To expand on this, offence effectively counts toward offence AND defence. Defence only counts toward defence. So if you want to balance offence and defence in a class, you have to give twice as much defence for a downgrade in offence. The paladin gets it about right - against most foes his offence isn't stellar, save when smiting when he's awesome. His defences, though, are very good to make up from that downgrade in offence (save when smiting).
The monk gets it way wrong. His offence is moderate at best and poor at worst, but his defence is not as good as the paladin.
Let me see. I can't speak for unarmed combat. Unarmed combat is always inferior to armed combat due to crit range.
I've run a monk with a fighter to around level 14. The fighter is not focused on unarmed combat.
What I've found.
1. Monk and Fighter started off close. As levels rise and fighter gets more feats and abilities he does more straight damage. All the bonuses add up and hits more often. Crit range is what really separated the monk and fighter. The fighter was using dual falcatas. A monk can't touch crit damage because base damage becomes a much smaller portion of damage at higher levels.
One of the biggest problems with the monk unarmed is the lack of ability to elevate crit range to anything competitive to a weapon user. Crits are everything at higher level. Even a fighter using a lower crit range weapon will do less damage even with a higher crit multiplier because crit range elevates static bonuses.
2. Standard AC the monk and fighter are similar. That's probably because the fighter and monk I ran were a Two-weapon fighter and a standard monk. So no shield bonus for the fighter. Though his AC did elevate when doing a full-attack. He was able to get more bang from his armor due to buying armor enchants.
3. One area where the monk shined is combat movement. She could engage far faster than the fighter. If there was any movement over 40 feet, she was in combat a round in advance or more.
4. Anything requiring a will or reflex save gave the fighter problems. Reflex save is usually easily healed. But the fighter was getting big time tired of all the fear, charms, and everything else that required a will save hammering him. ring of freedom of movement mitigated the hold spell problem. He was still running from a lot of combats. He was affected by a lot of will save abilities that are not fun to deal with. Almost made the fighter quit playing his character at higher level dealing with all the creatures that have Will save auras and attacks.
Other than the saves, there is not a lot the monk offers compared to the fighter. Though fighter can be a real pain if you don't have a good healer or condition remover. That can be very frustrating to deal with.
As far as straight fight goes, I'd put my money on the Unarmed Fighter versus the Unarmed Monk. That 2d10 damage even versus 1d3 will not make up for Weapon Training, Greater Weapon Spec, Brawler Armor, Cestus's with Vicious or some kind of energy damage, a pure focus on Strength, and Critical Feats to cause additional effects. The static +6 to hit and +8 damage from Weapon Training and Greater Weapon Focus/Weapon Training alone offset most of the damage of 2d10 unarmed damage.
wouldn't something like a MoMS 4/Brawler X be the best route to take due to the feat that allows for the monks unarmed damage dice to progress?
You get quite a bit out of four levels of monk. The trade off is what? Four hit points and one bab? seems like a fair trade for the saves and the style feats early.
wouldn't something like a MoMS 4/Brawler X be the best route to take due to the feat that allows for the monks unarmed damage dice to progress?
You get quite a bit out of four levels of monk. The trade off is what? Four hit points and one bab? seems like a fair trade for the saves and the style feats early.
I think the standard setup for that is MoMS 2/Brawler X to get the style feats, but your style could work to keep some of the larger unarmed strike damage dice in addition to the brawler's large damage bonuses.
1. Monk and Fighter started off close. As levels rise and fighter gets more feats and abilities he does more straight damage. All the bonuses add up and hits more often. Crit range is what really separated the monk and fighter. The fighter was using dual falcatas. A monk can't touch crit damage because base damage becomes a much smaller portion of damage at higher levels.
One of the biggest problems with the monk unarmed is the lack of ability to elevate crit range to anything competitive to a weapon user. Crits are everything at higher level. Even a fighter using a lower crit range weapon will do less damage even with a higher crit multiplier because crit range elevates static bonuses.
My experience exactly.
2. Standard AC the monk and fighter are similar. That's probably because the fighter and monk I ran were a Two-weapon fighter and a standard monk. So no shield bonus for the fighter. Though his AC did elevate when doing a full-attack. He was able to get more bang from his armor due to buying armor enchants.
A two-handed fighter has the same issue, but generally AC is not a huge problem for a monk provided that they don't dump dex for strength. What makes a difference are the hit points.
3. One area where the monk shined is combat movement. She could engage far faster than the fighter. If there was any movement over 40 feet, she was in combat a round in advance or more.
