Monks...are there any good multi-class options?


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Xexyz wrote:
Martial Artist monks have no alignment restrictions and get immunity to fatigue at level 5 so a 1-2 level dip in barbarian is great for them.

How did I not know this?!? Thank you!!!!


gossamar4 wrote:
Dabbler wrote:
•You are a melee class, with no decent ranged weapons, but emphasis has to be placed on dexterity because you cannot wear armour. Don't even start me on BAB.
why would a melee class need ranged weapons? What do you consider a decent ranged weapon? Monks get shruiken, crossbows, javelins

Every other martial class gets bows, and can use them even as a back-up weapon. The monk can only flurry (and get proper BAB) with shuriken and the range on them awful, as is the damage. Only two monk archetypes can use bows, and they have to specialise in them.

Bows are a decent missile weapon because they have both range and rate of fire with no feat investment. Crossbows need a feat investment, little else comes close.

gossamar4 wrote:
Dabble wrote:
•You have emphasis on a mental stat (Wisdom), but you can't cast spells.
wisdom emphasis: aids ki pool, AC, will save, and perception. Fighter (melee) doesn't get those options. Monks have same opportunity as other "non-casters" to UMD. Monks have the Qinggong archtype to offer that option.

The AC bonus barely makes up for not being able to wear armour and is subject to MADness (in fact it's one cause of it). Ki is good, but not as good as being a 1/3 caster, or even as good a a magus' arcane pool. The effects are usually too short-lived (typically a round long, rather than an encounter long for the magus) for a pool this limited (same size as the arcane pool). Again, some archetypes address this by giving you ways of replenishing ki, but they are the exceptions.

Monks are not skills monkeys, and they aren't casters. They aren't even close.

gossamar4 wrote:
Dabbler wrote:
•You have emphasis on movement, but your biggest offensive ability forces you to stand still.
monks' emphasis on movement, helps them get into a more tactically adventagous position. Especially effective at getting past the front line and getting into melee with a "non-melee"/caster enemy. Every class' biggest offesive ability (full attack) forces them to stand still. The movement also helps them get to a full attack position faster, or close the distance and eliminate the need for ranged weapons.

Tactically advantageous positions are only advantageous if you can do something when you get there, and monks struggle with this. If you want to get there, fly trumps anything the monk can do anyway.

Of course IF you can get there, IF there is a "non-melee" class you can engage, and IF the people you just dodged past don't just turn around and pound your now-flanked monk into a bloody pulp, it can work. That's a lot of if.

Everyone has to stand still to get the best out of fighting...except a mobile fighter, or beast totem barbarian, or lance-charging paladin/cavalier... The problem here is that none of these (save the barbarian who has the easiest work-around) have any emphasis or reliability on mobility, but the monk does - it's supposed to be his thing, but it cripples his offensive capacity. He actually gets a penalty for moving because his BAB drops to 3/4.

If you are more than two normal (for the rest of the party) movement increments away from the enemy, all your mobility did was put you out on a limb where your allies can't help you. As for closing the distance against missile weapons that relies on there being ground you can move on between you and said missilers, and oh yes - you don't have anything effective to shoot back with which is what any other combat class is carrying and so doesn't need that movement.

gossamar4 wrote:
Dabbler wrote:
•You have emphasis on unarmed strike, but it's hard to enhance and is in every other way a 2nd rate weapon choice.
Monks' unarmed strike increases with level, 1d6 at lvl 1 (non-monk unarmed damage is 1d3)and gets to 2d10 at lvl 20 (non-monk unarmed damge at lvl 20 is still 1d3). Likewise, a lvl 1 longsword damage is 1d8... a lvl 20 longsword is still 1d8.

The most important factors in dealing damage are:

First - Accuracy: if you do not hit, you cannot do damage. Almost all other martials have a boost to their accuracy, and don't suffer as badly from MAD. The monk and his unarmed strike don't have these advantages, so at best unarmed strike is going to be a few attack bonuses short of the accuracy of his contemporaries. At worst a lot of attack bonuses.

Second - threat range/critical multiplier: rapiers, scimitars, and falchions are favourite weapons because they threaten a critical hit more often. Unarmed strike is in the bottom tier for threat range and critical multiplier.

Third - static bonuses: most damage at higher level comes from static bonuses. From strength, enhancement bonus, and special abilities these all add up. The monk has MAD to reduce strength, less chances for enhancement, and no special abilities that add a static damage bonus. That puts the monk's unarmed strike bottom of the pack for this.

Last - size of damage dice. This is a red herring that looks impressive but often isn't. A rapier doing 1d6 is a better weapon than a bastard sword doing 1d10 because of it's better threat range. If you are going to get an Exotic weapon, it's likely to be a falcata with 19-20/x3.

Basically, the rising damage dice of the unarmed strike isn't anything like as good as it looks.

gossamar4 wrote:
Monks' unarmed strike can do lethal or non-lethal damage (without penalty). at 4th lvl they are treated as magical for overcoming DR (no cost), which would required adding at least a +1 enhacement on a weapon (2000gp min).

At 4th level, 2000gp isn't so much that every martial has a +1 weapon, which gives him +1 to hit and +1 damage over the monk's unarmed strike (see above for how this makes it better). In short, they are better off than the monk. And who's worried about non-lethal damage? The rogue can carry a sap for that for all the times you are likely to use it.

gossamar4 wrote:
At 7th lvl, they are considered silver and cold iron (2 properties which are not able to be placed on same weapon normally, again at no cost) silver also has a penalty to damage normally. Not the case with monks. they also get more bonus' and qualities at 10th and 16th.

The silver/cold iron was recent addition, and a welcome one. However, every +3 weapon (available by WBL not so long after 7th level) can also bypass them, and get +3 to hit and damage into the bargain. Meanwhile, carrying a spare weapon of the material your main weapon isn't made of (and remember, Mithral counts as silver) isn't exactly arduous. So not only are the other martials getting past the same DR, they are doing so more accurately and doing more damage.

At 10th level you get past DR/lawful...OK, I think in 35 years of playing D&D I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of times that's been an issue. You struggle to get past DR/evil though, but any +5 weapon can. True, you get past DR/adamantine at level 16...by which point a +5 adamantine weapon with a couple of properties thrown in is within the price-range.

Again, at most levels the other martials are hitting more accurately than the monk, and doing more damage, and getting through more DR.

gossamar4 wrote:
Hard to enhance? All it takes is a magic item (most common AoMight Fists). no different than purchasing magic weapons. roughly same cost as 2 +1 weapons.

Yep, double the cost of a magic weapon and only able to enhance to half as much in terms of properties and enhancement bonuses. I call half as much for twice as much "hard" - especially when the item is as rarely found as pegasus poo, meaning that in all likelihood you need to have one made for you during down-time and not pick one up in a treasure hoard.

So while your typical fighter has a +1 weapon by 4th level, a monk is likely going to have to wait until 7th level for his +1 AoMF - assuming he doesn't need one with a property like agile to get his damage up - by which point the fighter is on a +2 weapon. So the fighter's always +1 ahead..no, he's got weapon training, he's +2 ahead at this point. Then you have MAD and he doesn't, make that +3 because you couldn't get as much strength together as he could. Then you're having to fight on TWF penalties or 3/4 BAB, so add another 2 into that - now you are +5 behind the fighter (and trust me, it only gets worse as you go up levels). So anything that challenges him to hit it, you probably need a 20 to hit at all, and if you Don't hit it doesn't matter how big your damage dice are, and if you do, well his static bonuses and threat range still means he does more damage, and he gets past the same DR you do (or more, and better).

So yes, compared to the weapons available to be wielded by other martial classes at the same level and factoring in all the other disadvantages the monk must contend with, the monk's unarmed strike most definitely and very demonstrably is at best a second rate weapon.

gossamar4 wrote:
Ki pool replenishes daily (same as spells), and only cost 1 point and a swift action to provide same effects as: haste, expeditious retreat, or mage armor. (only looking at CRB ki powers). not bad bonuses for no cost.

I don't know what spells you cast, but in my Pathfinder haste lasts for an entire combat, and effects the whole party, giving everyone an extra attack or extra movement for the duration. Ki only grants the monk an extra attack for one round, if he's using flurry-of-blows - that's not the same as a haste spell, it's no-where near it. Similarly, mage armour lasts for hours, not a single round, and it's not mutually exclusive with haste.

If a 5th level wizard casts these two spells for a five-round encounter, he has used a fraction of his resources and has plenty to spare. If a monk uses his ki for the same effects, he's just burned through half his ki-pool and can't have both running at the same time.

Ki isn't spells, it's not a patch on spells.

gossamar4 wrote:
I'm assuming your referring to Qinggong replacement ki powers. Would you say there are some spells that are "effectively useless"? Or even some at each level that are "more powerful" than others? Why would monk's choices of "spells" be any different.

