I also want to point out that by RAW you do not need to look at someone as you're detecting evil. It says "concentrate on", which can easily be done with your eyes closed or your back turned once you've picked out your target.
I'm really glad that creatures below 4hd don't register because if they did Detect Eveil would be REALLY broken for a lvl 1 spell. It's a good balancing mechanic.Then again, there have been posters on these forums, screaming that disallowing them to detect any evil, no matter how small, totally breaks their Paladin concept... *ducks for cover*I suppose they need to get over that.
1/3 of the population probably has "evil" written on their character sheet, but if all they are is an opportunistic bookie, lawyer, or shopowner, then they aren't the EVIL the Paladin is really looking for, unless that have 4+ levels.
Well, that's my theory anyways.
Agreed. Tue evil should be pretty rare in my opinion. Cheating on your taxes, stealing, swindling, etc. doesn't make you inherently evil. It makes you a bad person, sure. But there's a long way to go between 'bad person' and 'inherently evil'.
Usually, a spell-like ability works just like the spell of that name. A spell-like ability has no verbal, somatic, or material component, nor does it require a focus. The user activates it mentally. Armor never affects a spell-like ability's use, even if the ability resembles an arcane spell with a somatic component.
A spell-like ability has a casting time of 1 standard action unless noted otherwise in the ability or spell description. In all other ways, a spell-like ability functions just like a spell.
Spell-like abilities are subject to spell resistance and dispel magic. They do not function in areas where magic is suppressed or negated. Spell-like abilities cannot be used to counterspell, nor can they be counterspelled.
If a character class grants a spell-like ability that is not based on an actual spell, the ability’s effective spell level is equal to the highest-level class spell the character can cast, and is cast at the class level the ability is gained.
"The spell activates mentally" does not proclude the fact that a spell-like ability is indeed cast. In fact, in paragraph 2, there is a casting time.
A spell-like ability functions like the spell in all other ways not mentioned, therefore Jason Buhlman's point (thought not specifically directed at spell-like abilities) is still relevant.
Now, as to your peach analogy, I would first like to point out that a spell being cast is directly noticeable, but it is a leap of logic to assume that a spell running its duration is. This means that the peach analogy is already a very flawed one. It's the casting (or activation if you're obsessed with using that word) which is noticed.
As to how? It's up to the GM because it is not specifically described. I'd like to imagine that the casting of Detect Evil makes your eyes glow white and everybody smells marshmallows for some reason.
You say that visible effects are not usually associated with divination spells, but if you read those extremely lengthy forum posts that I linked earlier, you'll realize that in order to identify a spell as it's being cast without any components, there MUST be a visible effect. So you better believe some sort of magical puff goes on for Divination too (I personally like to think its blue).
|
I'm playing a paladin in a campaign and this has come up a few times, and it's unclear to us what the answer is. If I'm in town and I want to detect evil people, can I do it inconspicuously? Am I "doing it wrong" by basically casting detect evil on every single person I meet? Is that rude to the other person?
Also, what about smite evil? If my paladin is preparing for combat, can he smite evil on an enemy without an enemy knowing he's been smited?
Thanks!
In my games I allow it to be subtly cast but I give anyone in the area a perception check to notice it.
Classes that have detect evil usually have it as a spell like ability so it does not require V,S, or M components to use. However while using it they do need to pay attention i.e. concentrate and that focus is what lets people potentially notice you are looking at them strangely (perception check) especially since you need to be within 60 feet.
If your GM wants to rule that it additionally makes a giant cone of white light that's clearly visible, I suppose that's his prerogative but I don't think it fits the text of the spell at all.
Also, if you would like to say that you do not adhere to this philosophy, that is fine. No interpretation is better than others and this conceptualization is an interpretation of RAW where the RAW is ambiguous.
However, when you point out that it is fact that it is not noticeable, I will certainly debate. My interpretation is no better than yours, but I will try not to claim fact until I hear strong dismissal of my evidence as "fact". I have a great deal of evidence on my side, with no leaps in logic that I do not admit to (I will gladly admit that there are OTHER ways to explain that a spell being cast is identifiable without components, but they are usually very sloppy explanations).
True, you can get a result in one round. But you have to have line of sight to the target. Doesn't the combat chapter say something about spell targets and line of sight? You can't just close your eyes in a room full of people and suddenly get a radar image of where everyone is in your mind. You have to see the person to see the aura around them. We use the terms ping and radar a lot but it isn't really like that.you don't need line of sight to use detect evil.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/d/detect-evil
"If an aura is outside your line of sight, then you discern its direction but not its exact location."
alright, I will quote it again...
Detect Evil (Sp)At will, a paladin can use detect evil, as the spell. A paladin can, as a move action, concentrate on a single item or individual within 60 feet and determine if it is evil, learning the strength of its aura as if having studied it for 3 rounds. While focusing on one individual or object, the paladin does not detect evil in any other object or individual within range.
