| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I keep seeing everyone talk about how casters are gods and martial classes suck. I just don't see how. Are people playing games where concentration checks and spell interruption and AoO don't exist?
I'm sorry if this is just gonna be another "the game is unbalanced" thread. That's not my intent. I just don't see how people can come to that conclusion. There are so many things in the game that make a martial character render a spell caster nothing more then a bag of wet potatoes without even having to do much. Spell resistance being the biggest one.
Also, if the argument stems form the idea that in a 1v1 fight a sorcerer or wizard can beat a fighter every time, well then no duh! The game is designed around a rock<paper<sizzors concept which is exemplified in the three types of saves and how some classes have higher saves in one area and lower in others. The idea is that caster beats tank, tank beats healer, healer beats sneaky, sneaky beats caster.
No one class should ever be better then all the rest, and if you think full casters can, I want to know why because I just don't see how unless you are ignoring rules and giving them D12 for hit dice.
| 8 people marked this as a favorite. |
Casters aren't necessarily better in combat, so if that's all you look at, you'll miss the forest for the trees.
Imagine this scenario: the party is in room #432 of the Big Dungeon. They've pretty much gotten what they went in for, but there was still a level to "clear." They run into an encounter that's a bit too much for them to handle.
The disparity gets even more glaring when casters start using divination spells to their full potential.
Casters' class features (spells) can do more for themselves, and for the rest of the party, too, than anyone elses' can.
| 24 people marked this as a favorite. |
i feel like bill murray in Groundhog Day
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
OK, so wait....your telling me that people think casters are superior to materials because of their SUPPORT abilities? Are you F***king kidding me? Who the hell wants a martial character for the support it has? Wtf! If you want that, build a skill monkey rogue....
I don't think Kirth Gersen is kidding you in any carnal way.
Spell casters have much more utility. Healing everyone, teleporting in and out of places. Divination, BIG deal. High level damage out put spells.
Martials, well fight. All the above lets one character (spell caster) support and keep alive and provide important information to all the party plus duplicate many other classes' abilities to boot through the use of spells.
| 7 people marked this as a favorite. |
*Forrest Gump impression*
Adventuring is like a deck of many things; you never know what you're going to get.
Unless you're a spellcaster, then you've got divination.
Spellcasters aren't necessarily "better." Just more versatile. If you're an adventurer, it generally pays to be versatile.
I keep seeing everyone talk about how casters are gods and martial classes suck.
First of all, it isnt in reference to PVP. Mostly its in reference to how useful they are compared to martials in a campaign... on the same team. A Caster has both in and out of combat abilities that most melee can never match. CC, Buffing, Divination, Teleportation, De-Buffing, Summoning, ect. Thats on top of "I win" spells like Gate, Limited Wish, Wish, Miricle, ect.
Also, if the argument stems form the idea that in a 1v1 fight a sorcerer or wizard can beat a fighter every time, well then no duh!
Honestly very few on here care who can beat who 1v1. Most groups dont allow pvp and you never fight each other "1v1" so who cares. It stems from the fact that casters can make encounters trivial and at the same time dominate out of combat situations.
The game is designed around a rock<paper<sizzors concept which is exemplified in the three types of saves and how some classes have higher saves in one area and lower in others.
Yeah, exept it doesnt. Casters have different save or suck spells that effect ANY OF THE THREE saves they need. They dont care what you are good at. They target your weakness.
The idea is that caster beats tank, tank beats healer, healer beats sneaky, sneaky beats caster.
Exept in PF Caster beats tank/healer/sneaky and then does all three of their jobs better then they did.
Design Manager
|
A big part of it depends on the type of game you play, party composition, etc.
Martial characters can pretty much own single target damage right out of the gate and never give it up to casters. Casters typicaly just don't match the sheer numbers martials can put out against a single enemy (don't bring up the magus, he's a different conversation). Martials with certain builds can then gain a certain limited amount of battlefield control and even buffing.
