Monks...are there any good multi-class options?


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Since Monks are MAD already, I was curious if anyone has used any dips into other classes to shore up their utility outside of combat. Are there any archetypes that help with this?

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Rogue would add skills and sneak attack, as would ninja.


It's not the MAD that's the issue for most, it's the lack of armour.
As such, spellcasters are usually an acceptable multiclass option, and usually Wisdom based casters at that.
It's the weird combination of those two that causes issue. Most Wisdom based casters have medium armour as an expectation. (clerics, rangers, druids).
Although, there are archetypes that help to relieve this problem.
Personally, I would suggest a cleric as a multiclass option for monk. You can provide your own healing and there are some domains and spells that are quite useful, though the trick is to know when to cast and when to go in for melee.


Im having a ton of fun with a Sohei/Empyral Sorc./Eldrich Knight right now. Pumped wis and a guided weapon. GG


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Cleric multiclassing can open up Crusader's flurry, which would allow flurry of blows with a non-monk weapon. This opens up a variety of unusual options. How about a Cleric of Abadar 1/Monk ? with crusader's flurry, weapon focus (light crossbow) and rapid reload doing a flurry with a crossbow? How about a Calistrian doing a flurry at 15 feet away with a whip? Scimitar combined with Dervish Dance of course leads to a natural synergy between the free hand (ready to unarmed-strike) and the flashing blade. Shelyn, Fumeiyoshi, Tsukiyo, and a handful of other minor powers have polearms as their favored weapon, allowing flurry at 10 feet (with unarmed strike always ready to hit enemies who come closer).

(I know that there was an errata saying that you can't use a single weapon to flurry, but it's been retracted. Until flurry of blows gets errata'd again, I believe this works.)


I am playing a Zen archer monk and synthesist summoner. My AC is around 42 and touch AC is in 30's. He can fly and is immune to fire dmg. He can only cast low level spells due to marginal charisma


some, not necessarily optimal though some interesting dips/combos i like are

Martial Artist and Brawler, basically you take 3 levels of brawler for close combatant, and the 2 bonus feats.

monk/sorcerer/dragon disciple, there is a 3.5 feat to help this out, but you are better off being a self buffing melee combatant who uses his few monk levels to shore up AC and saving throws and 2hands a longspear like every other dragon disciple. the difference is you don't need a spiked gauntlet. forget flurry, you are a freaking gish. dragon disciple's strength boost augments your damage enough to favor this route. this route is more multiple attribute dependent at first. but the ability boosts from dragon disciple stack nicely with eldritch heritage for abyssal or orc bloodlines and share a portion of the burden. a good race choice is a human, or an angelkin aasimaar. it's going to be difficult to explain how you have an angel, a demon, and a dragon on your family tree. so be prepared for that.

if 3.5 material is allowed

monk/sorcerer/enlightened fist with the feat, or monk/cleric/sacred fist. self buffing monk. though feat taxed, enlightened fist is the cooler route. enlightened fist also opens up inherent bonuses to strength in decent quantity through eldritch heritage


Any opinions on Champion of Irori? It's sort of related to this topic.


Druid multiclass is my preferred option, wildshape is fantastic for monks.

-str boost from wildshape
-free natural ac
-increased size increases unarmed strike damage
-spells that affect natural weapons also affect unarmed strike (strong jaw for 2 size increases to unarmed strike damage)
-wis for spells, AC, saves, e.t.c.

prototype00


Monks can be combined with almost any other class for good effects.

Just to mention it here: It's easily the other way around as well. Monks are great dips for other classes. You gain
- +2 to all saves -> like great fortitude, iron will and lightning reflexes
- Stunning fist (depending on the archetype)
- Improved unarmed strike with increased damage and the option to do nonlethal damage
- 4 skill points and different class skills
And a lot of the abilities can be used even when wearing armor (like the saves, unarmed strikes etc.).
Divine casters (or empyreal sorcerer) particularly benefit from that: You are only in your divine ceremonial garb when you are attacked by those assassins? Well, you got your monk AC bonus and can fight them barehanded - nice surprise! :-)

To go more in the direction of the OP's question:
- 2 levels of Empyreal sorcerer with monk
- divine caster dip for increased options
- fighters etc. for more choices of weapon and the option of wearing armor, e.g. to disguise, trapfinding and martial weapons in the case of Ranger etc.
- 5 levels martial artist, rest barbarian -> immune to fatigue
- Monk, boar style (or another that grants piercing damage) and duelist
- Samurai/Sensei/Battle Herald - no loss of caster level, "nonmagical"
- Sohei/Empyreal Sorcerer/eldritch knight
etc. :-)


For any full BAB class with mithral medium armor a two level dip in monk is great: gain two bonus feats, lethal unarmed damage, great saves and evasion. It only costs 1 point of BAB, 1 fighter feat and off course a delayed progression in your primary class abilites.

