Fighter wins. Monk sucks at everything.
Brawling armor, weapon training, gloves of dueling, weapon spec., etc...
Yeah, Fighter wins.
Monk wins. Fighter sucks at everything.
High saves, dimension door, amulet of might fists, AC bonus, etc...
Yeah, Monk wins.
You're both very helpful.
How is amulet of mighty fist a plus anyway?
My advice? Maybe build out a few builds at level ten (seems to be the standard) comparing fighters and monks in damage, survivability, and combat maneuvers. Twenty point buy. Human, if we want to compare just classes, and not what the classes can do with racial abilities.
You're both very helpful.Fighter wins. Monk sucks at everything.
Brawling armor, weapon training, gloves of dueling, weapon spec., etc...
Yeah, Fighter wins.
Monk wins. Fighter sucks at everything.
High saves, dimension door, amulet of might fists, AC bonus, etc...
Yeah, Monk wins.
thanks
i´m just showing how helpful some comments can be. = )
I think that Fighter or Monk depends of the build and the situation.
Some points that are better in each class in my opinion:
Fighter: to Hit, CMB, HP, Armor Proficiency, Maneuvers, battleground tactics in general.
Monk: Damage, CMD, Touch AC, Saves, immunities, battleground mobility.
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Ughbash the cap isn't 2d10.
Here are the questions I think are best addressed by build.
The monk is MAD, so you would think he would have a strength gap. But the unarmed fighter needs TWF, so you need a 15 Dex off the bat if you want to take TWF early...
Functionally, Flurry is fully BaB TWF, but the fighter will be able to pull ahead when weapon training comes into play.
On the other hand, things like monk robe increase unarmed damage. And stunning fist and the variants also come into play, not to mention extra attacks with ki.
It isn't a simple question.
Ughbash the cap isn't 2d10.
Here are the questions I think are best addressed by build.
The monk is MAD, so you would think he would have a strength gap. But the unarmed fighter needs TWF, so you need a 15 Dex off the bat if you want to take TWF early...
Functionally, Flurry is fully BaB TWF, but the fighter will be able to pull ahead when weapon training comes into play.
I didn't have much trouble building an unarmed fighter who could match/beat monk DPR without taking TWF.
I didn't have much trouble building an unarmed fighter who could match/beat monk DPR without taking TWF.Ughbash the cap isn't 2d10.
Here are the questions I think are best addressed by build.
The monk is MAD, so you would think he would have a strength gap. But the unarmed fighter needs TWF, so you need a 15 Dex off the bat if you want to take TWF early...
Functionally, Flurry is fully BaB TWF, but the fighter will be able to pull ahead when weapon training comes into play.
Then he had room for improvement in the damage department.
Monks can reach 8d8 of base unarmed.damage, i don't think a unarmed fighter can keep with that
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I didn't have much trouble building an unarmed fighter who could match/beat monk DPR without taking TWF.Ughbash the cap isn't 2d10.
Here are the questions I think are best addressed by build.
The monk is MAD, so you would think he would have a strength gap. But the unarmed fighter needs TWF, so you need a 15 Dex off the bat if you want to take TWF early...
Functionally, Flurry is fully BaB TWF, but the fighter will be able to pull ahead when weapon training comes into play.
And I favorited your post, as it was nice to actually see numbers in context.
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Monks can reach 8d8 of base unarmed.damage, i don't think a unarmed fighter can keep with thatAh, enlargement. Forgot about that. 2d10 is the base cap then.
Yup, monk robes increase it, size increases it, I'm sure there are other things I'm not thinking of off the top of my head that increase it.
I think the fighter will still be somewhat ahead, but I don't know. And then you also have to compare it to see if the difference is worth the other advantages.
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In the section of the core rulebook it says class features with a set increase rate continue to increase, so the monk damage would go up at 24th level and each four levels afterwards. Monk's Robe could do this. There are also other bonuses from having a monk's robe on. If you could multiclass you could get a base damage of 12d8 damage with druid levels, but that is more druid than it is monk so it is kind of cheating.
I didn't think the monk's robes could increase it past 2d10, since there isn't a progression.In 3.5 the chart kept going based on the damage progression, I don't know if it was ever addressed in Pathfinder.
Unarmed Strike
The damage for a monk’s unarmed strike does not increase after 20th level.
