spontanious and charisma based.

    All shamans start play with a totem/fetish. this serves as their connection to the spirits and works as both divine focus and spellbook, a shaman who looses her totem/fetish looses acess to her spirits.

    spirits would be reworked rather drastically, you start with 1 spirit and gain another one every 3-4 levels. each spirit would provide 15 or so additional spells to the shamans spell list and a few minor powers. in addition each spirit can "manifest" which would be a powerful spirit specific ability. however a shaman can only ask her spirits (collectively) to manifest 1+cha times per day.

    VERY close to what I have been thinking...

    I don't really want to see a spellbook...most cultures with specalists that fall into the "shaman" category are oral cultures.

    But if the shaman was required to make a "spirit vessel" for each of his spirits...that would be very cool in my opinion.

    It could be as simple as the skull or even the tooth of an ancestor or animal that he carries....THEN you have shaman flavor.
    Instead of the little built in twitch to the familiar for each spirit, something could be added to each talisman.

    I have no problem with them being Charisma based...it fit's both in regards to being able to charm the spirits into assisting them, as well as they way they can effect living mortals.

    If the spirit defines the spells known...it kind of renders the whole argument of which spell list to use, or the hassle of creating a large spell list unique to the shaman...a small selection of thematically tied spells for each spirit would provide the entire spell list.


    *waves archetype-based Druid or Oracle casting option temptingly*

    I would love it if Shaman could use one or the other, mutually exclusively. People focus on different kinds of "spirits", but for most interpretations, one list or the other will do a good job. We have a Nature option so a Oracle list can do some Druid things, add some sort of Spirits/Ancestors/Occult option so Druid list could do some Oracle things. It's a heck of an archetype, but Stonelord ditches casting entirely for Paladin, and White-Haired Witch loses all hexes. Might be a little much to ask for, though.


    nighttree wrote:

    It would be interesting for him to have spell slots per day based on level....but no spells known of his own.

    He would gain "spell known" from the spirits bonded to him.
    All the customization anyone could want would be built right into which spirits where chosen....

    The spell lists for each spirit would need to be considerably larger for this to work. I'm not saying it couldn't work, just that it would necessitate other modifications.


    mplindustries wrote:
    Yeah, I'm just having a lot of trouble treating undead and outsiders as "spirits." I accept they need Protection from Evil, Augury, Spiritual Weapon, etc. but I think undead and outsiders are kind of as opposite to spirits as one could get.

    Outsiders in particular are the very definition of spirits...beings not composed of, or within the normal stream of mortal existence.

    Take the Kami for example...they are a perfect example of "spirits".
    And they are outsiders...as are the Einherji... brave mortals who have fallen in battle, and continue to fight on after death.

    By the same token, undead are the "dark" side of the same concept, either spirits that have stuck around to seek revenge, or simply refused to give up their mortal existence.

    In Arabic cultures..Jinn (genie types) are all considered spirits, and they are again...outsiders as far as "game mechanics" are concerned.

    I think you have been given a rather "shoe box" impression of what constitutes "spirit", and as a result it's hard for you to see anything outside of that as fitting thematically.

    EDIT: Didn't mean for that to come across harsh...if it did, my apologies ;)


    Knifechief wrote:
    nighttree wrote:

    It would be interesting for him to have spell slots per day based on level....but no spells known of his own.

    He would gain "spell known" from the spirits bonded to him.
    All the customization anyone could want would be built right into which spirits where chosen....

    The spell lists for each spirit would need to be considerably larger for this to work. I'm not saying it couldn't work, just that it would necessitate other modifications.

    It would depend on how his progression went in regards to how many spirits he could bond with...I'm actually going to play around with that tonight and see what would happen.

    But based on one spell of each level, per spirit...you can actually build up a pretty good number of spells known (actually faster than a Sorcerer of equal level).

    Sovereign Court

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    i still see nothin from the druid list that is shamanistic besides their elemental spells. shamans are not a nature class. taming wild animals and plants is not spiritual.

    i vote for its own list, but if we cant then cleric list is the better option. they just lackthe offensive spells a shaman should have.

    spells aside
    bab=1/2
    saves fort/wis=good reflex=bad
    familiars should either be companion or gain strength as the shaman lvls

    hex's either need to be a lil more common thru-out lvl progression or shamans need some kind of bonus feats to enhance their hex's. only bein able to hex an ally once a day is weak if u dont have more hex's to use.

    armor/weapons are good where they r. med/simple

    skills should exclude fly/ride but include use magic device knowledge history

    on a selfish note i wouldnt mind seein true spirit useable earlier so that it see's action in society maybe lvl 10-12 area and 16-18 for wandering. theyneed a better lvl 20 ability maybe dual manifest or somethin.


