I know there's already a "ACG" Wishlist Thread out there. But I haven't seen a Predictions thread. So here goes!
We're about a year from the release of this book, so almost anything goes. What we do know is that there are going to be 10 new classes added to the game. These classes are going to be hybrid concepts of existing classes. Four of these classes have been revealed already:
Shaman (Cleric/Druid)
Warpriest (Cleric/Fighter)
Hunter (Druid/Ranger)
Slayer (Ranger/Rogue)
So what are your predictions for the remaining six? What are your justifications?
Here are my thoughts:
There are 55 possible hybrid combinations in the Core Classes alone. I don't think that they're going to open it up to Base Classes (much like the NPC Codex was Core only). Even in the Core there are plenty of options.
The possibilities are:
Barbarian/Bard
Barbarian/Cleric
Barbarian/Druid
Barbarian/Fighter
Barbarian/Monk
Barbarian/Paladin
Barbarian/Ranger
Barbarian/Rogue
Barbarian/Sorcerer
Barbarian/Wizard
Bard/Cleric
Bard/Druid
Bard/Fighter
Bard/Monk
Bard/Paladin
Bard/Ranger
Bard/Rogue
Bard/Sorcerer
Bard/Wizard
Cleric/Druid
Cleric/Fighter
Cleric/Monk
Cleric/Paladin
Cleric/Ranger
Cleric/Rogue
Cleric/Sorcerer
Cleric/Wizard
Druid/Fighter
Druid/Monk
Druid/Paladin
Druid/Ranger
Druid/Rogue
Druid/Sorcerer
Druid/Wizard
Fighter/Monk
Fighter/Paladin
Fighter/Ranger
Fighter/Rogue
Fighter/Sorcerer
Fighter/Wizard
Monk/Paladin
Monk/Ranger
Monk/Rogue
Monk/Sorcerer
Monk/Wizard
Paladin/Ranger
Paladin/Rogue
Paladin/Sorcerer
Paladin/Wizard
Ranger/Rogue
Ranger/Sorcerer
Ranger/Wizard
Rogue/Sorcerer
Rogue/Wizard
Sorcerer/Wizard
There are certain combinations that we can probably rule out. Barbarian/Paladin or Barbarian/Monk for example are too different to make a cohesive hybrid (IMHO). One cannot be a chaotic rager whilst also be dedicated to maintaining balance and order after all. Also, class concepts like the Bard/Sorcerer or the Cleric/Paladin overlap too much. Then there's also the class combinations whose niches have already been filled, like the Cleric/Sorcerer (Oracle) and the Fighter/Wizard (Magus).
My predictions:
In order of likelihood:
1) Swashbuckler - (Fighter/Rogue) - There's been a lot of talk on the forums lately about adding this class to the game. James Jacobs is a pretty avid supporter of the idea, and Jason Bulmahn has talked about it a time or five. So that's both the head of the campaign setting and the head of the core mechanics reaching an accord. I think that's a virtual guarantee that we'll see this class.
2) Beguiler - (Rogue/Wizard) - This is a pretty classic combination. I recall this sort of thing being popular throughout many of the editions of D&D. So why not have it exist in Pathfinder?
3) Mystic - (Monk/Sorcerer) - Paizo has talked about introducing psychic magic and Vudra for a long time now. While I don't think this is necessarily where they're going to do it, it would be cool. There's plenty of precedent for Mystics in fiction. Asian cinema is full of Kung-Fu warriors with supernatural powers and magic. There's even somewhat of a precedent in Golarion (certain characters in Dave Gross' Master of Devils).
4) Skald - (Barbarian/Bard) - Norse/Viking history and legend was passed on in an oral tradition thanks to poet warriors known as Skalds. I think it's a perfect historical precedent to blend two otherwise very different classes.
5) Warrior Poets - (Bard/Paladin) - Warrior Poets have long been a trope in fiction. From literature like Lord of the Rings and the Song of Ice and Fire to films like Braveheart and the Seven Samurai, we've seen righteous warriors who inspire both on the battlefield and off.