Casters have utility that increases at an exponential rate. Eventually they don't care about direct damage because they've got save or die effects, or save or good-luck-getting-out-of-this-before-we-get-what-we-came-for-and-disappear- forever effects. They also have options for recovery that don't necessarily exist for an all martial party, like the afore-mentioned planeshift. I personally think that allowing the party to get what they came for without finishing the dungeon is a bit of a straw-man as far as the idea goes. I think, in my games at least, the reality is that the cleric runs away before the party gets what they came for, and the BBEG at the bottom level Dimension Locks his dungeon and doubles the traps back up on the earlier levels so the cleric's escape causes the party to start all over. Or the wizard steps out of his Magnificent Mansion to instantly die from the Symbol of Death carved into the wall across from the entrance. Or has his mansion dispelled while he's in the bath and finds himself in the middle of a group of vengeful monsters eager to avenge their slain friends by ripping this naked wizard a new one.
Ultimately, I think the classes are just suited to different situations far more than I think there exists an actual play imbalance. The ability to impact the game world on a large scale however, is much easier for casters who gain Wish, Miracle, and other large scale effects. Playstyle, encounter difficulty, and factors related to the campaign world like timeframes for quest completion all change the dynamic of who is more important to the party than who at a given time, or whose contributions to the party count for more.
I see the argument being valid from this point of view, but I mean, really? People complain because there fighter/barbarian/ranger can't bypass an encounter? Who players a fighter that DOESNT want to fight?
As far as your claim that a caster can end a fight in 1 round, please give examples. From what I am reading here, in combat the martial character has a clear advantage. Especially in games what are more dungeon crawl than rp. Because aside from not being able to heal themselves, a caster can't out DPR a martial until high levels and if they are going all offense in order to try, you still need to take into consideration spells per day running out. Spells are their ONLY sourse of high end DPR. And what happens to the caster once he's used up all his spells per day and needs to heal? He's SOL just like the fighter. At lower levels this is even more of an issue. In my experience, a caster has to rest far more often than a martial does.
As for not being able to heal themselves, and experienced player knows that a want of cure x wounds and ranks in UMD are a must.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Basically what is happening Shimesen is in effect a lot of the (honestly useless) theory-crafting that goes on here and on other message boards. It is mostly the same group usually that stubbornly refuses to believe a cavalier can ever get off their mount or that monks actually are a playable character class.
No one particular class is better or worse then another class in actual play, some may prove to be more useful in particular situations but that doesn't make them better or worse given that what really matters is first and for most that everyone at the table is having a good time.
Even if we set that aside the player behind the character is what decides if that character is or is not useful or "better" at anything else. The game isn't designed in such a way for that to really be the case and no situation in a decently run game should absolutely need the application of a particular spell to be resolved. That's something most GM's know.
| 6 people marked this as a favorite. |
Lets see.... Casters don't die when they are killed.
Casters can make, summon, call their own fighters.
Casters can make it to the other side of the planet in a standard action.
Casters can leave the plane of existence.
Casters can divine out answers to otherwise unanswerable questions.
Casters can bypass virtually all obstacles unless a DM has specifically prepared against these options.
Casters can reduce encounters to "clean up the crippled and disabled enemies".
Casters can deal very high amounts of damage, despite this being much weaker than all the above options.
I'm curious.... why do you think they aren't better?
(By the way if you don't understand how the caster is achieving the above the problem may be that you lack system mastery. I recommend reading the spell section of the Core Rulebook and coming back to this discussion if that is the case.)
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
My 15th level Zen Archer was "one-shotted" by an 18th level cleric when she cast Destruction for 180 points of damage. Her Fickle Winds spell had already ensured that his archery would be useless against her.
"And that's all I have to say about that."
- Forrest Gump
|
Design Manager
|
And do check out the damage potential of a high level blaster that's actually spec'd and optimized as such. It's actually pretty crazy.
But still nothing compared to a well built Zen Archer, charging Cavalier, Smiting Paladin, Raging Pouncing Barbarian, etc. for single target (or even 1-5 separate targets) damage.
It's the utility and options that make the difference for casters. The biggest disparity is not actually in combat, it's in the ability to avoid or circumvent combat, and the ability to influence the game world between combat.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I think the discrepancy comes from the fact that alot of 'normal' games probabl don't see things in a way that are a problem.
