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This is one of the reasons goblins scare the pants off of me at low levels. The generic goblin warriors with no ranks in Stealth at all have +10 to Stealth and shortbows. Taking 10 on their Stealth checks means they can pepper you from 60 ft (+1 / 10 ft.) means you'd need to hit a DC 26-27 Perception DC to notice them ambushing you before you're ready to get shot at without penalties. And if they all focus fire on you, those little 1d4 shortbows actually hurt at low.Is there something specific about Goblin that is essential to your build? It just seems a bit counter-productive to take a -CHA race when you then have to buy your way back out of the deficit...
My apologies Lamontius, I missed this post.
Goblins are effectively a +10 to my Stealth check alone. That buys my Hellcat Stealth penalty immediately.
If you know a better method, by all means let me know oh my god I forgot Skill Focus (Stealth).
I debated long and hard whether I wanted him to be a halfling. I really like Goblins heh.
If we assume that Goblins are intellectually capable of something as advanced and attention-heavy as taking 10 on any check apart from eating and picking your nose, and I'm not sure about the last one.
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Made room for the Luckstone, took a hit to my AC. Forgot to add size modifiers. Saves are 2 higher along with all ability and skill checks.
** spoiler omitted **
I have to admit these stealth-centric builds are really terrible to behold. It's really, really hard to stop them when they aren't relying on tricks like invisibility. Give 'em cover or concealment and watch them murder stuff like the predator.
Hellcat Stealth is just gross, and goblin is essentially the perfect race for this on top of it all (+4 size, +4 racial, +2 dex modifier; though much respect for the fact you don't have to be a goblin to make it work).
Adding an elixir of hiding against particularly difficult foes is probably a great idea.
The biggest pain about this build is how difficult it is to stop. Given the ability to remain very mobile you basically need glitterdust or faerie fire specifically, readied to shoot, when the stealth-guy makes an appearance for offense (assuming the stealth-guy doesn't snipe you and milk range incremental bonuses on top of it).
While I think the Stealthing thing could be done better by a Bard or perhaps even a Ranger, the sneak attack helps to take fairly solid pot-shots at enemies with relative impunity. It would be pretty solid for pestering spellcasters with as well.
My only concern is what happens when the trick is foiled (and it can be foiled, it's just really difficult to do since things like see invisibility, true seeing, and so forth do bubkis to stop it).
When the Trick gets foiled, thats when you run away with Benny Hill playing in the background. Or buy a ring of Invisibility and just overwrite the penalty. Booya countered! Super Stealth for the win!
This is slightly better with a ranged weapon too just in case.
I'd also like a Wand of Scorching Ray and one of Elemental Touch.
If we assume that Goblins are intellectually capable of something as advanced and attention-heavy as taking 10 on any check apart from eating and picking your nose, and I'm not sure about the last one.
Taking 10 doesn't take anything special. Also, while Golarion goblins are made out to be rather handicapped little jokes their statistics don't really back that up.
When we look at goblins we see this.
Goblin warrior 1
NE Small humanoid (goblinoid)
Init +6; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception –1
Defense
AC 16, touch 13, flat-footed 14 (+2 armor, +2 Dex, +1 shield, +1 size)
hp 6 (1d10+1)
Fort +3, Ref +2, Will –1
Offense
Speed 30 ft.
Melee short sword +2 (1d4/19–20)
Ranged short bow +4 (1d4/×3)
Statistics
Str 11, Dex 15, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 9, Cha 6
Base Atk +1; CMB +0; CMD 12
Feats Improved Initiative
Skills Ride +10, Stealth +10, Swim +4; Racial Modifiers +4 Ride, +4 Stealth
Languages Goblin
Ecology
Environment temperate forest and plains (usually coastal regions)
Organization gang (4–9), warband (10–16 with goblin dog mounts), or tribe (17+ plus 100% noncombatants; 1 sergeant of 3rd level per 20 adults; 1 or 2 lieutenants of 4th or 5th level; 1 leader of 6th–8th level; and 10–40 goblin dogs, wolves, or worgs)Treasure NPC gear (leather armor, light wooden shield, short sword, short bow with 20 arrows, other treasure)
These guys are dangerous and worth every experience point when compared to their rivals like orcs.
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We be Goblins, You be food.
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If we assume that Goblins are intellectually capable of something as advanced and attention-heavy as taking 10 on any check apart from eating and picking your nose, and I'm not sure about the last one.Taking 10 doesn't take anything special. Also, while Golarion goblins are made out to be rather handicapped little jokes their statistics don't really back that up.
When we look at goblins we see this.
These guys are dangerous and worth every experience point when compared to their rivals like orcs.Goblin warrior 1
NE Small humanoid (goblinoid)
Init +6; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception –1
Defense
AC 16, touch 13, flat-footed 14 (+2 armor, +2 Dex, +1 shield, +1 size)
hp 6 (1d10+1)
Fort +3, Ref +2, Will –1
Offense
Speed 30 ft.
Melee short sword +2 (1d4/19–20)
Ranged short bow +4 (1d4/×3)
Statistics
Str 11, Dex 15, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 9, Cha 6
Base Atk +1; CMB +0; CMD 12
Feats Improved Initiative
Skills Ride +10, Stealth +10, Swim +4; Racial Modifiers +4 Ride, +4 Stealth
Languages Goblin
Ecology
Environment temperate forest and plains (usually coastal regions)
Organization gang (4–9), warband (10–16 with goblin dog mounts), or tribe (17+ plus 100% noncombatants; 1 sergeant of 3rd level per 20 adults; 1 or 2 lieutenants of 4th or 5th level; 1 leader of 6th–8th level; and 10–40 goblin dogs, wolves, or worgs)Treasure NPC gear (leather armor, light wooden shield, short sword, short bow with 20 arrows, other treasure)
That's your old problem there, Ash. All you see is stats.