6) Rage Mage - (Barbarian/Sorcerer) - Honestly couldn't come up with a better name. So let's go with Rage Mage for now. Possible that this hybrid could set up well to go into Rage Prophet. It's a weak prediction for #6 but it's the best I could come up with.
What do you think?
Note that this is intended to be a predictions thread, not a wishlist/want list. That already exists. Try and justify your predictions with something other than "it'd be really cool".
Okay. Go!
Alastor - (ranger/wizard) plenty of spellcaster hunters/men in black in fiction. Arcane inquisitor-type with anti-magic mechanic (judgement or hex style debuffs and resistances, spell absobtion to charge staff of office bonded item).
Marshal - (bard/cavalier) I know this exists as a prestige class, but it is core to so much fiction that it deserves a full class. The inspiring leader with full BAB and hex-like mechanic that lays out buffs that can be "cackled" as a move action to extend. No spells. High social skills
The seminar ran out of time before I could ask if there were any 3 way combinations. In my mind I immediately started lecturing all the old edition demihuman choices
The seminar ran out of time before I could ask if there were any 3 way combinations. In my mind I immediately started lecturing all the old edition demihuman choices
Oh! Three-way combos! I didn't even think of that!
Shaman was described as being Oracle/Witch, not Cleric/Druid.
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"PAIN"
Seriously though, a Paladin/Sorcerer could open a BIG can of W.A.
Shaman was described as being Oracle/Witch, not Cleric/Druid.
My mistake, thanks for the catch. I guess that blows my original assumption of Core only out of the water.
"PAIN"
Seriously though, a Paladin/Sorcerer could open a BIG can of W.A.
Yeah. Lots of good synergy there. But I wonder if it's too niche a theme.
Also, apparently, Jason Bulmahn leaked the Blood Rager (Barbarian/Sorcerer) during the Rules Q&A Seminar. So that's 5 out of 10 accounted for.
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Random thoughts;
Mystic - Monk/Wis-based Spellcaster (with a 'psychic' flavor to the spellcasting, being a gateway drug to a to-be-developed 'psychic mage' AT)
Archer - using combined Ranger / Gunslinger mechanics (and adaptable to a crossbow, sling or thrown-weapon (dagger, shuriken, javelin, throwing axe, etc.) user)
Skinwalker - Druid / Barbarian (no spellcasting, just shapeshifting and rage and warp spasms)
Skinwalker...cool idea. Not a huge fan of all the shapes a Druid can take based on how much recorded keeping it involves. However, that is a good concept.
although skinwalkers are already a soon to be revealed race in Blood of the Moon.
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I think people are approaching this from the wrong direction (i.e. the fluff).
None of the classes we already know have strong flavor--they're just mechanical amalgamations, like the Magus (hitting stuff plus casting). Look at it this way:
Shaman (Oracle/Witch)- Spontaneous divine + "hexes" (i.e. at-will supernatural abilities with spell-like effects)
Warpriest (Cleric/Fighter)- Paladin with no alignment restriction?
Hunter (Druid/Ranger)- Druid/Ranger:Hunter::Cleric/Ranger:Inquisitor
Slayer (Ranger/Rogue)- Full BAB, decent skills, sneak attack progression--probably some mechanic where you pick a specific target and kill them specifically like the 4e Ranger's Quarry
Blood Rager (Barbarian/Sorcerer)- Rage + a Bloodline
So, in that light, while Swashbuckler seems like it has lots of traction as a Fighter/Rogue, how could it really be a Fighter/Rogue? Won't combining those classes just ruin the concept? You don't want Sneak Attack on a Swashbuckler, and Rogue Tricks don't make much sense either. Unless they're just going to call "Fighter with extra skills and lighter armor" a Fighter/Rogue.
In my opinion, they'll do:
1) At least one Summoner hybrid--basically another open-ended, design your own pet class (as opposed to the Druid which picks from a list). I'd love what many are dubbing the Artificer (Alchemist/Summoner) who would theoretically build a construct ally, but I think it's far more likely that we'll get a Necromancer sort--a Cleric/Summoner or Wizard/Summoner with an undead companion.