What's the point of what you just quoted? The link EXPLICITLY says that you don't need line of sight. If you don't have LOS, you CAN indeed detect whether there is an evil aura and in what direction it is in. You can quote all the other minutia you want, but the link explicitly and clearly spells out that you can detect without LOS . Also, read the rest of the link. "The spell can penetrate barriers, but 1 foot of stone, 1 inch of common metal, a thin sheet of lead, or 3 feet of wood or dirt blocks it." Why would you need to penetrate walls and doors with detect evil if it required LOS?
|
True, you can get a result in one round. But you have to have line of sight to the target. Doesn't the combat chapter say something about spell targets and line of sight? You can't just close your eyes in a room full of people and suddenly get a radar image of where everyone is in your mind. You have to see the person to see the aura around them. We use the terms ping and radar a lot but it isn't really like that.you don't need line of sight to use detect evil.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/d/detect-evil
"If an aura is outside your line of sight, then you discern its direction but not its exact location."
alright, I will quote it again...
Detect Evil (Sp)At will, a paladin can use detect evil, as the spell. A paladin can, as a move action, concentrate on a single item or individual within 60 feet and determine if it is evil, learning the strength of its aura as if having studied it for 3 rounds. While focusing on one individual or object, the paladin does not detect evil in any other object or individual within range.
The Paladin can do both.
1) Use Detect Evil as the spell (and then see the quote)
2) Concentrate on a single target and get info as if he had studied it for 3 rounds with the spell
These are 2 different abilities available to the Paladin under the common heading of Detect Evil
BTW, the Paladin gets Detect Evil so that he does not waste a Smite Evil on the wrong target
@paladinguy... the ability Detect Evil (Sp) Link here is what the topic is about. You have to choose a specific single item to learn if it is evil and how strongly evil with a single move action.
nobody is disputing the spell, just the Spell-like ability of paladins.
So, I will rephrase my point. If you can not see the person/item, how are you going to focus on it.
Okay so I've done some digging.
The one thing both the Paladin ability and the Spell it mimics don't mention are the rules under spellcasting.
AREA: A cone-shaped spell shoots away from you in a quarter-circle in the direction you designate. It starts from any corner of your square and widens out as it goes. Most cones are either bursts or emanations (see above), and thus won't go around corners.
This indicates you DON'T have to be looking in the direction the cone emanates since it can start in any corner of your square. Furthermore...
Line of Effect: A line of effect is a straight, unblocked path that indicates what a spell can affect. A line of effect is canceled by a solid barrier. It's like line of sight for ranged weapons, except that it's not blocked by fog, darkness, and other factors that limit normal sight.
You must have a clear line of effect to any target that you cast a spell on or to any space in which you wish to create an effect. You must have a clear line of effect to the point of origin of any spell you cast.
A burst, cone, cylinder, or emanation spell affects only an area, creature, or object to which it has line of effect from its origin.
An otherwise solid barrier with a hole of at least 1 square foot through it does not block a spell's line of effect. Such an opening means that the 5-foot length of wall containing the hole is no longer considered a barrier for purposes of a spell's line of effect.
This implies that Line of Sight and Line of Effect are two separate things. I have a feeling many people, myself included, tend to think line of sight in terms of a spells area of effect. But nothing says that, instead it's line of effect.
So in the end I guess a cone shaped spell can emanate from your butt and have line of effect to people sitting directly behind you.
HOWEVER...
Concentration implies you are aware of a creatures presence even if you don't know exactly what square they are in. IE: if you don't know a creature is there, you can't concentrate on it. So in the Paladin's case...
A paladin can, as a move action, concentrate on a single item or individual within 60 feet and determine if it is evil, learning the strength of its aura as if having studied it for 3 rounds. While focusing on one individual or object, the paladin does not detect evil in any other object or individual within range.
So to me there's a chicken and egg thing going on here. How can you concentrate on a particular person or item if it's behind you and you are not aware of it? If it said concentrate on an area, that would be a different ball of wax but it doesn't.
If you walked past a group of people and knew one of them was roughly 15 feet behind you, could you cast the cone behind you and concentrate on that person? I don't see why not.
The difference between the Paladin ability and the spell is the Paladin has to concentrate on a single target rather than just put out a cone. And to concentrate on something you need to know it's there. Therefore it puts this line from the Detect Magic Spell in a slightly different context...
"If an aura is outside your line of sight, then you discern its direction but not its exact location."
You would have had to know something was there to begin with. Whether that's due to sight or sound or whatever. Again you can't concentrate on an AREA it has to be a creature or item. You can't use detect evil as a Paladin to find guys you don't know are hidden. That would just be broken at first level.
The end result is the same here as in the example above. You need to be AWARE of the creature or object to concentrate on it but DO NOT have to have line of sight, only line of effect.
And since according to Spell-like abilities which states...
Spell-like abilities are magical and work just like spells (though they are not spells and so have no verbal, somatic, focus, or material components).
Then based on all of that, I have to say that Yes you can use the Paladin's Detect Evil ability without being detected, IN MOST CASES, so long as you're not just staring at whatever you're concentrating on.
Whew.
So, I will rephrase my point. If you can not see the person/item, how are you going to focus on it.
@IejirIsk As per my sleuthing in my post above. You don't have to SEE something to concentrate on it you only have to be AWARE of it.
I was wrong in that perception(heh puns) until just now myself.
@anvil, alright, fair enough, i guess if you heard a sound.