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That's your old problem there, Ash. All you see is stats.
That's like telling a physicist that his problem is he sees math. Nothing about goblins actually fits the Golarion-based fluff. In fact, them being stupid isn't even mentioned in the bestiary.
Goblins prefer to dwell in caves, amid large and dense thickets of thistles and brambles, or in structures built and then abandoned by others. Very few goblins have the drive to build structures of their own. Coastlines are favored, as goblins are quite fond of sifting through junk and flotsam in an unending quest to find treasures among the refuse of more civilized races.
Goblin hatred runs deep, and few things inspire their wrath more than gnomes (who have long fought against goblins), horses (who frighten goblins tremendously), and regular dogs (whom goblins regard as pale imitations of goblin dogs).
Goblins are also quite superstitious, and treat magic with a fawning mixture of awe and fear. They have the habit of ascribing magic to the mundane as well, with fire and writing both taking on mystical power in goblin society. Fire is much loved by goblins for its capacity to wreak great destruction and because it doesn't require size or strength to wield, but written words are hated. Goblins believe that writing steals words out of your head, and as a result of this belief, goblins are universally illiterate.
Goblins are voracious and can eat their body weight in food daily without growing fat. Goblin lairs always have numerous storerooms and larders. While they prefer human and gnome flesh, a goblin won't turn down any food—except, perhaps, vegetables.
When you have creatures wielding shortbows, with warrior levels, wearing and using armor, with high Stealth scores, and nothing suggesting that they should be dumb, I'm going to look at them and see armed dudes that are going to ambush somebody. Especially when they're no dumber than dwarfs by all accounts.
I see much more than stats. I just won't see what facts tell me is false.
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...I'm going to make our goal here as clear as possible. We wish to make a rogue (PURE rogue) that can perform roguish functions while dealing enough damage in combat to be on par with his spellcasting peers (bards, aclehmists, etc.). We do not want to surpass them as that may prove more difficult than it's worth...
TarkXT, this is an excellent thread, but I believe at least 50% of the people went off the beaten path or provided an incomplete build. I want to prove that you can build a rogue that is roguelike and deadly and does not feel like a 5th wheel. Now this character does not have trapfinding...this is a party support striker through and through.
This character focuses on sneak attack as much as possible, does NOT rely on stealth as a primary vehicle and is also a very defensively-minded character when needed. She gains both Another Day and Improved Evasion by 12th level, and by 8th is using use magic device for wands and scrolls as a smart rogue with good efficacy.
She will be able to sneak attack people with 20% concealment as well, and can use see invisibility when needed. Surprise!
How does this rogue sneak attack?
Opponent is flat-footed
Rogue flanks opponent with ally (Two-Weapon fighting increases the number of attacks)
Rogue charges opponent (from level 4)
Rogue feints as a move action (from level 5)
Rogue feints as part of full attack with Two-Weapon Feint (from level 7)
Rogue moves 10+ feet before attacking (from level 8)
Rogue declares a quarry once per day, sneak attacks for two rounds (from level 12)
Sneak attack effects
d8 dagger (d4 all others) every odd level
does 1 point of bleed damage with every die of sneak attack (from level 6)
If 2 sneak attacks hit the same opponent in one round, the opponent automatically takes 2d6 bleed in addition to the 1 bleed for every die of sneak attack (in this case, 8) (from 16th)
Total bleed on a sneak attack crit at 16th level is 2d6+8 bleed
Critical Effects
Crit on a 19-20/x2 with daggers
+4 to confirm crits (from level 13)
Opponent takes 2d6 additional bleed (from level 15)
The build:
Choose Human, starting scores (20 point buy):
Str 12, Dex 18, Con 14, Int 13, Wis 10, Cha 10
The +2 from Human went into Dex, obviously.
Arliss' Rogue Knife Master/Scout Levels 1-16
Alternate Racial Traits (note this is for a cold-based campaign)
Focused Study (gain skill focus at 1, 8 and 16th but lose starting bonus feat)
Heart of the Snows (Heart of the Snows Humans born in chilly climes treat cold climates as one category less severe.
They gain a +2 racial bonus on Fortitude saving throws against the effects of cold climates, on any check or saving throw to avoid slipping and falling,
and to CMD against trip combat maneuvers. This bonus applies on Acrobatics and Climb checks made in slippery conditions. This racial trait replaces skilled.)
Traits
Defensive Strategist (Religion-Torag) You are not flat-footed when you are an unaware combatant, including surprise rounds
River Rat (+1 trait damage to daggers, +1 trait bonus to swim, swim is always a class skill)
*Carefully Hidden (+1 to will saves, +2 vs. divination spells)
*if your DM supports Drawbacks, take a drawback to qualify for a this third trait.
Feats:
LVL Feat and/or Talent
1 Two-Weapon Fighting
<Skill Focus: Bluff>
2 Rogue Talent: Finesse Rogue
3 Combat Expertise
4 Weapon Training (Dagger)
5 Improved Feint
6 Bleeding attack
Rogue Talent (Offensive Defense)
7 Improved Two-Weapon Feint
8 Combat Trick: Greater Feint
<Skill Focus: Use Magic Device>
9 Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
10 Rogue Talent (Another Day)
11 Quick Draw
12 Rogue Talent (Hunter's Surprise)
Rogue Talent (Improved Evasion)
13 Critical Focus
14 Skill Mastery (Bluff, Acrobatics, Stealth, Sleight of Hand)
15 Bleeding Critical
16 Greater Talent: Sneaking Precision
<Skill Focus: Sleight of Hand>
From magic items you will have most of the Shadow Strike feat and will effectively have Improved Initiative and the Rogue Talent Resiliency. From a trait you effectively have Uncanny Dodge, which this rogue lost.