Please don't forget that the fighter can benefit from nearly all the size increasing effects that a monk can.
When I think of mental comparisons, I think of all the things they DON'T have in common.
Ability scores, size increases, magic items; these are all things that could be identical between the two.
But things like Weapon Training, Greater Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization, Flurry of Blows, etc. That's where the gap between the two begins to really widen or narrow.
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So let's do a level at a time.
First level figher needs a 15 Dex, so we are looking at near equal MAD.
If both have 18 Str, the Fighter needs TWF and improved unarmed, which is all the feats if not human, to match.
Both have the same full attack bonus, fighter is +1 when moving unless the monk takes weapon focus, then it is a push.
Monk does 1d6, Fighter does 1d3.
So first level goes to monk for damage, but probably Fighter for defense given d10 and better armor.
Who wants to take level 2?
15 dex makes the fighter mad? I don't know if you know what mad means.
I made an unarmed fighter for a player in my game and he far out damages a monk of the same level. His saves suck his AC is ok. Level 12.
I too fail to see why the fighter MUST take two-weapon fighting. Would he not deal more damage by avoiding decreases to his accuracy?
15 dex makes the fighter mad? I don't know if you know what mad means.Multi-ability dependent, as in if you need a Strength and Dex over 15, and Con and Wisdom over 12...
You jumping in to be useful or just throwing spitballs?
Well, a fighter is expected to have a higher dex in order to benefit from his armor training. The thing is both the fighter and the monk require a higher dex, but monk requires a higher wisdom. Monk is mad because he needs str/dex/con and wisdom, but the fighter only needs str/dex/con. No one dumps wisdom sans maybe a paladin, and no one dumps dex except maybe an oracle. The monk is usually more MAD, and its not abnormal for him to get an agile AoMF to make himself less mad out of what feels like necessity.
Just pointing out requiring str/dex/con isn't really that MAD.
+26/+26/+21/+21/+16/+16/+11 is the fighters at endgame with gloves of dueling and weapon focus and improved weapon focus. A full +8 over the monk, but no extra hits from ki. He also gets D3+4+2+4, a total of 11.5 average, and its far more static; though the D3 looks pitiful. It also requires 2 feats and an item.
If the fighter goes dex build(He might plan to if he's nabbing twf), he may consider using mithral breastplate armor and putting the brawling enchant, which would add plus 2 to his attack and damage again. Monk doesn't get that pleasure, but I won't math it out because its a maybe. If using 3.5 rules the fighter can also nab superior unarmed strike, and this gets worse because the fighter will do 2D6 damage with his fist. That however is very unlikely. Still, funny to imagine this guy in a breastplate punching through things with the force of a cannon.
The fighter is very likely going to out damage the monk I'd think, but the monk is going to have much better saves and 2 extra skill points.
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I would suggest using the standard array for both parties, for the same reasons as in the DPR Olympics.
For the fighter, I would choose a human with the dual talented racial trait and the unarmed fighter archetype. Stat array would be Str 15 (+2 racial), Dex 14 (+2 racial), Con 13, Wis 12, Int 10, Cha 8. Feats would be Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Unarmed Strike* and Dragon Style*. AC is 17 (chain shirt), saves are Fort +3, Ref +3, Will +1, hit points are 12.
For the monk, pure DPR suggests the martial artist archetype, although that does cost you ki-powered additional attacks down the road. Regardless, though, I would again go dual talented human, with a starting array of Str 15 (+2 racial), Dex 13, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 14 (+2 racial), Cha 8. Feats would be Stunning Fist*, Improved Unarmed Strike*, Dodge*, and Turtle Style. AC is 16, saves are Fort +3, Ref +3, Will +5, hit points are 10.
The fighter is attacking at +4 for 1d3+4, or +2/+2 for 1d3+4/1d3+1.
The monk is attacking at +3 for 1d6+3 or +2/+2 for 1d6+3/1d6+3.
I too fail to see why the fighter MUST take two-weapon fighting. Would he not deal more damage by avoiding decreases to his accuracy?
He doesn't have to, but fighter is probably one of the classes that benefits most from it because he gets plentiful static modifiers to it to help even out the -2, especially with magic items. Not willing to do the number crunching myself. I did however post a large comparison in spoilers just above.
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So again, who wants to take 2nd level, or are there disputes as to first level.