@ooga that link describes the spell 'detect evil'
The paladin spell-like acts like the spell in a general sense.
EXCEPT where specified otherwise.
like target (spell=everything in cone, sp=one specific thing)
only taking 1 move action, not 3 standard actions
there are no verbal, nor somatic, nor a focus components to the sp
potentially if it's evil regardless of HD
if he finds a strong evil, he still gets knocked on his keister.
I don't have a problem with your description of what the Paladin does in either case. A move action does take "several seconds" and having him mutter a request (even a silent one) to his god is perfectly appropriate. Provided that a silence spell won't stop him from smiting. Darkness might keep him from detecting evil though, since he won't be able to see a target to try and scan. The Spellcraft check though seems, well, off to me. The Paladin isn't doing anything "spellcrafty." Maybe he's having trouble reading the back of the t-shirt on the guy at the bar? And Knowledge Religion, well maybe if the Paladin has a huge symbol of his god, but what if he's just strolling around in leather pants and a jerkin? And then about the glowing of that sword? A dwarf Paladin in darkness is going to have his god screw him up and give away his position? How about an invisible Paladin? Do you similarly give a Ranger's favored enemy some way of being tipped off that the Ranger REALLY dislike's him? Or do your Bane weapons function this way also?How I play it in my game:
paladin's detect evil spell-like ability...
The paladin must concentrate and stare intently at the subject for several seconds to look for an evil aura. While it isn't obvious to the casual observer why the paladin is staring intently at something, I allow a Spellcraft check (DC = 15 + spell level = 16) or a Knowledge (religion) check (DC 20) for an observer to realize what the paladin is doing.Paladin's Smite Evil class ability...
To use the ability, the paladin has to invoke it by prayer. Most paladins will do this verbally, (possibly in conjucntion with an Intimidate check), but it can be done silently. As a special effect, I say that the paladin's weapon glows with holy power while the Smite is in effect.
1) Re: Spellcraft checks: I allow PCs to use Spellcraft to recognize the spell-like abilities of opponents as they use them, so it evens out. (What's good for the PCs is good for the monsters, after all...) My general rule of thumb is that whenever a creature uses a standard action to invoke any Spell-Like ability (Sp), it's obvious that the creature is doing something magical. Agin, that goes for PCs and NPCs/monsters.
2) Re: Silence spells: Supernatural abilities don't have a verbal component, and that would not be required. The invocation is a role-playing effect, and can be done internally (i.e. silent prayer). I have allowed a paladin PC in the past to invoke his Smite Evil in conjunction with an Intimidate check to demoralize, giving him a +2 circumstance bonus as the evil opponent sees the paladin's sword get all glowy with holy power.
3) Re: Detect Evil through concealment: If the subject has total concealment (like being in total darkness or an invisible opponent), and whatever is providing the concealment does not block line of effect, then the paladin knows the direction and strength of the evil aura, but can't specifically target the subject.
4) Re: Visible effects of Smite Evil: It's a judgement call. It depends on the story I want to tell in a particular campaign and with the individual paladin. However, I keep it consistent within the campaign and for that character. If the campaign is revolving around the PCs needing to keep a low profile, infiltrate, etc, then the Smite effect might have a different, non-immediately-obvious effect. That would be different in a campaign where the PCs are highly-visible adventuring paragons of justice (i.e. a campaign where the PCs are effectively super-heroes.) And the Smite Evil of paldin of the Sun God is going to have a very different descriptive special effect than that of the paladin of the God of Beauty. I'd work with the player at the start of the campaign to define that special effect, so that both the player and I know how it's going to work for our campaign.
5) Re: analogy with the ranger's Favored Enemy ability: Smite Evil is a Supernatural ability (Su), meaning that it's a magical effect. In-game,the combat bonuses represent the holy power of the paladin's god infusing the attack. I think it's cinematic to have a visible sign when the power of a god is flowing through your sword. In contrast, a ranger's Favored Enemy ability is an Extraordinary ability (Ex), neaning that it's not a magical effect. In-game, the combat bonus comes from the ranger's specilized knowledge of his enemy's tactics, fighting style, psychology, anatomy, and physiology. So, no visible effect would be appropriate.
Not only is detecting evil on everyone you meet rude, If I were GM, over use might have an affect on your alignment or access to paladin powers.
If the way that you act with everyone you come across is contingent on whether or not you can magically prove they aren't evil, then you aren't living up to the "Good" portion of the paladin code and alignment.
If what someone says or does in front of you matters less than what your "Incredibly Easy to Fool with Low Level Magic" senses say about their alignment, then you are taking their moral choices and autonomy out of the equation.
You're a paladin, not an inquisitor. Give people the benefit of the doubt until they give you a reason to dectect evil on them. Judge them on what they say and do, not what your foilable magic tells you.
Not sure I agree with THIS philosophy at all... at least the first half.
My paladin rarely uses Detect Evil himself, because he DOES like to give people the benefit of the doubt, AND he's low enough level that it isn't THAT useful yet....
However, 'Detect Evil' REALLY isn't that 'Roleplayingly different' than 'Sense Motive'. Would you consider it a violation of a paladin code to try to determine if the person talking to you is trustworthy?