See it looks distorted more then it is when people post threads about how much martial characters 'suck ass' or similar re-wording.
the fact really is when i am playing a fighter i dont really care that my character cant take us to elysium. I just care that we are going there. Or that the wizard removed the six mooks even.
I think the issue comes up when you have players push the envelope of the games power struture and/or players playing above the skill level of their friends.
For my group for example the sorcerer is a blaster character and as a group we appear to just outright suck at coming up with the right questions for diviniation etc.
the end result mostly is the 'mysteries' of the game dont get broken by spells and the sorcerer is probably playing well below what the class can do because he wants to lob fireballs.
Ultimately, there is nothing wrong with that.
|
|
Martial characters have one major advantage over casters: staying power. The caster has a finite number of spells available to cast. If the martial character can outlast the caster's supply of magic, then the caster is suddenly far inferior to the martial character. This is why any caster worth his salt has a wide variety of wands, staves and scrolls at his disposal.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
ugh
I see the argument being valid from this point of view, but I mean, really? People complain because there fighter/barbarian/ranger can't bypass an encounter? Who players a fighter that DOESNT want to fight?
As far as your claim that a caster can end a fight in 1 round, please give examples. From what I am reading here, in combat the martial character has a clear advantage. Especially in games what are more dungeon crawl than rp. Because aside from not being able to heal themselves, a caster can't out DPR a martial until high levels and if they are going all offense in order to try, you still need to take into consideration spells per day running out. Spells are their ONLY sourse of high end DPR. And what happens to the caster once he's used up all his spells per day and needs to heal? He's SOL just like the fighter. At lower levels this is even more of an issue. In my experience, a caster has to rest far more often than a martial does.
As for not being able to heal themselves, and experienced player knows that a want of cure x wounds and ranks in UMD are a must.
Hit points arent how casters end encounters. Save or lose spells and control spells are. Here is an example from my last game session. The party was hunting some boars in the woods. The boars came out of the bushes and were noticed by the party, roll intiative. The teleportation wizard won initiative and went first. He did that 1st level teleport ability thing to get into position, and then cast color spray hiting both boars. They failed their save. They were then blinded stunned and unconcious. Encounter over. The barbarian might have charaged and critted the boar, but that would have only killed one, and required a crit, not just a successful hit.
And yes, spells per day is an issue, but you have to remember that almost every class now has per day resources. Everyone but the fighter and rogue run out of juice as the day progresses and want to rest and recover.
Its all about options. A martial character can when faced with a problem can attempt to stab it with a sharp bit of metal. The caster can ALSO try to stab it with a sharp bit of metal (there are several casters with significant martial abilities as well), teleport past it, go invisible and walk past it, paralyze it so the rogue can slit its throat, make the obstacle its friend, usurp the will of the obstacle entirely, fly over it, summon an extra dimensional being to fight for them, summon tentacles from the earth to do inappropriate things to the enemies hind quarters, transform into a big stompy beasty and kill the obstacle, use magic to divine a path around the obstacle so as to by pass it while still obtaining their goal. The list goes on for quite a while while the fighter and rogue are still standing there with their swords and skill points.
And do check out the damage potential of a high level blaster that's actually spec'd and optimized as such. It's actually pretty crazy.But still nothing compared to a well built Zen Archer, charging Cavalier, Smiting Paladin, Raging Pouncing Barbarian, etc. for single target (or even 1-5 separate targets) damage.
It's the utility and options that make the difference for casters. The biggest disparity is not actually in combat, it's in the ability to avoid or circumvent combat, and the ability to influence the game world between combat.
I am very certain that unless we're talking single (or maybe two) target, Caster is almost guaranteed to win. To quote Brewer's Guide:
Or she could go raw damage. She can toss out two Intensified Empowered Maximized Fireballs (one Quickened) for 247 average damage. Or if she doesn't want to go nova? Just don't use the rod.
Now if there's 3 or more people in that blast... well I'm sure there's probably some non-caster that can deal 741-1235 damage per round. (3-5 targets).