Well if you have a Quingong monk, it helps avoid the traps certainly. But even the quingong monk is nothing like as versatile or capable as a proper caster. Half the problem is that the abilities, by the time the monk gets them, are old news because magic items and spells have long since replaced their usefulness. By the time "Tongue of the Sun and Moon" becomes available, any prepared caster that needed tongues will have been using it for ages, and comprehend languages from level 1.

Most of the monk abilities are less useful than spells (they are often spell effects with added limitations) and don't seem to be well thought out. Barkskin is a good idea, as the monk wearing an AoMF can't wear an amulet of natural armour, but why isn't greater magic fang in the list? That's something the monk could certainly use!

Wholeness of Body is another good example of an ability that is essentially just filler material. Sure, you can heal yourself...in a standard action, the same time it takes to drink a cure potion which at that level you should be carrying plenty of, and it depletes a resource you have little enough of to begin with. Now if it threw off effects like a paladin's Lay on Hands, or restored lost ability points or negative levels, it would be worth it. Otherwise...meh.

As for spells, all of them do something, but there are some a spontaneous caster should never take (and if he wants should carry in a scroll), or that a prepared caster will only prepare once in a blue moon. There are no scrolls of ki-powers, but I guess if you invested in UMD with your limited skill points you could use them...so could anyone else, though.

gossamar4 wrote:
Monk plays differently than other classes, but a fighter is different from a barbarian... cleric... palidan... ect... also. How you play your class' strengths determines it's effectivness.

What also determines it's strengths and effectiveness is how well the mechanics work, and I am afraid that even the devs have conceded that the monk is a very weak class - probably the weakest in the game, bar the NPC classes. The mechanics do not work well (although some archetypes work better than others) unless you sacrifice the concept of the monk, a humble mystic warrior whose hands and feet are deadly weapons, and instead make him something more conventional (ie armour-wearing and weapon-wielding) or turn him into the Incredible Hulk by dint of some nightmare of cherry-picked combination of rare magic items.

The monk does have some strengths (good saves, potentially great AC), but he often has to sacrifice them to cover his weaknesses.


Are you factoring Pummeling charge into the DPS calculations there?

Monks effectively have charge.


Imbicatus wrote:
Monks flaws are entirely fixed by archetypes and pummeling style.

Not really, the archetypes can often function better than the core monk by swapping abilities around, but they also usually pay for it. The ones that work best work by making a monk not a monk any more, which really defeats the object of being a monk.

Imbicatus wrote:
Qinggong allows you to replace the lackluster abilities with something good, and pummeling style fixes the problems with unarmed strikes and allows you to actually use you mobility.

Qinggong let's you pick abilities that do not clash as badly and avoid the ones that truly suck, but it doesn't "fix" the problems either - it just makes the monk a semi-caster that can't cast as well as a paladin or ranger at the end of the day.

Pummelling Style is a huge boost, but it works for every unarmed class and not just the monk. You can still be a better unarmed fighter than the monk by being something else.

Imbicatus wrote:
All of the classic complaints about the monk are only true when you are talking about the core rule book monk.

Actually the main complaints about the monk come down to:

  • MAD - nothing has fixed this, the monk still suffers badly from MADness.
  • Poor enhancement options for the unarmed strike - nothing has fixed this. Until the unarmed strike can be effectively boosted up to +10 in enhancements and properties, it's not a match for other weapons.
  • Clash between fundamental roles (movement vs combat) - semi-fixed if you are willing to lock into one particular style.
  • Inability to easily get past many forms of DR. Still not fixed.

    Imbicatus wrote:
    Although I'm still looking forward to the unchained monk.

    Me too.


  • ShroudedInLight wrote:

    Are you factoring Pummeling charge into the DPS calculations there?

    Monks effectively have charge.

    Pummelling style makes a difference, but monks aren't any better at using it than any other class and it locks them out of other styles (unless you go MoMs, but that's essentially a dip archetype for other classes rather than being a viable monk archetype).

    Grand Lodge

    EarthDragon wrote:
    For any full BAB class with mithral medium armor a two level dip in monk is great: gain two bonus feats, lethal unarmed damage, great saves and evasion. It only costs 1 point of BAB, 1 fighter feat and off course a delayed progression in your primary class abilites.

    I tend to agree with this: Monks make a terrific 2 level dip for most martial classes. My most recent character (just retired) was a Monk 2/Paladin 13. However, Evasion doesn't work with a heavily armoured build, as:

    Quote:
    Evasion (Ex): At 2nd level or higher, a monk can avoid damage from many area-effect attacks. If a monk makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, he instead takes no damage. Evasion can be used only if a monk is wearing light armor or no armor. A helpless monk does not gain the benefit of evasion.

    Easily fixed, I just went Monk of the Sacred Mountain, which gave me Toughness and a +1 Natural Armour in the place of the Evasion. :)

    Also, if you're going to go armoured monk, you needn't worry about Wisdom, as you won't be getting the Wisdom bonus to your AC anyway.


    just gonna note:

    -people need to pair dragon style or another method to use pummeling charge through things like enemy/ally-occupied squares, rough terrain, etc.

    -AMF price issue is fixed in the late game if you buy a clockwork prosthesis instead--cheaper in the long run (basically the same overall price as a firearm), can be fully upgraded/enchanted to effective +10 like any other weapon, and grants decent bonuses in it's own right. let's leave the fact that being an effective unarmed fighter in pathfinder literally costs and arm and/or leg for another discussion though.

    -monks still remain MAD and unable to trade flurry (since it is their ONLY class attack bonus, and full bab-2 is far more playable than 3/4 bab).

    what's worse is that you can be straight up better than a vanilla monk as a MoMS monk2/sacred fist warpriest 18 with pummeling style/charge via monk and dragon style bought legit; since you count as a fighter for bab/feat requirements in warpriest, you can get feats that monks drool over such as greater weapon focus/specialization, penetrating strike, and so on.

    Scarab Sages

    AndIMustMask wrote:

    just gonna note:

    -people need to pair dragon style or another method to use pummeling charge through things like enemy/ally-occupied squares, rough terrain, etc.

    Feather Step Slippers are dirt cheap and take care of terrain. Allies can be trained to get out of your way. If they don't, then bull rush the next one who does out of the way.

    AndIMustMask wrote:


    what's worse is that you can be straight up better than a vanilla monk as a MoMS monk2/sacred fist warpriest 18 with pummeling style/charge via monk and dragon style bought legit; since you count as a fighter for bab/feat requirements in warpriest, you can get feats that monks drool over such as greater weapon focus/specialization, penetrating strike, and so on.

    Sacred Fist trades out bonus feats, and therefore doesn't get to count as fighter for any feats. Warpriest only counts as fighter for bonus feats, not all feats. It's still better than a monk for almost all purposes, but it doesn't get access to the fighter only feats.

    Monk does, though with the martial artist, zen archer, or weapon adept archetypes.


    human racial FCB for warpriest lets you grab up to 3 bonus combat feats, which lets you grab greater weapon focus/specialization/greater specialization, if nothing else (technically a human/half elf-or-orc/scion of humanity aasimar are all able to as well).


    also, sacred fist only trades the level 3, 6, 9, 12, and 18 bonus feats, leaving the level 15 one untouched and free to use.


    @Dabbler - MAD, MAD, MAD, MAD....

    Dabbler wrote:
    Monks are not skills monkeys, and they aren't casters. They aren't even close.

    No one is trying to say they are, but since you brought it up... are fighter/melee'rs? I'm not trying to prove that a monk is a 1-man party. I'm just trying to help you get over your monk hate.

    Dabbler wrote:

    Every other martial class gets bows, and can use them even as a back-up weapon. The monk can only flurry (and get proper BAB) with shuriken and the range on them awful, as is the damage. Only two monk archetypes can use bows, and they have to specialise in them.

    Bows are a decent missile weapon because they have both range and rate of fire with no feat investment. Crossbows need a feat investment, little else comes close.

    Fighter/melee = Str, Con (can use a bow! awesome, but in order to hit with it, he's gotta be MAD with dex, or his bow attack is wasted with an inevitable miss. An action he could have used to MOVE up to try and full attack on next round) Since, according to your advanced theoretical math, a difference of +3 to +5 is a miss unless you crit, if he can see what he's shootin at since perception is based on will.

    Oh, but wait, since the fighter's will sucks... before he gets a chance to miss with his bow, a 1st level spell has feared, sleep, or hypnotized him (I'm looking at you color spray), meanwhile our monk friend has shrugged off the will save, moved further up to the threat... because not only does his class make him move farther, but because he's not having a reduced speed from heavy armor.

    -------------------------------------------------------

    I'm a little confused here you say...

    Dabbler wrote:
    The AC bonus barely makes up for not being able to wear armour and is subject to MADness (in fact it's one cause of it). Ki is good, but not as good as being a 1/3 caster, or even as good a a magus' arcane pool. The effects are usually too short-lived (typically a round long, rather than an encounter long for the magus) for a pool this limited (same size as the arcane pool). Again, some archetypes address this by giving you ways of replenishing ki, but they are the exceptions.

    then you say...

