Fighter VS monk


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

When focusing on unarmed combat, who wins? And I don't mean in a "versus each other scenario," but in your typical adventure setting/battles.

Who has the most accuracy, the most damage, and the most likelihood of survival?

I ask because one of my friends is trying to argue that a monk could outfight the fighter in unarmed combat, which I disagree with. I think a fighter specifically built for unnamed combat could still outfight a monk built for unarmed combat.

What are your thoughts on the matter?


In terms of DPR? The fighter almost certainly wins. In terms of avoiding that Dominate Person spell, jumping over the chasm, or getting past the front-line enemy meat shields to reach the caster in the back, the monk has the advantage.


Fighter will probably have higher damage output and AC... Monks have better saves so at higher levels they may have better survivability...

Overall... I think MoMS Monk 2/ Brawler Fighter X is probably the best unarmed combatant...

(Although I really like MoMS 2/ TWF Ranger X...)

Silver Crusade

Without knowing what level you're talking about:

Unarmed combat is supposed to be a Monk's shtick while armed combat is supposed to be the fighter's shtick. Fighters tend to have high Strength and Monks being as MAD as they are, can be all over the place.

If we assume no stat dumping, I think I would also have to give it to the Fighter simply because of full BAB and high Strength bonuses to hit and damage. That's my 2 cents for what it's worth.


Fighter wins. Monk sucks at everything.

Brawling armor, weapon training, gloves of dueling, weapon spec., etc...

Yeah, Fighter wins.


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StreamOfTheSky wrote:
Fighter wins. Monk sucks at everything.

Not true... They're really good at uselessly bouncing around the battlefield without causing damage!

And they are one of the best classes for creating endless threads with repetitive arguments!

Liberty's Edge

Lemmy wrote:
And they are one of the best classes for creating endless threads with repetitive arguments!

I dunno, fighters can probably match them in that regard as well.

To answer the OP, for accuracy and damage the fighter wins hands down. Monks are good at survival, though, especially when "survival" means "resist the save-or-lose effect."

Shadow Lodge

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Lemmy wrote:
StreamOfTheSky wrote:
Fighter wins. Monk sucks at everything.
Not true... They're really good at uselessly bouncing around the battlefield without causing damage!

Yep, and they make great trapfinders. Just send them in 50ft ahead using their super speed. If they die, 1.)don't step there and 2.)Roll up a new one. Or you could just have them be a very preservable source of food for the druids AC.

To the OP, A fighter-monk multi-class I say is better. You get some of the DPR of a monk and some of the big Saves That monks get.


Martial Artist Monk with Dragon style feats gives the fighter a run for his money DPR wise.


If the monk focused on Dex, there's a good chance he wins initiative.

So, with his first attack, he throws the fighter to the ground, then he does 1 point of damage with each of his 1800 attacks. The fighter spends a move action to get up. The monk takes a 5ft step. Next round, repeat. the monk whittles the fighter down one paper cut at a time.

Silver Crusade

@Justin Rocket:

lol, he's talking about in general, not PvP.

Scarab Sages

If they fought 100 times, the fighter wins 61 times. The monk wins 34 times. They kill each other simultaneously 5 times.

Thank you. Thank you very much.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

How would a monk even hope to trip a well-built fighter with any regularity anyways? Among all the other bonuses fighters get to CMD, many can also add their level to CMD versus trip attempts as well.

That's a pretty big deal after level five or so.

Liberty's Edge

The monk has volume, the fighter has accuracy.

When you add in Ki, the monk can hit more times than the fighter, period full stop.

But the fighter will hit more often with comparable if not more power, given the access they have to things like weapon training, weapon specialization, gloved of dualing, etc...

The monk has better saves, and the various immunities are very useful when you attack, by definition, touches pretty much everything.

IMHO it really depends on party composition.

Shadow Lodge

Monks add their level in place of there BaB at level 3, and if you are completely trip focused, you probably have good enough feats to trip a CMD Massive. But if you want to use Combat Maneuvers to screw over a fighter, make a Tetori that grapples, Constricts, then eventually pins and Hog Ties the fighter and drop him in a pit of acid or off a cliff.