Sczarni

I'd like to see a Monk/Gunslinger combo. Both need Wisdom, the Gunslinger's BAB would help shore up the monk's Flurry, I believe the Monk AC bonuses stack with the Gunslinger's Nimble ability, and you have solid options in melee and in range without having to put away your firearm.

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EarthDragon wrote:
For any full BAB class with mithral medium armor a two level dip in monk is great: gain two bonus feats, lethal unarmed damage, great saves and evasion. It only costs 1 point of BAB, 1 fighter feat and off course a delayed progression in your primary class abilites.

If you go three levels monk, you can take Monastic Legacy feat (from Ultimate Combat) and then you can also increase your unarmed damage dice further. Whether you think it's worth it depends on what you want out of it.

I need to try some test builds but I've been figuring lately that if you really want a powerful unarmed combatant, with no or little armor, go 1-3 levels monk and then the rest of the way fighter, with weapon spec in unarmed combat and weapon training in close. Get some combat maneuvers on top of stuff to boost unarmed combat and you should be a pretty cool punchy warrior.

Alternately go the rest of the way ranger instead of fighter if you want to be more of a skilled unarmed stealth/scout with combat bonuses based on favored enemy instead, and take the TWF tree. Yes, the TWF tree is to a degree redundant with flurry, but all flurry is is limited TWF pretty much, and with real TWF you can wear armor (if you want to forgo Wis bonus to AC, which at higher levels you might get a better AC just wearing armor anyway) and via the Ranger bonus feats can get stuff like TW Defense and TW Rend, which you can't with flurry.

With UE out, if you do forgo AC bonus, flurry, and fast movement for armor, you can take light armor with the brawling quality as well for more unarmed oomph in either of these multiclass options.

Silver Crusade

Dip 5 into inquisitor and get your wisdom mod to Initiative and Bane fists?


For some fun try out a one level dip into monk with a Kensai. Adding both your wisdom and your intelligence to AC is great as is being able to add in Crane style feats.


Kensai + monk seems like a very short trip to the land of super MAD to me... INT is one of the two Attributes (along with CHA) that really don't mean much to monk....

Scarab Sages

If you want arcane spells, empyreal (WIS-based) sorcerer also works for a monk. Even with only one level of sorcerer, you gain access to a few useful spells and the ability to use wizard/sorcerer magic items without UMD checks.


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If Psionic material is allowed, a psychic warrior and/or several of the prestige classes can work fine. A monk/psychic fist can be brutal. It's all on the SRD site, btw.


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Generally I find my test builds of multiclass with monk works better when monk is the dipping class.


Empyreal Sorcerer seems like a good fit since it casts spell off WIS instead of CHA. I'm looking forward to combining it with Zen Archer Monk since it fires a bow with WIS instead of DEX.

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Superscriber

Never got to play the character, but I made a really nice looking Staff Magus with a 2-level dip of Flowing Monk.


I myself had an amazing run with a kensai-magus/martial artist-monk build. Respectable AC to any heavy fighter, and a wicked temple sword buffed up with more magic.


Even a vivisectionist can work out nice I guess.
You only need Int 11 for a 1 level dip to use the extracts for selfbuffing, the mutagen inceases the melee power and the sneak attack is just some nice addon.

Another possible dip for a Monk (if it's a dwarf) is stonelord. You only need a cha of 10 to make it worth (below 10 and you don't get lay on hands)


TheThousandfold wrote:
Since Monks are MAD already, I was curious if anyone has used any dips into other classes to shore up their utility outside of combat. Are there any archetypes that help with this?

Monk/rogue has some nice synergy for lots of scouting skills, and in combat can be nice if you can get in a flanking flurry.

Monk/cleric has some opportunities for Guided Hand, you can hinge the whole class off Wisdom. Empyral sorcerer can be quite neat with it.

Monk/paladin can be effective if you have the charisma to pull it off, smite fixes many problems with the monk's unarmed strike, and divine weapon bond could boost the enhancement on your unarmed strike to something actually reasonable.

Mostly, though, monk is the dip class that other classes use to snatch some of that classes better features. Any class contemplating unarmed combat just needs two levels of Master of Many Styles to make them better monks than monks.


Martial Artist monks have no alignment restrictions and get immunity to fatigue at level 5 so a 1-2 level dip in barbarian is great for them.

Sczarni

prototype00 wrote:

Druid multiclass is my preferred option, wildshape is fantastic for monks.