Magic items in the high teens:
Circlet of Persuasion
Headband of the Ninjitsu
Sniper Goggles
+5 Cloak of Resistance
Celestial Armor
Vest of the Cockroach.
Belt of incredible dexterity +6
Bracelet of Bargaining
Gloves of Larceny
+5 Necklace of Natural Armor
+5 Ring of Protection
Ring of Freedom of Movement
Boots of Speed
+5 Dueling Dagger
+5 Keen Dagger
+2 Cold Iron Daggers
Various wands, staves, and scrolls
Handy Haversack et. al.
At about 16th level, this character will have roughly an AC of 37 without going into defensive mode. She will have a base 42 AC against anyone with light blades and gain a +1 dodge bonus per sneak attack die for anyone she sneak attacks. She can sneak attack about anything. With boots of speed enabled, at 16th she would effectively be attacking at +30 for her highest bab (+28 dual wielding), without resulting to use other wands such as divine power, etc. to gain even more bonuses. Many of these attacks will be against flat-footed ACs, to boot. In addition, she has magical touch and ranged touch spells as needed, and remember, bleed from multiple sources stack. So, if she hits someone with scorching ray (sneak), that would be 5 bleed (fire) at 9th level, which stacks with the bleeding attack of her dagger. The critical effects stack and are nice because they do not offer a saving through. Later on, if she sneak attacks twice against the same target they effectively take 2d6+8 bleed. Remember the magic items here offer +2 insight bonus to sneak attacks as well as 2 additional points of damage per sneak die if thrown. Perhaps a belt of blades is a worthwhile option here, or returning daggers.
Also note that while hasted, you can feint with the first thrown attack and do an offhand, mainhand-5, offhand-5, mainhand-10, mainhand full bab thrown dagger combo. All of which are sneak attacks mind you, and if you can have the magic item above, all the daggers appear on your belt (if you skip the mainhand -10 or merely use a throwaway dagger for that throw because it will likely miss anyway).
Average damage with a dagger at 16th is (d4+8d8+1Str+1Trait+5Enhancement)is 42 damage +8 bleed, crits give additional 2d6 stackable bleed, or if more than one sneak hit in the same round. If the dagger was thrown, the average damage jumps to 58+8bleed+potentially 2d6 more bleed.
If you have a crafter in the party with Craft Wondrous, add a Blink Back Belt to your belt of dexterity for maximum joy!
This rogue is effectively automatic with wands at 10th level and the bluff check should be +24 at 10th level with the +5 bluff magic item. From 7th level on, she can give up her primary attack and use that to bluff, and at 8th the bluff carries a lot more weight. This character truly starts to sing at 8th and above.
Focus on some key spells to bolster this character, and this character is extremely flexible in many situations.
I hope you enjoy it as much as I think I am going to in this next campaign where I am determined to prove that rogues rock!
Arliss, can we get a stat block at 10-12th level? High Level builds generally have the GP to make any builds work.
Alignment DR screws everyone who doesn't straight
The only other thing that concerned me about your build (which again, I really do like) is that the sneak attack damage is only applied once after you've moved (I was reading the skirmisher class), so the damage that's getting done is actually really low at about 46 damage on a charge / movement + attack.
With the charge action the sneak attack would be applied to all her attacks at the end of the charge. Skirmisher only applies to the attack action. Granted that might require an FAQ to confirm.
Like I said it's something that could be improved. One level of monk and we're in dragon style territory meaning a strength based build might turn out much stronger.
Oh and one other thing. Feral Combat Training allows those things you mentioned to be applied to claws. :)
I'm a little confused. I was looking over your sheet and I'm not seeing how you get multiple attacks at the end of your charge, since you don't have pounce. I see that you could take Claw pounce at 14th level, but by that time it's exceedingly underwhelming. The best you're able to do if you go by Paizo's interpretation of speed weapons is 3 claw attacks or a little over 100 points of damage if all three claw attacks hit and you don't have to worry about DR.
That seems a little late to become viable. You also need to burn a feat for Shadow Strike or else your entire build is worthless against anything with a brain, because concealment effects prevent you from sneak attacking the foe, which means anything from 10 gp smokesticks and obscuring mist to cloud spells to blur and displacement and blink through invisibility / greater invisibility and so...
Miss chances mess up everyone. It just messes up rogues more than others. And yes while it's easy to screw a rogue not many are going to do it specifically because of them. And doesn't the heartseeker weapon enhancement negate concealment on most foes? That's a thought.
As for feral combat training I pointed it out because it allowed me to apply the aforementioned buffs like align weapon to my claws.
Ultimately though I would not look at it like a cahrge build. That's jsut a method of continuing to dole out the pain. In a flank we can mix in unarmed strikes with claw attacks to get more sneak attacks in with a similiar attack bonus and damage to some twf builds. Same can be done to blinded opponents or while invisible. I think the trick right now is making this build function more consistently at lower levels before getting to this point.
In any case this is just a starting build to lay the groundwork for more refinement. I do want to go back and work it into a more strength based build possibly dipping a level or three of monk.