Liberty's Edge

@RD - You know my general advice. Let's build it out, either level by level or by picking a level.

Sczarni

Ravingdork wrote:

When focusing on unarmed combat, who wins? And I don't mean in a "versus each other scenario," but in your typical adventure setting/battles.

Who has the most accuracy, the most damage, and the most likelihood of survival?

I ask because one of my friends is trying to argue that a monk could outfight the fighter in unarmed combat, which I disagree with. I think a fighter specifically built for unnamed combat could still outfight a monk built for unarmed combat.

What are your thoughts on the matter?

Based 100% on what you mentioned, asked, and what variables those involved at the minimal level:

The most accuracy would easily be the Fighter without a doubt.

The most damage is a bit of a toss-up depending on their methods of how they do that damage. My bet would be on the Monk in the longrun, but that is pure speculation and no immediate theorycraft.

As far as Survivability, the monk wins hands down. Outstanding AC that doesn't rely on anything but Wis/Dex and monk levels(also applies to touch). Top notch saves. Evasion/Imp Evasion and other fairly useful damage negating abilities or feats/bonus. It's really no contest.

Fighter Vs Monk, without actually having them fight eachother directly but indirectly through campaign settings, I would have to say the Monk would easily survive the longest, thus implying he would live to fight more, do more damage, explore more of the campaign, etc.

If you like, we can face off with two builds.


Justin Rocket wrote:

If the monk focused on Dex, there's a good chance he wins initiative.

So, with his first attack, he throws the fighter to the ground, then he does 1 point of damage with each of his 1800 attacks. The fighter spends a move action to get up. The monk takes a 5ft step. Next round, repeat. the monk whittles the fighter down one paper cut at a time.

5' step doesn't work like that. Standing isn't movement so the fighter 5' steps away and readies an action or 5' steps in and attacks if the monk tries to use his 5' step to avoid attacks.

And if you turn it into a maneuver battle the fighter wins except at extremely high point buy. For trip he can apply weapon training and take the greater feat, which the monk generally can't because of MADness and the int prereq. For grapple he can use brawling armor, which the monk can't. The only advantage the monk has is wisdom to CMD since the level scaling component of his armor bonus only offsets the reduced BAB. The monk's wis+dex+str needs to exceed the fighter's dex+str+2 for the monk to out-grapple a fighter with brawling armor and the monk is pretty much never going to out-trip a fighter.


Atarlost wrote:


5' step doesn't work like that. Standing isn't movement so the fighter 5' steps away and readies an action or 5' steps in and attacks if the monk tries to use his 5' step to avoid attacks.

How does he do that when he's starting from a prone position?

Atarlost wrote:


And if you turn it into a maneuver battle the fighter wins except at extremely high point buy. For trip he can apply weapon training and take the greater feat, which the monk generally can't because of MADness and the int prereq. For grapple he can use brawling armor, which the monk can't. The only advantage the monk has is wisdom to CMD since the level scaling component of his armor bonus only offsets the reduced BAB. The monk's wis+dex+str needs to exceed the fighter's dex+str+2 for the monk to out-grapple a fighter with brawling armor and the monk is pretty much never going to out-trip a fighter.

this is starting to sound like Schroedinger's fighter.

Liberty's Edge

ArmouredMonk13 wrote:
Monks add their level in place of there BaB at level 3, and if you are completely trip focused, you probably have good enough feats to trip a CMD Massive. But if you want to use Combat Maneuvers to screw over a fighter, make a Tetori that grapples, Constricts, then eventually pins and Hog Ties the fighter and drop him in a pit of acid or off a cliff.

Not likely to work - since we're talking about comparing specifically against an unarmed fighter, the odds are that the fighter's gonna have the unarmed fighter archetype, and right about the same time the tetori gets grab (and way before he gets constrict) is when the unarmed fighter gets the ability to take AoOs even if the grappler has grab or Improved Grapple. Since damage rolled from the AoO is added directly to the DC of the grapple attempt, the grapple's not gonna happen. (And that's not even counting the brawling armor enchantment, which is a auto-take for any unarmed fighter.)

Shadow Lodge

Why are you guys talking about PVP?