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Hypothesis: involvement in martial vs caster thread will make me sad. Beginning experiment...
Martials are fine, so are casters. There's no caster class that has the holy trinity of 9th level magic, access to any spell, and is a spontaneous caster. Wizards and witches have their drawbacks. Sorcerers and oracles have their drawbacks. Bards, alchemists, maguses (magi?), and especially paladins & rangers have their drawbacks. Things like SR, concentration checks, saving throws, spells rebalanced from 3.5, and other universal elements make sure that no caster is going to be 'god-mode' against a proper level threat. If a player has a caster character that is somehow achieving god-mode, it's because of one of three things. Either, A) the base rules have been modified/broken, B) the GM isn't mixing it up enough against said caster, or C) (most likely) the caster is supporting and supported by a strong party.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
And do check out the damage potential of a high level blaster that's actually spec'd and optimized as such. It's actually pretty crazy.But still nothing compared to a well built Zen Archer, charging Cavalier, Smiting Paladin, Raging Pouncing Barbarian, etc. for single target (or even 1-5 separate targets) damage.
It's the utility and options that make the difference for casters. The biggest disparity is not actually in combat, it's in the ability to avoid or circumvent combat, and the ability to influence the game world between combat.
I am very certain that unless we're talking single (or maybe two) target, Caster is almost guaranteed to win. To quote Brewer's Guide:
Or she could go raw damage. She can toss out two Intensified Empowered Maximized Fireballs (one Quickened) for 247 average damage. Or if she doesn't want to go nova? Just don't use the rod.
Now if there's 3 or more people in that blast... well I'm sure there's probably some non-caster that can deal 741-1235 damage per round. (3-5 targets).
I think your math is a bit off. Metamatgic feats, like Maximize, only affect the base spell. So, intensified (+5d6) empowered (+5d6 again) and maximized(initial 10d6 maxed to 60) equals 10d6+60 points of fire damage, or 95 on average. Considering this takes up a 9th level slot, doesn't increase the save DC, doesn't get around resistances/immunities/SR any better than normal, doesn't increase the range or area of effect, and doesn't let spontaneous casters off the full-round action for meta-magic hook, why is this a problem?
There's no caster class that has the holy trinity of 9th level magic, access to any spell, and is a spontaneous caster.
Half-Elf Oracle with Eldritch Heritage: Arcane. Paragon Surge can be used to get cleric spell through Expanded Arcana or Improved Eldritch Heritage to get any wizard spell. I'd say that's pretty damn close.
Anyway, my biggest problem with the caster/martial divide is not that the caster can circumvent encounters or have massive utility or whatever else.
My biggest problem is that the caster can out martial the martial if they want to--and they've nerfed themselves to do it.
Show me a melee build without spells and I will show you a melee build that is better because of spells. It makes me sad that it's true :(
Hypothesis: involvement in martial vs caster thread will make me sad. Beginning experiment...
Martials are fine, so are casters. There's no caster class that has the holy trinity of 9th level magic, access to any spell, and is a spontaneous caster. Wizards and witches have their drawbacks. Sorcerers and oracles have their drawbacks. Bards, alchemists, maguses (magi?), and especially paladins & rangers have their drawbacks. Things like SR, concentration checks, saving throws, spells rebalanced from 3.5, and other universal elements make sure that no caster is going to be 'god-mode' against a proper level threat. If a player has a caster character that is somehow achieving god-mode, it's because of one of three things. Either, A) the base rules have been modified/broken, B) the GM isn't mixing it up enough against said caster, or C) (most likely) the caster is supporting and supported by a strong party.
So... I take you don't know about Half-elf Oracles with Eldritch Heritage Arcane and access to Paragon Surge? Which does have, 9th level magic, access to any spell (well any that are on the Wizard/Sorcerer & Cleric/Oracle list anyway), and is a spontaneous caster. SR is a non-issue as a skilled caster will be at CL + 10 with minor effort. Concentration check start as an issue (but can be mitigated with traits/magic items), spell DCs will quickly outpace almost all saving throws (and with Dazing or Persistent Spell your looking at a lot of chances to fail), only a select few spells were rebalanced while most of the big issues remain unchecked.
