RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
I'm in a pretty cool position in PFS right now: I got a boon at a local con that will let me start a kitsune PC, and someone else gifted an identical boon to my wife so that we can play kitsune PCs together.
She's decided to make her kitsune a rapier-wielding magus and is doing fine in deciding what/how she wants to play.
I, on the other hand, am a complete mess. It's pretty normal for me to have multiple character ideas in my head and have trouble being decisive, but with this one shot at a kitsune and also designating it as something to play exclusively with my wife, I feel like I *really* need to make sure I pick something I can be happy with and keep moving forward. I have a couple of PCs I've abandoned, but it would totally suck to have my one and only kitsune be one of them!
So far, I've considered:
Sorcerer
Bard (casting-focused)
Bard (archaeologist archetype, melee- and skill-oriented)
Magus
Monk
Summoner
Arcane Trickster
Ninja
Musket Master
Oracle
What do I dooooo?
On the one hand, I want a PC who in some way includes a nod to kitsune's mystical nature, so I feel like I want to play either a spellcaster or at least a class that has some (Sp) or (Su) abilities.
On the other hand, when I imagine a kitsune, I want to picture him being nimble and moving around; there needs to be some physicality to the concept, which is kind of a strike against things like Sorcerer or Summoner.
On the other other hand, a martial-caster hybrid is kind of a staple for me already; I have an Eldritch Knight at 10th level and a melee cleric at 7th. Am I going to get bored doing the same thing again?
On the other other other hand, it's clear I enjoy well-rounded martial-caster hybrids; should I stick to what I know I like?
Furthermore, I want to play a character for whom it's cool to be a kitsune; I don't want to take a PC who "should" be a different race and shoehorn it into a kitsune. But I also don't like playing super-obvious builds, like a crossblooded Fey/Infernal enchanter with impossibly high save DCs.
And then of course there's the fact (having been playing for just under 2 years) that there are entire classes I've never played (witch, sorcerer, bard, monk, paladin, oracle, ninja, druid, magus, gunslinger... more?) and basic concepts I haven't experienced (primary caster, melee DPR, ranged DPR, skill monkey...) and I'm always curious to see what the baseline standards are like.
Help me! Whether that help is in the form of "How have you not thought of this perfect concept/class yet?" or "How have you not eliminated this obviously unsatisfactory option yet?" or even "Here's what you need to ask yourself".
I need outside input so I can process things! Keeping it all spinning in my head is paralyzing me with indecision! Help!
Oracle, Wind or Waves mystery. Oracles with those mysteries can choose a mystery ability that give them an armor bonus that starts at +4 and increases slowly with level and get acrobatics as a class skill. Uses charisma for casting, isn't weighed down by heavy armor. Loads of flavor, and the nature theme and mysteriousness fits kitsune perfectly.
Unfortunately Kitsune don't lend themselves to hitting things very well without Agile/Dervish Dance being involved, thankfully its an option for just about any choice you make. -2 str, +2 dex really pushes for that sort of thing. I could see a Kitsune oracle hopping around the field slashing things and dropping debuffs/buffs really well. Especially since some curses don't harm them physically at all.(legalistic/tongues dual cursed with misfortune. Lots of fun imo.)
I like dervish bard for kitsune the best myself, but I love a talkative skillmonkey.
It doesn't hurt very much to try out casting. You get a new class feature and option at every level.
|
I have 2 Kitsune Ninja in my local group - so they're cliche for me, but maybe not for you...and it incorporates all the mobility and mysticism you're talking about. If you do do that, at the very least consider the Kitsune Trickster Rogue/Ninja racial Archetype.
Another contender you didn't specifically mention: A dual-class spellcaster/Mysterious Stranger Gunslinger. Mysterious Strangers are the ones who use Charisma instead of Wisdom for Grit, get to add potentially mondo damage bonuses to their guns right from the start...and lose the Quick Clear deed, which can put them in deep doo-dah. HOWEVER, as long as your spellcasting class has the mending cantrip/orison, you're in shape. Most spellcasters get the spell potentially, so you COULD be a Cleric, Wizard, or Witch, but since you're already a Kitsune Mysterious Stranger, why not pick a Charisma-based one? Sorcerer's got a lot to offer, naturally, Bard would give you more skill points (and maybe then you could do Archeologist, since you were interested) and let you wear light armor, Oracle has all kinds of nuttiness to offer and lets you potentially wear as much armor as you damned well please (though it sounds like you'll be sticking with light at most)...and even Summoner's a possibility. In addition to mending, they offer Cleric BAB and hit points, and like Wizards and Bards, get all Knowledge skills as class skills. The issue there will be that your Eidolon will be much weaker than others of its kind since you're dual-classing, but you can adapt to that fact in many ways, and if it gets sent back where it came from, you can just spit out another monster with your summon monster spell-like ability. You'd be a little like a bizarro-universe arcane Ranger, and I almost can't believe I've never thought of the whole Mysterious Stranger/spellcaster hybrid idea before. One downside: Mysterious Strangers cannot be Musket Masters too. One bizarre upside: I've heard something about how exploiting a textual error COULD permit you to be a Mysterious Stranger AND Pistolier, which is likewise TERRIFYING, and somehow there's yet to be any errata stopping it. Something to look into, at least, if you feel like it....