Ravingdork wrote:
And I don't mean in a "versus each other scenario," but in your typical adventure setting/battles.

Liberty's Edge

TOZ wrote:
Why are you guys talking about PVP?

Because the turn of the thread in that direction is basically inevitable, and I didn't feel like shouting at the storm. shrug


Justin Rocket wrote:

If the monk focused on Dex, there's a good chance he wins initiative.

So, with his first attack, he throws the fighter to the ground, then he does 1 point of damage with each of his 1800 attacks. The fighter spends a move action to get up. The monk takes a 5ft step. Next round, repeat. the monk whittles the fighter down one paper cut at a time.

Unless the Monk is Spring Attacking; why would the Fighter stand?

Liberty's Edge

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Why are they fighting each other...


Because the GM said so.


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ciretose wrote:
Why are they fighting each other...

Because it amuses their wizard overlords.


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Perhaps because having Schrödinger's Fighter fight Schrödinger's Monk is easier than building Fighters and Monks and comparing them?

Scarab Sages

Stupid melee classes fighting each other...


[Evil Mode]I find it so very amusing that the two Tier 5 classes are arguing over who is the best or worst.
'Tis akin to two guys, one with leukemia and the other with malign brain tumors, arguing who has the best type of cancer.[/evil mode]

[I do not mean to offend anyone by posting this, nor does this post reflect my opinions on cancer, I just found this to be the perfect opportunity to engage in some psychotic humor]


Chaotic Fighter wrote:
Because the GM said so.

The funniest part is that if the GM is assumed to be the OP, then the 'GM' specifically said they are not fighting each other :)


The game wouldn't be nearly as fun if players actually *listened* to their DMs.

DM: "Are you sure you want to do that...?"

Players: "Heck yeah!"

Shadow Lodge

Pure DPR with UNARMED STRIKE, I'd say a STR. based monk could out-damage a fighter because the fighter is stuck at 1d3+x damage. Now, ignoring the fact that Str. focused monks have a good chance of dying from not killing the foe in time because of a poor AC, The monk starts a 1d6+x(+3 is the highest that I see)vs. the fighter starting a 1d3+x(5 is the highest you could get at 1st level, which only fighter/barbs can pull off). So the difference isn't that big at lower levels.

@Ravingdork(the OP):Could you give us some race/level restrictions on this? Maybe like level 10 with both being the same? It would help get this thread away from the PvP aspect.


ArmouredMonk13 wrote:

Pure DPR with UNARMED STRIKE, I'd say a STR. based monk could out-damage a fighter because the fighter is stuck at 1d3+x damage. Now, ignoring the fact that Str. focused monks have a good chance of dying from not killing the foe in time because of a poor AC, The monk starts a 1d6+x(+3 is the highest that I see)vs. the fighter starting a 1d3+x(5 is the highest you could get at 1st level, which only fighter/barbs can pull off). So the difference isn't that big at lower levels.

@Ravingdork(the OP):Could you give us some race/level restrictions on this? Maybe like level 10 with both being the same? It would help get this thread away from the PvP aspect.

At level 1, the Fighter isn't as good correct (though better AC at 1st since 15 PB is normal).

But the Fighter gets better with Brawling armor (light armor only no Amulet: adds boost to hit/dam unarmed strikes), weapon training, gloves of dueling, weapon spec., etc...

1d3 + X when X is huge means the fighter beats 1d10 (which is only 4 points higher on average) + X when X is lower by more than 4.

Liberty's Edge

If only there were an item the monk could access that were cheaper than gloves of dueling that made that 1d10 into 2d6...

I don't know the answer to the question, but I do know the way to find the answer.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

My friend and I never really discussed level.

Liberty's Edge

The way it seems to me, the fighter can access +4 to attack and +6 to damage on the 1d3, so somewhere in the +8 range before strength.

The monk can access 2d6 (7) vs the 1d3 (1.5?) so difference of +5.5.

The fighter will hit more accurately, by far. The monk gets an extra attack when it burns ki.

On pure damage, the fighter would likely pull ahead, but would have lesser saves, immunities, etc...

But this is all guessing without full builds.