I would hope not. I tend to use both as a baseline when meeting new or suspicious people.. If someone detects as evil, I take what he says with a grain of salt. Evil people have no problem lying to suit their needs, and I should know that walking in. A sense motive roll tells me if I think he's lying THIS time... If he's honest, I go about my business.
Frankly, I feel detecting evil on everyone... is more 'annoying' then 'wrong'. You have the ability... Your meant to keep track of the alignments of your allies and employers... But USING it that way... is just annoying.
Is it RUDE??? No more rude than sensing motive on everything they say... and most players do that a LOT.
As for 'obvious'... Not in the least. We play where it is a move action to concentrate for 6 seconds... no casting, no components, just look at them and see the stain of evil on their soul. Gifts your god gives you.
Smite?? I never really thought about that... I'm not really sure why it would matter if that was visible or not. There wouldn't be any holy fire shining from the sword or anything.... that comes with the empowering the blade at level 5... Should you shout a battle cry?? I'm not sure... you PROBABLY are doing that ANYWAY...
All the power of the smite comes from the target... regardless of what YOU do, it will still not work if the target isn't evil... Yet he's still bad enough for you to be killing him ANYWAY... So I really don't think the difference between Wanting enemy A dead.... and REALLY wanting enemy A dead would have much of a visible effect.
OTher then the difference of stabbing the man... or Cutting him in half! :)
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
OK, now this is by no means RAW, but JJ just posted an answer to how he runs it, aka RAI, and there he said :
"When a paladin uses detect evil, a target may well notice that he's being examined. He'll certainly suspect it if he's smart, notices the paladin staring at him, and so on. If a paladin wants to be sneaky about it, he needs to make a Bluff check opposed by a Sense Motive check, or otherwise be out of sight or unnoticed by the target."
So, Spellcraft and Detect Magic do not seem to enter into it. And altho Pally's have good CHA, they are not known for putting ranks into Bluff.
The way I see it, if you make your sense motive then you get :"That guy in full armor is staring intently at you for a few seconds, then his eyes narrow as if he doesn’t like what he’s seeing”. I would give you the first part for Perception. But I think without a good Sense check, all you would notice is that guy over there is looking at you intently.
Now, I will quote: "You lookin at me?" as to how some may take that.
SLA's take a standard action, unless noted otherwise. In all other respects, they are treated like spells.
So, to the OP:
A paladin starting his Detect Evil is instantly apparant to anyone watching that he is using magic, per the Spellcraft and Perception rules. His facing does not matter. He could be facing the wall away from you and you can still see that he's Detecting Evil when it starts up. A DC 16 Spellcraft Check will identify the magic he's using as Detect Evil...it manifests exactly like the cast spell, in other words. Kindly note that the paladin doesn't need to be facing the direction he's Detecting in. Also note that a paladin without a line of sight to his target can't actually tell what the target IS...only that it's there. So, if he's on the other side of the door/wall, senses evil, rounds the corner, he can't tell which of the 20 people he sensed is evil unless he's ongoing and still sensing. Heck, he can't tell if he's sensing an unholy sword with a CL of 5, or a person!
Disguising the use of magic takes a feat. So, you can't just make it look like something else, or pretend to cast spells and fool anyone. Obviously there's more to it then that. It takes the blowing of a feat to make a Bluff check to disguise a spell.
It's a DM's call whether 'concentration' means it's still visible that he is Detecting. I'm inclined to think it does. YMMV.
There is nothing in the rules that says there is a societal penalty for Detecting Evil. A paladin should be EXPECTED to Detect Evil, and to do it routinely, the same way someone with a good sense of smell is going to sniff the air. The same people pissed that he's Detecting are going to be counterbalanced by the others happy that he is doing so. In any event, the same magical effects that stop mind-reading magic, a REAL magical taboo, block the paladin's ability, too. In a predominantly evil society, sure, what the paladin is doing is going to be looked down on. But in such places, evil might very well be a proud thing, the paladin a sot, and the paladin might be looking for those that are NOT Evil!
Smite Evil is a SU effect that while certainly magical, does not have any attached magical effect visibly attached to it. WHile thematically appropriate, there is nothing in the Smite Evil effect that makes it apparent as to what you are doing. So, no, unless your DM says that heavenly lights, arias and the like manifest when you are bringing the Fist of Heaven down, a target has no idea you just Smited him, nor does anyone watching. You will instantly know, however, as you will be aware of the extra TH and dmg applying, even if the enemy is not. Personally, I would make it elective. If you do a light show, for instance, then Stealth is out of the question...Smiting is not an excuse for the DM to declare you can't be sneaky.
And, as noted by others, Detecting Evil is not a license to murder people. You're a paladin, a true hero, not a murderer of Evil folks. Violence is appropriate in its time and place. Just note who is evil so that you can obey your code and not associate with them, quietly warn your fellows about those with darkness in their heart, and be aware of the treachery they present.
But you don't get to kill anyone just cause they are Evil. All you get to do is know...but knowing is half the battle!
==Aelryinth
OK, now this is by no means RAW, but JJ just posted an answer to how he runs it, aka RAI, and there he said...