Neither A, B, nor C will apply. In fact if you don't modify the base rules casters are overwhelming powerful should they decide to use all the abilities at their disposal.
I think your math is a bit off. Metamatgic feats, like Maximize, only affect the base spell. So, intensified (+5d6) empowered (+5d6 again) and maximized(initial 10d6 maxed to 60) equals 10d6+60 points of fire damage, or 95 on average.
Wrong. Intensified raises the damage of the spell to 15d6. Maximize makes that 90, then Empowered adds 50% of what you rolled on 15d6 (average 52.5) for an average of 142.5 damage.
And since the person doing this almost certainly is using a rod of Maximize, it's only a 6th level spell tops, and possibly lower if they have Spell Perfection or Magical Lineage (i.e. if they care about blasting at all).
Yesterday in a scenario we were fighting a spell caster that us martials couldn't touch. Overland flight, wind wall, fire wall, etc... He summoned things for us to fight, we couldn't do anything to him... but, he wasn't really hurting us, we could deal with the summons, and eventually he ran out of ability to deal us damage. His magic defenses were still up so...
I said "We wait 10 minutes". This is the difference between casters and martial types.
A level 18 cleric shouldn't be able to land a destruction on a zen archer.
If you feel your martial has to charge and attack, you shouldn't be surprised that someone who is forcing you to fight on THEIR terms is winning.
Another important note is that most of the time you're on some sort of timeline. Yes, the caster could go retreat, but then the bad guy gets away. Yes the caster you're fighting may be able to retreat, but how many times have you seen someone run away while pressing the advantage?
Obviously I'm not fully privy to the details of that session, so I won't offer a general statement about it. I do have some questions, though. First, why isn't Destruction okay as a cleric spell? I don't get that. Second, it sounds like this was a high-level module or party or what-ever, wasn't there anyone there that could selectively dispel any of the enemy casters buff spells? Lastly, doesn't Wind Wall have a short duration? 10 minutes seems really long for your martial characters to have to wait to break out the bows to nail the evil clerics nasty butt to the wall.
See... here's where those PF spell nerfs work out in favor of casters. Unless you use Mage's Disjunction, Dispeling an enemy's buffs is largely a wasted action. (Similarly casters couldn't be happier about Mind Blank no longer granting immunity to mind-affecting, cause hey guess who has two thumbs, a good will save and casts mind-affecting stuff?)
Wind Wall does have a short duration, but I suspect the Cleric was using the vastly superior Fickle Winds which has a 1/min per caster level duration. (Because spells are powerful and can shut-down whole strategies.)
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
It seems one thing people keep forgetting, is that the game is designed, for, for arguement's sake, 4 specialists to work together. Each brings something to the table.
In the beginning of an adventuring team's carrier, the fighter does allot to protect the rest of the party. The rogue helps with backstabbing (Sneak Attacks), traps, scouting, and other social skills, The cleric helps bolster the party, heal the fighter, and back him up as well, the Wizard, uses his magic to "even the odds' for the party with sleep spells, color spray, greese, burning hands etc.
And later in their carriers, its the Wizard and the Cleric's turn to help protect the party with their magic. But the fighter and rogue are still necessary to give them space to cast spells.
So everyone has a place.
Just my two cents.
|
|
Theconiel - staying power is a definite perk, but it doesn't come up too often (smart casters tend to have a "go somewhere safe to rest and regain spells" spell). On the other hand, the fact that there's no saving throw against a foot of steel through the gizzard comes up quite regularly. There's AC and DR, sure, but they're not quite the same obstacles as the maze of line-of-effect, range, specific immunities, saving throws and SR that stand in the way of Absolute Wizard Perfection Forever.
Aw, geez, I'm getting sucked into the thread! Where's that pole I was referring to earlier?
True. I have had both come up in favor of the martial characters.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Martial characters have one major advantage over casters: staying power.
Well, until they run out of hp and healing. Which, at median levels, happens a lot faster than the wizard runs out of spells.
It seems one thing people keep forgetting, is that the game is designed, for, for arguement's sake, 4 specialists to work together. Each brings something to the table.
