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I'm playing a paladin in a campaign and this has come up a few times, and it's unclear to us what the answer is. If I'm in town and I want to detect evil people, can I do it inconspicuously? Am I "doing it wrong" by basically casting detect evil on every single person I meet? Is that rude to the other person?
Also, what about smite evil? If my paladin is preparing for combat, can he smite evil on an enemy without an enemy knowing he's been smited?
Thanks!
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SLA's dont having casting components, so im pretty sure you can detect evil fairly easily without it being too weird or rude, i've played before where the GM basically says i wave my hand out and i can only perveive what i aim it at
you should be able to just do it, as if it was still spelled and silent spelled
as for the smite, if your GM can use a smite attack on players without telling you thats what he's doing, then you can do the same, i would ask the GM about their particular interpretation
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You're staring at someone for almost 20 seconds. How much more rude can you get?
You're staring at someone for almost 20 seconds. How much more rude can you get?
But do you have to pull out your holy symbol and chant? If it's just staring at someone for 20 seconds, you could definitely do that without anyone noticing or if they did without having any idea you're detecting evil or anything unusual.
Most games I've played in/watched have the paladin be able to detect evil subtly (if a bit rudely).
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SLA's dont having casting components, so im pretty sure you can detect evil fairly easily without it being too weird or rude, i've played before where the GM basically says i wave my hand out and i can only perveive what i aim it at
you should be able to just do it, as if it was still spelled and silent spelled
as for the smite, if your GM can use a smite attack on players without telling you thats what he's doing, then you can do the same, i would ask the GM about their particular interpretation
Where does it say they don't?
Spell-Like Abilities (Sp): Spell-like abilities, as the name implies, are magical abilities that are very much like spells. Spell-like abilities are subject to spell resistance and dispel magic. They do not function in areas where magic is suppressed or negated (such as an antimagic field). Spell-like abilities can be dispelled but they cannot be counterspelled or used to counterspell.
And so
Detect Evil (Sp): At will, a paladin can use detect evil, as the spell. A paladin can, as a move action, concentrate on a single item or individual within 60 feet and determine if it is evil, learning the strength of its aura as if having studied it for 3 rounds. While focusing on one individual or object, the paladin does not detect evil in any other object or individual within range.
So unless it isn't rude to chant and hold up a hold symbol to everyone you meet...
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SLAs do not have V, S or M/DF components unless the SLA specifically says it does, and offhand I can't think of any that do.
In 3.5 Warlocks could cast their Invocations, which were SLAs, but it specifically said that unlike normal SLAs that they required a small somatic component.
So, you look at someone for 6 seconds, you can know... unless you get KO'ed by what you find (per detect evil)
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Spell-Like Abilities (Sp) Spell-like abilities are magical and work just like spells (though they are not spells and so have no verbal, somatic, focus, or material components). They go away in an antimagic field and are subject to spell resistance if the spell the ability is based on would be subject to spell resistance.
AoO are provoked because you let your guard down, not because they know what you're doing! The only thing they know is that you let your guard down, not why you let it down!
as far as smite evil, i dont think you can discreetly attack without them knowing they are being attacked... but, if it doesn't "smite" cause of not evil or a miss, I would say they probably wouldnt know, despite what cinematically would make sense. if you hit them though, I would say, since it's a holy power, they would know.
No one has really addressed though the question of whether I should be detecting evil on pretty much any and ever NPC I interact with. Is that normal, or am I going overboard? My DM is trying to prevent me from doing it by saying that I have to hold my holy symbol and chant for 10 seconds and it's super rude + obvious to the person I'm doing it on. I disagree...
1 round = 6 seconds, is only a move action to do... so 10 seconds is a bit off. Detecting evil with a holy symbol. RAW i wanna say is just fluff, and is super rude, no argument there. is usually polite to ask before you scan somebody.
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It says as a move action you can concentrate, not as a move action you can present a holy symbol and chant. That said, it detects auras of evil, which require cleric levels or evil extra planar or fiendish etc for them to register. Being a bad man or a merchant who cheats everyone or a rogue who robs houses and murders the occupants or being a necromancer does not detect as evil. You must have an aura.
no, ones with an aura are just easier to detect. and the first round of the spell just says presence/absence of evil, nothing about aura until second round. which for ability is almost a moot point.
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No one has really addressed though the question of whether I should be detecting evil on pretty much any and ever NPC I interact with. Is that normal, or am I going overboard? My DM is trying to prevent me from doing it by saying that I have to hold my holy symbol and chant for 10 seconds and it's super rude + obvious to the person I'm doing it on. I disagree...
this might be your DM's way of subtly asking you to stop using detect evil on every person you meet.