2) I think someone at Paizo might be a little sore about how negatively the Gunslinger is perceived by the general public. However, lost somewhere in between "ARGH! Guns don't belong in fantasy!" and "Oh no! Full weapon attacks vs. Touch AC is broken!" is a really solid Grit mechanic that merits expanding. I'd predict some kind of melee Grit using class--Fighter/Gunslinger or Ranger/Gunslinger or whatever. If they're a little more adventurous, we'll get to see something I'd be really interested in: a Bard/Gunslinger that inspires people with his heroic grit and determination--could this be the 4e Warlord I long for? No, probably not--it's probably the gritty melee guy.
3) Another failed class in most eyes is the Cavalier. Very, very few people really want to be mounted (hence the popularity of the Huntmaster and Sword Saint archetypes), but the Challenge, the Orders, and the teamwork stuff is interesting. I could definitely see some kind of Cavalier/(spellcaster of some kind) hybrid--maybe a Warmage/Mage Duelist type?
4) I could easily see a Witch/martial hybrid--no spells, just a Hex like mechanic and decent fighting ability. Maybe a Monk/Witch?
5) A non-Magical Bard is definitely something I see a demand for, and Barbarian/Bard (like a Skald) seems the most obvious, though I could just as easily see Fighter/Bard (like a courtly knight) or Ranger/Bard (like the Fochlucan Lyrist from 3rd edition).
You know, I wonder if that Blood Rager concept might be something more akin to a barbarian with spell-like abilities rather than an actual spellcaster? Ragespells! Trapped in a glass cage of emotion!
I think paizo is drawing heavy inspiration on preexisting classes in the old edition to have already a "tryed and alpha-tested" ideas on witch improve.
So, for my prediction(more hopes actually), we will have
1) a reharsh of the swashbuckler (fighter/rogue) as everybody expect
2) a new tackle on the binder (summoner-synthetyst/warrior)
3) finally a worthy assassin (rogue/sorcer) modelled after the beguiller
4) a dread necromancer style full caster (wizard/cleric)
5) a 4th stylized marshal (cavalier/bard) for melee battlefield control
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Shaman was described as being Oracle/Witch, not Cleric/Druid.My mistake, thanks for the catch. I guess that blows my original assumption of Core only out of the water.
"PAIN"
Seriously though, a Paladin/Sorcerer could open a BIG can of W.A.
Yeah. Lots of good synergy there. But I wonder if it's too niche a theme.
Also, apparently, Jason Bulmahn leaked the Blood Rager (Barbarian/Sorcerer) during the Rules Q&A Seminar. So that's 5 out of 10 accounted for.
One of the 10 new classes is reportedly suppose to be an arcane/warrior hybrid with full BAB and up to fourth level spells. Perhaps this blood rager is that class, ironically many months ago I suggest a warrior/alchemist base class that used his own blood to full his alchemic abilities, and I also liked the rage mage prestige class in 3.5 so I'm a little excited about the prospect. The classes name is trouble me though, perhaps I can convince Jason to change it to marauder or conqueror, something more natural sounding then blood rager.
James Jacobs wants a Swashbuckler. This might be his chance to get one.
That is if Jason takes up the gauntlet and accepts the challenge. ^^
Spellcloak/Beguiler; a rogue/wizard or rogue/sorcerer focused on using spells to set up melee sneak attacks and assassinations or a cloak and dagger caster
Swashbuckler/Duelist; light armored character that uses light and 1handed weapons, assumed to be fighter/rogue. might be closer to fighter with a splash of monk
now for a few ideas inspired by 4e and 3.5e that are unlikely to make it
Warlock; a hybrid of sorcerer and bard who uses pacts with otherwordly creatures to gain their power, heavy WoW flavor, will likely have options for demons, angels, fey, aberrations, devils, and elementals. will likely have elements of binder mixed in
Psion/Psychic; a variant caster for Psychic flavored characters, will likely be inferior to a true wizard
Swordsage? a weapon using hybrid of monk/rogue who uses martial techniques akin to spells
Druid/Oracle makes more sense for a Shaman then Oracle/Witch. I would much rather have a spontaneous cha based caster with the Druid's spell list and have a totem animal spirit then hexes or the Witch's less nature themed spell list. If your going to have a spontaneous caster version of a witch then call them Wicca/Wiccan or Warlocks.