A fighter also gains much more from a dip in monk than vice versa. Just the base damage alone goes up from 1d3 to 1d6, or 2 to 3.5 in terms of average damage. The monk, on the other hand, until very late levels is only gaining +1 average damage from base weapon damage increases, and is waiting 4 levels for each of them. The initial jump to 1d6 w/ only 1 level of monk is the significant part of their differences, is what I'm saying.

Also, while a (flurrying) monk cannot tack on naturals to the end of his full attack, a fighter simply TWF with unarmed can, which can potentially mean full attack TWF + bite + claw + claw, for instance.
Of course, a monk could drop flurry for MoMS or another archetype, take the actual TWF feats, and get around that disadvantage.


He would have less feats work with which would ultimately hurt a MoMS.

Liberty's Edge

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Schrodingers Fighter had claws and a bite attack to go with invisibility I see...off to bed, see if this gets productive by morning or if it is just more of the same...


I was stating some potential advantages one side has over the other that hadn't been mentioned, not making an actual build... ah, screw it. I can't even post in threads with ciretose anymore, at least not until the board tolerates massive streams of cursing.

Maybe I will do a photoshop of the "I'm not saying it was aliens...but it was aliens!" demotivational poster for ciretose and his Schroedinger obsession, though.


StreamOfTheSky wrote:
Because it amuses their wizard overlords.

Hahaha... Dance puppets dance! No matter who wins between the two of you we all know you both lose in the end! Ahahaha! Ahh... this thread makes me laugh a lot.

@Sky You aren't the first one to have that thought.


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Decided to toss together a couple builds for an unarmed fighter and a martial artist monk, just to see what I could come up with. Neither of these are particularly amazing builds, since i pretty much just cranked them out on the basis of what's been mentioned in the thread and what I could come up with on my own.

Doing both as Oni-Spawn Tieflings with dumped Charisma, and 20 point buy.

Unarmed Fighter

Spoiler:

Str: 20 (22) (+2 level boost)
Dex: 14 (16)
Con: 14 (16)
Int: 12
Wis: 14
Cha: 5

Feats
1: Power Attack
Bonus: Dragon Style
F2: Weapon Focus: Unarmed Strike
3: Iron Will
F4: Weapon Specialization: Unarmed Strike
5: Armor of the Pit
F6: Dragon Ferocity
7: Medium Armor Proficiency
F8: Elemental Fist
9: Imp. Iron Will
F10: Greater Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike)

Traits:
+1 Will Save
Valishmal Veteran (Perception as a class skill)

Skillls:
Acrobatics: 13
Knowledge (Dungeoneering): 14
Perception: 15

Gear
+1 Amulet of Fists
+1 Brawling Mithril Breastplate
+2 Belt of Perfection
+2 Ring of Prot
+2 Amulet of Nat. Armor
+2 Cloak of Resistance
Gloves of Dueling

Stats
Atk: +25/+20 (+22/+17 w/Power Attack)
Dam: 1d3 + 18 (1d3 + 27 w/Power Attack) [Average Damage: 20 (29)]
AC: 26
Fort: +12
Refl: +8
Will: +10

Standard Action DPR:: 30.305
Fighter DPR: (w/Power Attack): 52.645
Hasted DPR (w/Power Attack): 82.95
Elemental Fist: + 9.975 DPR (Assuming no resistance/vulnerability)

Monk (Martial Artist)

Spoiler:

Str: 18 (20) (+1 level bonus)
Dex: 14 (16)
Con: 14 (16)
Int: 10
Wis: 18 (20) (+1 level bonus)
Cha: 5

Feats:
1: Armor of the Pit
M1: Dodge
M2: Scorpion Style
3: Dragon Style
5: Dragon Ferocity
M6: Gorgon's Fist
7: Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike)
9: Weapon Specialization (unarmed Strike)
M10: Medusa's Wrath

Traits:
+1 Fort Save
+1 Will Save

Skills:
Acrobatics: +16
Perception: +18
Sense Motive: +18
Stealth: +16

Gear
+2 Amulet of Fists
+2 Headband of Wisdom
+2 Belt of Perfection
+2 Ring of Prot
+3 Cloak of Resistance
Monk's Robes