Maybe try and focus on how those you meet interact with the party, chat 'em up, rifle through their stuff when they're asleep or in the bathroom, shake down some known cohorts, find some possibly evil motivations... and then detect evil.
Roleplay the detecting of evil schtick rather than blindly relying on the spell.
Because really evil folk will have undetectable alignment up, anyways...
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There's no reason you can't Detect Evil on anyone you come across if you like. Its not obvious. Its a spell-like ability. "A spell-like ability has no verbal, somatic, or material component, nor does it require a focus. The user activates it mentally."
However just because the NPC registers as evil doesn't mean you can just haul off and attack it. There are laws against that after all. Just because you know someone is evil you can do nothing about it unless they break the law. Doing so will get you arrested or in trouble with the local guard/police force.
Also a character "acting with evil intent" pings as evil at the time but doesn't necessarily mean they ARE evil. So if you randomly attack them you could end up losing your Paladin powers as your god gets ticked off at you.
And of course there are lots of ways to avoid pinging as evil even if you are.
So...all in all its not a magic "I can kill you" spell.
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Spell-Like Abilities (Sp) Spell-like abilities are magical and work just like spells (though they are not spells and so have no verbal, somatic, focus, or material components). They go away in an antimagic field and are subject to spell resistance if the spell the ability is based on would be subject to spell resistance.AoO are provoked because you let your guard down, not because they know what you're doing! The only thing they know is that you let your guard down, not why you let it down!You let your guard down, and did so in a manner which your opponent knows he can take advantage of (or do they not understand why they decided to attack you just then?). No, he doesn't know why you suddenly aren't defending yourself properly, but (and I know, RAW doesn't explicitly say this) there must be some observable feature to which the attacker reacts. If you can spot it in combat, when you've got to focus on so many other things (like keeping your own guard up), then you can spot it in the middle of town.
He doesn't know you're using Detect Evil, but he does know you've done something out of the ordinary, even if it's just drifting off.
Not to mention that you still have to spend a standard action each round actively concentrating on maintaining it, which should also generally be a perception check away from being obvious. Again, not that you're using a specific spell like ability, but that you're distracted, not really paying attention to the person who's talking to you, or staring. You know, being generally rude.
"A paladin can, as a move action, concentrate on a single item or individual within 60 feet and determine if it is evil, learning the strength of its aura as if having studied it for 3 rounds."
No need to continue concentrating on a subject as it gains you nothing extra.
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People use whatever senses they have all the time, mostly subconsciously.
If you had the ability to detect evil, then that's what you'd do when meeting someone new, or in hostlie territory every time someone goes out of you're sight then comes back, or when you wake up in the morning...
In town, you'd scan the crowd. In a shop you'd check the people who work there.
If someone were to observe you then you'd seem a bit distracted, or it could seem like a '1000 yard stare'.
No need to punish the PC. Creatures without an aura don't detect until 5HD. If they 'ping', what will you do? Attack them? That risks a fall as well as breaking the law. Being evil is not a crime; you have to do something evil!
Detect evil just gives you some information; it doesn't solve all your problems. But if you can do it, you will!
So perhaps the most appropriate result to explain why you get attacked for doing this in combat specifically is that you suddenly look like you're in the middle of a phone conversation with someone else instead of interacting with the person right in front of you who you were just in the middle of something else with. I know that's enough to make me want to take my AoO sometimes ;)
I'm playing a paladin in a campaign and this has come up a few times, and it's unclear to us what the answer is. If I'm in town and I want to detect evil people, can I do it inconspicuously? Am I "doing it wrong" by basically casting detect evil on every single person I meet? Is that rude to the other person?
Also, what about smite evil? If my paladin is preparing for combat, can he smite evil on an enemy without an enemy knowing he's been smited?
Thanks!
I see no reason at all why you could not use your Spell Like Ability if detect evil in a subtle manner. Since this SLA has no actual verbal, somatic, material components or divine focus I don't see where it would even be that noticable when it is enacted.
As for the concentration required to get full information, I would say it is not more ostentatious than any other type of looking over an area or at a person. The spell does not make you glow or alert the person of your attention so they should be no more aware of your interest than any other person on the street, unless your blatantly staring at them, directly at them, unmoving, in their direct line of vision.
As for smiting evil, all your enemy will really know without taking other steps (such as detecting good on you and seeing your divien aura) is that you hit like a freight train. That could just simply mean your a dangerous warrior.