Interesting to see James Jacobs weigh in his response! He's not exactly the rules guy, so not sure I'd call it RAI, but his interpretations are often used simply because he has a great eye for the system.
|
|
SLA's take a standard action, unless noted otherwise. In all other respects, they are treated like spells.
The result of activating an SLA is the same as the result of the equivalent spell being cast.
This does not mean that the act of activating an SLA is the same as the act of casting a spell!
If an observer is able to see a spellcaster as he casts a spell, then the observer can use Spellcraft to try to work out which spell will be cast when the spellcasting is complete! This observation of present spellcasting to predict the (near) future spell is what 'counterspelling' relies on.
However, an observer able to see a creature as it applies its will to activate an SLA will see nothing that lets him know what that SLA might be, or even that an SLA is being used at all! Spellcraft cannot be used this way, nor can SLAs be counterspelled at all.
The best an observer can hope for is a slight pause as the creature concentrates for a moment, letting its guard down.
Other skills may be of help; Sense Motive/Perception, coupled with some knowledge of who/what this creature is might give the observer an educated guess.
|
|
@ooga that link describes the spell 'detect evil'
The paladin spell-like acts like the spell in a general sense.
EXCEPT where specified otherwise.
like target (spell=everything in cone, sp=one specific thing)
only taking 1 move action, not 3 standard actions
there are no verbal, nor somatic, nor a focus components to the sp
potentially if it's evil regardless of HDif he finds a strong evil, he still gets knocked on his keister.
As I wrote a few posts above, the Paladin can do BOTH what you say here AND use the Detect Evil spell as a SLA.
IE, he can detect evil in a cone too.
by casting the spell 'Detect Evil', sure. No argument there.
|
|
You don't cast detect evil on creatures, you cast it on yourself to enable you to detect.
All this stuff about 'staring' at people; the person listening looks at the person talking, and that is normal and polite. A paladin could easily detect evil while someone is talking to them and there would be no indication that the paladin is doing anything.
You don't cast detect evil on creatures, you cast it on yourself to enable you to detect.
All this stuff about 'staring' at people; the person listening looks at the person talking, and that is normal and polite. A paladin could easily detect evil while someone is talking to them and there would be no indication that the paladin is doing anything.
That is not accurate, Malachi Silverclaw. You are not the target of the Detect Evil spell, and that's an important factor to note.
|
|
Area: cone-shaped emanation
Saving Throw: none
Spell Resistance: noneYou can sense the presence of evil.
In game terms, the spell does not have a target at all. However, it does allow the caster to do something (sense evil) that he couldn't do before, while it does not affect creatures in the cone in any way.
by casting the spell 'Detect Evil', sure. No argument there.
No, I think he can do either. He doesn't need to cast the spell. You say that it works exactly like the DE spell except where specified otherwise, which is fine. But nowhere in the "specification" does it say that he cannot detect evil in a cone. It just gives one ADDITIONAL way the paladin can detect evil (as a move action). Nothing in this description limits what the paladin can do, it just ADDS to what he can do in addition to what the spell says. Nothing in the following description contradicts or supersedes the spell description, it just adds more abilities to it.
So yes, of course the paladin can detect evil in a cone.Paladin description: "At will, a paladin can use detect evil, as the spell. A paladin can, as a move action, concentrate on a single item or individual within 60 feet and determine if it is evil, learning the strength of its aura as if having studied it for 3 rounds. While focusing on one individual or object, the paladin does not detect evil in any other object or individual within range."
spell description: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/d/detect-evil
hmm. that is an interpretation I have not heard before.
|
|
hmm. that is an interpretation I have not heard before.
If you've played any version of D&D, you'll realise that paladins could always detect evil somehow.
As the game evolved, that detect evil ability became an SLA which resembled the spell; i.e. the 'cone version'.
In PF, for the first time, the devs added the bit about 'single target/move action'. Understanding the evolution of the ability, we realise that this was extra, not instead of.
It could have been written with more clarity, but it was written by devs who were fully aware of the history of the ability, and if their intention was to take away the 'cone version' then they would have written it specifically to exclude the possibility. Not that there is any reason to take the 'cone version' away!
So, yes, paladins can now use detect evil in two ways; the 'cone verion' and the 'single target/move action' version.
Aye, if you cast Bestow Curse, you are attacking the paladin, and he is able to retaliate, AND the law will back him. You are the one at fault. And if you're evil, he's not going to give his business to you, anyways...and you'll probably find that a lot of people who believe what he has to tell them aren't going to send business your way, either.
Being pissed because he can Detect Evil and is going to sense you are evil, is like being pissed because people can see and you are ugly. The fact is that Evil people don't want others to know they are evil, and of course they are outraged once it becomes common knowledge. And all the other folks don't mind knowing their charming neighbor is actually a black-hearted villain they shouldn't trust around their children. Life is kind of funny that way.
Spellcraft to identify a spell being cast before hand is only needed for timing if you plan to counterspell. By the rules, you can't technically counterspell an SLA (verificiation, you can with a Dispel), but you can certainly identify the effect. It's treated just like a spell, and you can identify any spell with a Spellcraft Check.
And it's not like he's casting Detect Thoughts and trying to read your mind. He's a paladin, everyone knows paladins can sense evil, and telling him not to do so is like telling him to walk around blindfolded, you don't want him prejudging people based on appearence. eesh.