Right now I'm focusing on a carnivalist with three familiars.
Okayyy, how about some math to verify rangers being objectively better than rogues between these two? Rangers and Rogues both have stealth as a thing. Unless you can throw two builds up for a side by side comparison this is only an opinion.A Dex-based ranger can do stealth just as good as a Dex-based rogue, and they full BAB and more options for doing damage.How so?
The problem with the stealth beyond stealth build by BBT is that it was better suited to Rangers.
I think Bigdaddjug may be referring to the fact rangers get more love concerning things that help them Stealth. For example, rogues may pick a single terrain and hide in plain sight like a ranger. Meanwhile the ranger does it in every favored terrain. Rangers also have in-class access to things like hide from animals, negate aroma, pass without trace, risidual tracking, acute senses, chameleon stride, etc. Several of which can negate common foils vs Stealth (such as scent).
Likewise woodland stride makes using Stealth much easier since most natural locations of cover / concealment probably also count as difficult terrain (IE bushes, brambles, thickets, etc) or are in difficult terrain (trying to stealth through an overgrown marsh is a pain in the butt).
Compounded with the fact all rangers can take item creation feats and make their own elixirs of hiding, rangers are pretty amazing at stealth. Better than rogues IMHO. Rogues get...fast Stealth.
See this? This is an answer that actually answers the question. Thank you.
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@Arliss
You can't get Improved Two Weapon Feint without Improved Two Weapon Fighting. You'll need to reorder things.
Thanks! I've gone through about 10 major revisions of this character--was seeing stars! I swapped QD and ITWF at 7 and 11 to fix.
Also I can't figure out how you're getting +30 to hit before two weapon fighting.
Actual magic items will vary a little because there are some interesting little things out there, but I was generally thinking:
+12 BAB + 9 Dex + 1 Weapon Focus + 5 enhancement (dagger) + 2 insight (Headband of the Ninjisu) + 1 haste (boots) = +30 before TWF.
You could easily squeeze another +1 to +3 if you could get a wand of divine favor (pretty cheaply really).
Also if you've got a massive dex, why not an Agile enchant.Also you've got Sniper's Goggles listed, but I don't think you factored the bonus damage into the actual equation.
EDIT: Is there a Melee equivalent of Sniper's Goggles? I was just complaining about how little feats/magic items/etc have an effect on Sneak Attack.
Excellent feedback, thank you.
I agree, in this build the agile enchant is really worth it for the main hand but not the offhand (because it would be halved). Focus on accuracy and different forms of sneak attack to get the bleeds in.
Sniper's Goggles provide a damage bonus for short range throws, but the Headband of the Ninjitsu provides a +2 insight (INSIGHT?) bonus on all sneak attacks as well as most of the Shadow Strike Feat and a 1/day swift action feint. It is a must have at mid level if you have a crafter in the party, especially.
Don't worry about the mention of ki. It has already been confirmed it was poor wording and works for rogues without ki.
A normal non-crit hit for a thrown dagger with an agile +5 dagger at 16th would be:
d4 + 8str + 1trait + 8d8sneak + 16SniperGoggle + 5 enhancement =
39 to 98 points of damage (avg 68.5) with a single hit PLUS 8 bleed.
*If there was a 2nd sneak attack that round to the same creature, add another 2d6 bleed stack on the 8.
*If the hit was a crit, add the same 2d6 bleed stack.
*Bleeds occur at the beginning of the opponent's turn, so that one hit is basically averaging 76.5 points of damage for 1 hit without a crit...just by moving 10' if you wanted to derive sneak attack that way via scout.
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Arliss, can we get a stat block at 10-12th level? High Level builds generally have the GP to make any builds work.
True. This build really sings if you have a friendly crafter in the party that takes at least Craft Wondrous and Craft Arms & Armor.
Let's look at this character at 12th level. I slapped on some gear without trying to really optimize--I ended up in the ballpark of 12th level...really i might have +2 daggers instead of dueling and I'd have some smaller magic items like cracked ioun stones, wands, maybe eyes of the eagle, etc. In reality you'd have a small trove of wands and a few scrolls by this time:
12th Level Arliss Rogue
Female Human Rogue (Knife Master, Scout) 12
CG Medium humanoid (human)
Init +11; Senses Perception +15
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Defense
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AC 25, touch 18, flat-footed 19 (+6 armor, +6 Dex, +1 natural, +2 deflection)
hp 87 (12d8+24)
Fort +9, Ref +18, Will +8; +2 trait bonus vs. divinaton effects, +2 vs. cold climates or slipping
Defensive Abilities blade sense, evasion, improved evasion
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Offense
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Speed 30 ft.