    I haven't been following this thread, so forgive me if I go over some points others have already brought up. I'm working on a play test right now and wanted to give some of my initial feedback on the Shaman.

    To start off, I really like the mechanics. I find the combination of a Primary and Secondary spirit interesting and I like the flexibility of swapping out the second spirit each day. It keeps the class versatile and and lets you adapt to changing campaigns. I also like getting the Druid spell list over the Cleric spell list. It's a very versatile group of spells to have access to.

    I did find the class mechanics somewhat confusing on the first read through. You really need to keep looking at the class tables as you're reading over the abilities. I also wonder why the class doesn't get a Hex at first level. With just 2 first level spells a Shaman doesn't have a lot that it can do that first level. I also really hope that Extra Hex is available to the class.

    The class is really really MAD, which is a problem for low-point buy. This is actually where being a full caster is a little worrisome, as you'll eventually need at least 19 Wisdom and can't really dump Intelligence or Charisma with a caster build. I found that melee builds either need to choose to either Dervish Dance or go with a Strength Build with Heavy Armor.

    I really would like 2 or 3 more Spirits available. We have ten total, which would be a nice start if the four elemental spirits weren't so similar to one another. Personally I'd add Ancestors, Occult and Time as they'd help flesh out your options a bit more. Ancestors and Occult in particular are mysteries that involve communication with spirits.

    For the most part I think the class is really well put together. I have some specific quibbles with individual spirits, but I'll wait for the revised play test before I go into those.


    I would love a spontaneous caster druid.

    Spirits could be fey, outsiders, incorporeal undead, some dragons, some magical beast, elementals, or just a subtype.


    nighttree wrote:

    I for one am not looking for a "spontaneous Druid"...in fact that would more or less make me loose complete interest in the class.

    I do however think that a spontaneous casting mechanic would work well for the Shaman.
    It would be interesting for him to have spell slots per day based on level....but no spells known of his own.

    He would gain "spell known" from the spirits bonded to him.
    All the customization anyone could want would be built right into which spirits where chosen....

    Want more of a new age "animal totem" feel...pick the nature spirit.
    Want to focus on healing, pick the life spirit.
    Want to deal with that pesky wraith that's been troubling your clan folk, ask the spirits of your ancestors for a hand.

    For this to work the number of spirits a shaman could bond with each day would need to be increased, probably to around 5 by 20th level...but again that fit's the definition of what a shaman is.

    I would rather do away with the fixed spirit at first level, and see an increase in how many spirits he can call to his aid on any given day increase as he gains levels.

    This actually sounds really awesome. If they were reluctant to build an individual spell list before, I don't know how much this idea will go over, but it sounds very cool.

    If I were to rate my personal preference of the lists being discussed in this thread it would look something like this:

    spirit-dependent custom>custom>cleric>witch>druid.........unless the witch casting swapped it from WIS to INT casting, then I would move it ahead of the cleric list.


    Sitri wrote:
    nighttree wrote:

    I for one am not looking for a "spontaneous Druid"...in fact that would more or less make me loose complete interest in the class.

    I do however think that a spontaneous casting mechanic would work well for the Shaman.
    It would be interesting for him to have spell slots per day based on level....but no spells known of his own.

    He would gain "spell known" from the spirits bonded to him.
    All the customization anyone could want would be built right into which spirits where chosen....

    Want more of a new age "animal totem" feel...pick the nature spirit.
    Want to focus on healing, pick the life spirit.
    Want to deal with that pesky wraith that's been troubling your clan folk, ask the spirits of your ancestors for a hand.

    For this to work the number of spirits a shaman could bond with each day would need to be increased, probably to around 5 by 20th level...but again that fit's the definition of what a shaman is.

    I would rather do away with the fixed spirit at first level, and see an increase in how many spirits he can call to his aid on any given day increase as he gains levels.

    This actually sounds really awesome. If they were reluctant to build an individual spell list before, I don't know how much this idea will go over, but it sounds very cool.

    If I were to rate my personal preference of the lists being discussed in this thread it would look something like this:

    spirit-dependent custom>custom>cleric>witch>druid.........unless the witch casting swapped it from WIS to INT casting, then I would move it ahead of the cleric list.

    +1


    Sitri wrote:

    This actually sounds really awesome. If they were reluctant to build an individual spell list before, I don't know how much this idea will go over, but it sounds very cool.

    If I were to rate my personal preference of the lists being discussed in this thread it would look something like this:

    spirit-dependent custom>custom>cleric>witch>druid.........unless the witch casting swapped it from WIS to INT casting, then I would move it ahead of the cleric list.

    That's the beauty of it.....they already provide spells with each spirit...chosen from all available spell lists.