    Dabbler wrote:
    The monk does have some strengths (good saves, potentially great AC), but he often has to sacrifice them to cover his weaknesses.

    ok AC, let's assume a +3 dex, +3 wis on our "MAD" monk. Throw the "mage armor" on him if he's got a friendly ally caster and/or purchased an inexpensive lvl 1 wand. he's at a +10 AC vs the slow plate armor's +9. Luckily he is also not fatigued, because he is sleeping with his armor on, when caught by the surprise random encounter in the middle of the night.

    Dabbler wrote:
    Tactically advantageous positions are only advantageous if you can do something when you get there, and monks struggle with this. If you want to get there, fly trumps anything the monk can do anyway.

    I believe we were trying to compare melee classes... any reason why a monk couldn't get fly the same way the fighter did?

    Dabbler wrote:
    Of course IF you can get there, IF there is a "non-melee" class you can engage, and IF the people you just dodged past don't just turn around and pound your now-flanked monk into a bloody pulp, it can work. That's a lot of if.

    What is the rest of the monk's party doing? Watching the monk get treated the same way the fighter would have, if he could have moved more than 20'?

    Dabbler wrote:
    If you are more than two normal (for the rest of the party) movement increments away from the enemy, all your mobility did was put you out on a limb where your allies can't help you...

    would it be better to let the ranged attacks on the party continue while we wait for the slow, heavily armored fighter to move 1/3 the distance as the monk each round?

    Dabbler wrote:
    As for closing the distance against missile weapons that relies on there being ground you can move on between you and said missilers,...

    If no one in the party can get to them, why are we fighting them? sounds like we need to turn around and get out of their range. Is it OK if the monk takes a short nap, while the fighter takes 2 additional rounds on top of the monk's 1 round to catch up?

    Dabbler wrote:
    and oh yes - you don't have anything effective to shoot back with which is what any other combat class is carrying and so doesn't need that movement.

    let's refer back to the usefulness of the bows everyone can use, but don't have the ability score, feats, or enhancements on these non-primary weapons.

    bows = rate of fire with no feat investment? What? Name 1 bow firing character that doesn't take point blank feat chain ASAP.

    Dabbler wrote:
    First - Accuracy: if you do not hit, you cannot do damage. Almost all other martials have a boost to their accuracy, and don't suffer as badly from MAD. The monk and his unarmed strike don't have these advantages, so at best unarmed strike is going to be a few attack bonuses short of the accuracy of his contemporaries. At worst a lot of attack bonuses.

    3/4 Bab for monk... no argument there. fighter gets +3 on Monk at 10th and moves up to +5 on the monk at 20th. Every other bonus added to these can be received in the same fashion as the monk's "contemporaries". At each of these levels, is the +3 and +5 gamebreaking? Is it really the extreme of needing a crit to hit? I think not.

    Dabbler wrote:

    Second - threat range/critical multiplier: rapiers, scimitars, and falchions are favourite weapons because they threaten a critical hit more often. Unarmed strike is in the bottom tier for threat range and critical multiplier.

    Third - static bonuses: most damage at higher level comes from static bonuses. From strength, enhancement bonus, and special abilities these all add up. The monk has MAD to reduce strength, less chances for enhancement, and no special abilities that add a static damage bonus. That puts the monk's unarmed strike bottom of the pack for this.

    Last - size of damage dice. This is a red herring that looks impressive but often isn't. A rapier doing 1d6 is a better weapon than a bastard sword doing 1d10 because of it's better threat range. If you are going to get an Exotic weapon, it's likely to be a falcata with 19-20/x3.

    Basically, the rising damage dice of the unarmed strike isn't anything like as good as it looks.

    Did I miss the part that says a monk can ONLY use unarmed strike? Monks can use crit fishing weapons also. They can use a feat to get an exotic weapon with high crit range.

    Dabbler wrote:
    Yep, double the cost of a magic weapon and only able to enhance to half as much in terms of properties and enhancement bonuses. I call half as much for twice as much "hard" - especially when the item is as rarely found as pegasus poo, meaning that in all likelihood you need to have one made for you during down-time and not pick one up in a treasure hoard... So while your typical fighter has a +1 weapon by 4th level, a monk is likely going to have to wait until 7th level for his +1 AoMF

    double the cost is relative. it's about double the cost for a +1 on a single weapon. remember you need a couple weapons to cover cold iron, silver, ect... let's pour some more salt in that with your mandatory bow enhancement, almost done... you still gotta buy your armor enhancements.

    fast forward... you got your weapons and armor. 1st time your taken prisoner, thief steals them while you sleep, rust monster!, sunder, disarm, bar room brawl, ect... well you know, maybe your GM lets you recover, maybe he doesn't. I'm not saying it's impossible for a monk to have his unarmed strike disarmed, but he literally has to be "dis ARM ed"

    rarely found? I will refer you to the good ole PFS. At 4th level you have access to purchase the AoMF. Is it more "rare" to find in a treasure hoarde than the specific exotic weapon, your fighter specializes in?

    --------------------------------------------------

    Let's sum up: pros and cons to both (monk/melee'r), but neither will out do the other ALL the time. Each has archetypes to specialize in some specific scenario to excel in. Neither is generally a spellcaster. Every build for your melee'r can be countered with a monk build and vice versa, so this is an "unwinnable" debate. I can respect your 35 years of RPG experience, but we are talking about Pathfinder monk, not d&d. I would challenge you to roll up a monk and play it. I believe you may find they are not "gimped" as your argument suggests.

    Scarab Sages

    Let's not forget, an unnamed monk with improved crit and pummeling style will crit as often as a scimitar/rapier/falchion user. The only difference is when they crit, all of their attacks in the flurry crit that round.

    Sovereign Court

    There are a few barriers to multiclassing as a monk; First, you're M.A.D., so you don't want get caught between different abilities.

    Secondly, your Flurry of Blows. Flurry of Blows is both a very powerful ability and the least compatible of monk abilities. Oh, sure, your wisdom to AC is going to be affected if you wear armor, but hey, at least you'd be wearing armor, so it cancels each other out.

    No, Flurry of Blows is what you want as a monk, or whatever the alternative to that is. I have found that archetypes which replace Flurry of Blows are infinitely more compatible with other classes than the vanilla class. Why? Because you can use melee weapons without restrictions! If you are a Fighter/Master of Many Styles character and you can use your greataxe with up to 5 styles activated, you suddenly have a fairly potent character.

    I recently posted a build I called "The Kidnapper" which combines Cavalier of the Penitent with Maneuver Master. It allows me to tie up my opponents in one round as opposed to three and pass them over to my animal companion.


    gossamar4 wrote:

    @Dabbler - MAD, MAD, MAD, MAD....

    Dabbler wrote:
    Monks are not skills monkeys, and they aren't casters. They aren't even close.
    No one is trying to say they are, but since you brought it up... are fighter/melee'rs? I'm not trying to prove that a monk is a 1-man party. I'm just trying to help you get over your monk hate.

    OK, let me make my position clear here:

    The monk is my favourite class. I love it conceptually, and there are some great things about it. The problem is that mechanically, the monk is weak. Even the devs have come out and said it, the monk is a weak class. It's mechanics do not work as well as other classes. This is not hate, it is a fact. Saying otherwise is like saying that fighters having weak Will saves is "fighter hate"...

    gossamar4 wrote:
    Dabbler wrote:

    Every other martial class gets bows, and can use them even as a back-up weapon. The monk can only flurry (and get proper BAB) with shuriken and the range on them awful, as is the damage. Only two monk archetypes can use bows, and they have to specialise in them.

    Bows are a decent missile weapon because they have both range and rate of fire with no feat investment. Crossbows need a feat investment, little else comes close.

    Fighter/melee = Str, Con (can use a bow! awesome, but in order to hit with it, he's gotta be MAD with dex, or his bow attack is wasted with an inevitable miss. An action he could have used to MOVE up to try and full attack on next round) Since, according to your advanced theoretical math, a difference of +3 to +5 is a miss unless you crit, if he can see what he's shootin at since perception is based on will.

    The point is, he has the option of using a bow. And as for missing because he didn't make Dex his top priority, he can easily make Bows his second choice on weapon training and rack up some decent (not optimal, but decent) to hit chance with it. This is especially true of a TWFer fighter because he has the dexterity to make it work (better AC means he can drop his Con to get that Dex).

    If you are going to invoke MAD, the monk has it far worse trying to use a missile weapon because he has to split his points over four stats rather than three, so the monk trying to use a secondary missile weapon could well be worse at it than the fighter...

    gossamar4 wrote:
    Oh, but wait, since the fighter's will sucks... before he gets a chance to miss with his bow, a 1st level spell has feared, sleep, or hypnotized him (I'm looking at you color spray), meanwhile our monk friend has shrugged off the will save, moved further up to the threat... because not only does his class make him move farther, but because he's not having a reduced speed from heavy armor.