In the beginning of an adventuring team's carrier, the fighter does allot to protect the rest of the party. The rogue helps with backstabbing (Sneak Attacks), traps, scouting, and other social skills, The cleric helps bolster the party, heal the fighter, and back him up as well, the Wizard, uses his magic to "even the odds' for the party with sleep spells, color spray, greese, burning hands etc.
And later in their carriers, its the Wizard and the Cleric's turn to help protect the party with their magic. But the fighter and rogue are still necessary to give them space to cast spells.
So everyone has a place.
Just my two cents.
Fighter has virtually no ability to act as a tank and thus "protect" other party members. Rogues deal very low amount of damage and PF has reduced the number of ways to trigger sneak attack. Summoned minions can scout and serve as trap detectors with Charm person or a CHA caster covering social skills. The Cleric has much better things to do than Heal the fighter (seriously buy a wand and let him do it out of combat).
You would be much better off in your example replacing the Fighter and Rogue with a Summoner and a Inquisitor.
| 7 people marked this as a favorite. |
Just so I don't have to link elsewhere, because these are already flying around thick. Now I can just reference numbers; I just responded to #6.
Ten myths I'd like not to see bandied about anymore -- I'm posting a list so I can just link to it and say, "We're moved past that, please do keep up."
1. Myth: Balancing classes leads to 4e!
Response: No, it doesn't. See Kirthfinder, or Frank and K's Tomes.2. Myth: Martials are supposed to be worse than casters -- it's more realistic!
Response: No, not as long as a 10th level fighter PC and 10th level wizard PC are both CR 10. You're completely missing what a "character level" is.3. Myth: You just want fighters to teleport and throw fireballs!
Answer: No one wants that. Try actually reading some of the suggestions people post sometime.4. Myth: It's a team game, so it's OK if your class is weaker!
Answer: No one wants to play Scrappy Doo when the rest of the party is the Avengers -- at least, not in a half-serious game.5. "I never have this problem because the DM fixes it!
Answer: Then you're playing storytime hour, not Pathfinder. If we fixed the problems, you could still play storytime hour, and we would BOTH win.6. Myth: Martials can do it all day long!
Answer: Not if they run out of hp.7. Myth: My fighter is fine in combat!
Answer: And if all there is to your game is lining up and blindly walking into staged combats, then the fighter is fine in your game, but he isn't in most other peoples' games. And it's not because of his attack bonus.8. Myth: Anyone who thinks martials aren't fine is a Shroedinger Theorycrafter who never actually plays.
Answer: No, many of us saw just how badly they lag by actually playing with people who weren't afraid to stop pulling their casters' punches. I never saw the disparity on paper until I saw it in play.9. Myth: Martials are awesome because you can fix all their problems by spending more feats and money.
Answer: Even they don't get nearly enough feats for that, and they still get near-nothing for skills, and unless they get a bajillion gold as a class feature to spend on whatever they want, they can't possibly buy enough stuff to do their job and still shore up their glaring weaknesses.10. Myth: It's only a few vocal people who hate martials who are trying to ruin it for the rest of us!
Answer: Some of us LOVE martial/skill classes and would like to be able to play them and still be something other than a caddy after 6th level.
|
|
I think you missed my entire point, don't fight on their terms.
Destruction is a just fine cleric spell. Allowing yourself to be cast on by a cleric you can't attack is just silly for a zen archer, was my point. You've got a higher speed, knew you couldn't attack due to wind wall, and Destruction is a close range spell. Again, don't fight on their terms.
Dispelling casters who are higher level than you is very difficult, and is often what you'll be trying to do in PFS scenarios. We didn't have the ability to do so in any case.
My point was if you can't surmount the defenses, there is no reason to lose a war of attrition. Change the circumstances of the fight.
Out of character, it takes nothing to say "I wait 10 minutes for his magical defenses to go down", once you've neutralized his offensive capabilities.
We were in her lair. My speed was irrelevant, especially since she had the ability to teleport, seemingly at will. She had been scrying the party for a long time and knew our party composition and typical tactics.