This is a thing? Meh. The one thing this game does not need is more base classes.
That being said, I'm interested in the Shaman and the Slayer (although that's a dumb name; Stalker would fit better).
I would like to see an ungimped Cloistered Cleric (Cleric/Wizard), though.
A better prediction than what new classes, is what else will be in the book?
New feats?
New spells?
New archetypes?
New skills? (Better definitions and examples of the old skills?)
New equipment?
New magic items?
New races?
I would guess
Feats, spells, archetypes (for both the old and new classes), equipment, and magic items.
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I think if there is a swashbuckler it will not be the hybrid between fighter and rogue everyone is guessing...I think it will be a hybrid between Cavalier and rogue.
I think if there is a swashbuckler it will not be the hybrid between fighter and rogue everyone is guessing...I think it will be a hybrid between Cavalier and rogue.
As long as it does not have either sneak attack or a mandatory mount, that'd be interesting.
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I would like to see a priest class. Divine prepared caster who doesn't get armor proficiencies and worst BAB for greater spell casting ability and possibly a third domain.
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I think if there is a swashbuckler it will not be the hybrid between fighter and rogue everyone is guessing...I think it will be a hybrid between Cavalier and rogue.As long as it does not have either sneak attack or a mandatory mount, that'd be interesting.
I definitely agree that a mount would not work, but I think that Sneak Attack could work, especially if the class has some means, via Acrobatics perhaps, to gain the flanking bonus with out needing to have anyone else there. Or maybe a class Feature that worked like the Improved/Greater Feint Feats, thus enabling the Swashbuckler to get his precision damage more easily.
Ooh ooh, what if the Swashbuckler is a Fighter/Bard hybrid that gets full BAB, ditches spellcasting but keeps a modified version of Bardic Performance that lets him bonus allies through his acts of derring-do?
I think if there is a swashbuckler it will not be the hybrid between fighter and rogue everyone is guessing...I think it will be a hybrid between Cavalier and rogue.As long as it does not have either sneak attack or a mandatory mount, that'd be interesting.I definitely agree that a mount would not work, but I think that Sneak Attack could work, especially if the class has some means, via Acrobatics perhaps, to gain the flanking bonus with out needing to have anyone else there. Or maybe a class Feature that worked like the Improved/Greater Feint Feats, thus enabling the Swashbuckler to get his precision damage more easily.
Ooh ooh, what if the Swashbuckler is a Fighter/Bard hybrid that gets full BAB, ditches spellcasting but keeps a modified version of Bardic Performance that lets him bonus allies through his acts of derring-do?
Sneak Attack is a horrible way to deliver frontline damage, with severe constraints on its applicability. If your main damage ability can be completely negated by fighting in the dusk or a light ground mist, then something is wrong with it. And that is not even mentioning the flanking/flat-footed issues.
for the beguiler/spellcloak
i think it needs
Spontaneous Int based casting of spells up to 6th level
a form a sneak attack like damage that is somehow easier to set up
a focus more on the rogue role and less on the caster role
trapfinding
a means of using their high int in combat
base skill points competitive with a bard
I think if there is a swashbuckler it will not be the hybrid between fighter and rogue everyone is guessing...I think it will be a hybrid between Cavalier and rogue.As long as it does not have either sneak attack or a mandatory mount, that'd be interesting.
This is the way I see it working...
From Rogue they get access to some Rogue tricks and some that are unquie their own.
Also Evasion and Uncanny Dodge.
From Cavalier I see them getting the Challenge ability.
With some orginal stuff for defense and damage output.