    This would allow each shaman to build a spell list based on the spirits they chose to bond with.
    If you want a more "Druid" type list, choose spirits that offer spells from that list. If you want a more "witchy" spell list, choose spirits that draw from those. If they took some of the witch patrons and fleshed them out as well...you have access to spells from every available spell list, and can customize your shaman for both the specific AP and his culture.


    nighttree wrote:
    But based on one spell of each level, per spirit...you can actually build up a pretty good number of spells known (actually faster than a Sorcerer of equal level).

    Assuming new spirits are gained at 1/5/10/15/20, you'd know a single spell of each level until you hit level five. Later on it would outpace a sorcerer, but the early levels would be completely crippled unless you add a lot in the way of hexes and spirit abilities.

    Javaed wrote:
    The class is really really MAD, which is a problem for low-point buy. This is actually where being a full caster is a little worrisome, as you'll eventually need at least 19 Wisdom and can't really dump Intelligence or Charisma with a caster build. I found that melee builds either need to choose to either Dervish Dance or go with a Strength Build with Heavy Armor.

    It's pretty easy to build a successful caster Shaman with 15 point-buy and it only gets easier as you add more points or open up more races. I mean, for one, clerics get by just fine without free spells from the sorc/wizard list, so you can dump intelligence and be a perfectly acceptable caster. Secondly, you only need to start with twelve in intelligence if you are going for arcane spells, since the lore spirit gives an inherent bonus and you can afford a +2 intelligence item by the time you will need one.


    nighttree wrote:

    Outsiders in particular are the very definition of spirits...beings not composed of, or within the normal stream of mortal existence.

    Take the Kami for example...they are a perfect example of "spirits".
    And they are outsiders...as are the Einherji... brave mortals who have fallen in battle, and continue to fight on after death.

    By the same token, undead are the "dark" side of the same concept, either spirits that have stuck around to seek revenge, or simply refused to give up their mortal existence.

    In Arabic cultures..Jinn (genie types) are all considered spirits, and they are again...outsiders as far as "game mechanics" are concerned.

    I think you have been given a rather "shoe box" impression of what constitutes "spirit", and as a result it's hard for you to see anything outside of that as fitting thematically.

    EDIT: Didn't mean for that to come across harsh...if it did, my apologies ;)

    I think the real issue is that I just really dislike the cosmology of the game world and have played with my own for so long, I've developed a different idea of what fits and what doesn't.

    I'm actually running a game right now with a huge focus on spirits--but they're not undead and their not angel/demons. Druids and Oracles are basically filing the "shaman" role, since the game started well before this playtest. Elementals are just part of the natural world. In fact, the setting includes a feature that totally prevents all kinds of interdimensional magic (it pretty much just affects summoning and teleporting).

    Kami fit as spirits, but the idea that they are statted out outsiders bothers me to no end. Jinn are great spirit types, but it bothers me that elementals are outsiders, too.

    I guess just don't mind me on this issue because I'm not going to like it.


    Do we have any lore basis on what the Spirit Totem Rage Powers' Spirits are or where they're from?
    They seem pretty similar to the 'whispy things that fly around and moan at people'.
    They happen to deal Negative Energy damage, which is slightly more likely to be something Undead related, I suppose, but otherwise, they seem to fit the same sort of ambiguous 'Spirit' ideal.
    Maybe we can find some sort of precedent in the lore related to this, or potentially even get the ability's dev to shed some light on what they had in mind. That could speak volumes then as to what the Shaman is supposed to deal with.


    PlagueCrafter wrote:

    Do we have any lore basis on what the Spirit Totem Rage Powers' Spirits are or where they're from?

    They seem pretty similar to the 'whispy things that fly around and moan at people'.
    They happen to deal Negative Energy damage, which is slightly more likely to be something Undead related, I suppose, but otherwise, they seem to fit the same sort of ambiguous 'Spirit' ideal.
    Maybe we can find some sort of precedent in the lore related to this, or potentially even get the ability's dev to shed some light on what they had in mind. That could speak volumes then as to what the Shaman is supposed to deal with.

    The Spirit Totem rage power is a perfect example of what I think of as spirits--they cannot be affected or interacted with in any way whatsoever. You can't hit them, cast spells on them, touch them--all you can do is get hurt by them.


    mplindustries wrote:
    PlagueCrafter wrote:

    Do we have any lore basis on what the Spirit Totem Rage Powers' Spirits are or where they're from?

    They seem pretty similar to the 'whispy things that fly around and moan at people'.
    They happen to deal Negative Energy damage, which is slightly more likely to be something Undead related, I suppose, but otherwise, they seem to fit the same sort of ambiguous 'Spirit' ideal.
    Maybe we can find some sort of precedent in the lore related to this, or potentially even get the ability's dev to shed some light on what they had in mind. That could speak volumes then as to what the Shaman is supposed to deal with.
    The Spirit Totem rage power is a perfect example of what I think of as spirits--they cannot be affected or interacted with in any way whatsoever. You can't hit them, cast spells on them, touch them--all you can do is get hurt by them.