I figure you want something that complements your wife's Magus well, and any of these options would.
So are you going with a sibling team? If so, I'd suggest something that helps support your sibling, like bard. It gives you the physical capability combined with the spellcasting you want.
My choice:
Bard (sandman):
Str 10 (12-2), Dex 18 (16+2), con 12, int 10, wis 7, cha 18 (16+2)
Feat: Weapon finesse
You gain rogue-like skills and abilities, and you also get to pick up stealspell, which fits with the sneaky clever motif of the kitsune. While you have a lousy wisdom (which again, matches the stories of the impulsive trickster who keeps getting into troule), you at least have a good will save to help counteract the penalty.
This is also a good time to pick up teamwork feats wth your partner, such as precise strike and outflank.
Jiggy have you considered the Chellish Diva?
I think it could work really well. If you focus on charisma you can get a pretty solid save on your shut down ability with very minimal feat investment. You will also have the spells to provide a lot of support to the rest of your part. In addition to that you will gain access to armor proficiencies on par with martial classes. As a bonus you could also get your bluff up to mind numbing levels.
Hmm maybe I should consider doing this for my Kitsune.
I like the idea of a kitsune rogue (or ninja), also wielding a rapier to complement your wife's rapier-wielding magus. You could get all the feats you want through rogue tricks (to pick up Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus, and... that's all you need, really), which lets you spend all your feats on Magical Tail. She could focus on damage spells, while you handle the traps and the trickery, plus sneak attack.
How about Sorcerer (Draconic) then become a Dragon Disciple?
|
Bard sounds like a really good fit. Bards get a unique set of spells, and a pile of skills. If your DM gives a lot of opportunity to the party face, you can really play up the kitsune flavor.
If you are going to always play together, you might consider some of the teamwork feats. A pair of Keen rapier wielders with Outflank would be generating a good amount of crits and AoOs with a +4 bonus.
Another Magus with a love for bladed dash, a summoner with a foxxy pounce companion, Oracle with a mobility related revalation, lots of options to remain nimble. And if you have dervish dance or if your not attacking it makes up for the loss in strength. I want to say paladin archer, but thats pretty feat heavy. Are Magus, oracle, or bards particularly feat heavy? I don't have much experience with them.
Oddly enough I suggest against rogue if you want to be nimble and mobile in combat. Full attacking while flanking is their thing, thats really hard to do though. They are feat heavy too, and their rogue talents don't make up for it I don't think. Two weapon fighting is at least 3 feats in society play. There are options that use pounce or are able to move as a swift or immidiate.
|
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
Additional information, for whatever difference it might make:
Wife says she wants her magus to be melee-focused more than spell-focused, with her spell choices focused on (A) buff spells, (B) spells that deal cold damage, and (C) spells which do things she couldn't already do by mundane means (i.e., light is merely a more convenient torch, so it's out).
Thinking about that, part of me is thinking maybe a magus who mirrors her but uses fire spells instead of cold spells? Or perhaps mirrors her but is a tad more spell-focused than melee-focused (sort of "the other side of the same coin")? Or perhaps a melee bard who would almost by definition be like a more magic-oriented version of the magus?
I think those are probably my top contenders at the moment.
Oh, and a couple of those teamwork feats look fun, especially Outflank and Precise Strike, in which case I could probably be okay with skipping Magical Tail.
Hmm....
Dude, mix it up a little. You've already played an Eldritch Knight, and your current pet character is a melee cleric. You don't need another caster/martial hybrid.
|
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
Dude, mix it up a little. You've already played an Eldritch Knight, and your current pet character is a melee cleric. You don't need another caster/martial hybrid.
Yeah, I know...
But on the other hand, now that it's "official" that changing between a one- and two-handed grip on your weapon is a free action, my Crane Style guy can become my martial DPR guy (picking up Power Attack next time he gets a feat), and I have another slot I can devote to a "pure" caster.
Been pondering the kitsune some more, and I feel like the more important thing here is making a character that feels like I'm playing with my wife, rather than a character that I would have made anyway and I just happen to only play it when she's at the table.
So I think I'll do either the magus or the bard, keeping a strong connection between our PCs, and save all those other ideas for the 75% of games where I'm not specifically coordinating with anyone.