-str boost from wildshape
-free natural ac
-increased size increases unarmed strike damage
-spells that affect natural weapons also affect unarmed strike (strong jaw for 2 size increases to unarmed strike damage)
-wis for spells, AC, saves, e.t.c.

prototype00

It truly boosts a monks abilities by a mile - Moreso than any other class probably could IMO.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

Monk/fighter is good for more feats and HP without losing BAB.


prototype00 wrote:
-spells that affect natural weapons also affect unarmed strike (strong jaw for 2 size increases to unarmed strike damage)

I agree with everything you said but this. Unarmed Strike is not a natural weapon, and is therefore not affected by Strong Jaw.

Strong Jaw:
PRD wrote:

Strong Jaw

School transmutation; Level druid 4, ranger 3
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S
Range touch
Target creature touched
Duration 1 minute/level
Saving Throw Fortitude negates (harmless); Spell Resistance yes (harmless)

Laying a hand upon an allied creature's jaw, claws, tentacles, or other natural weapons, you enhance the power of that creature's natural attacks. Each natural attack that creature makes deals damage as if the creature were two sizes larger than it actually is. If the creature is already Gargantuan or Colossal-sized, double the amount of damage dealt by each of its natural attacks instead. This spell does not actually change the creature's size; all of its statistics except the amount of damage dealt by its natural attacks remain unchanged.

Were this the case, unarmed strikes would use primary and secondary weapon rules, and Magic Fang would have no reason to specify that it affects Unarmed Strikes.

Magic Fang:
PRD wrote:

Magic Fang

School transmutation; Level druid 1, ranger 1
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, DF
Range touch
Target living creature touched
Duration 1 min./level
Saving Throw Will negates (harmless); Spell Resistance yes (harmless)

Magic fang gives one natural weapon or unarmed strike of the subject a +1 enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls. The spell can affect a slam attack, fist, bite, or other natural weapon. The spell does not change an unarmed strike's damage from nonlethal damage to lethal damage.

Magic fang can be made permanent with a permanency spell.

I'd be happily proven wrong however, as this sounds like a fantastic combo, if not a little mean.

Sczarni

Mortalis wrote:
prototype00 wrote:
-spells that affect natural weapons also affect unarmed strike (strong jaw for 2 size increases to unarmed strike damage)

I agree with everything you said but this. Unarmed Strike is not a natural weapon, and is therefore not affected by Strong Jaw.

** spoiler omitted **

Were this the case, unarmed strikes would use primary and secondary weapon rules, and Magic Fang would have no reason to specify that it affects Unarmed Strikes.

** spoiler omitted **

I'd be happily proven wrong however, as this sounds like a fantastic...

That has been argued a LOT.

"A monk's unarmed strike is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons."

http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/classes/monk.html#_monk

It in fact does count for the effects of Strong Jaw.


Kazumetsa Raijin wrote:

That has been argued a LOT.

"A monk's unarmed strike is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons."

http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/classes/monk.html#_monk

It in fact does count for the effects of Strong Jaw.

Huh... Oh well; like I said, happy to be proven wrong. Guess I'm off to go make a monk/druid then.

Although now I can't help but wonder why Magic Fang would specify Unarmed Strike, as that could only lead to confusion. Not contesting it further, just verbalising stuff.

Anyway, thanks for the assist. :)

Sczarni

Np Dudicus!! Go kick some ass with your build and irritate your DM/GM to no end >:D


Xexyz wrote:
Martial Artist monks have no alignment restrictions and get immunity to fatigue at level 5 so a 1-2 level dip in barbarian is great for them.

Nah, you go monk (martial artist) 5/barbarian {everything else}


Monk works great with the synthesist. You don't have to worry about being MAD since the Eidolon gets a set ability scores and those increase as you level. The Eidolon gets a max of six attacks, which you can flurry into and get 7 or more. The synthesist takes care of your HP problem, since it gets a bunch of temp hp. You also get a big AC bonus, and can further increase your AC with evolutions.

No longer will ranged enemies hurt you, since you can fly up to them and punch them.

My suggestion is going Kata Master 4/Synthesist 16, taking Monastic legacy ASAP


I did sorcerer monk dragon disciple. Reasonably worked. Abused bloodlines to get stupid strong and self buffed so was pretty competent


In the last few years, in our group someone always seems to be playing a monk that dips, or a dip of one or two levels of monk.

We have had cleric dip monk, monk dip cleric, sorcerer dip monk, half monk half fighter, barbarian monk, zen archer.