Why not just do level 5, 10, 15 and 20 level comparisons? It gives comparisons at the lower end of the game, before a lot of things come into play but after enough has been done to give significant changes, then you get the average level 10, then 15 where things are accelerating and damage you have more gold to throw around and have better feats, then the endgame level 20.
My only dispute is if you're going to use the Martial artist for the monk to maximize damage then you should use the Brawler for the fighter to maximize damage as well.
Why brawler for fighter? Why not unarmed fighter? Or nilla? Brawler actually reduces damage, but unarmed and nilla' retain all the weapon training with unarmed.
Edit: Nvm, misread brawler. Still, there are other choices.
Just reminding people that there's more than one fighter archetype that can fight unarmed.
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To get the ball rolling
5th Level Human Monk
18 Str
12 Dex
12 Con
10 Int
16 Wis (+1 4th)
9 Cha
+7/+7 1d8 + 4 (1d8+6 on first) (-1+2 Power attack)
Feats: 1st Dodge (monk), Toughness, Improved Initiative, 2nd Deflect Arrows, 3rd Power attack, 5th Dragon Style.
Very basic, no equipment, I'll flesh it out more but I need to put my daughter to bed soon.
Why is it getting a +3 for power attack?
Is Dragon Style supposed to be in there?
If I were to do a Dwarf monk, 20 point buy, I would do:
Str 18 (17+1 at 4th)
Dex 12
Con 14 (12+2 racial)
Int 10
Wis 16 (14+2 racial)
Cha 6 (8-2 racial)
Well while your at it, it looks like your character is 23 point buy. Unless my brain isn't working?
Here's my monk array for a 20 point human
17 14 14 10 14 8
A fighter array for comparison
18 14 14 10 10 10
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Well, tweaked my unarmed fighter build from earlier in the thread to use Two-Weapon fighting and one or two more DPR boosting tricks. Here's the result:
Str: 20 (22) (+2 level boost)
Dex: 15 (17)
Con: 14 (16)
Int: 10
Wis: 14
Cha: 5
Feats
1: Two-Weapon Fighting
Bonus: Dragon Style
F2: Weapon Focus: Unarmed Strike
3: Power Attack
F4: Weapon Specialization: Unarmed Strike
5: Armor of the Pit
F6: Dragon Ferocity
7: Imp. Two-Weapon Fighting
F8: Double Slice
9: Iron Will
F10: Greater Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike)
Raial Substitution:
Maw or Claw (Bite attack)
Traits:
Armor Exper
Valishmal Veteran (Perception as a class skill)
Skillls:
Acrobatics: 13
Perception: 15
Gear
+1 Amulet of Fists
+1 Brawling Mithril Breastplate
+2 Belt of Perfection
+2 Ring of Prot
+2 Amulet of Nat. Armor
+2 Cloak of Resistance
Gloves of Dueling
Stats
Atk: +23/+23/+18/+18/+14 (+20/+20/+15/+15/+11 w/Power Attack)
Unarmed Strike: 1d3 + 18 (1d3 + 27 w/Power Attack) [Average Damage: 20 (29)]
Bite: 1d6 + 8 (1d3 + 11 w/PowerAttack) [Average Damage: 11.5/14.5]
AC: 26
Fort: +12
Refl: +8
Will: +10
Full Attack DPR: 98.89
Full Attck w/Haste: 126.005
5th Level Human Unarmed Fighter
STR 18 (16+2 Dual Talent)
Dex 17 (14+2+1 LV4 and Dual Talent)
Con 14
Int 12
Wis 10
Cha 8
1st Improved Unarmed Strike, Dragon Style, Two Weapon Fighting
2nd Power Attack
3rd Weapon Focus(Unarmed)
4th Weapon Specialization
5th Iron Will
For the basic level five build
@Chaotic Fighter:You have 1 too many feats. Unarmed Fighters don't get a bonus feat at 1st level and dual-talent replaces human bonus feat.
You actually get two bonus feats as an unarmed fighter.
At 1st level, a unarmed fighter gains the Improved Unarmed Strike feat and any single style feat as a bonus feat. The unarmed fighter need not meet all the prerequisites of the style feat he chooses, but style feats that grant additional uses of the Elemental Fist feat cannot be taken until the unarmed fighter has that feat.
This ability replaces the bonus feat at 1st level.