A friend of mine played a kitsune synthesist during a a short lived carrion crown campaign. Every time he gained evolution he gained another tail. Maybe this is something you could explore with your getting tails as you get more powerful.
Kitsune are the best enchantment casters ever. Favored class bonus to enchantment DC, racial bonus to enchant DC... Go Fey Bloodline and Spell Focus and hit the enemy with the highest DCs possible.
|
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
But I also don't like playing super-obvious builds, like a crossblooded Fey/Infernal enchanter with impossibly high save DCs.
Kitsune are the best enchantment casters ever.
...
Go Fey Bloodline and Spell Focus and hit the enemy with the highest DCs possible.
I appreciate that you wanted to offer advice, but would appreciate it more if you would read the OP (bonus points if you read the discussion thereafter) and offer relevant advice. Making suggestions that were already ruled out in the original post isn't helpful and just clutters up the thread and makes it harder to sort through and find advice I can use.
Thanks. :)
|
|
(If this isn't already obvious...) I'd recommend something that compliments your wife's character, but doesn't step on her shtick. Which is, of course, highly subjective. You might want to see if she has any suggestions. Anything that you could play that would enhance her enjoyment as well.
(I was going to say more, but it all has already been said. 8^)
If you're always only going to play with her Kitsune, wouldn't it make sense to pick another class that did something different? That way you'd know that you had two roles covered in the party, instead of always doubling up on melee caster.
I can see wanting to be the "other half" of the coin Jiggy, but at the same time it seems you do need to break out of the caster/melee combo mold and try something different. If you want to work together better I'd suggest both of you taking some teamwork feats as well as feats like Butterfly Sting.
Furthermore, you can go with something like a fighter with the swordlord archetype or the dervish dancer bard.
|
|
Or you could throw a total curveball and become a Cavalier or Samurai, maybe even one who emphasizes archery. They're certainly mobile, and the Tactician ability gives you the opportunity to do all sorts of teamwork feat shenanigans (granted, if you're always with the same person/people, some of the shine comes off). They also can do plenty with a high Charisma. Finally, if you still want a little magic in it, do what I did and join the Order of the Tome, which at least lets you use scrolls at 8th level. In addition, you'll be getting a lot of interaction and intrigue skills Magi don't mess around with much.
|
|
I can see wanting to be the "other half" of the coin Jiggy, but at the same time it seems you do need to break out of the caster/melee combo mold and try something different. If you want to work together better I'd suggest both of you taking some teamwork feats as well as feats like Butterfly Sting.
Note that Butterfly Sting requires significant investment feat-wise, requiring the damnable Combat Expertise. For a feat-starved class, it is not quite compelling.
I do like the concept, though, and I (rogue) am actually already using this with my girlfriend (fighter) in a classic Greyhawk module one of our buds is adapting to Pathfinder.
Our plan is really feat-heavy, and we couldn't really do it with other classes.
Thanks to Vrischika111 for the concept we're borrowing heavily from.
I can see wanting to be the "other half" of the coin Jiggy, but at the same time it seems you do need to break out of the caster/melee combo mold and try something different. If you want to work together better I'd suggest both of you taking some teamwork feats as well as feats like Butterfly Sting.Note that Butterfly Sting requires significant investment feat-wise, requiring the damnable Combat Expertise. For a feat-starved class, it is not quite compelling.
I do like the concept, though, and I (rogue) am actually already using this with my girlfriend (fighter) in a classic Greyhawk module one of our buds is adapting to Pathfinder.
Our plan is really feat-heavy, and we couldn't really do it with other classes.
Thanks to Vrischika111 for the concept we're borrowing heavily from.
Not sure what you mean by Butterfly Sting being "significant" feat investment. It takes 1 feat (combat expertise) and an intelligence of 13 to qualify for it. That's 1 ability score stat and 1 feat. Now I see if you are expounding it with adding in all the critical feats such as improved critical, critical focus, etc then it would indeed be a big investment. Otherwise I'd have to completely disagree with the assessment.
Pathfinder doesn't really do it well, but to me Kitsune just screams rogue/witch.
You HAVE to be the sneaky, skills, backstabby type.
But throwing hex on anyone that irritates or disrespects you seems very Kitsune also.
So even though it is by no means optimal, I would suggest rogue(ninja) 3 / witch 8. I know the caster stats don't match the race abilities, but that is what seems like it 'should' be.
A rog/sor/arcane trickster would match the stats better though.
I've seen a Kistune rogue actually. A supposedly good one who stole my stuff in pfs. Being a fox, and having three nat attacks were great for stealth and sneak attack. The build wasn't optimized at all though.
In a homegame I'd happily change one if its bonuses to see a kitsune witch. That just sounds fun and flavorful.