Is that a good thing? All that means is the enemy get an uninterrupted round to beat on you alone. It's good for rushing over to a colleague in trouble, but it hurts the monk to be down to 3/4 BAB.
4. Anything requiring a will or reflex save gave the fighter problems. Reflex save is usually easily healed. But the fighter was getting big time tired of all the fear, charms, and everything else that required a will save hammering him. ring of freedom of movement mitigated the hold spell problem. He was still running from a lot of combats. He was affected by a lot of will save abilities that are not fun to deal with. Almost made the fighter quit playing his character at higher level dealing with all the creatures that have Will save auras and attacks.
Most fighters I've played and seen played have remembered not to dump Wis, and to take Iron Will ASAP as well as any traits that boost their Will saves. It's hard for a fighter to match a monk, but it's not hard to have decent Will save. Given that you won't have to make so many of them because you kill things faster...
Dabbler,
Point 3: I like to engage since I have Crane Style. Crane Style not as fun when you don't get attacked.
Point 4: He tried to build up the Will Save. It gets to a point where Iron Will and Wisdom don't help enough. Monk is a Wisdom focused character with good saves across the board.
At level 15 a Fighter's best base will save will be something like +14 with a cloak of resistance, a wisdom boosting item, and Iron Will.
The DC of fear auras and such is usually low to mid 20s. Higher for dragons or casters with built up stats and abilities. It can be rough making those saves.
I'd like to see a comparison on how well the fighter can do the monk's role.
Depends on the fighter and monk your comparing. The monk doesn't have any innate bonus to acrobatics, but he can burn his swift action for the round to get a single +20 to a single acrobatics roll at the cost of a ki point. Usually going against CMD is a fools game though, because at later levels creatures size/strength increases so their CMD skyrockets. Getting past a human guard with 12 levels in fighter is way easier than a 12 HD Huge creature(+2 innate CMD, +16ish strength). +20 is pretty great though so...
Mind you that's also a rather niche role and doesn't always work. Ideally the squishy guy in back buffed to not be so squishy.
The monk's role is a weird one we could argue about for a time.
At those high levels, monk has dimn door for when its needed.
Okay, and then he loses any other action for that round.
But still squishier than the fighter. And, in a more general sense, the monk can get anywhere on the field pretty quickly. He should not try to match an enemy strength to strength. He should try to match the enemy weakness to strength (getting wizards into melee, helping rogues flank, etc.)
So... he's a martial who can't beat up other martials so he rushes the wizard? That doesn't sound good! I get rushing the wizard who was stupid and didn't buff, but I would like to think he should be able to go toe to toe with other martials. Being a flank buddy is something everyone can do, rushing the guy in back is something anyone can do(archers best imo), and being mobile is also something everyone else can build to be.
Granted. But, the monk's role and fighter's role are different.
Aye, but now we have to find out the monk's weird role. Something about mobility that he isn't innately better at right?
Except the monk doesn't do acrobatics much better than anyone else. Depending on level he might have enough movement to ignore the foe completely, but he isn't actually much better at moving through threatened squares. So its a role to be mobile yes, but its not one he's much if at all better than others at.
The Bard cannot match the Monk in combat? Your right I suppose in the sense that the Bard will be better than the Monk at combat and the Monk cannot match him...
Except the monk doesn't do acrobatics much better than anyone else.That's an overstatement. His competitors in this are classes that have Acrobatics as a class skill and wear light or no armor. That's the Bard and the Rogue. And, once the character gets to the wizard, what's he going to do? The Rogue's most powerful combat ability typically involves flanking and there will be no one he can flank with. The Bard just can't match the Monk in combat.
You forgot barbarian for acrobatics(Why isn't it in class for more? Apparently rangers aren't known for striding when they're based after a guy named Strider... weird.) The rogue and bard aren't the only ones that wear light armor. Hitting 1 or 0 ACP is easy, as is getting acrobatics in class. I'd say monks are better if they had a class feature that increases acrobatics by doing something like adding wisdom to their check, but they don't. And again, no guarantees it gets you past the dragon with 43 CMD. Balor have 54 for another iconic(CR 20). CMD is a losing race unfortunately.
The bard fights much differently in combat than the monk. Not sure if that's a fair comparison or if there's a good way to compare it. My last bard was a dervish dancer with blade of mercy, enforcer, and a AoMF with Cruel on it. Wore a mithral breastplate and had armor expert. He was... interesting.
Something to keep in mind is that, in a real game, its really not the role of the monk to face off against the fighter. It is the role of the monk to go around the crunchy fighter and get to the creamy goodness of the wizard.