==Aelryinth
The problem with your analogy to invasion of privacy, which is just a bad analogy on so many levels, is that the detect evil does not actually invade the mind or thoughts of anyone. All the paladin is doing is visibly looking at you to see if there is an actual AURA of EVIL emanating from your body. You have no freaking privacy against people looking at the aura of evil you have coming out of you.
This is like if I put on glasses that could detect radioactivity, and then someone whined that I was invading their privacy by walking down the street with the glasses on and noticing they have been spending too much time at the nuclear power plant and are actually emitting radioactivity.
Furthermore, since it's in the public interest for paladins to know who in town is evil or not, I seriously doubt most towns have a law specifically forbidding paladins from detect the presence of EVIL. Can you imagine someone lobbying for that law? GUYS, PLEASE PASS THIS LAW. I REALLY WANT THAT PALADIN TO STOP SEEING WHO IS AND IS NOT EVIL. Umm, no. No one is passing that law unless the town is full of evil people that are in power and the rest of the electorate is so evil/shady themselves that they don't even care that the lawmakers are stopping pallies from seeing who is evil and who is not.
Detect evil != invasion of privacy.
Since it's a move action for the paladin, does it provoke?
Standard action spells do, swift don't. What about move action spells?
This is more evidence pointing to the ability being a standard action to activate, and a move action to focus. Indeed, the move action to focus is very much like the move action to direct spells such as flaming sphere.
|
|
The spell requires concentration, on the level of taking a move action per round. So yeah...that's a STARE. Enough of one that a reasonably perceptive person or one who's attuned to the motives would notice. So I'd allow a Perception and/or Sense Motive checks to tip off the one that's being observed unless the Paladin is doing it from hiding. (Nancy Boy!)Well,
Other skills may be of help; Sense Motive/Perception, coupled with some knowledge of who/what this creature is might give the observer an educated guess.
I can easily picture a grizzled veteran nursing an ale, watching the world go by for an hour or two. If that guy was a paladin then he could've been detecting evil the whole time and the crowd would have very little reason to believe anything untoward was going on.
If he wasn't a paladin, there would be no reason to suppose he was!
Pretty sure a Spellcraft check allows you to tell someone is concentrating on what spell (identify ongoing effect) and anyone can see that you're using magic.
The Stare means nothing. The paladin doesn't need to see anything. He can close his eyes, pretend he's praying, look at the ceiling. It doesn't make a difference. Anyone looking at him can see he's using magic. You need a feat to hide the fact, and a good Bluff check.
You aren't invading anyone's privacy using Detect Evil anymore then you are if you are using Scent, which most humans don't have, either. Someone with Scent can tell who you slept with earlier, that you're an addict, and that you haven't bathed in three days. Tell me which would be more societally impermissible? ANd yet, every dog can do it.
It's an extra sense you don't have. boo hoo.
And throwing curses is what got witches lynched back in the old days. that's not goosing someone...it's a downright attack, and will be treated very, very unkindly.
===Aelryinth
Pretty sure a Spellcraft check allows you to tell someone is concentrating on what spell (identify ongoing effect) and anyone can see that you're using magic.
The Stare means nothing. The paladin doesn't need to see anything. He can close his eyes, pretend he's praying, look at the ceiling. It doesn't make a difference. Anyone looking at him can see he's using magic.
===Aelryinth
Why? Why can anyone tell he's using magic? There are no verbal or physical components to his detect evil.
You can tell someone is using magic if it's still, silent and without material components. EVERY SLA is no verbal or physical, and you can STILL tell they are casting. All the 'no components' rule does is make it harder to ID...you can still tell they are casting.
Look at the rules. You can always tell when someone is casting. Precisely what may be hard, but you can always tell. So, obviously the 'components' are only part of what is happening. I'm guessing there is always a visual, audible, or 'mental awareness' component to casting that can't be suppressed.
==Aelryinth
|
|
You can tell someone is using magic if it's still, silent and without material components. EVERY SLA is no verbal or physical, and you can STILL tell they are casting. All the 'no components' rule does is make it harder to ID...you can still tell they are casting.
Look at the rules. You can always tell when someone is casting. Precisely what may be hard, but you can always tell. So, obviously the 'components' are only part of what is happening. I'm guessing there is always a visual, audible, or 'mental awareness' component to casting that can't be suppressed.
==Aelryinth
This is a fundamental misconception. SLAs are not 'cast' at all! They are 'activated' just by an act of will, i.e. thinking about it!
Jason was talking about spell-casting, not activating a spell-like ability.
The effect of a spell-like ability is identical (except where noted otherwise) to the effect the spell it is like.
This does not mean that the act of will that activates the SLA resembles spellcasting in appearance!
It's not a case of both spell-casting and SLA-activating are similar because the book doesn't say otherwise. The book does say otherwise! The CRB has an extensive section about SLAs and everything it says makes it clear that the processes that bring spells and SLAs into being are very different indeed. The fact that the results are similar does not change that!
Spellcraft allows an observer to predict which spell is going to be cast, based on the spellcasting process. Spellcraft does not allow an observer to predict what SLA will manifest; there is no 'activation process' to observe, since an 'act of will' is not observable!
