Jagozen's page

Removed a post. Please refrain from using excessive profanity.

My apologies.

Is there any way that you could reincarnate (edit&repost) the post? I believe it to be a enlightening piece on the bard that many can appreciate!

Starbuck_II wrote:

Tom S 820 wrote:

Dekalinder wrote:

Tome Of Battle.

How to play a real martial hero or a random anime protagonist in a single hardcover. No book ever was that wide in range and yet still so clean on rule interpretation.

Or yet So Broken It dose not play well with other 3.5 classes. That why It called book of The of Nine Broken Swords. Or the pay ahpha play test for D&D 4th ED.

Hah, next time read your history.

ToB came after Orcus not 4E rules.

4E is the alpha playtest of ToB in 3.5 not the other way around.
They changed everything to make 4E. ToB doesn't resemble 4E.

Hesitant to ask but I couldn't figure put how Orcus fit into the conversation or how 4e could possibly be a test for some future ToB product.

It wasn't. This link should clarify things some.

You May Already Be Playing 4th Edition!.

I respectfully don't concur.

On my table, the Bard is the star. If he wasn't there, all those "save or die" monsters abilities would have made already an epic TPK against the group.

I believe your party would better be served by a archivist, cleric/oracle, properly built paladin with a dip of marshal, or a sorcerer in regard to such.

Jagozen wrote:

Bah! Fools! Raziel747 do not be seduced by such rhetoric.

notabot wrote:

Bards are actually pretty damn good in PF, if you think they are bad perhaps you haven't really explored what they can do.

They were stronger in 3.5, and there were a lot of stronger classes than the tard back then, and in PF there still are. Flavor wise a npc class is better!

Could you perhaps forgive my ignorance and explain exactly how bards were more powerful in 3.5? I'm just not seeing it.

But of course.

Nerfs:

Instead of having one use of bardic music per level per day, you now get X rounds of bardic performance, where X is 4+Cha modifier at level 1 and then increases by 2 per level. This may look like you're getting more bardness, but you need to expend a round of performance every round you want to maintain an effect, instead of just letting it keep going on.

Fascinate used to use your Perform check as the DC, making it almost unbeatable. In PF, it's down to the regular 10+half level+Cha bonus.
Inspire Courage used to last five rounds after you stopped performing. Now it runs out immediately.

Inspire Competence used to last for as long as you needed, up to 2 minutes. Now you need to spend one round of performance per round you need, so if you want to buff someone long enough for them to take 20 on a skill it's going to take a 7th level bard's whole daily allotment.

Inspire Greatness used to last five rounds after you stopped performing. Now it runs out immediately.

Lost Song of Freedom at 12th level, the equivalent of a single-target break enchantment with a cast time of 1 minute (which is the same as the spell).

Inspire Heroism used to last five rounds after you stopped performing. Now it runs out immediately.

Also, Words of Creation feat doubles bonus from bardic music effects.

Bardic Knowledge was more versatile.

The Doomspeak feat. Potent, no?

Here's a couple of links for further study, if you like.

bard handbook.

Inspire Courage Optimization.

Not liking the Bard because you don't like the idea of adventuring musicians, that's fine (though a Bard doesn't have to make music at all, and don't forget that Fafhrd is a skald). But flavourwise a troubadour goes very well with a band of heroes, and suggesting that a Bard in PF are somehow an ineffective choice is just silly.

Fafhrd is more of a multiclass character, but definitely a dip of bard. Not silly, just ineffective for party survival when compared to what else is out there in PF, like: Alchemist, Barbarian, Cavalier, Cleric, Druid, Gunslinger, Inquisitor, Magus, Oracle, Paladin, Sorcerer, Summoner, Witch, and Wizard!

Mess with one bard and they bring the whole band. Oh well, C'est la vie. ;-)

Bah! Fools! Raziel747 do not be seduced by such rhetoric.

Bards are actually pretty damn good in PF, if you think they are bad perhaps you haven't really explored what they can do.

They were stronger in 3.5, and there were a lot of stronger classes than the tard back then, and in PF there still are. Flavor wise a npc class is better!

thaX wrote:

So...

Some of the things I would like to see make the transition to PF, that I miss...

Battledancer (Dragon Mag Annual)
Tibbit race. (Pleaaassseee!!!)

Warlock - A great alternative mechanic to magic that is centered around self used auras and a blast ability. 4TH ed warlock is basically Magic User number three.