I'd like to see a comparison on how well the fighter can do the monk's role.
I don't think this is the case. Not every combat is going to have a creamy-centered wizard.
Quite often you fight some big monster or some powerful undead melee guy with a high AC and DR. This is a real problem for the monk. It's not a fun problem either.
How about those times when you're fighting a dragon and his AC is so high you miss and miss and miss and miss. That sucks. Or a powerful outsider and you miss him or can't penetrate his DR.
A fighter can do the job on a wizard quite well when supported by a party. If the wizard can't evade the fighter somehow, he dies quite quickly. A lot of the time you aren't fighting enemies in areas large enough for the wizard or other caster enemy to maneuver out of range of the fighter. If the fighter is an archer and he goes first, that wizard is in a world of hurt. So is the cleric or even another fighter-type. Archers do sick damage.
Yeah, my bard would kick the snot out of most monks. Its an archetype though, so its not a super fair comparison.
Also, I'd like to see how a 12th Barbarian can out-tumble a Monk of the same level.
Invulnerable/Urban barbarian with a dex build. He can still nab come and get me, dazing assult, and greater beast totem and is likely to have great AC. Spend one feat on armor expert and another on something to get acrobatics like rice runner. He's subpar compared to a strength build sure, but he's got great AC, natural armor, pounce, come and get me, DR 6/-. Lots of tankyness. 40 foot movement, though flight is a thing at higher levels and that's 60 feet or so. Think he could beat the monk at that game?
As for a bard, I just gave a not so MAD build that was made to give enemies a -4, was built on dex, and had 0 ACP. Doesn't matter the archetype for the build. Like I said though, not a fair comparison because they fight differently. The bard being big on boosting everyone else and a skill monkey and the monk being about... mobility? Do we get to count what he does for everyone else?
Someone please build a 12th level Bard, archetype or not is your choice, 25 point buy. I'd like to see how you derived the conclusion that such a Bard can beat a Monk in melee.
Also, I'd like to see how a 12th Barbarian can out-tumble a Monk of the same level.
I'd rather see it at 10th level, with 20pt buy. It's closer to PFS and, IME, home games as well. I might build something just for entertainment... Not now, though.
Regarding the Barbarian you alluded to, the rules on Acrobatics state that you move at half speed when tumbling through a threatened square. I invite you to double check my math, but that means that unless the barbarian takes a -10 on his acrobatics roll, he can't keep up with the monk when they are tumbling through threatened squares.
What do you mean he can't keep up with the monk? The monk takes the exact same penalty. Could you expand on what you mean? Because at the moment you point to a penalty they both take.
And that's even with your build which minimizes the Barbarian in his prime areas.
and I'd still take him over a monk... He takes a small hit to damage, but not to hit and he no longer takes a hit to AC while raging and he gets things to AC the monk doesn't get. He can also land full attacks consistently, come and get me, and dazing assault for all kinds of goodness!
And, as for the bard, since he needs gear in order to outshine a naked monk, it proves my point.
Umm... Where are you getting this from? How does he need gear to outshine a naked monk? Does that mean any character you place next to the monk has to be stripped of their armor, weapons, and any gimmicks? This was a character I built around doing a particular thing.
The monk has a far higher base movement. So, when he takes a half move for the tumbling through threatened squares, he's still moving much further than the barbarian.
Comes up situationally, base he has 40 land, possibly 60 flight. The monk has 70 land and 60 flight himself. If he needs to stretch himself and try to take the -10, then it comes up, but as a base I'd say he does a good job of having the same acrobatics check. If not better depending on where your dex lands and what monk your comparing too.
Though he falls behind in his core strengths and he still fails to match the monk in crossing through threatened squares.
He doesn't actually fail to match the monk though. He doesn't fall that far behind, and he still has the strength of great saves, pounce, Come and get me, and is tankier than most anything else your going to find. I could find a way to throw crane wing in there, but that's a little extreme.
Not any gimmicks, but gimmicks which depend on gear. After all, if he can't match a naked monk without gear, how is he going to match a properly equipped monk with gear?
How is he supposed to match the monk? Because the monk sucks of course! My main point that comparing a bard to a monk was a bit off because they play so different and do entirely different things in combat. How do you measure a bard's support? I wouldn't call mithral armor or an AoMF special equipment, unless your willing to compare to a monk without an AoMF of his own anyway. Its just being overly picky is all.
So... Splitting hairs.
How does the Barbarian get 60 flight?