It is not okay to assume that Spellcraft works on SLAs just because it fails to say that it doesn't!
It is not okay to assume that Spellcraft works on SLAs just because it does work on spells. The only similarities lie in their effects, not their causes.
Spellcraft is only used to ID a spell as it is being cast. This is for purposes of a counterspelling. I don't believe you can counterspell an SLA, except for Dispelling. So the use is moot, and that part of the argument immaterial.
Spellcraft can identify ANY magical effect after it happens. So, maybe there's a halo of pure-white runes around him as the spell comes up...you can't counter it, but its freaking obvious he's using magic, and you can ID that particular pattern as Detect Evil, just like you could if it was a cast spell. The difference is you ID it after it manifests, instead of before.
And the rules are, anyone looking at you can identify that you are using magic...they don't even have to roll. It doesn't matter what way you are facing. It's obvious that you are using magic. They don't even have to be LOOKING FOR IT.
them's the rules. the only way you can conceal spellcasting is to not be seen at all...i.e. invisibility or stealth.
I mean, seriously, you have a wildshaped druid in the middle of a flock of pigeons. He still silent casts some Natural Spell while in pigeon form. Anyone and everyone in the area gets an immediate spellcraft check to see what he's casting - even surrounded by hundreds of other pigeons! And the spell is technically no different then an SLA, and yet it can be ID'd and countered if there's a caster around. If he was using some SLA instead, they'd get the spellcraft check, fail to identify what he was doing, only knowing that he was working magic...which is what happens to a paladin.
Crazy, no? Paladins don't get free rides, any more then any other caster. Stealthy spellcasting is VERY hard to do in the game.
==Aelryinth
|
|
Spellcraft is only used to ID a spell as it is being cast. This is for purposes of a counterspelling. I don't believe you can counterspell an SLA, except for Dispelling. So the use is moot, and that part of the argument immaterial.
Okay...so we agree about this part.
Spellcraft can identify ANY magical effect after it happens. So, maybe there's a halo of pure-white runes around him as the spell comes up...you can't counter it, but its freaking obvious he's using magic, and you can ID that particular pattern as Detect Magic, just like you could if it was a cast spell. The difference is you ID it after it manifests, instead of before.
Spellcraft can identify any magical effect which can be seen. It can tell you that the flash you just saw was a fireball, or the metallic blur in front of you is a blade barrier, but it won't tell you that there is an active invisibility spell in the area, or that a creature is benefitting from see invisibility, or that a caster has a dominated creature doing his bidding in the next village, or even that a creature is dominated, although Sense Motive can.
In these cases there is no visible effect to see, therefore no information with which to form a basis for an opinion on what magic might be in play.
And the rules are, anyone looking at you can identify that you are using magic...they don't even have to roll. It doesn't matter what way you are facing. It's obvious that you are using magic. They don't even have to be LOOKING FOR IT.
Where on earth did you get this idea from? This idea is so wierd I'm going to need an actual rules reference. Either no such reference exists, or it doesn't say what you think it says!
Again, apparently Spellcraft doesn't enter into it, as far as RAI goes.
The way to tell if a Paladin is using his innate Detect Evil is mostly by Sense Motive.
I still don't particularly think James Jacobs opinion quite counts as RAI considering that he has disagreed with Jason Buhlman (in other instances. JB has not weighed in specifically for spell-like abilities though the rules clearly state that spell-like abilities function as per the spell in all cases that were not described). They are on opposite sides of the Paizo spectrum. I do very much respect James Jacobs though, and would love to hear his stance if anybody actually has that link.
This is a fundamental misconception. SLAs are not 'cast' at all! They are 'activated' just by an act of will, i.e. thinking about it!
As in the last time somebody brought this up, I will appeal once again. Where does it say that SLAs are not cast? In the Spell-like abilities part of the core rulebook, it specifically even states information about its casting time and quite specifically says that spell-like abilities work like spells. With absolutely no mentioning of casting in any other way, where do you get the impression that spell-like abilties are not cast?
The word "activate" is not mutually exclusive to the idea of casting.
In these cases there is no visible effect to see, therefore no information with which to form a basis for an opinion on what magic might be in play.
Except for the magic. I generally always agree with the aforementioned stance mentioned by Jason Buhlman that magic itself is something to see/smell/hear/taste/feel.
It doesn't need a spell component to be seen, because the glowing eyes is always an option.
As all threads that I take this stance, may I remind everybody that the book does not mention that magic has a visual effect. The book ALSO does not mention that magic does NOT have a visual effect. The interpretation that magic has a visual effect is an opinion of Jason Buhlman and others such as myself, and is practically the only way to explain how Spellcraft and identifying a spell actually works.
Otherwise, I would love to hear how normal spell identification works on a Stilled, Silent, Eschewed spell. It has been stated as a rules clarification that those feats do not affect the Spellcraft check to identify a spell. If you don't believe in magic itself being something to observe, then please offer an alternative explanation for Spellcraft in such an example.
|
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
though the rules clearly state that spell-like abilities function as per the spell.