Hey, this conversation is back on the forums again!
First off, Jason Buhlman said that magic is not just about components.
In the end, it can be argued (and has, AT LENGTH) that magic is more than just components. Removing the components does not make magic discreet. There's still the whole glowy eyes, sparks, whispers of the life-less bit going on.
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As the "can you do it subtly" part is being addressed already..
The issue isn't so much "should I be doing this" as it is "what will I do if something is evil?"
Keep in mind- being a paladin isn't a license to smite anything that detects as evil. You are not a "i see evil I murder it" machine. If is NOT "good" to murder evil simply because your Detect spell pinged. Sure, it might lead you to the discovery of what evil is being done and it may be that said evil acts cause you to have to kill the person (usually when they find out you know and try to curbstomp you). But them being evil in and of itself doesn't give your paladin the right to kill them.
And of course, there is also "the DM is subtly telling me not to do this because it either annoys him, or will disrupt the campaign" issue. I'd sit and talk to him about it. If he doesn't just want you using it whenever you want to-w hen is it ok to use it? Try to work out some ground rules about when it Is acceptable since he apparently doesn't think that it is.
I think ingame, folks who did succeed at the spellcraft would think it rude of you to check them for evil. Its really none of your business afterall.
-S
I find it odd that most of this group finds it okay for a Paladin to go through a city and Detect evil on every person in it. There have been articles on this subject and the consensus is that it is poor role playing to go around and Detect Evil everywhere you go. Also it has got to get annoying for the rest of the group.
Actually I am surprised the DM doesn't hit you with an Overwelming Evil that knocks you on your butt. The evil guy just smiles at you and teleports away.
I see everything wrong with what you want to do UNLESS there is a plan in mind. (hunting a particular evil for example)
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I don't know why everyone is here assuming that as soon as I detect evil on a character, I pull out my sword and lop his head off. No, of course not - I haven't gone full retard. It's just information I use that guides my character's interactions with the NPC. An evil NPC, my paladin would never trust or do any favors for and would be super suspicious of.
it also got me OUT of combat one time since I ran across a party of goblins in the wilderness at level 1 and was going to come out swinging, but I detected evil on them and got nothing. So, I diplomacied instead.
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I find it odd that most of this group finds it okay for a Paladin to go through a city and Detect evil on every person in it. There have been articles on this subject and the consensus is that it is poor role playing to go around and Detect Evil everywhere you go.
Why? Why is this poor roleplaying? I'm not detecting evil on every person in the city door to door, I'm detecting evil on any person i actually interact with.
"A paladin can, as a move action, concentrate on a single item or individual within 60 feet and determine if it is evil, learning the strength of its aura as if having studied it for 3 rounds."
No need to continue concentrating on a subject as it gains you nothing extra.
As a general rule, if you're only interested in one person, yes, he's done after a full round.
But still a full six-seconds (Standard action to activate, Move action to concentrate on person in question) where you suddenly "drop out" in an obvious enough manner that someone who wanted to would get a free attack against you.
Actually stare at someone for a slow count to six sometime. See if they don't get nervous.
Ah, you read it as a standard action to activate and a move action to concentrate. I read it as a move action only and the Detect Evil of the Paladin is slightly different from the normal version of the spell. Interesting. Has there been any clarification of which is correct?
I don't know why everyone is here assuming that as soon as I detect evil on a character, I pull out my sword and lop his head off. No, of course not - I haven't gone full retard. It's just information I use that guides my character's interactions with the NPC. An evil NPC, my paladin would never trust or do any favors for and would be super suspicious of.
it also got me OUT of combat one time since I ran across a party of goblins in the wilderness at level 1 and was going to come out swinging, but I detected evil on them and got nothing. So, I diplomacied instead.
Note that creatures of less than 5 HD that are evil won't have an evil aura(unless they're undead or serve an evil deity). Goblins are typically Lv 1 Warriors, which means Detect Evil won't ping even if the goblins are evil.
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I find it odd that most of this group finds it okay for a Paladin to go through a city and Detect evil on every person in it. There have been articles on this subject and the consensus is that it is poor role playing to go around and Detect Evil everywhere you go.Why? Why is this poor roleplaying? I'm not detecting evil on every person in the city door to door, I'm detecting evil on any person i actually interact with.
I personally see nothing wrong with this. I wouldn't consider it any poorer RPing than a Wizard using Prestidigition to clean his clothes.
As for being able to detect if the Paladin is using Detect Evil the above discussion that was linked to does make me wonder... Nothing as obvious as hand waving, but maybe some kind of sign?