    Armour training means a fighter isn't that slowed down by armour either, and he gets the full benefit of haste boosting his movement to boot (and who doesn't cast haste in a serious fight?).

    As for the fighter's Will save, he has the spare feat slots to take Iron Will from the start, and if he didn't dump-stat his Wisdom that gives him the same Will save as the monk from the go-get. Yes, he does fall behind later, until he picks up Improved Iron Will anyway, but the big difference (and this has been tested) is that he doesn't let anything get a second chance on him.

    You can rave about better defences of the monk until the cows come home, in D&D, Pathfinder, and even real life, having strong offence is a defence in itself because the other guy doesn't get a second chance. Whereas the monk needs that higher defence because his poorer offence means the other guy gets a second shot, at the monk OR the rest of the party.

    gossamar4 wrote:

    I'm a little confused here you say...

    Dabbler wrote:
    The AC bonus barely makes up for not being able to wear armour and is subject to MADness (in fact it's one cause of it). Ki is good, but not as good as being a 1/3 caster, or even as good a a magus' arcane pool. The effects are usually too short-lived (typically a round long, rather than an encounter long for the magus) for a pool this limited (same size as the arcane pool). Again, some archetypes address this by giving you ways of replenishing ki, but they are the exceptions.

    then you say...

    Dabbler wrote:
    The monk does have some strengths (good saves, potentially great AC), but he often has to sacrifice them to cover his weaknesses.
    ok AC, let's assume a +3 dex, +3 wis on our "MAD" monk. Throw the "mage armor" on him if he's got a friendly ally caster and/or purchased an inexpensive lvl 1 wand. he's at a +10 AC vs the slow plate armor's +9. Luckily he is also not fatigued, because he is sleeping with his armor on, when caught by the surprise random encounter in the middle of the night.

    Let's take this further. You have +3 stat mods on your monk, that means 16s in dexterity and wisdom, leaving him at best a 14 in strength (and 10 Con, which will make him fragile) assuming he put his +2 racial bonus into one of these. He has a wand so let's put this at 4th level. The monk isn't sleeping with his armour on because while there's no penalty for sleeping with mage armour, it has a duration and will wear off after an hour. So the monk is 4 points down on his AC when the call to arms comes. However, his attack bonus from strength is a max of +2...so assume we have dex-based monk to cut the MAD, then we can drop Strength to 12 and have 12 Con as well, or maybe drop Charisma to 8 in order to boost up Strength/Con so he still has a 14. Given that his Dex is likely his best stat, let's make him take Weapon Finesse and Agile Maneuvers so he can make the best of it, giving him a +3 hitting stat for a two-feat tax.

    The fighter, on the other hand, is sleeping in his chain (night-) shirt to avoid being fatigued, so he's 5 points down on his AC (at this level, it should be +1 plate, making him 6 points down). Now let's stat our fighter - he'll be focussed on Strength, so he puts a 16 there and adds his racial +2 to get him 18. Then he puts a 14 in Dex and Con, because he can, drops his Charisma to 8 and bumps his Wisdom to 12 because every little helps. He takes his one-feat tax of Iron Will so he has a decent Will save. Then equipment, he has a +1 weapon, and +1 armour at this level. In fact, I'll stat them both out fully:

    Spoiler:

    Test Monk
    Male human (taldan) monk 4
    LG Medium humanoid (human)
    Init +3; Senses Perception +10
    --------------------
    Defense
    --------------------
    AC 23, touch 18, flat-footed 20 (+4 armor, +1 deflection, +3 Dex, +1 natural, +4 untyped bonus)
    hp 27 (4d8+4)
    Fort +7, Ref +8, Will +8; +2 vs. enchantments
    Defensive Abilities evasion
    --------------------
    Offense
    --------------------
    Speed 40 ft.
    Melee cold iron kama +6 (1d6+2) or
    cold iron kama flurry of blows +5/+5 (1d6+2) or
    silver kama +6 (1d6+1) or
    silver kama flurry of blows +5/+5 (1d6+1) or
    unarmed strike +6 (1d8+2) or
    unarmed strike flurry of blows +5/+5 (1d8+2)
    Ranged light crossbow +6 (1d8/19-20) or
    shuriken flurry of blows +5/+5 (1d2+2) or
    shuriken +6 (1d2+2)
    Special Attacks flurry of blows, stunning fist (4/day, DC 15)
    --------------------
    Statistics
    --------------------
    Str 14, Dex 17, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 16, Cha 8
    Base Atk +3; CMB +7 (+9 grapple); CMD 23 (25 vs. grapple)
    Feats Agile Maneuvers, Combat Reflexes, Improved Grapple, Improved Unarmed Strike, Snake Style[UC], Stunning Fist, Weapon Finesse
    Traits resilient, vagabond child (urban)
    Skills Acrobatics +10 (+14 to jump), Climb +6, Disable Device +6, Escape Artist +7, Knowledge (history) +4, Knowledge (religion) +4, Perception +10, Sense Motive +12, Stealth +9, Swim +6, Use Magic Device +2
    Languages Common
    SQ fast movement, ki pool (5 points magic), maneuver training, slow fall 20 ft.
    Combat Gear potion of cure light wounds (5), wand of mage armor (50 charges); Other Gear cold iron kama, crossbow bolts (20), light crossbow, shuriken (20), silver kama, amulet of natural armor +1, cloak of resistance +1, ring of protection +1, 8 pp, 3 gp
    --------------------
    Tracked Resources
    --------------------
    Crossbow bolts - 0/20
    Ki Pool (5/day) (Su) - 0/5
    Potion of cure light wounds - 0/5
    Shuriken - 0/20
    Stunning Fist (4/day, DC 15) - 0/4
    Wand of mage armor (50 charges) - 0/50
    --------------------
    Special Abilities
    --------------------
    Agile Maneuvers Use DEX instead of STR for CMB
    Combat Reflexes (4 AoO/round) Can make extra attacks of opportunity/rd, and even when flat-footed.
    Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead.
    Fast Movement (+10 ft.) The Monk adds 10 or more feet to his base speed.
    Flurry of Blows +2/+2 (Ex) As full-rd action, higher BAB and combo unarmed/monk wep as if two-weapon fighting.
    Improved Grapple You don't provoke attacks of opportunity when grappling a foe.
    Improved Unarmed Strike Unarmed strikes don't cause attacks of opportunity, and can be lethal.
    Ki Pool (5/day) (Su) You have a ki pool equal to 1/2 your monk level + your Wisdom modifier.
    Maneuver Training (Ex) CMB = other BABs + Monk level
    Slow Fall 20 ft. (Ex) Treat a fall as shorter than normal if within arm's reach of a wall.
    Snake Style Gain +2 on Sense Motive checks, and deal piercing damage with unarmed attacks
    Stunning Fist (4/day, DC 15) You can stun an opponent with an unarmed attack.
    Wand of mage armor (50 charges) Add this item to create a wand of a chosen spell.

    Test Fighter
    Male human fighter 4
    LG Medium humanoid (human)
    Init +3; Senses Perception +5
    --------------------
    Defense
    --------------------
    AC 22, touch 12, flat-footed 20 (+10 armor, +2 Dex)
    hp 36 (4d10+8)
    Fort +6, Ref +3, Will +5 (+1 vs. fear)
    --------------------
    Offense
    --------------------
    Speed 30 ft. (20 ft. in armor)
    Melee +1 falchion +8 [+10 for first attack] (2d4+15/18-20) or
    cold iron spear +6 (1d8+12/×3) or
    silver shortsword +6 (1d6+7/19-20)
    Ranged mwk composite longbow +7 (1d8+4/×3)
    --------------------
    Statistics
    --------------------
    Str 19, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 8
    Base Atk +4; CMB +6; CMD 20
    Feats Furious Focus[APG], Iron Will, Power Attack, Quick Draw, Weapon Focus (falchion), Weapon Specialization (falchion)
    Traits bloody-minded, indomitable faith
    Skills Acrobatics -2 (-6 to jump), Climb +7, Handle Animal +3, Intimidate +4, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +4, Knowledge (engineering) +4, Perception +5, Profession (soldier) +5, Ride +2, Survival +5, Swim +4
    Languages Common
    SQ armor training 1
    Combat Gear potion of cure light wounds (3); Other Gear +1 full plate, chain shirt, +1 falchion, arrows (20), cold iron spear, mwk composite longbow (+4 Str), silver shortsword, 74 gp
    --------------------
    Tracked Resources
    --------------------
    Arrows - 0/20
    cold iron spear - 0/1
    Potion of cure light wounds - 0/3
    --------------------
    Special Abilities
    --------------------
    Furious Focus If you are wielding a weapon in two hands, ignore the penalty for your first attack of each turn.
    Power Attack -2/+4 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
    Quick Draw Draw weapon as a free action (or move if hidden weapon). Throw at full rate of attacks.