    You can dispel them with an Antimagic field however.


    Scavion wrote:
    Then is the Shaman subbing for the Wizard's place on the team Zark?

    No, never said such a thing or even implied it. My idea was druid list + cleric list and give it 1/2 BAB and D6 HD and light armor.

    Scavion wrote:


    Because before switching to the Druid list, the Shaman could be an able replacement for the Cleric. Now that is much less possible due to lack of prevention spells. And Condition removal. Druids don't get Restoration at all =(

    People have been using Druids instead of clerics and it has worked out fine. (We tried it once but we decided to get a Cleric cohort since the druid player wasn’t very experienced.). It is even easier now with life mystery.

    Scavion wrote:

    Also "Dont worry" about all the spells the Wizard might have? I don't know many wizards who purchased the various protection and magic armament spells. And the Sorcerer isn't going to have them because thats silly.

    Please stop putting words ion my mouth. If you can’t bother reading my posts, don’t respond to them. I said that anyone can get potion of Protection from evil or magic weapon and Greater magic weapon and magic Vestment both suck. If you do want them, all these spells are on the wizard list so they can use them as scrolls (or cast them). The party can even get some scrolls with magic circle against evil and let the arcane caster cast it.

    If Devs chose the Druid list I think the spells that hurt most not getting will be Magic circle against evil, speak with dead and all divination spells.

    Scavion wrote:


    How do you feel about the Shaman being a Spontaneous caster? .

    At first I liked the Idea, but I flip flopping. I really feel the shaman should be using wisdom as casting stat, because that is one of the most common concepts of the Shaman. A wise person in tune with nature. I also think Druid list + Spontaneous caster is more problematic since they don’t get the cure spells for free.

    Scavion wrote:

    Honestly the Shaman is just looking like a Druid with Domains.

    Nonsens.

    The original shaman was just an oracle with hexes and a familia. If the new shaman gets the druid lists it becomes an class with druid list, 2 mysteries and hexes and a familiar.

    Sovereign Court

    did i miss the point where they switched the shaman to a druid list?


    Sarvei taeno wrote:
    did i miss the point where they switched the shaman to a druid list?

    No, they said they were considering it and some people think that meant official change.


    Zark wrote:
    No, never said such a thing or even implied it. My idea was druid list + cleric list and give it 1/2 BAB and D6 HD and light armor.

    I meant in a traditional 4 man band you generally have a cleric, wizard, fighter, rogue. If the Cleric isn't being replaced, who is it? The Wizard? I know you didn't imply it, but when we think of a class where does said class fit? If the Shaman is handling the battlefield control and utility, having a wizard is a bit redundant. Likewise if the Shaman can take care of damage prevention and condition removal then having a Cleric is somewhat redundant. I actually really like the idea of a full on caster with both lists.

    Zark wrote:
    Please stop putting words ion my mouth. If you can’t bother reading my posts, don’t respond to them. I said that anyone can get potion of Protection from evil or magic weapon and Greater magic weapon and magic Vestment both suck. If you do want them, all these spells are on the wizard list so they can use them as scrolls (or cast them). The party can even get some scrolls with magic circle against evil and let the arcane caster cast it.

    I apologize. I find not a whole lot of folks use loads and loads of consumables and Protection from Evil is really nice to have on hand even at the high levels in a few low level slots. Magic Vestment is underrated =) It lets you load up on special qualities while continuing to boost your AC. Magic Weapon likewise.

    Zark wrote:

    Nonsens[e].

    The original shaman was just an oracle with hexes and a familia[r]. If the new shaman gets the druid lists it becomes an class with druid list, 2 mysteries and hexes and a familiar.

    I have to disagree with you here. I feel like the Shaman may be getting too many class features here. As it stands it has:

    Domains(Domains in that they grant you an extra spell but better since you get to pick on the fly during the day, if they were just Mysteries I'd be a bit happier but they're getting the extra spell too. And they can prepare those spells in their slots unlike a Cleric.)
    Revelations/Hexes(Read, loads of class features, 5 total comparable to and greater in power to Domain Powers)
    Have Access to Channel Energy
    Even moreso with the Druid list capable of CoDzilla antics.
    Tops it off with a Familiar.

    As I mentioned in an earlier post, I'm seeing less and less of a reason to play a Cleric ever again. Protection from Blank seems to be the only thing going for it and those can be grabbed by Arcane Casters.

    I find myself wanting the class to be spontaneous and limited by spells known if only to keep it in check.

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