Yes. But they are not caused like spells. Spells are cast, and spellcasting involves doing things that can be observed and interpreted using Spellcraft. SLAs are activated, which involves thinking. Spellcraft won't help you know what SLA a creature is thinking about activating.
SLAs function as per the spell. For the hard of thinking, this means that game mechanics such as level, casting time*, range, area of effect, targets, duration, saving throws, spell resistance, etc are adjudicated like the spell. These things are the 'functions' of both spells and SLAs, and these things are the same for both unless the SLA says otherwise.
The way these effects are initiated is not part of their function!
*You'll note I wrote 'casting time'. Well note this also; this is one thing that the rules say is specifically different between spells and SLAs. On the Actions In Combat tables, 'cast a spell' is one possible standard action, 'use spell-like ability' is another. So, when adjudicating an SLA, look up the equivalent spell to work out range, duration, etc., but where it says 'casting time', use that entry as your 'activation time' for your SLA.
magic itself is something to see/smell/hear/taste/feel
You mean, like invisibility?
You can imagine whatever special effects you want, but are invisible creatures accompanied by a rosy halo, a stench of rotten fish and the noise of abused gerbils? Just because you might imagine that anyone using see invisible has glowing eyes, or owl's wisdom as having saucer-sized eyes, doesn't make these things the rules, nor is it a good idea to make all spell effects visible just because some are.
According to the SRD, the Paladin's DE is a SLA. As best I can read, the ability does not require an 'S' (think Jedi hand waving), chicken's foot (material component) or even a holy do-hickey. Since you are interacting with the target's aura, I would doubt their ability to even perceive your check. Opinion not valid concerning innate Detect Magic.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Pretty much all anyone is stating is opinion.
Lots of my opinion is better than your opinion going around.
Nothing in RAW states you can OR can not see an SLA OR "magic" in general. I think that's totally up to the DM whether or not Detect Evil is noticable and whether or not a Spellcraft check will work.
For me when I DM, Detect Evil doesn't manifest in anyway.
It doesn't make sense that it would. You can concentrate without anyone knowing you're concentrating. Just close you're flipping eyes! lol.
On the Actions In Combat tables, 'cast a spell' is one possible standard action, 'use spell-like ability' is another. So, when adjudicating an SLA, look up the equivalent spell to work out range, duration, etc., but where it says 'casting time', use that entry as your 'activation time' for your SLA.
Okay, so you are saying that activation and casting are mutually exclusive things because they are itemized separately on the Actions in Combat tables? Fair enough. There's logic there, not proof, but reasonably debatable logic (See, this is how you talk to people without insulting them directly).
I was using that point mostly to deflate the concept, but I am willing to work under your assertion. I will now consent to say that activation and casting are two separate items. I'm still curious how this idea changes the concept of how magic works to such a degree that you can no longer remotely identify what is happening.
More to the point: How do you normally identify a Stilled, Silent, Eschewed spell? If you have an answer to this that does not include visible magic, then we can pass this logic onward to the inclusion or exclusion of spell-like abilities. Otherwise I'm not seeing a relative explanation or final conclusion to your point, meaning it is irrelevant if casting and activation are different if there is no reasonable explanation for casting itself.
Also, it is the casting of magic that is detectable and identifiable using Spellcraft, not the ongoing effect. Once the effect is fully in place, the magic may do whatever it feels like, such as turn somebody invisible. For the sake of the Invisibility spell, there can quite easily and realistically be a puff of blue smoke (I usually like to use blue for the Illusion school), then you are gone.
Pretty much all anyone is stating is opinion.
Lots of my opinion is better than your opinion going around.Nothing in RAW states you can OR can not see an SLA OR "magic" in general. I think that's totally up to the DM whether or not Detect Evil is noticable and whether or not a Spellcraft check will work.
For me when I DM, Detect Evil doesn't manifest in anyway.
It doesn't make sense that it would. You can concentrate without anyone knowing you're concentrating. Just close you're flipping eyes! lol.
I agree, which is why I had at least one thread where I mentioned that there isn't a RAW backing to either. Simply an interpretation of RAW which can be debated for a realistic approach.
that's the whole point.
You CAN see a Stilled, Silent no material spell, and you INSTANTLY get a Spellcraft check to discern what it is...despite it effectively being an SLA.
You can't ID a SLA going off, it's not a spell being cast...but you can identify the fact they are USING MAGIC, and when it takes effect, you can certainly identify it at that point.
So, by the rules, what you're going to see is that anytime a Paladin starts using Detect Evil, people around him are instantly going to know he's using magic. They may not know what, but they know he's using magic.
Whether Spellcraft, Perception or Sense Motive applies to the fact he's maintaining a spell while concentrating is up to the DM. I'd let all three apply to people figuring out what he's doing. There's total justification for all three skills applying.
And Detect Evil is by no means in the same arena as Detect Thoughts. Thoughts are indeed private. Guess what? You get a saving throw to resist them, and you can FEEL THEM POKING AT YOUR HEAD if you succeed!
Detect Evil? It's just looking around for evil auras. If the black aura sticks to you, hey, it's your own fault. It's like wearing a set of unfashionable clothes...sucks to be you.
Scent? You going to kill every dog and cat that a Druid could question?
==Aelryinth