    So let's compare them when that alarm call comes in the middle of the night. The monk has only AC19 because his mage armour wore off. The fighter has only AC16 because he is in his chain shirt and not his +1 plate. That's a reasonable difference. However, both are ready for action and eager to get into the fight!

    Now let's compare the other differences: The monk has way better saves, hands down. The fighter's saves are not bad, but they are not stellar. On the flip side he has a lot more hit points, so he's not too worried about that low Reflex save and his all-important Will save is a respectable +5.

    Now in the attack...the fighter wins, hands down. +10 on his first attack of the round for 2d4+15 on a 18-20 threat range is something the monk can only have wet dreams about. His +5 to hit on a flurry is appalling, and it doesn't get much better if he doesn't flurry - even if he burns ki every round, his three attacks at +5 aren't going to come close to the fighter's DPR. In fact the monk's best bet at this level is to use his Improved Grapple and wrestle his foes down in order to kill them slowly, using his ki to boost his AC/CMD. He gets pretty much one guaranteed kill this way, while the fighter is just going to hack his way through the enemy. The fighter doesn't care about his lower AC, or saves, because nothing gets to threaten him for long. The monk needs them, because he has to kill his enemies slowly.

    Now let's look at missile options:
    Far from struggling with accuracy, the fighter's bow, at +7 to hit, is more accurate than the monk's normal attacks. He's hitting for 1d8+4, which will hurt, while the monk's +6 with a crossbow hits for 1d8.

    It's not that the monk cannot do some things that the fighter can't, because he can. It's not that his defences are not good, because they are. It's that his good defences come at a price of having very poor offence, and if you are soloing a fight that actually works against you. If you are in a party, that offence is what you contribute to the party's success.

    gossamar4 wrote:
    Dabbler wrote:
    Tactically advantageous positions are only advantageous if you can do something when you get there, and monks struggle with this. If you want to get there, fly trumps anything the monk can do anyway.
    I believe we were trying to compare melee classes... any reason why a monk couldn't get fly the same way the fighter did?

    None, but that then invalidates the monk's mobility as being any kind of advantage. Plus the fighter can do more, offensively, than the monk can (see examples above).

    gossamar4 wrote:
    Dabbler wrote:
    Of course IF you can get there, IF there is a "non-melee" class you can engage, and IF the people you just dodged past don't just turn around and pound your now-flanked monk into a bloody pulp, it can work. That's a lot of if.
    What is the rest of the monk's party doing? Watching the monk get treated the same way the fighter would have, if he could have moved more than 20'?

    If the rest of the party were close enough to the situation to influence it, they wouldn't need the monk and his mobility to get stuck in there and do it for them. By 7th level the fighter is moving 30' in plate armour, and at this level the party arcane caster should be buffing with haste a lot, so he's moving 60'...

    gossamar4 wrote:
    Dabbler wrote:
    If you are more than two normal (for the rest of the party) movement increments away from the enemy, all your mobility did was put you out on a limb where your allies can't help you...
    would it be better to let the ranged attacks on the party continue while we wait for the slow, heavily armored fighter to move 1/3 the distance as the monk each round?

    A number of factors to consider:

    1) The rest of the party could and should have ranged options to return fire (fireball anyone? call lightning?). All the monk might have achieved is to get in the way.
    2) The heavily armoured fighter isn't that slow (see above).

    gossamar4 wrote:
    Dabbler wrote:
    As for closing the distance against missile weapons that relies on there being ground you can move on between you and said missilers...
    If no one in the party can get to them, why are we fighting them? sounds like we need to turn around and get out of their range. Is it OK if the monk takes a short nap, while the fighter takes 2 additional rounds on top of the monk's 1 round to catch up?

    Oooh, let's see: they are at the top of a cliff the party have to get to in order to enter a complex? They are flying and have caught the party in the open? The party have to get into a castle and they are on the walls? There are many situations you can get into where just rushing up to the enemy and punching them in the face isn't a viable or sensible option (in some cases, that's the point of them shooting at you, to get you to come to them and their nice little killing zone trap they laid out for you).

    BTW, the monk isn't moving three times faster than the fighter until 18th level (at this level, stuff like cloaks of flying and boots of speed are pocket-change so ground speed doesn't really come into it any more). He isn't moving faster than twice the fighter's speed until 12th, and that assumes no buffs or magic items.

    gossamar4 wrote:
    Dabbler wrote:
    and oh yes - you don't have anything effective to shoot back with which is what any other combat class is carrying and so doesn't need that movement.
    let's refer back to the usefulness of the bows everyone can use, but don't have the ability score, feats, or enhancements on these non-primary weapons.

    Like the non-primary bow on the fighter I statted out above that was more accurate and did more damage than the monk I also stated out based up on your ability scores? I rest my case.

    gossamar4 wrote:
    bows = rate of fire with no feat investment? What? Name 1 bow firing character that doesn't take point blank feat chain ASAP.

    See example above. If it's within 30' and the bow is not your primary weapon, you should be engaging in melee if you can - the cases where you cannot are corner cases. If they are beyond 30', Point Blank Shot is wasted unless you want other archery feats, which you won't waste on a secondary weapon unless you have feat slots going spare.

    gossamar4 wrote:
    Dabbler wrote:
    First - Accuracy: if you do not hit, you cannot do damage. Almost all other martials have a boost to their accuracy, and don't suffer as badly from MAD. The monk and his unarmed strike don't have these advantages, so at best unarmed strike is going to be a few attack bonuses short of the accuracy of his contemporaries. At worst a lot of attack bonuses.
    3/4 Bab for monk... no argument there. fighter gets +3 on Monk at 10th and moves up to +5 on the monk at 20th. Every other bonus added to these can be received in the same fashion as the monk's "contemporaries". At each of these levels, is the +3 and +5 gamebreaking? Is it really the extreme of needing a crit to hit? I think not.

    But that's not the end of the story, is it? Because the fighter also gets +4 from weapon training, +1 from Greater Weapon Focus, and probably +1-2 from MAD dragging the monk down as well. That's a grand total of +11-12 over the monk by the time you get to the top, and that's without Gloves of Dueling that add another +2. So any enemy with enough AC to make the fighter hit less than 95% of the time with his first hit, the monk will miss a lot more often than he hits. Any foe with AC sufficient to make that fighter have something even approaching a 50/50 chance of hitting with his opening attack, the monk will need to pray for 20's.

    gossamar4 wrote:
    Dabbler wrote:

    Second - threat range/critical multiplier: rapiers, scimitars, and falchions are favourite weapons because they threaten a critical hit more often. Unarmed strike is in the bottom tier for threat range and critical multiplier.

    Third - static bonuses: most damage at higher level comes from static bonuses. From strength, enhancement bonus, and special abilities these all add up. The monk has MAD to reduce strength, less chances for enhancement, and no special abilities that add a static damage bonus. That puts the monk's unarmed strike bottom of the pack for this.

    Last - size of damage dice. This is a red herring that looks impressive but often isn't. A rapier doing 1d6 is a better weapon than a bastard sword doing 1d10 because of it's better threat range. If you are going to get an Exotic weapon, it's likely to be a falcata with 19-20/x3.

    Basically, the rising damage dice of the unarmed strike isn't anything like as good as it looks.

    Did I miss the part that says a monk can ONLY use unarmed strike? Monks can use crit fishing weapons also. They can use a feat to get an exotic weapon with high crit range.

    Of course the monk can use weapons. Of course to many people that defeats the concept of using a monk in the first place, but he can. Now let's see...weapons the monk is proficient in and are monk weapons...

    Oh look, there's the temple sword, with 19-20/x2 - hardly a crit-fishing weapon, really, is it?

    How about other monk weapons? Well most of them are rubbish, and not worth the feat it takes a pure monk to get them. Off hand, I don't think any of them qualify for being called "crit fishing" weapons. You could get Crusader's Flurry, but that requires a dip into cleric, a deity with a crit-fishing favoured weapon, and a two-feat tax on top to achieve.

    Sad to say, pretty much all the easily available monk weapons are second rate.

    All of which distracts from the fact that the monk, unlike the other combat classes, gets no static damage bonus from features or feats.

    gossamar4 wrote:
    Dabbler wrote:
    Yep, double the cost of a magic weapon and only able to enhance to half as much in terms of properties and enhancement bonuses. I call half as much for twice as much "hard" - especially when the item is as rarely found as pegasus poo, meaning that in all likelihood you need to have one made for you during down-time and not pick one up in a treasure hoard... So while your typical fighter has a +1 weapon by 4th level, a monk is likely going to have to wait until 7th level for his +1 AoMF
    double the cost is relative. it's about double the cost for a +1 on a single weapon. remember you need a couple weapons to cover cold iron, silver, ect...

    ...but they don't need to be enchanted, they just need to be cold iron or silver, and then they'll still out-DPR the monk against those enemies, and once you pick up a +3 weapon you can bin them...

    gossamar4 wrote:
    let's pour some more salt in that with your mandatory bow enhancement, almost done...