Currently, I'm playing a slayer with two levels of MoMS using Grasping and Snapping Turtle style. Recently the build finally came "online" and he was able to using snapping turtle clutch to one handed defenestrate an enemy. He has also been able to pin and utilize sneak attack (flavored as beating an opponents head into the wall) due to losing their dex while pinned. It is a fun character to play.


crusader cleric opens some good weapon options (hello katana) and paves the way for guided hand/crusader's flurry.

inquisitor's got lots of wis-centric options like stern gaze and such.

some monk archetypes like sensei and zen archer make you more reliant on wis as well.

Scarab Sages

Dabbler wrote:
Xexyz wrote:
Martial Artist monks have no alignment restrictions and get immunity to fatigue at level 5 so a 1-2 level dip in barbarian is great for them.
Nah, you go monk (martial artist) 5/barbarian {everything else}

The better option is barbarian 8/oracle 1/barbarian everything else.

And I'm saying this as the player of a single class LN martial artist.


The better option is barbarian everything with a Cord of Stubborn Resolve if you can put multiple enchantments on it, and Heart of the Fields and Allnight if you can't.


Best I think is to go Monk/Paladin/ Champion of irori


Inquisitors for cunnin initiative and cvonversion/heresy inquisitions are wonderful for monks. Clerics for crusader flurry, their domain, guided hand feat, and more is fantastic to the point of being near overpowered among martials. Synthesist is just sick. Dragon disciple can be nice for the +4 strength. Possibilities are many. Monk doesn't suck as bad as its rep.


Probably better for dipping than proper multiclassing since very little if any of the class features actually stack but a Sacred Fist/Monk is a fun idea. Take Sacred Fist/MoMS if you want want to get really crazy. Dragon Style and Pummeling Style active at the same time, with a full flurry and a Warpriest's buffs. Managing swift actions will be a bit of an effort but it should be a fun time.

Shadow Lodge

I play a lot of characters with some monk levels. For wrath of the righteous I'm playing a monk/barbarian. For PFS I have a monk/bard/gunslinger, a monk/ranger/gunslinger/horizon walker, a fighter/monk/hunter/swashbuckler/gunslinger/paladin, and a tetori monk (my only monk I haven't multi-classed). Hmm, writing that out I noticed I have several gunslinger dips too (but only one of those actually uses a gun).
Monk dips give a good buff to defenses and add fun options to otherwise bland martial builds. The style feats are great, there really should be style feats for non-monks too. 2 levels gets you evasion, stunning fist, unarmed strike, 2 bonus feats, 3 to all saves... 4 levels gets you a ki pool too for some extra points to spend on things. It's nice to have options besides I full attack again. I also like monk dipping just cause I think all martial characters should be able to put up their dukes and throw down in a bar fight without provoking aos.

I think monk is a great dipping class, not that great of a single class. Most of it's problems don't stem from the class itself per say, but rather from adventure design. Monks are fine in society play, cause you get to choose all your gear. For home games, the paladin is running around with some named full plate and an artifact longsword, the rogue's got celestial chainmail and a luckblade, the sorcerer has a staff of illusion, a maximize rod, and is building a flesh golem with the manual they just found... and the monk has bracers of armor +3 and is cheering cause he just found an amulet of mighty fists +2 (he's level 12).


Blackfell wrote:

Kensai + monk seems like a very short trip to the land of super MAD to me... INT is one of the two Attributes (along with CHA) that really don't mean much to monk....

Yes, but no. A Kensai/ Monk with Dervish Dancing will need Dex>Int>Con>Wis>Str>Cha. He don't need that much Wisdom: a +1 is quite enough to get a little bit of armor, great save and, with master of many style, some great feat (Crane Style is, even nerfed, a good feat for suvivability).

Or an other build quite funny: Sensei/ Kensai. You may go with Wis=Int>Str>Con>Dex>Cha. You then get Inspire Courage to boost your damage and your attack, great save, good AC...

So I don't think it's that MAD as you think. Sur it's not a Scarred Witch Doctor, but it quite playable and can be quite good.


Monk is one of the BEST 5 class levels in game to pair off with something.

Monk 5+ Monk's Robe + Monastic Legacy (Still Mind Required) = Full Unarmed Progression on any class in the game.


Monk's Robes are slightly more effective if you go to level seven since it's one of the few thresholds that nets you a two tier gain in both attack dice and AC bonus.


I always reccomend the Conversion Inquisition for Cleric/Inquisitor dips - makes the monk a little less MAD

Ninja is a great 2 level dip if you want to run your Ki off CHA

Something not many concider is that you are allowed to ditch the WIS to AC, Sohei is even better for this as they can Flurry in armor.

I personally have a armored Samurai-style character that's Sohei 2/Ninja 2/Daring Champion 4 who uses a Blade of Sword Saint


Well there you go!