Stats
Atk: +15 (+13 w/Power Attack) [+2 w/Exploit Weakness]
Flurry: +16/+16/+11/+11 (+13/+13/+8/+8 w/Power Attack) [+2 w/Exploit Weakness]
Dam: 2d6 + 11 (2d6 + 20 w/Power Attack) [Average Damage: 18 (27)]
AC: 26
Fort: +14
Refl: +13
Will: +16

Standard Action DPR:: 17.82
Monk DPR (W/Power Attack): 44.55
Monk DPR (W/Power Attack & Exploit Weakness): 56.43
Hasted DPR (W/Power Attack & Exploit Weakness): 71.685
DPR w/Medusa's Wrath + Haste + Exploit Weakness: 102.195

Evaluation: While I'm admittedly no expert on unarmed combat (Both my builds are a lot way from perfect) I'd have to put the DPR at close to a tie for the moment. Fighter DPR maxes out lower than the monk, but he wins on standard action/single attacks by a large margin, and the max monk DPR required succeeding on Exploit Weakness and activating Medusa's Wrath.

Addendum/Edit:
The tiefling can use the Maw of Claw racial substitution to gain natural attacks. Doing so would bump up the fighter's DPR, But wouldn't do much for the monk since natural attacks can't be used in addition to Flurry of Blows. If I got the math right, adding a bite attack would increase the fighter's full attack DPR by about eight points, which would give it a DPR win so long as the monk can't activate Medusa's Wrath.


ciretose wrote:
@RD - You know my general advice. Let's build it out, either level by level or by picking a level.

then how come you never posted your fighter build for the fighter ranger thread.

A lot can be determined without full builds even if CIterose thinks otherwise. That being said unfortunately in this case it all comes down to the build( I agreed with Citerose I feel a little dirty :)). MOnks win on number of attacks unless you have multiple natural attacks...so you need a race to compare. The Tetori monk will out grapple(and that counts as unarmed damage right) unless the fighter is a lore warden(in which case I think the fighter wins) or an unarmed fighter(a lot fuzzier haven't seen as many well actually any)

I know a fighter wins in damage and the monk in defense because in a similar thread I saw, but unfortunately cant find because of the trillions of monk thread(I'm pretty sure Dabbler started it if thats any help. Im pretty sure it isnt, but there you have it)that a paladin using brass knuckles equaled the damage of monk before smite in another thread. Although this was before the monk amulet buff.

THe real question is whether a fighters wins, a monk wins, or IMO the real answer the fighter with 2 levels of MoMS. How much more powerful than the base class is a small dip in that monk archetype? It reminds me of the old 3.0 truism that to make the best rangers you took 1 level in ranger and then went into barbarian, rogue, or druid because the class was so front loaded and what you got later was pretty underpowered. If 2 levels of monk then you level as another class gives you a better unarmed combat than the base class we can show that the class needs a LOT more help.


Justin Rocket wrote:
Atarlost wrote:


5' step doesn't work like that. Standing isn't movement so the fighter 5' steps away and readies an action or 5' steps in and attacks if the monk tries to use his 5' step to avoid attacks.
How does he do that when he's starting from a prone position?

He reads the rules. A 5' step is a free action anyone can take if they haven't moved. Not all move equivalent actions are movement. Standing from prone, in particular, leaves you in the same square you started in. Your monk is trying to play silly reach games that don't work and isn't even threatening when his opponent stands up.

Justin Rocket wrote:
Atarlost wrote:


And if you turn it into a maneuver battle the fighter wins except at extremely high point buy. For trip he can apply weapon training and take the greater feat, which the monk generally can't because of MADness and the int prereq. For grapple he can use brawling armor, which the monk can't. The only advantage the monk has is wisdom to CMD since the level scaling component of his armor bonus only offsets the reduced BAB. The monk's wis+dex+str needs to exceed the fighter's dex+str+2 for the monk to out-grapple a fighter with brawling armor and the monk is pretty much never going to out-trip a fighter.
this is starting to sound like Schroedinger's fighter.

This is math. Assuming equal deflection bonuses and weapon enhancement from equipment and/or spells:

A fighter's CMD is his strength+dex+HD.
A monk's CMD is his strength+dex+wis+HD. Because of point buy the monk is unlikely to have as much strength or dexterity as a fighter unless he has little wisdom.