Honestly I could go either way with that. The point that perhaps a spellcraft check could identify what you were doing is an interesting one.
It's a move action, not a standard action, the ability says exactly that. So roughly half of 6 seconds, and he can do it to two people per round. Why wouldn't he sit at the back of the bar and scan everyone?
Low level people won't detect as evil, so your average Joe is under the radar. And very few modules and APs have undetectable alignment on NPCs.
Don't nerf the Paladin because you hate him, RAW clearly allows him to scan the room. In a minute, he can check 20 people.
It's a cone and you have to concentrate a few rounds to get anything other than presence or absence in that cone.
You can sense the presence of evil. The amount of information revealed depends on how long you study a particular area or subject.1st Round: Presence or absence of evil.
2nd Round: Number of evil auras (creatures, objects, or spells) in the area and the power of the most potent evil aura present.
If you are of good alignment, and the strongest evil aura's power is overwhelming (see below), and the HD or level of the aura's source is at least twice your character level, you are stunned for 1 round and the spell ends.
3rd Round: The power and location of each aura. If an aura is outside your line of sight, then you discern its direction but not its exact location.
Last time I played a paladin the DM and I worked out that the effect of the SLA detect evil is obvious even if the components are not. Also I'm sure it would be incredibly rude and socially unacceptable in general society as would any divination effects directed at strangers. I'm any campaign world of mine unwarranted divination is illegal as well although paladins sometimes get a pass on that law depending on how much political power religious institutions have taken in a particular nation. In a full-on theocracy paladins could probably just do basically whatever they wanted and as long as they didn't fall they could easily justify it to the authorities.
I never imagine smite evil to be visible until you hit an evil creature with it at which point it lights up with arcs of holy fire and becomes rather spectacular. This is so that paladins get feedback about whether or not their smite is working.
Since it's a move action for the paladin, does it provoke?
Standard action spells do, swift don't. What about move action spells?
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It is possible to make a concentration check to use a spell-like ability defensively and avoid provoking an attack of opportunity, just as when casting a spell. A spell-like ability can be disrupted just as a spell can be. Spell-like abilities cannot be used to counterspell, nor can they be counterspelled.
Jason's post on why you can counterspell spells even if they don't have components doesn't apply to spell-like abilities. Not only do SLAs lack any components, but they cannot be counterspelled. Any arguments based on that are built on a house of sand.
What we are really talking about here is special effects! When I cast fireball I'm sure we agree that the fireball itself is obvious, but if I cast protection from evil is there a visible effect? If I was playing a computer game version of Pathfinder I'm sure there would be; the programmers want to make their game visually appealing, after all. But the rules are silent on the issue.
For me, a paladin's SLA to detect evil, if it has SFX at all, it would be like a tingling if evil was present; the more tingling the more evil. You can flavour it any way you want (but should remain consistent for a particular paladin), but those SFX shouldn't be obvious to observers.
'By the pricking of my thumbs, something wicked this way comes!'
Someone that doesn't know what a spell like ability looks like is going to think he's doing math in his head or tripping a little. Someone that knows what a spell like ability looks like, or is familiar with paladins at all, is going to know what its like.
"How how are" detect evil. "You. Sir" is standard operating procedure for some paladins, particularly when the DM keeps having evil peasants trying to kill them.
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Since it's a move action for the paladin, does it provoke?
Standard action spells do, swift don't. What about move action spells?
This is a subtlety that is missed by most people.
It's not casting a spell that provokes, using a standard action to cast a spell is what provokes!
This assertion can be easily tested. If it were untrue, then using a swift action to cast a spell would provoke, but it doesn't!
The Actions In Combat tables show that casting a spell or using a spell-like ability as a standard action provokes, casting a spell as a swift action does not, and is silent on the issue of casting spells or using SLAs as a move action.
Any arguments based on that are built on a house of sand.
A number of classes and creatures gain the use of special abilities, many of which function like spells.
Spell-Like Abilities (Sp)
[/b]Usually, a spell-like ability works just like the spell of that name.[/b] A spell-like ability has no verbal, somatic, or material component, nor does it require a focus. The user activates it mentally. Armor never affects a spell-like ability's use, even if the ability resembles an arcane spell with a somatic component.
A spell-like ability has a casting time of 1 standard action unless noted otherwise in the ability or spell description. In all other ways, a spell-like ability functions just like a spell.
Spell-like abilities are subject to spell resistance and dispel magic. They do not function in areas where magic is suppressed or negated. Spell-like abilities cannot be used to counterspell, nor can they be counterspelled.