    Where does it say they are mandatory? Those +1 arrows I picked up off the harpy we killed work just fine in my bow and make it a +1 equivalent weapon, and for the number of times I'll need it they'll do just fine to give me a better ranged attack than your monk has a melee attack. You can also carry a handful of cold iron, silver, even adamantine arrows for very little relative cost - have your salt back...

    gossamar4 wrote:
    you still gotta buy your armor enhancements.

    And you have to buy bracers, rings, and amulets that cost a lot more than armour. The monk is often just as equipment-dependent for his performance as any other class, and losing it hurts him as bad. Have your salt back, with interest.

    gossamar4 wrote:
    fast forward... you got your weapons and armor. 1st time your taken prisoner,

    Happens a lot, does it? Well no...in fact in many years of adventuring, the only time being taken prisoner has been guaranteed is as a plot-device. Otherwise it only happens VERY rarely when things went VERY wrong.

    gossamar4 wrote:
    thief steals them while you sleep

    The monk is as equipment-dependent as the fighter, this applies to him as well. Plus, I haven't had this happen a lot either.

    gossamar4 wrote:
    rust monster!

    At last, the one legitimate terror! Yes, the rust monster is the mortal fear of every martial class except the monk. That's why they carry non-ferrous secondary weapons, and....bows! Shoot that pesky monster before he gets close...

    gossamar4 wrote:
    sunder

    Only seen it once, and that's why at higher levels all my weapons are adamantine and my armour living steel.

    gossamar4 wrote:
    disarm

    Not as easy as it sounds on a fighter, and then there's Quickdraw and reserve weapons. It's an inconvenience, that's all.

    gossamar4 wrote:
    bar room brawl, ect...

    Tables make good missile weapons.

    gossamar4 wrote:
    well you know, maybe your GM lets you recover, maybe he doesn't. I'm not saying it's impossible for a monk to have his unarmed strike disarmed, but he literally has to be "dis ARM ed"

    You mean, maybe IF the GM goes out of his way to be a d*ck by throwing all of these at the party in order to nerf their gear, the monk doesn't suffer quite as badly as everyone else until they are able to fashion clubs from whatever materials are at hand, or steal weapons and armour.

    The problem with the monk is that the GM doesn't have to be a d*ck to him for him to have substandard gear, the game can do that all on it's own.

    gossamar4 wrote:
    rarely found? I will refer you to the good ole PFS.

    It has already been noted that monks are better off in PFS. I doin't get to play PFS, so that doesn't help me much.

    gossamar4 wrote:
    At 4th level you have access to purchase the AoMF.

    Not in actual games you don't, wealth is usually picked up in loot, and you rarely have the funds as ready cash. If you are designing for a given level, most people play "no single item worth more than 50% WBL" to keep it real, some go to 25%. That puts it back to 5th or 6th level - assuming the GM lets you find a crafter willing to make it and allows you the down-time. Some adventures run on a set time-scale so this isn't always an option.

    gossamar4 wrote:
    Is it more "rare" to find in a treasure hoarde than the specific exotic weapon, your fighter specializes in?

    Yes. There are a number of very good weapons that are quite common for fighters to specialise in: scimitar, rapier, kukri, falchion - all of them more common than the AoMF. And if you want one enchanted, it costs less and takes less time.

    Then there's the point that any properties you might want on your AoMF limit it considerably given it's +5 cap - for example, the dex-strong monk you suggested might want the agile property; not only does that cost him +1, it means his AoMF can never be better than +4, so at high levels he is never going to get through DR/evil based on just that amulet and his unarmed strike. Not so with other magic weapons.

    gossamar4 wrote:
    Let's sum up: pros and cons to both (monk/melee'r), but neither will out do the other ALL the time.

    Absolutely true. But when it comes to, you know, meleeing, the other classes ALWAYS outdo the monk, all other factors being equal.

    gossamar4 wrote:
    Each has archetypes to specialize in some specific scenario to excel in.

    In the case of the monk, it's not so much "excel" as "not suck", I'm afraid. There are a few good ones - tetori, sohei, etc. - but they are either one-trick ponies or else they give effectively being a monk in order to become something else.

    gossamar4 wrote:
    Neither is generally a spellcaster.

    Agreed, although paladins and rangers are 1/3 casters.

    gossamar4 wrote:
    Every build for your melee'r can be countered with a monk build and vice versa, so this is an "unwinnable" debate.

    Very true! But what you CAN do (and has been done on these boards) is compare builds for what they can bring to a party. That has been and gone, comparing various monk builds with builds from the other combat classes and comparing what they can bring to the table.

    Sadly, the monk didn't do so well. While it's easy to build a monk who is not a liability, it's hard to build a monk that can contribute as much as one of the other combat classes. The monk's offence is simply too weak, and he doesn't have much else that he can positively do for the party that another class couldn't do better.

    gossamar4 wrote:
    I can respect your 35 years of RPG experience, but we are talking about Pathfinder monk, not d&d. I would challenge you to roll up a monk and play it. I believe you may find they are not "gimped" as your argument suggests.

    Every point I have raised in the mechanics is one I have first encountered in actual game-play. I am not just theory-crafting. I have played many monks, and seen more played in games I have run. I have worked out the mechanics of why the monk struggled after the event, not before. I will repeat, the monk is, conceptually, my favourite class, but I cannot ignore that the mechanics are weak and the class does not function as intended.

    I've even got a thread running for a game where I am play-testing some changes to the monk that are minor but addess the issues here.

    The changes I am looking at::


    • Ki-strike gives an actual enhancement bonus, not just DR-bypass. +1 at 4th level, +2 at 7th level, +3 at 10th level, +4 at 13th level, and +5 at 16th level. The AoMF is still needed to supply weapon properties if you want them, but is no longer essential. I did a lot of work on the Dreamscarred Press soulknife, so I know from the number crunching there that this won't upset the game balance or WBL, but it makes quite a difference to the monk's viability.

    • Unarmed Strike can ignore 1 point of DR (of any type save epic) for every level the monk possesses. This gives the monk a "special" feature that makes him useful - he can't always hurt a lot, but he can always do hurt to something. That's valuable to a party.

    • The monk uses Wisdom to hit with monk weapons and unarmed strikes. I've seriously toyed with wisdom to damage as well at higher levels, but I'd rather that was a property like Guided. In the example monk in his post you could jack up wisdom to 18 (including racial bonus), drop dexterity to 14, and then have better accuracy without sacrificing AC or paying a feat-tax. Add in the +1 enhancement from ki-strike above, and he's hitting twice at +7/+7 against the fighter's once at +10 - not beating him, but appearing on the same playing field now.

    • The monk is proficient with all monk weapons. No-brainer there, as most "monk" type weapons really are not worth the proficiency feat even if you are a monk, but can be nice if you carry them for options. It also means you can pick them up and use them if you find them.

    • The monk can spend a ki-point for an extra attack in any round in which he makes an attack of any kind. He doesn't have to be flurrying, he can make a single attack - on a charge, say - and get an extra one. It gives him a slight edge when it comes to using his movement.

    • The monk can pay a ki-point to move 20 feet as a swift action rather than an extra 20 feet; this is normal movement, and provokes attacks of opportunity as normal. This makes darting around the battlefield easier as the monk can move a short distance and still flurry. It means he really can "be where needed" among the party.

    Small changes, but added up I've found they make quite a difference. So far (we've reached 13th level) this monk isn't overshadowing the party barbarian in DPR, but he's making significant contributions to every fight.


    Imbicatus wrote:
    Let's not forget, an unnamed monk with improved crit and pummeling style will crit as often as a scimitar/rapier/falchion user. The only difference is when they crit, all of their attacks in the flurry crit that round.

    With Improved Crit the unarmed strike threatens on a 19-20. With Improved Crit, one of the weapons above threaten on a 15-20.

    The fact that Pummelling Style allows one confirmation roll if you get any threats to make the whole attack a critical his is awesome, but I would need to crunch all the numbers to be sure if it sways the odds THAT much.

    Scarab Sages

    The more attacks you have, the more likely you are to crit. If you have 7-9 attacks and Improved crit, I'm pretty sure you have a a 30-40% to threaten a critical on a flurry. Since it then one roll to confirm on all attacks, it's pretty huge. It's like in 3.0 when keen and improved crit stacked huge.


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    I heard it a little but I'm surprised more people didn't mention Inquisitor. I played a Monk (Sensei) 2/Inquisitor 9 in PFS and she was great (well, she was sort of meh until level 7, but after that she was great). Her 28 Wisdom plus Extended Bane meant she was basically using bane on every attack. That plus Spell Bane made spells like hold person still a valid option for her at level 11 with a will DC of 23. Forget MAD when you're a sensei; all her other stats were like 10 or 12.