Melee +1 cold iron dagger +16/+11 (1d4+2/19-20) and
. . +1 dueling adamantine dagger +16/+11 (1d4+3/19-20) and
. . unarmed strike +16/+11 (1d3+1)
Special Attacks scout's charge, skirmisher, sneak attack +6d8 dagger/+6d4 other
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Statistics
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Str 12, Dex 25, Con 14, Int 13, Wis 10, Cha 10
Base Atk +9; CMB +10 (+12 disarm, +12 reposition); CMD 28 (30 vs. disarm, 30 vs. trip)
Feats Combat Expertise, Greater Feint, Improved Feint, Improved Two-Weapon Feint, Improved Two-weapon Fighting, Quick Draw, Skill Focus (Bluff), Skill Focus (Use Magic Device), Two-weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (dagger)
Traits carefully hidden, defensive strategist, river rat (marsh or river)
Skills Acrobatics +22, Bluff +21 (+23 to Feint, +23 competence to Feint), Climb +5, Diplomacy +15, Disguise +4, Knowledge (local) +12, Linguistics +5, Perception +15, Sense Motive +15, Sleight of Hand +27 (+33 to conceal a light blade, +31 to hide objects on your body (doesn't stack with heavy clothing but does with bonuses for attempting to hide small objects)), Stealth +27, Swim +6, Use Magic Device +21
Languages Common, Skald
SQ heart of the snows, hidden blade, rogue talents (another day [1/day], bleeding attack +6, combat trick, finesse rogue, hunter's surprise [1/day], improved evasion, offensive defense, weapon training), unlearned
Combat Gear Sniper goggles, Oil (3); Other Gear +2 Shadow Mithral Chain shirt, +1 Cold Iron Dagger, +1 Dueling Adamantine Dagger, Amulet of natural armor +1, Belt of incredible dexterity +4, Boots of speed (10 rounds/day), Cloak of resistance +3, Gloves of larceny, Headband of ninjitsu (1/day), Ring of protection +2, Backpack, masterwork (8 @ 6 lbs), Belt pouch (1 @ 1 lbs), Blanket, Canteen, Chalk (5), Flint and steel, Lamp, Pocketed scarf, Powder (2), Soldier's uniform, Whetstone, Wrist sheath, spring loaded (empty), Wrist sheath, spring loaded (empty), 22 GP, 10 SP, 1 CP
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Special Abilities
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Another Day (1/day) (Ex) If attack reduces below 1 hp, move 5 ft. If out of reach take 0 dam, but staggered next rd.
Blade Sense +4 (Ex) +4 dodge bonus to AC vs. attacks made against you with light blades
Bleeding Attack +6 (Ex) Sneak attacks also deal 6 bleed damage/round.
Boots of speed (10 rounds/day) Affected by haste
Carefully Hidden You gain a +1 trait bonus to Will saves and a +2 trait bonus to saving throws versus divination effects.
Combat Expertise +/-3 Bonus to AC in exchange for an equal penalty to attack.
Defensive Strategist Your knowledge of dwarven history and religion gives you an excellent mind for defensive strategy and tactics. You are not flat-footed when you are an unaware combatant. This includes a surprise round that you don't get to act in, and before you get
Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead.
Greater Feint Feinted foe loses DEX until the beginning of your next turn, rather than on next attack.
Headband of ninjitsu (1/day) +2 to hit on sneak att, can sneak att concealed. Activate to feint/reposition as swift.
Heart of the Snows +2 to save vs. cold climates and to avoid slipping or falling.
Hidden Blade +6 +6 bonus on Slight of Hand checks to conceal a light blade.
Hunter's Surprise (1/day) (Ex) Against chosen adjacent foe, all attacks are sneak attacks for 1 rd.
Improved Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead. If you fail you take half damage.
Improved Feint You can make a Bluff check to feint in combat as a move action.
Improved Two-Weapon Feint Make a Bluff check instead of your first attack
Offensive Defense (Ex) Sneak attack grants a +1 dodge bonus to AC for each die rolled vs. that foe.
Quick Draw Draw weapon as a free action (or move if hidden weapon). Throw at full rate of attacks.
Scout's Charge (Ex) Charge attacks deal sneak attack damage as though foe is flat-footed.
Skirmisher (Ex) After move 10 ft, first attack deals sneak attack damage as though foe is flat-footed.
Sneak Attack +6d8 +6d8 damage if you flank your target or your target is flat-footed while wielding a dagger or dagger-like weapon.
Sniper goggles The leather strap attached to these bulbous lenses allows their wearer to fit them to his head. The wearer of these goggles can make ranged sneak attacks from any distance instead of the normal 30 feet. When making ranged sneak attacks within 30 feet, the wearer gains a +2 circumstance bonus on each sneak attack damage die.
Construction
Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, true strike; Cost 10,000 gp
Unlearned (Knowledge [local]) You cannot attempt untrained checks with knowledge skills other than the one selected.
Other notes
A wand of shield would go a long way for this character.
This character out of the gate against an enemy wielding a light blade while using combat expertise would be at AC32, 36 with a shield spell.
Final note: get rid of dueling, have dual +2 daggers and hasted = +20/+15/+20/+15 (without flanking) sneak attacks against an opponent within 5' if your +23 Feint check works. Each hit would do d4+6d8+10+ 6 bleed (does not stack) for an average of ~35 points of damage with 6 bleed. Thus if you hit 3 out of 4 times against a roughly AC25 opponent, then you would have averaged 105 points of damage before the bleed sets in. Don't forget your extra 12 damage per throw on thrown daggers :)
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Slight derail on goblins. I never cared much for the Golarion goblins because they are so chaotic and stupid, and their stats don't match it. I would rather use kobold for that, but have them be tricky and focused when needed.
I play them as Eberron goblins with some measure of common sense, well except for the campaign I am currently running. :)
Now back to our rogue conversation. :)
Just a thought on the Carnivalist. Taking a valet familiar and picking up the precise strike teamwork feat would help to offset the slowed Sneak Attack progression.
Also Outflank would be nice here especially come level 10 when you can take the Opportunist Advanced Rogue Talent and pair that with keen weponry.Broken Wing Gambit might also be worth considering.
No idea what kind of familiar to use. Prolly one that flies so that it can flank easily and one that has multiple natural attacks. Any ideas?
Just a thought on the Carnivalist. Taking a valet familiar and picking up the precise strike teamwork feat would help to offset the slowed Sneak Attack progression.