What about a ray sorcerer that fancies himself a spell sharpshooter
You'll get a little bit of martial in your spellcaster without actually making them a martial class. You could take the elemental bloodline to do an electricity theme with your wife's Shocking Grasp attacks.
You'd also get a chance to abuse that broken Snowball spell and possibly persuade Paizo to nerf it in an errata.
|
Jiggy, I kind of like the idea of going with a Monk... perhaps a Quinggong Monk... you'll have plenty of feats, or ki powers that mimic feats. Perhaps even replacing Kitsune magic with Fast Shifter?
Focus on the mystic, without being directly casting spells. You'll also be a melee combatant, and can complement your wife's magus... and with the enhanced acrobatics, you'll be able to more easily get into flanks with her.
I'd probably go high DEX, decent CHA, CON, WIS... early ki replacement powers may be: Acrobatic Steps (4), Deny Death (5), Heroic Recovery (7).
Use your monk bonus feats to get your early needs taken care of (well, you may need to burn your 1st level feat for Weapon Finesse, since you won't have STR to improve your to-hit)... you'll have your feats for 3,5,7,9,11 for extra tails. Your 1st & 2nd level monk feats could be Dodge and Combat Reflexes?
Monks seem sort of counter-intuitive, being lawful and all, but I am sure you can come up with a way of describing that that still remains in the kitsune norm. ;)
I kind of like the idea here, myself...
A monk without feats sounds painful to me, and its got no class skills that use charisma, which means no synergy with the tails or use for the +2 the kitsune gets.
|
|
Not sure what you mean by Butterfly Sting being "significant" feat investment. It takes 1 feat (combat expertise) and an intelligence of 13 to qualify for it. That's 1 ability score stat and 1 feat. Now I see if you are expounding it with adding in all the critical feats such as improved critical, critical focus, etc then it would indeed be a big investment. Otherwise I'd have to completely disagree with the assessment.
I consider Combat Expertise a wasted feat, which effectively makes Butterfly's Sting cost two feats, which is a significant investment considering the rate at which some classes gain feats, and the opportunity cost for selecting it. For the cost of Combat Expertise and Butterfly's Sting, you could get Outflank and Paired Opportunists.
Or take Tandem Trip if your buddy's got a trip build.
When selecting feats for teamwork, feats are at a premium, and any wasted "prerequisite" feats need to be carefully considered. That is not to say they might not be worth it, but that they are important to consider (i.e. significant).
At the very least, the prerequisite will affect the level at which the feat becomes viable.
|
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
Well, I feel like I'm narrowing it down... Right now I'm looking at:
Ninja
Arcane Duelist
Magus
Some of it will depend on whether or not my wife is interested in going the Teamwork Feats route. The main draw of the Ninja is that I won't necessarily need feats (I can pick up Finesse as a trick/talent) so I could do the Magical Tail thing. But if we do Teamwork Feats, Magical Tail goes out the window and the ninja goes to the bottom of the list.
Arcane Duelist lets me (sort of) parallel my my wife's concept, while giving me a more... "kitsune-appropriate" spell list and casting stat.
Magus lets me more closely mirror my wife's character, and I've been curious to try playing one.
Magus are really fun -- my favorite class. There's lots of ways to make one, but you'll be pretty much limited to Dexterity Magus builds, like the standard Dervish Dance. If you want a bit of flair, you could go something more exotic like a whip magus (using kensai archetype) or a kapenia dancer.
Mechnically/optimally, arcane duelist is probably the best choice.
Dipping into rogue isn't a great idea. Lose spellcasting to get a very situational +d6, some skillpoints, and... the ability to say your part rogue? I guess? Or you could continue to be an int based caster and stay a magus. They aren't less sneaky, especially not with invisibility available to them.
I would suggest the Bard if you really really want to play up the charisma and spell like abilities, but I think the magus is more optimal. Kitsune magical tails are best in a homegame where you can change the way the feat works unfortunately. Rogues/Ninjas without feats is a bad idea.
Jiggy, check out the Player's Guide, and look under the classes. You'll find the Bladebound type for Sorcerers. I'm not sure if it's what you're after, but it is an option for you.
Well... The thing is bladebound is a magus archetype.
|
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
Jiggy, check out the Player's Guide, and look under the classes. You'll find the Bladebound type for Sorcerers. I'm not sure if it's what you're after, but it is an option for you.
Huh?
What's the "Player's Guide"? Do you mean Paizo's "Advanced Player's Guide"? Because the only sorcerer options it has are additional bloodlines. And I've heard of an archetype called "Bladebound", but it's a magus archetype (not sorcerer), and it's in Ultimate Magic (not anything that could be called "Player's Guide").
So what in the world are you talking about?