    Although I basically agree that Monks are best for 1-5 levels of dip, I don't think they're useless as a single class, and especially not (as has been suggested) when they have MoMS. I had an extremely successful PFS career as a MoMS 8/Duelist 3 with panther, snake and crane styles. She inflicted decent damage and was impossible to kill. I took 0 damage while playing her in Waking Rune on hard mode. Of course, Crane has been nerfed since those days, but she's still pretty unkillable.

    Speaking of which, it's a complete myth that you need armor to get the best ACs. I made a level 4 halfling Monk/Slayer with an AC that was around 32. My Monk/Fighter/Magus is already a decent tank, and will grow into a great one. Getting AC from Dex, Int and Wisdom is always nice.

    My dhampir Monk/Witch is mostly for fun, but it's still nice to charge through difficult terrain and allies and kick someone for 6d6+6 damage while also delivering a Punishing Kick, an evil eye hex and a frostbite spell. Her best attack definitely does not require her to stand still.

    Edit: And yes, she was intentionally contrived to be a Witch doing 6d6+6 damage.


    Imbicatus wrote:
    The more attacks you have, the more likely you are to crit. If you have 7-9 attacks and Improved crit, I'm pretty sure you have a a 30-40% to threaten a critical on a flurry. Since it then one roll to confirm on all attacks, it's pretty huge. It's like in 3.0 when keen and improved crit stacked huge.

    That about the same odds for a critical on a crit-fishing weapon. However, you have to confirm it, and the other martial classes' advantage to hit comes in their favour here - they are more likely to get confirmation on a critical hit than the monk to confirm the critical. Also, Pummelling Style is not restricted to monks only - any class choosing to fight unarmed can take it. The Brawler, for example, as well as the Unarmed Fighter archetype, etc.

    Scarab Sages

    True, but the brawler and unarmed fighter will not have as many attacks as the monk usually, as the monk has flurry+ki. Brawler doesn't have any to hit bonus over a monk as pummeling style makes the monk effectively a full BAB class all the time except for AoOs. Fighter does have a to hit advantage from weapon training, but they need to take TWF feats and double slice to keep up off hand damage, and they are dealing with a 1d3 damage die.

    If you are looking at the big picture of all unarmed users, I would say the sohei gets the most out of it. They have a total of +7 to hit and damage from weapon training, gloves of dueling, and brawling armor.


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    Guys instead of just being full of rage about monk, can we just assume a MoMs monk? They can wear armor just fine and only give up their AC bonus to do so.... yup you can still go into monkey, mantis, or crane with full plate

    Though hungry ghost monk works well with Magus

    MoMs monk 2 or 3 work well with ranger, they allow you to have two more bonus feats, and some combat viability... If you play as a switch hitter you're getting yourself Improved Unarmed Strike... which is great if you're an archer.. who needs quickdraw when you have..... *Drumroll* KICKDRAW! *Symbol*

    Scarab Sages

    Master of Many styles has a lot of problems, and needs to be completely re-written. It's far too weak as a single class monk, and it's far too powerful as a two level dip for anything else.

    I've argued for it being banned from PFS, and there have been hinted changes coming to the archetype.

    As it is, while it is undeniably a very potent dip for any martial class, I personally will never use the MoMS in any character.


    if you don't mind Dabbler, I'm gonna start addressing thing 1 item per post. The posts are getting out of hand in size.

    Dabbler wrote:

    The point is, he has the option of using a bow. And as for missing because he didn't make Dex his top priority, he can easily make Bows his second choice on weapon training and rack up some decent (not optimal, but decent) to hit chance with it. This is especially true of a TWFer fighter because he has the dexterity to make it work (better AC means he can drop his Con to get that Dex).

    If you are going to invoke MAD, the monk has it far worse trying to use a missile weapon because he has to split his points over four stats rather than three, so the monk trying to use a secondary missile weapon could well be worse at it than the fighter...

    since NO other form of ranged weapon is plausible for you other than bows (i/e thrown, crossbow, ect)... 1 feat, archetype, level dip, ect will get a monk a bow to use.

    quick comparison:

    longbow: 1d8 - 100'
    crossbow, light: 1d8 - 80' (19-29 crit)
    crossbow, heavy: 1d10 - 120' (19-20 crit)

    vanilla monks are proficient with crossbows... so... why again are bows required to have an effective ranged attack?

    you're comparing a dex TWF to monk. Any reason why we can't compare that to a dex monk? where's the MAD in the monk, that the fighter doesn't also see?


    gossamar4 wrote:

    if you don't mind Dabbler, I'm gonna start addressing thing 1 item per post. The posts are getting out of hand in size.

    Dabbler wrote:

    The point is, he has the option of using a bow. And as for missing because he didn't make Dex his top priority, he can easily make Bows his second choice on weapon training and rack up some decent (not optimal, but decent) to hit chance with it. This is especially true of a TWFer fighter because he has the dexterity to make it work (better AC means he can drop his Con to get that Dex).

    If you are going to invoke MAD, the monk has it far worse trying to use a missile weapon because he has to split his points over four stats rather than three, so the monk trying to use a secondary missile weapon could well be worse at it than the fighter...

    since NO other form of ranged weapon is plausible for you other than bows (i/e thrown, crossbow, ect)... 1 feat, archetype, level dip, ect will get a monk a bow to use.

    quick comparison:

    longbow: 1d8 - 100'
    crossbow, light: 1d8 - 80' (19-29 crit)
    crossbow, heavy: 1d10 - 120' (19-20 crit)

    vanilla monks are proficient with crossbows... so... why again are bows required to have an effective ranged attack?

    you're comparing a dex TWF to monk. Any reason why we can't compare that to a dex monk? where's the MAD in the monk, that the fighter doesn't also see?

    I've been trying really really hard to make a viable double crossbow build myself

    Turns out vitalstrike is ok for it... but it's more feat insensive than any firearm build i've ever used.

    Back on topic.... Eliminating FoB with monk through an archetype is best Unless FoB can be used with TWF i don't really see a point in keeping it.


    Imbicatus wrote:
    Let's not forget, an unnamed monk with improved crit and pummeling style will crit as often as a scimitar/rapier/falchion user. The only difference is when they crit, all of their attacks in the flurry crit that round.

    I should note with quiggong at level 14 you can pickup blood crow strike and at 15 you can pick up quicken spell like ability which allows you the most DPR of any PC since you have 2 full attacks with something like an 80% chance to crit at least once each round.

    The monk has been improved a ton since it's release.


    Imbicatus wrote:

    Master of Many styles has a lot of problems, and needs to be completely re-written. It's far too weak as a single class monk, and it's far too powerful as a two level dip for anything else.

    I've argued for it being banned from PFS, and there have been hinted changes coming to the archetype.

    As it is, while it is undeniably a very potent dip for any martial class, I personally will never use the MoMS in any character.

    Funny, I have a few characters with Monk dips and none of them have MoMs. I have two characters with MoMs, and both of them have 8 levels of it. Maybe I missed the memo, and I'm sure it must be discussed elsewhere, but what are the most egregious things you can do by MoMs dipping other martial characters?

    Edit: For me, MoMs is all about getting the three styles. That's when it gets really fun (not speaking to optimization here, just what's more interesting to play). Oh, and actually I guess one of my builds does dip MoMs, but it still dips three levels, and I do it to get Kirin and Archon style, so...not exactly an optimization bonanza going on there.


    Undone wrote:
    Imbicatus wrote:
    Let's not forget, an unnamed monk with improved crit and pummeling style will crit as often as a scimitar/rapier/falchion user. The only difference is when they crit, all of their attacks in the flurry crit that round.

    I should note with quiggong at level 14 you can pickup blood crow strike and at 15 you can pick up quicken spell like ability which allows you the most DPR of any PC since you have 2 full attacks with something like an 80% chance to crit at least once each round.

    The monk has been improved a ton since it's release.

    Monk has improved a lot, but you are mistaken in your example. Monk can't get Quicken SLA for Blood Crow Strike until 17th level, barring retraining rules or perhaps the use of items that could increase effective caster level. To qualify for Quicken SLA for a 4th level spell you need have caster level 16, a level where you don't get a feat, so 17 is the earliest it could happen.

    As a side note, that's one of the things I HATE about quingong monk; the level requirements for abilities does not line up at all with the levels that the monk can actually pick abilities and there is no feat to get more. Yay, technically being able to pick from the level 8 list at level 8 but not actually being able to pick up an ability until level 11!

    Scarab Sages

    Erick Wilson wrote:
    Imbicatus wrote:

    Master of Many styles has a lot of problems, and needs to be completely re-written. It's far too weak as a single class monk, and it's far too powerful as a two level dip for anything else.

    I've argued for it being banned from PFS, and there have been hinted changes coming to the archetype.

    As it is, while it is undeniably a very potent dip for any martial class, I personally will never use the MoMS in any character.

    Funny, I have a few characters with Monk dips and none of them have MoMs. I have two characters with MoMs, and both of them have 8 levels of it. Maybe I missed the memo, and I'm sure it must be discussed elsewhere, but what are the most egregious things you can do by MoMs dipping other martial characters?