If a character class grants a spell-like ability that is not based on an actual spell, the ability’s effective spell level is equal to the highest-level class spell the character can cast, and is cast at the class level the ability is gained.
So you're going to take the fact that this is a list of how spells and spell-like abilities are different as proof that an unmentioned similarity must be different?
House of sand indeed...
Spells are not mentioned in RAW, but described by a developer, to have additional visual effects that are recognizable as a way of using Spellcraft. This is not just for counter-spelling, as you do not need to counter-spell in all instances. This is for identifying a spell as it is being cast. You may identity a spell as it is being cast without counter-spelling it.
Spell-like abilities function like spells in all ways except as described above.
Calling it a house of sand is ignoring true logic. If you wish, you may decide to interpret the RAW differently than described by Jason Buhlman. It is not a RAW rule, but merely an interpretation of it, so your interpretation is just as valid as mine or his. However, to claim that the logic is flawed is not an opinion. There is no house of sand, but exceedingly concrete evidence.
No one has really addressed though the question of whether I should be detecting evil on pretty much any and ever NPC I interact with. Is that normal, or am I going overboard? My DM is trying to prevent me from doing it by saying that I have to hold my holy symbol and chant for 10 seconds and it's super rude + obvious to the person I'm doing it on. I disagree...
It is pretty rude, rather obvious and generally useless. The alleyway mugger or pickpocket won;t detect. Even a murderer might not detect. He has to be at least level 5.
You can't just "detect" = "smite" in a town. Even if the guy is a priest of a evil deity, he may be operating under civil protection. If you do find him, and kill him, you may be up for murder charges. If you turn him over to the constables, they may go "Yeah, that's Bob the Evil Priest, we're keeping an eye on him, but so far he hasn't broken any laws that we know of. You do know this Kingdom has freedom of Religion, right?'
Mind you, in a area well known to be a hive of secret cultists of a evil deity known to practice human sacrifice illegally- or when you know there's a demon in the inn, hiding among the patrons, then no problem.
Or if the Constables know there is an assassin operating in the area, and you say "Hey men, this one detects Evil" then they may consider that probable cause. It all depends on the area and your DM.
If the guy you found is undead or a demon, then usually "Detect?"= "Smite!" would be OK.
i hate that i constantly reference it on these forums, but i've always seen detect evil functioning similarly to sensing energy in the dragonball series
it requires concentration and a general direction, and the more you focus the more you can pin point the exact strength and location
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I think how obvious a paladins detect evil is will depend on how he is doing it. If he is doing like the spell where he wants to scan an area it will probably be pretty obvious. If on the other hand he is using a move action to check a single person or object that is going to be more subtle.
The way I would handle it in game if he is using the detect evil like the spell give a perception roll vs. the paladins bluff roll if he is trying to be subtle. This is to see if the person notices the paladin tuning out for a few seconds. Paladins don't have bluff as a class skill but will have a decent charisma. This is going to mean they can probably get away without being noticed by ordinarily people most of the time. Anyone with a halfway decent perception roll is going to know something is going on.
If they are using a move action to scan one individual or item give people a sense motive vs. a DC of 20. This is basically using sense motive as a hunch.
In either case this roll just lets the person know the paladin is doing something. If they make a knowledge religion roll of 16 they figure out he is a paladin and is using detect evil on them. This is based on the DC of spell craft identifying the spell, but using knowledge religion instead.
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...Usually, a spell-like ability works just like the spell of that name.... A spell-like ability has no verbal, somatic, or material component, nor does it require a focus. The user activates it mentally....In all other ways, a spell-like ability functions just like a spell.
Spell-like abilities are subject to spell resistance and dispel magic. They do not function in areas where magic is suppressed or negated. Spell-like abilities cannot be used to counterspell, nor can they be counterspelled.
SLAs function like spells, meaning that the 'magic' works the same way; the range, damage, target, all that stuff (the game mechanics) work the same way for SLAs as they do for spells unless otherwise noted.
However, the cause of these 'magic' effects is different!
You cannot use spellcraft to identify a SLA as it is used! Go ahead; check the description of spellcraft in the skills chapter!
To cast a spell a caster has to do stuff including, but not limited to, V,S,M and F components. This is why it's possible to use a skill to work out what spell they are casting, even if one or more of those components is missing.
But SLAs are activated by nothing more than an act of will! This is why spellcraft cannot be used to identify a SLA as it is being initiated!
Just because the result of a spell being cast and an SLA being used is identical, does not mean that the cause is in any way similar enough to be obvious to an observer what the user of an SLA is doing!