Another Idea I have is for Swashbuckler to be Cavaliers/Gunslinger...
Which the get a grit point like system...but instead call Panache or something like that. Also maybe some ability to use a pistol with their off-hand...probably as a option as not everyone loves guns.
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Another Idea I have is for Swashbuckler to be Cavaliers/Gunslinger...
Which the get a grit point like system...but instead call Panache or something like that. Also maybe some ability to use a pistol with their off-hand...probably as a option as not everyone loves guns.
Ooh, a Grit-mechanic for a melee Swashbuckler could be fun!
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Another Idea I have is for Swashbuckler to be Cavaliers/Gunslinger...
Which the get a grit point like system...but instead call Panache or something like that. Also maybe some ability to use a pistol with their off-hand...probably as a option as not everyone loves guns.
Ooh, a Grit-mechanic for a melee Swashbuckler could be fun!
When I read about the Grit mechanics and the third way to regain them(which to do cool stuff) it just screamed Swashbuckler at me.
I'm suspecting there may be a monk/monk hybrid called THE monk.
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Space Marine
for the beguiler/spellcloak
i think it needs
Spontaneous Int based casting of spells up to 6th level
a form a sneak attack like damage that is somehow easier to set up
a focus more on the rogue role and less on the caster role
trapfindinga means of using their high int in combat
base skill points competitive with a bard
So basically never play a rogue again?
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So basically never play a rogue again?
Wait, people play rogues now when there are bards, inquisitors, rangers, and alchemists? Do people really play rogues for a reason other than "challenge mode" or "I don't care about mechanics?"
well we certainly need an Alchemist archetype that gets gunsmithing... like the wizard's spellslinger but a bomblobber!
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Not so much predictions as random thoughts, but here we go:
Rune Master (Monk/Wizard): Passively buffs self with arcane power, in the form of runes inscribed upon their body.
Engineer (Fighter/Summoner): Functions similarly to a summoner, except weapons and armour are customized instead of an eidolon.
Wild Mage (Sorcerer/Druid): Arcane caster that evokes enemy skills (breath weapons, gazes, etc...) to attack foes.
So basically never play a rogue again?for the beguiler/spellcloak
i think it needs
Spontaneous Int based casting of spells up to 6th level
a form a sneak attack like damage that is somehow easier to set up
a focus more on the rogue role and less on the caster role
trapfindinga means of using their high int in combat
base skill points competitive with a bard
i hope it is competitive with the bard, inquisitor, psionic warrior, ranger, alchemist, and other 3/4 bab 6th level casters
that means it will have to outshine the rogue and even then it makes the rogue look weak
it would be to Int, what the rogue is to Dex
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Not so much predictions as random thoughts, but here we go:
Rune Master (Monk/Wizard): Passively buffs self with arcane power, in the form of runes inscribed upon their body.
Engineer (Fighter/Summoner): Functions similarly to a summoner, except weapons and armour are customized instead of an eidolon.
Wild Mage (Sorcerer/Druid): Arcane caster that evokes enemy skills (breath weapons, gazes, etc...) to attack foes.
All three of those ideas are crazy evocative.
I'm not sure the Wild Mage would be do-able, as monster abilities aren't generally balanced for use by PCs (hence the thirty seven consecutive changes to polymorph during the 3.X days, which didn't even touch the *scary* monster abilities).
That's not a fault with the coolness of the idea, 'though, just with the nature of 3.X/PF (and many other games!) using different rules and balancing metrics for critters and peeps.
So basically never play a rogue again?for the beguiler/spellcloak
i think it needs
Spontaneous Int based casting of spells up to 6th level
a form a sneak attack like damage that is somehow easier to set up
a focus more on the rogue role and less on the caster role
trapfindinga means of using their high int in combat
base skill points competitive with a bard
i hope it is competitive with the bard, inquisitor, psionic warrior, ranger, alchemist, and other 3/4 bab 6th level casters
that means it will have to outshine the rogue and even then it makes the rogue look weak
it would be to Int, what the rogue is to Dex
Im just holding out for them to fix the rogue with some VERY nice rogue talents before bringing in a super rogue/caster to permanently replace him.