    Edit: For me, MoMs is all about getting the three styles. That's when it gets really fun (not speaking to optimization here, just what's more interesting to play). Oh, and actually I guess one of my builds does dip MoMs, but it still dips three levels, and I do it to get Kirin and Archon style, so...not exactly an optimization bonanza going on there.

    The biggest issue is being able to completely master a style at level 2.

    I'll use the classic example of pre-nerf crane wing (and this is the reason it was nerfed). At first level, a human monk qualifies for crane style as a normal feat, being able to take dodge as the human bonus feat and having IUS as a monk bonus. A MoMS can ignore prerequisites and take Crane Wing as the bonus feat, meaing they are immune to every single attack melee at level one, which is normally something that requires level 5+ to take. Then at second level, they can take crane riposte to counter attack when attacked.

    This is incredibly powerful for a low level character, but completely inline for a mid level character.

    The current option is to grab pummeling style as the bonus first level feat, pummeling charge as the bonus 2nd level feat, and then take the rest of your levels in Sacred Fist warpriest to be a better monk than a monk in all ways.


    that they assassinated crane wing because of something largely unrelated to it (it was fairly balanced at it's intended level, MoMS just bypassed that), and because PFS cannot into creative encounter design, is something i still see as staggeringly dumb on paizo's part.

    but that's neither here nor there.


    Just multiclass as a Psychic with the Self Perfection Discipline, then choose the AC bonus for your first Phernic Focus, that way as long as you are not wearing any armor you gain an AC bonus equal to your Wis modifier, which we all know is good for a monk. Next Psychic's can cast any spell they know at any time, which is great because they can cast an infinite number of 0 level spells like telekinetic projectile, a spell that deals damage. Additionally Psychic's do not need to speak, move their hands, or use materials for spells, they only need to provide thought components, which means your monk can even cast spells while bound and gagged.

    Scarab Sages

    Castle Blades wrote:
    Just multiclass as a Psychic with the Self Perfection Discipline, then choose the AC bonus for your first Phernic Focus, that way as long as you are not wearing any armor you gain an AC bonus equal to your Wis modifier, which we all know is good for a monk. Next Psychic's can cast any spell they know at any time, which is great because they can cast an infinite number of 0 level spells like telekinetic projectile, a spell that deals damage. Additionally Psychic's do not need to speak, move their hands, or use materials for spells, they only need to provide thought components, which means your monk can even cast spells while bound and gagged.

    The Self-perfection ac bonus will not stack with the monk ac bonus.

    Second Seekers (Ehu Hadif)

    TheThousandfold wrote:
    Since Monks are MAD already, I was curious if anyone has used any dips into other classes to shore up their utility outside of combat. Are there any archetypes that help with this?

    Yes actually, multiclass between Rogue (knife master archtype) and Monk (Master of the open hand archtype)

    Very simply put once you have +3 BAB you are a God.

    What you do is this:

    For your feats, take the Sap Adept feat tree. Enchant your dagger to do nonlethal damage.and then take Catch off guard feat.

    So basically, your flurrying now with knives, and each attack adds double your sneak attack level worth of dice, and they are d8s instead of d6s.

    So at 4th level overall (3 monk 1 rogue) your attack does, 1d6 +2d8, +str, +2 (sap adept).

    And then your d6s for your knives will eventually increase to other dice sizes. And you continue to add more sneak attack.

    And then with the catch off guard feat, basically every single attack you make is a sneak.

    Because all weapons are considered improvised for you, and that means catch off guard triggers.

    Second Seekers (Ehu Hadif)

    JonHeimerTheOne wrote:
    TheThousandfold wrote:
    Since Monks are MAD already, I was curious if anyone has used any dips into other classes to shore up their utility outside of combat. Are there any archetypes that help with this?

    Yes actually, multiclass between Rogue (knife master archtype) and Monk (Master of the open hand archtype)

    Very simply put once you have +3 BAB you are a God.

    What you do is this:

    For your feats, take the Sap Adept feat tree. Enchant your dagger to do nonlethal damage.and then take Catch off guard feat.

    So basically, your flurrying now with knives, and each attack adds double your sneak attack level worth of dice, and they are d8s instead of d6s.

    So at 4th level overall (3 monk 1 rogue) your attack does, 1d6 +2d8, +str, +2 (sap adept).

    And then your d6s for your knives will eventually increase to other dice sizes. And you continue to add more sneak attack.

    And then with the catch off guard feat, basically every single attack you make is a sneak.

    Because all weapons are considered improvised for you, and that means catch off guard triggers.

    I forgot to mention that the attack is per hit with the monk. So at 3rd level that's actually 3d6, 6d8, str, +6.

    Sovereign Court

    JonHeimerTheOne wrote:
    Yes actually, multiclass between Rogue (knife master archtype) and Monk (Master of the openempty hand archetype)

    I don't think these elements work together how you think they do.

    The Monk of the Empty Hand is treating the dagger as an improvised light hammer, so I don't see how you are getting the Knife Master d8 sneak attack. If you treat it as a dagger, you can't flurry with it anymore since Empty Hand can only flurry with unarmed and improvised weapons and it no longer does bludgeoning damage so Sap Adept/Master no longer applies.
    JonHeimerTheOne wrote:
    I forgot to mention that the attack is per hit with the monk. So at 3rd4th level that's actually 3d6, 6d8, str(x3), +6.

    You can't TWF (and thats other feat tree) and Flurry at the same time, I don't see how you are getting 3 attacks. Sap Master (the doubling of SA dice) requires Sneak Attack +3d6, so at least level 5 (pure rogue, or with Accomplished Sneak Attacker). At best at level 5 you either treat it as a dagger and so can't flurry and its not a bludgeoning weapon, so a single attack at 1d4 +3d8 +0(Sap Adept) +Str. Or treat it as an improvised light hammer and get 2 attacks at 1d4 + 6d4 +6 +Str. However, you are at least 4 feats in at this point (Catch Off-Guard, Sap Adept, Sap Master, Accomplished Sneak Attacker) and +2(cost) weapon enchant. Meanwhile a 2h bruiser will probably be throwing similar numbers anyway, just more static vs dice.

    Catch Off-Guard makes only unarmed opponents flatfooted to your attacks, which is very unlikely to happen in most combats. Natural attacks count as armed, so basically this only works against Wizards, and all Wizards should at least spend 5 gp on a spiked gauntlet to threaten and flank in a pinch, even if they aren't proficient. Considering that enabling your rogue buddy to flank the enemy in your face will get them out of your face faster, its 5gp well spent.

    Drop the Knifemaster, its actively harmful to the build.

    Dark Archive

    Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

    Since we're practicing threadnomancy...a much better add-in for the Monk is the Elemental Ascetic archetype of the kineticist. By just taking the first two levels of Kineticist, you permanently add 1d6 of a selected energy type to every single unarmed attack you ever make, without significantly affecting your progress as a monk (i.e. your AC bonus, flurry, and unarmed damage are at full monk level, although other abilities are 2 levels behind). At low levels, now not only are you typically attacking twice as often as everyone else, you're also typically rolling twice as many damage dice as anyone else. As an added bonus, your elemental damage is unaffected by DR (although it can be nullified fairly easily by resistances and immunities). As a bonus, you get the basic utility wild talent.


    YogoZuno wrote:
    By just taking the first two levels of Kineticist, you permanently add 1d6 of a selected energy type to every single unarmed attack you ever make, without significantly affecting your progress as a monk (i.e. your AC bonus, flurry, and unarmed damage are at full monk level, although other abilities are 2 levels behind).

    First, the only thing you're advancing is the AC bonus, and second, losing two levels is huge, especially for unMonk. Style Strikes, especially Flying Kick range, and Ki Powers are a pretty big deal, sometimes even bonus feats (e.g. if you have some method to reliably trigger Medusa's Wrath).


    One level of Bloodrager is a pretty big combat boost. While it requires taking the Extra Rage feat, it's rage without the lawful requirement.

    An Urban Id Bloodrager (Dedication) would give you Skill Focus, Iron Will, and a size increase for your dmg dice. Since you can now also use the Furious enchantment, it's basically a +3/+3 bonus to Attack and Damage, rising to +5/+5 if your opponent was the last to attack you.


    eakratz wrote:

    In the last few years, in our group someone always seems to be playing a monk that dips, or a dip of one or two levels of monk.

    We have had cleric dip monk, monk dip cleric, sorcerer dip monk, half monk half fighter, barbarian monk, zen archer.

    Currently, I'm playing a slayer with two levels of MoMS using Grasping and Snapping Turtle style. Recently the build finally came "online" and he was able to using snapping turtle clutch to one handed defenestrate an enemy. He has also been able to pin and utilize sneak attack (flavored as beating an opponents head into the wall) due to losing their dex while pinned. It is a fun character to play.

    I was just wanting to say this is perhaps the first time I have ever seen someone use the term “defenestrate” and I love it xD

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