He's level 12. Everyone starts to get flight around that time. That's why I put it down for the monk too. Its one of those things your sort of expected to have in the later parts of the game. Its from a friendly buff or an item one.
We're not comparing his saves. We're comparing his ability to get to the other side of the board (for example, to the enemy's wizard). And the Barbarian comes up short on that.
Because you split hairs. You said the barbarian fall short of his own strengths, and the barbarians saves are one of those strengths. As is pounce, CAGM, DR, and the other things I mentioned. He's is still going to do respectable damage.
I don't think he's that much if any during most situations though. 40 or 60 foot movement is quiet a bit. Which is why I said its situationally great to have all that extra movement, but in a lot of cases its just overkill.
I don't know. I'm not the one who said he could. He's going to come up short. I, also, never said the monk could match the bard in the bard's area of strength.
Well you said the monk could beat the bard in combat and I said it was hard to measure so you said to show you a bard who could beat a monk in combat, so I pointed to a combat bard who still played a good amount of support... Selective quote.
I don't know. I'm not the one who said he could. He's going to come up short. I, also, never said the monk could match the bard in the bard's area of strength.
You do realize that Monk is quite possibly the most gear-dependent class in the whole game, right?
Take away his (really expensive) AoMF and Bracers of Armor and see how well he fares.
Monks' greatest advantages are his saves and immunities, but the rest of his class features are mediocre at best, and one of them is a straight-out self-nerf.
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Because you split hairs. You said the barbarian fall short of his own strengths, and the barbarians saves are one of those strengths. As is pounce, CAGM, DR, and the other things I mentioned. He's is still going to do respectable damage.
Pounce and good saves are especially relevant if we're comparing the classes when it comes to getting to squishy casters. 80 feet of movement on a charge is going to be enough under most circumstances, and then you get a full attack compared to the monk only getting one strike. A monk could try to stun or grapple with their one attack to tie up the caster, but a charging barbarian making a full attack on the caster gets to cause the most useful status effect of all: dead.
Dead is good.
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Bracers of Armor have the same price as any armor enhancement.
Barbarians have ACP. Monks don't. Barbarians also lose movement in medium armor...
Another reason abstract < Build out.
I don't know the answer to the question, but it is generally better to test hypothesis rather than just looking for ways your assumptions are correct...
Bracers of Armor have the same price as any armor enhancement.
Barbarians have ACP. Monks don't. Barbarians also lose movement in medium armor...
Another reason abstract < Build out.
That's why the example I used had 0 ACP and light armor... in a breastplate. For both characters. At 12th the monk would need 16 wisdom to even out with the breastplate if he had equal dexterity.
Nothing to do with abstract or building things out. I thought out what I said and did with those characters. Urban Barbarian doesn't even get medium armor(though he does lose fast armor, bleh!)
edit: He does get a situational AC in return though. No idea how useful that is but... I guess he has it?
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That's why the example I used had 0 ACP and light armor... in a breastplate. For both characters. At 12th the monk would need 16 wisdom to even out with the breastplate if he had equal dexterity.Bracers of Armor have the same price as any armor enhancement.
Barbarians have ACP. Monks don't. Barbarians also lose movement in medium armor...
Another reason abstract < Build out.
And at 12th level what monk does not have 16 Wisdom? I generally have a 16 wisdom at 1st level, in the builds I have posted.
And a 12th level monk has a pretty good mobility choice...which given the ki requirement is another reason to have wisdom.
Barbarians are great, but they do not get armor training or weapon training, and while pounce is wonderful, it takes pretty much all of the rage powers to get there and can be stopped by difficult terrain or an object in most cases.
If you are only interested in proving what you believe to be true is true, then why participate in a discussion to test preconceptions?
Bracers of Armor have the same price as any armor enhancement.
Except it does't give you a bonus +4 to AC. And they take an item slot. Add that to the fact that they can't use Amulets of Natural Armors, since they need that slot for AoMF, and Monks start to lag in AC unless they are really devoted to it. And they just lost 2 item slots to get the equivalent of magical weapons and armor, which don't cost any slot to anyone else.
Barbarians have ACP. Monks don't. Barbarians also lose movement in medium armor...
Mithral medium armor is quite cheap, actually. If you have high Dex, it's cheap enough to be more effective than upgrading your armor from +2 to +3.
Besides, no one is doubting Monks' mobility or saves. Only stating that their mobility is not good enough to compensate for their shortcomings. Especially when Haste and/or Fly effects start to become more common.
Another reason abstract < Build out.