Also Outflank would be nice here especially come level 10 when you can take the Opportunist Advanced Rogue Talent and pair that with keen weponry.Broken Wing Gambit might also be worth considering.No idea what kind of familiar to use. Prolly one that flies so that it can flank easily and one that has multiple natural attacks. Any ideas?
Hawks?
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The rogue buys some cheap wands of Ranger spells and UMDs them. (A wand of Longstrider was the very first magic item my last PFS character purchased.)I think Bigdaddjug may be referring to the fact rangers get more love concerning things that help them Stealth. For example, rogues may pick a single terrain and hide in plain sight like a ranger. Meanwhile the ranger does it in every favored terrain. Rangers also have in-class access to things like hide from animals, negate aroma, pass without trace, risidual tracking, acute senses, chameleon stride, etc. Several of which can negate common foils vs Stealth (such as scent).
Likewise woodland stride makes using Stealth much easier since most natural locations of cover / concealment probably also count as difficult terrain (IE bushes, brambles, thickets, etc) or are in difficult terrain (trying to stealth through an overgrown marsh is a pain in the butt).
Compounded with the fact all rangers can take item creation feats and make their own elixirs of hiding, rangers are pretty amazing at stealth. Better than rogues IMHO. Rogues get...fast Stealth.
And Sap Master and Underhanded, meaning they can actually exploit that sneakiness.
Could probably work in Sap use with my Goblin build by dropping Weapon Focus and Slow Reactions.
Hawks?Just a thought on the Carnivalist. Taking a valet familiar and picking up the precise strike teamwork feat would help to offset the slowed Sneak Attack progression.
Also Outflank would be nice here especially come level 10 when you can take the Opportunist Advanced Rogue Talent and pair that with keen weponry.Broken Wing Gambit might also be worth considering.No idea what kind of familiar to use. Prolly one that flies so that it can flank easily and one that has multiple natural attacks. Any ideas?
Hawks are tiny and can't flank. Best I've been able to find for flanking purposes is the Donkey rat.
Just thinking. what about a scout rogue halfling with the swift as shadows archetype and sap line of feats?
You'd have all the basic feats you need by level 8:
1. bludgeoner
2. sap adept
3. point blank shot
4. precise shot
5. sap master
6. weapon focus
7. deadly aim
8. snipers eye
assuming a 20 point buy
str 14 (16 prior racial)
dex 18 (16 prior racial)
con 12
int 8
wis 12
char 9 (7 prior to racial)
Now at level 8 your attack would look like:
1d4 (composite short bow) + 4d6 (sneak attack) + 4d6 (sap master) + 8 (sap adept) + 4 (deadly aim)+ 2 (strength)+ 1 (point blank shot)= 45 damage per shot not including magical items.
Obviously this doesn't make it a top tier damage dealer, but you'd be almost impossible to target, and could reliably get decent sneak attacks in. later you could pick up bracers of archery, and use a longbow.
Seems like this would also be a great way to frustrate enemies while waiting for your party to back you up.
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For a strait Rogue (Scout Archetype) with no house rules this is what I came up with.
Nightflower
Female Elf Rogue (Scout) 10
CG Medium Humanoid
Init: +6
Senses: Perception +20; Low-Light Vision
DEFENSE
AC: 23 (10, +6 armor, +6 Dex, +1 deflection) (+3 vs. traps)
Touch: 18
Flat-footed: 18
HP: 63 (10d8+10)
Fort: +8 (3 base, +0 Con, +2 feat, +3 resistance)
Ref: +16 (7 base, +6 Dex, +3 resistance) (+3 vs. traps)
Will: +7 (3 base, +1 Wis, +3 resistance) (+2 vs. enchantment)
Defensive Abilities: Evasion, Immune sleep
OFFENSE
Speed: 30 ft.
Melee:
Dagger +7/+2 (1d4/19-20x2)
Ranged:
+3 Longbow +17/+12 (1d8+3/x3)
+3 Longbow w/ PBS and Sneak Attack +18 (1d8+4/x3 +5d6+5 bleed)
Special Attacks: Scout’s Charge, Skirmisher, Sneak Attack +5d6
STATISTICS
Str: 10 +0 (10 base)
Dex: 22 +6 (15 base, +2 racial, +1 level, +4 enhancement)
Con: 10 +0 (12 base, -2 racial)
Int: 18 +4 (15 base, +2 racial, +1 level)
Wis: 12 +1 (12 base)
Cha: 12 +1 (12 base)
BAB: +7/+2; CMB: +7; CMD: 24
Feats: Alertness, Great Fortitude, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Skill Focus: Acrobatics, Weapon Focus: Longbow
Skills: Acrobatics +25(10r), Bluff +14(10r), Climb +13(10r), Disable Device +19(10r), Disguise +14(10r), Knowledge (dungeoneering) +17(10r), Knowledge (local) +17(10r), Perception +20(10r), Sense Motive +18(10r), Sleight of Hand +19(10r), Stealth +24(10r), Use Magic Device +14(10r)
Languages: Common, Elven +4
Special Qualities: +2 to Dex, +2 Int, -2 Con, Elven Immunities (+2 vs. enchantment, immune to sleep), Keen Senses (+2 perception), Low-Light Vision, Silent Hunter (reduce stealth penalty when moving by 5), Weapon Familiarity (proficient with longbows, longswords, rapiers, and shortbows, and treat any weapon with the word “elven” in its name as a martial weapon)
Class Abilities: Evasion, Rogue Talent (Bleeding Attack, Fast Tumble, Sniper’s Eye, Trap Spotter, Weapon Training), Scout’s Charge, Skirmisher, Sneak Attack +5d6, Trapfinding, Trap Sense +3
Equipment:
+2 Shadow Mithril Chain Shirt (8,850gp)
Belt of Incredible Dexterity +4 (16,000)
Cloak of Resistance +3 (9,000gp)
Ring of Protection +1 (2,000gp)
3 Daggers (6 gp)
+3 Longbow (18,400gp)
40 Arrows (2gp)
20 Adamant Arrows (1,201gp)
Explorer's Outfit (0gp)
Handy Haversack (2,000gp)
Efficient Quiver (1,800gp)
Bedroll (0.1gp)
Waterskin (1gp)
Wand of Cure Light Wounds, 50ch (750gp)
Potion of Cure Moderate Wounds (300gp)
5 Alchemist Fire (100gp)
5 Acid Flask (50gp)
5 Smokestick (100gp)
5 Tanglefoot Bag (250gp)
60,810.1
Money: 1,189.9gp
62,000gp
Being an Elf hurts her Con and thus Fort save, but helps Dex, Int, Perception (with low-light vision), Will vs. Enchantments and gets proficiency with longbow.