This is the way I see it working...
From Rogue they get access to some Rogue tricks and some that are unquie their own.
Also Evasion and Uncanny Dodge.From Cavalier I see them getting the Challenge ability.
With some orginal stuff for defense and damage output.
Another Idea I have is for Swashbuckler to be Cavaliers/Gunslinger...
Which the get a grit point like system...but instead call Panache or something like that. Also maybe some ability to use a pistol with their off-hand...probably as a option as not everyone loves guns.
You read my mind - a Musketeer
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Dragon Rider (Cavalier/Summoner): Does what it says on the tin, you have your character riding a customizable dragon mount.
Ki Master (Monk/Witch): Able to strike pressure points on foes' bodies to weaken them with each strike.
Shapeshifter (Druid/Alchemist): Masters of many forms, can even shapeshift single limbs.
Archivist (Cleric/Wizard): A divine spellcaster with a spell book and the ability to supercharge scrolls.
This is the way I see it working...
From Rogue they get access to some Rogue tricks and some that are unquie their own.
Also Evasion and Uncanny Dodge.From Cavalier I see them getting the Challenge ability.
With some orginal stuff for defense and damage output.
Another Idea I have is for Swashbuckler to be Cavaliers/Gunslinger...
Which the get a grit point like system...but instead call Panache or something like that. Also maybe some ability to use a pistol with their off-hand...probably as a option as not everyone loves guns.
You read my mind - a Musketeer
A Musketeer would make a good archetype for swashbuckler...I don't think it would be a good idea to ingrain it into the class as that will lead to uproars from the anti-gun in my fantasey RPG fraction.
You could very easily make a musketeer archetype for Gunslingers. =_=
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I am thinking more like the dread necromancer but not so insanely OP.
Whoah, ok, now I have to know what part of the Dread Necromancer you considered overpowered. I think all of those focused casters that came out at the end of 3.5 (Dread Necromancer, Beguiler, Warmage, etc.) were fantastically well designed and, in my opinion, the best way to keep magic in the game without dealing with excessive imbalance.
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Certain undead were OP to be under the control of players, such as anything with create spawn (while others were pushovers), so I wouldn't say that the Dread Necromancer, out of the box, was OP, so much as could get his bony little hands on some OP critters, starting with shadows and ranging up to wraiths, greater shadows, dread wraiths and specters.
Even cherry picking stuff from other books, like Corpsecrafter feats or Tomb-Tainted Soul didn't make the Dread Necromancer who stuck to non self-reproducing undead more than just a funky character with a bunch of time-wasting clutter on the board. (Granted, once you start undead-I-fying called outsiders, hydrae and / or dragons, stuff gets real, but that, again, has more to do with monster abilities than with class abilities.)
Like any 3.5 class or PrC that can get ahold of monster abilities, like Planar Shephard druids or Thrallherd psions or Master of Shrouds clerics or anyone able to call up an Efreeti or rebuke/command a Shadow or Ooze or turn into a Shambling Mound and get infinite Con by calling lightning down upon themselves or cast dominate monster or simulacrum or gate, the abuse potential has less to do with the class abilities than with the crazy unbalanced crap that got tacked onto relatively low CR monsters because of the lazy assumption that those monster abilities only had to be balanced for use a few rounds once in it's lifetime, before the creature died anyway. Monster-leveled-PC options and monsters-as-cohorts and the existence of the Diplomacy skill just widened the net to include 'pretty much everyone, ever.'
the only truly overpowering monster abilities in my opinion, are the ones that ignore your armor, don't allow a save, or ignore your hit points
such as many incorporeal creatures, most undead, and the like
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So many cool hybrid ideas in this thread. You may be unable to find a few of them already created at the Multiclass Archetypes wiki - seeing as we still don't actually have a clear, official indication of what the ACG will contain, perhaps these multiclass archetypes will entertain or prove useful... ;)