Builds are fun to create and can prove something can be done, but they are not nearly as necessary as you say. We don't need a build to know that Monks have better saves than Rogues or that Rangers have more skills than Fighters.
That's why the example I used had 0 ACP and light armor... in a breastplate. For both characters. At 12th the monk would need 16 wisdom to even out with the breastplate if he had equal dexterity.Bracers of Armor have the same price as any armor enhancement.
Barbarians have ACP. Monks don't. Barbarians also lose movement in medium armor...
Another reason abstract < Build out.
And at 12th level what monk does not have 16 Wisdom? I generally have a 16 wisdom at 1st level, in the builds I have posted.
And a 12th level monk has a pretty good mobility choice...which given the ki requirement is another reason to have wisdom.
Barbarians are great, but they do not get armor training or weapon training, and while pounce is wonderful, it takes pretty much all of the rage powers to get there and can be stopped by difficult terrain or an object in most cases.
If you are only interested in proving what you believe to be true is true, then why participate in a discussion to test preconceptions?
As with many of the things discussed in this thread, this guy could benefit from dragon style....
3 rage powers is all of them at 12?
Ciretose, your not even worth it.
How does the Barbarian get 60 flight?He's level 12. Everyone starts to get flight around that time. That's why I put it down for the monk too. Its one of those things your sort of expected to have in the later parts of the game. Its from a friendly buff or an item one.And how is your Barbarian going to deal with the threatened square he's already in?
You said the barbarian fall short of his own strengths, and the barbarians saves are one of those strengths. As is pounce, CAGM, DR, and the other things I mentioned. He's is still going to do respectable damage.The strength I was talking about is his ability to do damage.
I don't think he's that much if any during most situations though. 40 or 60 foot movement is quiet a bit. Which is why I said its situationally great to have all that extra movement, but in a lot of cases its just overkill.How's he getting a 40 move when his move is halved from tumbling?
You showed me a bard that was dependent on his gear and compared him to a monk without gear. Show me what a naked bard can do.
I don't know. I'm not the one who said he could. He's going to come up short. I, also, never said the monk could match the bard in the bard's area of strength.Well you said the monk could beat the bard in combat and I said it was hard to measure so you said to show you a bard who could beat a monk in combat, so I pointed to a combat bard who still played a good amount of support... Selective quote.
Ok I get the point of this argument is getting to the wizard effectively, quickly, and while minimizing damage taken. BUT! A barbarian usually isn't too concerned with avoiding hits, he can take it. Plus overrunning charges are nice for going straight THROUGH enemies.
Show me what a naked bard can do.
Show you a naked bard? Now that's just indecent.
Seriously though, if a mithral breastplate is too much gear, I'm just not interested. Its skimpy, but it sure beats naked.
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@Lemmy - Because you get the +4 bonus elsewhere, either from wisdom, barkskin, or monk bonus.
It is annoying that AoMF takes the same slot at amulet of natural armor, which is why most people swap slow fall for barkskin.
Mithral medium armor is +4000 Gold, which isn't really that cheap.
And monks also benefit from Haste and fly, although abundant step is better and they can burn a Ki for the effects of haste starting at 4th level...better actually, since it stacks with haste.
It's the sum of the parts, not the parts out of context.
Mithral medium armor is +4000 Gold, which isn't really that cheap.
Depends on your level. At level 1, its four times as much as you should have. At level 20, its 1/220 of what you should have. At level 12, its 1/27 of what you should have.
Barbarians are great, but they do not get armor training or weapon training, and while pounce is wonderful, it takes pretty much all of the rage powers to get there and can be stopped by difficult terrain or an object in most cases.
I agree with objects possibly blocking a Barbarians path to her target, but difficulty terrains is not much of any issue, actually... Feather Step Boots cost 2000gp and by 10th level, Fly spells/items are not exactly rare sights.
When we take into account that by 10th levels is not unusual to see Huge+ enemies, we realize that Pounce is not that situational. I'd say it's useful at least once per encounter. Possibly even more often.
3 of the 5 rage powers at 12th.
Feel free to not respond if it troubles you so...you'll be horribly missed.
Isn't it 6 Rage Powers?
3 of the 5 rage powers at 12th.
Its 3/6, half of them. 3/11 possible with extra rage power. 3/9 with the feats I named already. Using the ones leftover you can still nab superstitious and have 1 rage powers left to pick and 4 more feats.
Feel free to not respond if it troubles you so...you'll be horribly missed.
Because being condescending makes you a pleasant person to talk to? Cut back on the insults, eh.