She has 12 skills, all maxed, some enhanced by race, feats, talents or magic.
In combat this character will need to get within 30' and stay there in order to get her Sneak Attack. When she can get Sniper's Goggles she can stay farther away. The general strategy is to Snap Shot in the surprise round then move and fire every round with Sneak Attack damage. She makes no attempt at full attacking.
She will never be a huge damage dealer, but will annoy enemies with bleed damage and can ignore most DR with the right arrows. Use Magic Device and alchemical items give her some options. She should probably get some scroll for more flexibility.
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For a strait Rogue (Scout Archetype) with no house rules this is what I came up with.
** spoiler omitted **...
The only problem here which you alluded to were the saves. The character has less than a 50% chance of making a save against a CR 10 creature. Personally I think rogues should a good will save progression, but that is another topic for another thread.
Sub-zero, it looks like you shorted yourself 2 points
Str: 16 (10 pts)
Dex: 16 (10 pts)
Con: 12 (2 pts)
Int: 8 (-2 pts)
Wis: 12 (2 pts)
Cha: 7 (-4 pts)For me, that's only adding up to 18. Might I recommend an 8 in Cha pre-racial, or even better a 10 in Int.
ah the danger of rushed typing and the simple oversights. Speaking of which I also really underrated my damage. It should be:
1d4 (composite short bow) + 4d6 (sneak attack) + 4d6 (sap master) + 16 (sap adept) + 4 (deadly aim)+ 2 (strength)+ 1 (point blank shot)= 53 damage per shot not including magical items.
Granted the point of this build is not to have the absolute best damage, but rather, deal a surprisingly large chunk of damage every round, while remaining completely stealthed, and therefore fairly safe.
An even modest investment in stealth items could easily see stealth boosted to obscene levels that counter the -10 sniping penalty.
slap merciful on the bow, man.
slap merciful on the bow, man.
merciful on the bow, and bracers of archery are kinda a given. That with a decent enchant bonus, and str/dex belt ought to up the damage a bit more.
It'll never be at the level of a full attack player, but the fact that you're practically untargetable make up for it.
I just want to throw out that bracers of falcons aim are a way better value than bracers of archery.
Couple things Bfobar, glad he inspired you as well! Its an amazing build and you came up with some excellent points!
1. Your feats don't work as written. Unfortunately Extra rogue talent can't be taken at level 1, as you don't have the "rogue talent" class feature yet. You need to take weapon finesse as your 1st level feat and leave the acid splash to 2nd level.
2. Spring attack is unfortunately a trap for this build. Spring attack is a full round action, this means we can't cast our spell, then move in, then attack. Which means round 1 of combat we either don't use chill touch, or we don't use spring attack. After round 1 of combat spring attack becomes even less useful as we will probably want to use our additional attacks (They're touch attacks! They always hit!) Normal rogues benefit much greater from spring attack because their iterative attacks tend to miss, so moving away afterwords is awesome. We can actually hit on ours, so we need to play to our multiple attack strengths.
3. Everything else looks awesome, your fort save is a tad on the low side and your hp as well, so I'd probably use those extra feats to shore up those weakness. Either that or think about the abberant bloodline I proposed. It's a good way for our bad touch rogues to get reach. Reach keeps us out of the fray, which means we don't need as much hp/ac, which frees up those feats/talents for other things :D
Just my 2 copper pieces, I really do enjoy your adaptation of the build and I hope my opinions have helped somewhat. Even if it's only to provoke thought! Would you mind taking a look at my build a couple pages back? I'm playing it in an upcoming game and could use some bad touch advice!
I agree with almost everything, except for the need of combat casting. You can cast the chill touch before you move into your enemies for all intensive purposes. If your worried about your enemies going first then address that with improved initiative. We want to go first anyways for the easier sneak attack requirement on round 1.
The only way I've found around the elemental touch is still the gillman, other than that I think we'd have to dip for maximum optimization.
Sam, Shadow Striker should be added to the build. We wouldn't want a 1st level spell (obscuring mist) to stop us from ever sneak attacking would we? I'd go so far as to say that every damn MELEE rogue should have shadow striker.
Eldritch Heritage has lots of options it could potentially give us. The aberrant bloodlines reach for touch spells is the most apparent, however, I'm sure there is probably a gem or two in there as well that I haven't noticed.
While the touch-build is great at hitting - are there ways to improve his ability to apply sneak attack?
