When making a character with the voluntary flaws what is the lowest you can go with an attribute? It is 6?
Can you go from 10 to 8 just for an ancestry flaw. Then voluntary that 8 to 6?
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According to AoN, at least for the premaster, you can only apply one voluntary flaw to a stat, so your lowest would be 8.
Essentially correct: After applying your ancestry boosts/flaws (including Voluntary Flaws) and before applying your other boosts at creation (Background, Class, and free boosts), every one of your ability scores has to be 8, 10, or 12.
Technically speaking, offsetting a ancestry boost with a voluntary flaw doesn't count as a 'flaw' for this purpose, so you could apply both of your voluntary flaws to a stat that your ancestry automatically boosts, but you still end up with a minimum score of 8 (An elf gets a +2 ancestry boost to Int and Dex, but you could apply both voluntary flaws to bring this one of these stats down to 8. You couldn't apply a voluntary flaw to Con as it already has an ancestry flaw, nor could you 'double flaw' your Str, Wis, or Cha).
More significantly, this works in reverse as well for getting an 18 in a stat your ancestry has a flaw in (An elf could assign the boost from a pair of voluntary flaws to offset the ancestral Con flaw, and then assign the one 'free' Ancestry boost to Con to start with a 12 Con before Background, Class, and free boosts).
This exception is spelled out in the CRB (in a sidebar on page 26), but I can't find it on AoN.com at the moment.
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Can you go from 10 to 8 just for an ancestry flaw. Then voluntary that 8 to 6?
Core Rulebook pg. 26 4.0 Now that you’ve made the main mechanical choices about your character, it’s time to finalize their ability scores. Do these three things:Source
First, make sure you’ve applied all the ability boosts and ability flaws you’ve noted in previous steps (from your ancestry, background, and class).
Then, apply four more ability boosts to your character’s ability scores, choosing a different ability score for each and increasing that ability score by 2.
Finally, record your starting ability scores and ability modifiers, as determined using Table 1–1: Ability Modifiers.
Remember that each ability boost adds 2 to the base score of 10, and each ability flaw subtracts 2. You should have no ability score lower than 8 or higher than 18.
So if I was Human would my stat array look like 18, 16, 14, 12, 8, 8 ?
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This exception is spelled out in the CRB (in a sidebar on page 26), but I can't find it on AoN.com at the moment.
That is because this is the old voluntary flaw system that was removed in the 4th printing CRB errata - at the same time as adding the freely chosen +2/+2 boost option for all ancestries.
The new Voluntary Flaws optional rule just reduces attributes without giving any boosts in return.
And I haven't checked Player Core to see if the new Voluntary Flaw optional rule is in there or not.
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Can you go from 10 to 8 just for an ancestry flaw. Then voluntary that 8 to 6?
Voluntary boosts and flaws are added at the ancestry step.
You're allowed to break the rule about putting two boosts or two flaws into a single attribute, but only if the first was to cancel out the opposite flaw or boost.
So it's still just net one. This allows for turning an Ancestry boost into a flaw or vice versa, which was the main point.
This option isn't currently part of the published rules because it was removed by errata, although it's still allowed in Pathfinder Society if that matters to you.
i saw the same thing as Finoan in the Player Core. it now says you can take a flaw but that doesn't provide a new boost for taking the flaw anymore.
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Yes, the errata added the option to replace ancestry attribute boots with two boosts to any attribute, replacing the voluntary flaws option.
This option existed in the original CRB, but wasn't in the latest CRB printing and wouldn't be in Player Core or on AoN.
The new option still allows you to maximize your key attribute regardless of ancestry, which was the main function of the old rule, so I guess they figured they didn't need both. Although it does make flaws a lot less common.
What the old 2 flaws => 1 boost option did do that the current voluntary flaw system doesn't is allow for 2 stats at 18 at level 1.
Which I am glad is gone. It smells too much like minmaxing to me.
But some people like minmaxing as their way of playing. I'm not going to tell them that they can't in their own games.
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What the old 2 flaws => 1 boost option did do that the current voluntary flaw system doesn't is allow for 2 stats at 18 at level 1.
This is incorrect. It was never possible to reach two 18s at character creation.
It was never possible to get 2 18s or 2 8s in the old system.
The old 2 for 1 voluntary flaw rule is gone. I am happy to play it as a variant house rule.
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It was never possible to get 2 18s or 2 8s in the old system.
The old 2 for 1 voluntary flaw rule is gone. I am happy to play it as a variant house rule.
Two 8s was very possible. Most optimized humans ran 18/16/14/12/8/8 or 18/14/14/14/8/8 sacking 2 of str/int/cha for a save.
Did it not allow 2 18s? I never looked into it all that closely. I always thought it was a bad deal since you end up with lower stats overall.
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I'm pretty sure because it counted as an ancestry boost, so if you were like a dwarf you couldn't raise your wisdom with it
Correct: the single boost granted by the old Voluntary Flaw rule is part of the ancestry step, so it can't be stacked with the baseline ancestry boosts.
Character Creation Attribute Steps:
Ancestry: 2 Boosts - or - 3 Boosts and 1 Flaw (depending on your specific ancestry).*
Background: 2 Boosts
Class: 1 Boost
Bonus: 4 Boosts
*The Voluntary Flaw optional rule adds 1 Boost and 2 Flaws to the Ancestry step.
In order to get an 18 at creation, you need to get one boost from each step, which means the 'Class' step prevents you from getting a second 18 at character creation (unless you are playing with a particularly generous interpretation of the dual-class optional rule).
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Did it not allow 2 18s? I never looked into it all that closely. I always thought it was a bad deal since you end up with lower stats overall.
The major 'selling point' of this option was that it allowed you to start with an 18 in a stat that your ancestry gave a flaw to, but at the cost of overall slightly lower stats. These days, the 'two boosts and no flaws' option is almost certainly a better deal, which is probably why they dropped the original 'voluntary flaw' rule.
If you are building a Human sorcerer, this option probably doesn't look too hot.
If you are building a Dwarf sorcerer, this option actually starts looking pretty decent...
Two 8s was very possible. Most optimized humans ran 18/16/14/12/8/8 or 18/14/14/14/8/8 sacking 2 of str/int/cha for a save.
Myabe I got that wrong. Never mind.
Now it looks like taking a flaw is for players that want to roleplay their stats and want their stats to reflect a flaw they plan to roleplay.
So if I was Human would my stat array look like 18, 16, 14, 12, 8, 8 ?I can't find any reference to additional voluntary flaws in the new Player Core 1. So post-remaster, if you took an ancestry with an extra bonus & flaw it would be +4, +3, +2, +1, -1. If you took a human or any ancestry with the standard ability selection, it would be +4, +3, +1, +1.
I wouldn't, but if you're gonna... You could give them no heritage or basic ancestry features. There are backgrounds that trade a boost for scent and darkvision.
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The absolute lowest you can go with an ability score is 5.
house of hazards said:When making a character with the voluntary flaws what is the lowest you can go with an attribute? It is 6?
8. Or -1 with the new terminology.
If you use the rolling method you can get a low as 1/-5. Where do you get 5?
5 would be a 1E answer with normal point buy and a -2 in the attribute. That might be the mixup?