The CMB of a fighter invested in grapple is his str+HD+6 (two grapple feats and the brawling armor property).
The CMB of a monk invested in grapple is his str+HD+4 (two grapple feats).

The CMB of a figher invested in trip is his str+HD+6+weapon training. (brawling again. Trip, Disarm, and Sunder benefit from anything that benefits attack rolls and brawling is untyped.)
The CMB of a monk invested in trip is str+HD+4.

The fighter's CMB is generally 2 higher at mid levels if he focuses on a maneuver. His CMD is lower by a variable amount generally less than 2.

Let's take humans or half-humans with the elite array (15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8) for example and assume both put the highest four in strength, dexterity, intelligence, and wisdom in that order so they can both get greater trip and because it doesn't matter to the monk whether wisdom is 12 or 13. For grapple the monk's CMB-fighter's CMD is 1 lower than the fighter's CMB-the monk's CMD. For trip the gap is 1+weapon training.

Monks have only slightly higher CMD except at high point buys. Fighters have significantly higher CMB at any point buy. Unless the monk is specialized in maneuvers and the fighter isn't the fighter will win a combat maneuver fight.

Liberty's Edge

proftobe wrote:
ciretose wrote:
@RD - You know my general advice. Let's build it out, either level by level or by picking a level.
then how come you never posted your fighter build for the fighter ranger thread.

Didn't I?

There are so many of these threads I lose track? Link me to it and I will correct.


Ravingdork wrote:

When focusing on unarmed combat, who wins? And I don't mean in a "versus each other scenario," but in your typical adventure setting/battles.

Who has the most accuracy, the most damage, and the most likelihood of survival?

I ask because one of my friends is trying to argue that a monk could outfight the fighter in unarmed combat, which I disagree with. I think a fighter specifically built for unnamed combat could still outfight a monk built for unarmed combat.

What are your thoughts on the matter?

From what i hear the real power of the monk lies hidden in his grapple abilities so the fighter probably will punch you harder but the monk can grapple you and latter on gets some sweet bonuses from there animal form and huge speed and jump increases my friend is playing one and enjoys it a lot.


ciretose wrote:
Schrodingers Fighter had claws and a bite attack to go with invisibility I see...off to bed, see if this gets productive by morning or if it is just more of the same...

Oh give it a rest. This is a forum: we don't come here to be "productive" we come here to have an interesting discussion.


Dlast000 wrote:
From what i hear the real power of the monk lies hidden in his grapple abilities so the fighter probably will punch you harder but the monk can grapple you and latter on gets some sweet bonuses from there animal form and huge speed and jump increases my friend is playing one and enjoys it a lot.

Since when did monk's get an animal form!?

Anyways... Yes, Tetori monks are pretty kickbutt at grappling. They can feel one trick pony at times. The core monk isn't much if any better at grappling than the fighter though, because neither of them have an innate bonus to CMD(nilla' anyway. Archetypes help. Tetori is all about grappling and gets unique skills for it, and lore warden gets a +8 to CMD and CMB over his career)


MrSin wrote:
Dlast000 wrote:
From what i hear the real power of the monk lies hidden in his grapple abilities so the fighter probably will punch you harder but the monk can grapple you and latter on gets some sweet bonuses from there animal form and huge speed and jump increases my friend is playing one and enjoys it a lot.

Since when did monk's get an animal form!?

Anyways... Yes, Tetori monks are pretty kickbutt at grappling. They can feel one trick pony at times. The core monk isn't much if any better at grappling than the fighter though, because neither of them have an innate bonus to CMD(nilla' anyway. Archetypes help. Tetori is all about grappling and gets unique skills for it, and lore warden gets a +8 to CMD and CMB over his career)

My bad I mean animal aspect or whatever it is


StreamOfTheSky wrote:

Fighter wins. Monk sucks at everything.

Brawling armor, weapon training, gloves of dueling, weapon spec., etc...

Yeah, Fighter wins.

Monk wins. Fighter sucks at everything.

High saves, dimension door, amulet of might fists, AC bonus, etc...

Yeah, Monk wins.

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