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Enjoying the thread so far. Wondering how much the desire (which I share) to "make the Rogue work" will abate once we have the Slayer in hand from the forthcoming ACG playtest, though. Tuesday!
***
... for all intensive purposes ...
A friend recently told me how she used to make this same mistake until she saw the phrase written. I can see how it's easy to mistake the words when spoken. The phrase is for all intents and purposes.
Im just loving this thread, with all that awesome builds for my favorite class in the game. The build I like the most, though, is my unarmed rogue who can, at level 20, do 9 attacks dealing 20d6+60 nonlethal damage each, not to mention his ease access to sneak attacks. If someone is interested, I can post the build here.
Just a note thigns have made me a tad busy so if someoen could take over the task of consolidating builds I would greatly appreciate it.
Unarmed Rogue 2.0 (level 10):
Human Unarmed Fighter 1 / Scout Rogue 9
Str 10, Dex 24, Con 13, Int 10, Wis 16, Cha 12
HP: 9d8+1d10 +10
AC: 23 (10 +5 armor +6 dex +2 deflect)
Touch: 18; FF: 17
Saves: Fortitude +9, Reflex +16, Will +9
BAB +7; CMB +7; CMD 24
Unarmed Strike +17/+17/+12 (1d3+4, 20/x2) [5d6+10 SA*]
*Against flat-footed opponents SA non-lethal damage will be 10d6+30, which will be constant thanks to the combination of scout archetype and enforcer/shatter defenses feats.
Feats: (H=human bonus, R=rogue talent, F=fighter bonus)
1- Two-Weapon Fighting
1F-Improved Unarmed Strike
1F-Dragon Style
1H-Enforcer
3R-Rogue Finesse
3- Sap Adept
5R-Weapon Training
5- Dazzling Display
7R-Offensive Defense
7- Sap Master
9R-Combat Trick (Shatter Defenses)
9- Knockout Artist
Traits:
Reactionary (+2 Init)
Eyes and Ears of The City (+1 Perception)
Skills (74 + 9 favored class bonus):
Perception +17 (10 ranks) [21 to find traps]
Disable Device +22 (10 ranks) [26 to disable traps]
Acrobatics +20 (10 ranks)
Stealth +20 (10 ranks)
Sleight of Hand +20 (10 ranks)
Bluff +14 (10 ranks)
Intimidate +14 (10 ranks)
Use Magic Device +14 (10 ranks)
Sense Motive +7 (1 rank)
Climb +4 (1 rank)
Swim +4 (1 rank)
Equipment: Belt of Dex +4, Headband of Wis +2, +1 Brawling Mithral Chain shirt, +2 Amulet of Mighty Fists, Cloak of Resistance +3, Ring of Protection +2, masterwork thieve tools
3 attacks, constantly getting SAs, 10d6+30 nonlethal damage per hit, offensive defence gets 10 dodge AC per turn if defense is needed.
Unarmed Rogue 2.0 (Level 20):
Human Unarmed Fighter 1 / Scout Rogue 19
Str 10, Dex 32, Con 20, Int 10, Wis 24, Cha 18
HP: 19d8+1d10 +100
AC: 34 (10 +8 armor +11 dex +5 deflect)
Touch: 26; FF: 23
Saves: Fortitude +18, Reflex +27, Will +18
BAB +15; CMB +15; CMD +36
Unarmed Strike +30/+30/+30/+30/+30/+25/+25/+20/+20 (+2 Medusa’s Wrath, +1 Haste) (1d3+5, 20/x2) [10d6+20 SA*]
*Against flat-footed opponents SA non-lethal damage will be 20d6+60, which will be constant thanks to the combination of scout archetype and enforcer/shatter defenses feats.
Feats: (H=human bonus, R=rogue talent, F=fighter bonus)
1- Two-Weapon Fighting
1F- Improved Unarmed Strike
1F- Dragon Style
1H- Enforcer
3R- Rogue Finesse
3- Sap Adept
5R- Weapon Training
5- Dazzling Display
7R- Offensive Defense
7- Sap Master
9R- Combat Trick (Shatter Defenses)
9- Knockout Artist
11R- Crippling Strike
11- Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
13R- Opportunist
13- Scorpion Style
15- Gorgon’s Fist
15R- Feat (Medusa’s Wrath)
17- Greater Two-Weapon Fighting
17R- Improved Evasion
19-
19R-
Traits:
Reactionary (+2 Init)
Eyes and Ears of The City (+1 Perception)
Skills (154 + 19 favored class bonus):
Perception +31 (20 ranks) [40 to find traps]
Disable Device +36 (20 ranks) [45 to disable traps]
Acrobatics +34 (20 ranks)
Stealth +34 (20 ranks)
Sleight of Hand +34 (20 ranks)
Bluff +27 (20 ranks)
Intimidate +27 (20 ranks)
Use Magic Device +27 (20 ranks)
Sense Motive +21 (11 ranks)
Climb +4 (1 rank)
Swim +4 (1 rank)
Equipment: Belt of Physical Might +6 (Dex, Con), Headband of Mental Prowess +6 (Wis, Cha), Bracers of Armor +8, +5 Amulet of Mighty Fist, Cloak of Resistance +5, Ring of Protection +5, Boots of Speed, Manual of Quickness in Action +4, Tome of Understanding +4, Masterwork Thieves Tools
9 attacks, constantly getting SAs, 20d6+60 nonlethal per hit, offensive defense can get 20 dodge ac per turn, crippling strike can do up to -18 str penalty to a target.