You have 5 levels of spare to work with anyway, might as well divide as necessary.


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gnoams wrote:
I think monk is a great dipping class, not that great of a single class. Most of it's problems don't stem from the class itself per say, but rather from adventure design.

No, the class is badly designed.


  • You are a melee class, with no decent ranged weapons, but emphasis has to be placed on dexterity because you cannot wear armour. Don't even start me on BAB.
  • You have emphasis on a mental stat (Wisdom), but you can't cast spells.
  • You have emphasis on movement, but your biggest offensive ability forces you to stand still.
  • You have emphasis on unarmed strike, but it's hard to enhance and is in every other way a 2nd rate weapon choice.
  • You have all these ki-powers, but half of them do not work well together and even when they do they cost too much or last only 1 round. Many are not as useful as spells at the same level, some are effectively useless.

As someone once summed it up, the monk has synergy, but it's a negative synergy. It's got lots of nice abilities that just don't work together very well.

gnoams wrote:
Monks are fine in society play, cause you get to choose all your gear. For home games, the paladin is running around with some named full plate and an artifact longsword, the rogue's got celestial chainmail and a luckblade, the sorcerer has a staff of illusion, a maximize rod, and is building a flesh golem with the manual they just found... and the monk has bracers of armor +3 and is cheering cause he just found an amulet of mighty fists +2 (he's level 12).

And society play is at lower level, where the monk's flaws don't show up as badly. I agree, though, adventures are not exactly designed with monks in mind.

Scarab Sages

Monks flaws are entirely fixed by archetypes and pummeling style. Qinggong allows you to replace the lackluster abilities with something good, and pummeling style fixes the problems with unarmed strikes and allows you to actually use you mobility.

All of the classic complaints about the monk are only true when you are talking about the core rule book monk.

Although I'm still looking forward to the unchained monk.


Dabbler wrote:
•You are a melee class, with no decent ranged weapons, but emphasis has to be placed on dexterity because you cannot wear armour. Don't even start me on BAB.

why would a melee class need ranged weapons? What do you consider a decent ranged weapon? Monks get shruiken, crossbows, javelins

Dabble wrote:
•You have emphasis on a mental stat (Wisdom), but you can't cast spells.

wisdom emphasis: aids ki pool, AC, will save, and perception. Fighter (melee) doesn't get those options. Monks have same opportunity as other "non-casters" to UMD. Monks have the Qinggong archtype to offer that option.

Dabbler wrote:
•You have emphasis on movement, but your biggest offensive ability forces you to stand still.

monks' emphasis on movement, helps them get into a more tactically adventagous position. Especially effective at getting past the front line and getting into melee with a "non-melee"/caster enemy. Every class' biggest offesive ability (full attack) forces them to stand still. The movement also helps them get to a full attack position faster, or close the distance and eliminate the need for ranged weapons.

Dabbler wrote:
•You have emphasis on unarmed strike, but it's hard to enhance and is in every other way a 2nd rate weapon choice.

Monks' unarmed strike increases with level, 1d6 at lvl 1 (non-monk unarmed damage is 1d3)and gets to 2d10 at lvl 20 (non-monk unarmed damge at lvl 20 is still 1d3). Likewise, a lvl 1 longsword damage is 1d8... a lvl 20 longsword is still 1d8.

Monks' unarmed strike can do lethal or non-lethal damage (without penalty). at 4th lvl they are treated as magical for overcoming DR (no cost), which would required adding at least a +1 enhacement on a weapon (2000gp min). At 7th lvl, they are considered silver and cold iron (2 properties which are not able to be placed on same weapon normally, again at no cost) silver also has a penalty to damage normally. Not the case with monks. they also get more bonus' and qualities at 10th and 16th.

Hard to enhance? All it takes is a magic item (most common AoMight Fists). no different than purchasing magic weapons. roughly same cost as 2 +1 weapons.

Dabbler wrote:
•You have all these ki-powers, but half of them do not work well together and even when they do they cost too much or last only 1 round. Many are not as useful as spells at the same level, some are effectively useless.

Ki pool replenishes daily (same as spells), and only cost 1 point and a swift action to provide same effects as: haste, expeditious retreat, or mage armor. (only looking at CRB ki powers). not bad bonuses for no cost.

I'm assuming your referring to Qinggong replacement ki powers. Would you say there are some spells that are "effectively useless"? Or even some at each level that are "more powerful" than others? Why would monk's choices of "spells" be any different.

Monk plays differently than other classes, but a fighter is different from a barbarian... cleric... palidan... ect... also. How you play your class' strengths determines it's effectivness.

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