I also miss the Soul Knife, though I wouldn't necessarily need a Soul Knife class in PF to be Psionic. (In relation to the mechanical F.U.B.A.R. that the power source is in all editions)

I also miss the Bard being the Jack of All Trade in 2nd edition, but there shouldn't be a class that is hamstrung like that in the current market, so it is just so much remembrance of a character past that was successful despite his many shortcumings. (Alas, poor Strawdor)

I can't speak to the battledancer or tibbit...

I did like the warlock.
However, have you checked out Dreamscarred Press' updated soulknife?
Their version of psionics was written by the same person as 3.5's XPH, and is good enough that Paizo has used it in adventure paths. IMO, the updated soulknife is better balanced than the 3.5 version.

I don't believe the statement in bold is accurate.

Separate from the response above, I do believe this is all the official sources.

Books labeled Dungeons and Dragons 3.5 from WOTC

Eberron (see above)

Forgotten Realms (see above)

Official Web Articles on WOTC website

Dragonlance (from mid 2003 to late 2007)

Kingdoms of Kalamar (from mid 2003 to August 2007)

Ravenloft (from mid 2003 to mid August 2005)

Dungeon and Dragon magazines (from mid 2003 to the end of 2007?)

Any 3rd edition material from the above sources when it is applicable.

LazarX wrote:

"Devil's Advocate" wrote:

I like the skills system in 3E (meaning mostly 3.5), much better. I liked having more points to spend as desired than the small handful that PF gives, though they work out to the same if both are used to max out a skill.

Paizo collapsed a fair number of redundant skills, like Hide and Move Silently to Stealth. They also eliminated the half rank per point cost of non-class skills. IT would be really hard to show any example of Pathfinder vs. 3.5 where Pathfinder doesn't come out ahead in skills.

Iaijutsu Focus, Skill Tricks & more uses for skills in 3.5!

Go to Skills.

Sorry here's a better link.

expanded skills.

Also adding Teamwork benefits from PHBII, DMGII, Heroes of Battle, and Dungeonscape.

Tumble DC 40 10 ft. step from oriental adventures

Another great thing from 3.5 was the many ways to replace the uses of an ability score with another. Here's a good link for you all.

ability score goodness.

"Devil's Advocate" wrote:

I like the skills system in 3E (meaning mostly 3.5), much better. I liked having more points to spend as desired than the small handful that PF gives, though they work out to the same if both are used to max out a skill.

Paizo collapsed a fair number of redundant skills, like Hide and Move Silently to Stealth. They also eliminated the half rank per point cost of non-class skills. IT would be really hard to show any example of Pathfinder vs. 3.5 where Pathfinder doesn't come out ahead in skills.

Iaijutsu Focus, Skill Tricks & more uses for skills in 3.5!

Go to Skills.

"PAIN"

Seriously though, a Paladin/Sorcerer could open a BIG can of W.A.

@Op Vecna is dead. Didnt you play Die Vecna Die?

Hmm. It seems you believe just as the Master wants you to. It is understandable though, you are a divineshadow after all and not an arcane one.

You see the Master prefers those who take what exists and makes it their own. Not those who can only borrow power from other entities and have none of their own. Don't worry though you'll soon forget this conversation ever too place!

On that note check check out Venca-Blooded Template on p.66 of Monster Manual V.

Soon! If I am diligent, this weekend. Trying to decide which one is next... ;)

-Chris / ErrantX

Keep up the good work! Also I recommend keeping these classes on par (power wise at least) with the martial adept classes we know and love!

Whether it's cleaner rules or something that helps close the gap between martials and casters, give me your list.

Here's some of mine.

Vecna (Paizo doesn't have a deity that can compare with the big V! I mean he's like the Dr Doom of D&D, though he would bow before Doom!)

Reshar (Bo9s fame! The guy is bad@$$! Talk about a guy who's mythic and could take down mythic casters. I can only imagine his personal maneuver set.)

Let's just say overall fluff. A lifetime's worth.

Darkstalker ("Nuff Said")

Maneuvers, Soulmelds, Psionics, Inspiration points, Invocations, Vestiges, (All excellent sub systems that helps characters be less cookie cutter.)

Some excellent prestige classes. (For all your dipping needs!)

Dragon & Dungeon magazine. (Chock-full of wholesome goodness.)

How the d&d 3.5 FAQ handled the use of armor spikes (Suck it! ;-)

Adiós.