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Creating magical item for the party + small fee on the work = players uprorar?


Advice

2,001 to 2,050 of 2,075 << first < prev | 32 | 33 | 34 | 35 | 36 | 37 | 38 | 39 | 40 | 41 | 42 | next > last >>

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber

Woot, 2000 posts!

Well, as long as a few of them do not get removed.
:)


now that we've hit 2K, we can all move over here, and start all over again XD

It's like a New Game +!


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
Banatine wrote:

now that we've hit 2K, we can all move over here, and start all over again XD

It's like a New Game +!

You are a cruel person Banatine.

Must resist urge to post in that new thread......
Leaves computer for a while, to add a circumstance bonus to the save..

:)


Happy post 2K everyone! See you on the FAQ clarification page!


Mistwalker wrote:

@Gauss, I know, I know, but I don't like to post things that I don't understand and still haven't made the time to wrap my mind around your formula

ROFLMAO you amuse me Mistwalker. Thanks. Seriously though it isnt 'my' formula. It is just basic algebra you learn in high school. For some of us that is pretty far away. However, I had to keep remembering such things since I was going to college just a few years ago. - Gauss


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Woot, 2k.
Grats to everyone involved. We won at message-board-ing!


Mistwalker wrote:
Valandil Ancalime wrote:
Is this a hot button issue or what? I wonder what the record for longest thread is?

Well, a lot of us keep failing our will saves and return to the thread.

:)

I have no idea what the longest thread is, but one of the goals for the last 1000 posts or so is to get to 2000+ posts.

At one time I decided to look around. The longest thread that wasnt a play by post was somewhere around 3500 iirc. I could be misremembering though. - Gauss


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
Gauss wrote:
Mistwalker wrote:

@Gauss, I know, I know, but I don't like to post things that I don't understand and still haven't made the time to wrap my mind around your formula

ROFLMAO you amuse me Mistwalker. Thanks. Seriously though it isnt 'my' formula. It is just basic algebra you learn in high school. For some of us that is pretty far away. However, I had to keep remembering such things since I was going to college just a few years ago. - Gauss

Well, high school was 30 or so years ago for me and for the most part, I haven't had to touch anything besides simply math since.


Mistwalker wrote:
Gauss wrote:
Mistwalker wrote:

@Gauss, I know, I know, but I don't like to post things that I don't understand and still haven't made the time to wrap my mind around your formula

ROFLMAO you amuse me Mistwalker. Thanks. Seriously though it isnt 'my' formula. It is just basic algebra you learn in high school. For some of us that is pretty far away. However, I had to keep remembering such things since I was going to college just a few years ago. - Gauss
Well, high school was 30 or so years ago for me and for the most part, I haven't had to touch anything besides simply math since.

It was about 22years ago for me. But my electronics degree (and half of an electrical engineering degree) was only a few years ago. - Gauss

Shadow Lodge

CommandoDude wrote:


Crafters are metagaming by selling below merchant price. How is the crafter suppose to "know about the rules" that he can't sell above 50% cost?

Accusations of "metagaming" are futile and pointless.

this statement proves to me that you are a troll sir, a bad one at that.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I was wondering if according the FAQ does this mean it mean in a party of 4 where 1 player crafts his entire 62,000 wealth. Does that mean he still have 62,000 in terms of WBL? How about the other players who request the crafter to craft for him, would that player 62,000 have WBL or 124,000?


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
Suzaku wrote:
I was wondering if according the FAQ does this mean it mean in a party of 4 where 1 player crafts his entire 62,000 wealth. Does that mean he still have 62,000 in terms of WBL? How about the other players who request the crafter to craft for him, would that player 62,000 have WBL or 124,000?

The crafter would have a WBL of 62,000 gp.

The non-crafter would have a WBL of 124,000 gp.
Likely meaning that the loot would be less for a while.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Mistwalker wrote:
Suzaku wrote:
I was wondering if according the FAQ does this mean it mean in a party of 4 where 1 player crafts his entire 62,000 wealth. Does that mean he still have 62,000 in terms of WBL? How about the other players who request the crafter to craft for him, would that player 62,000 have WBL or 124,000?

The crafter would have a WBL of 62,000 gp.

The non-crafter would have a WBL of 124,000 gp.
Likely meaning that the loot would be less for a while.

So wouldn't that mean if the crafter doesn't charge, the player would be behind the WBL?


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
Suzaku wrote:
Mistwalker wrote:
Suzaku wrote:
I was wondering if according the FAQ does this mean it mean in a party of 4 where 1 player crafts his entire 62,000 wealth. Does that mean he still have 62,000 in terms of WBL? How about the other players who request the crafter to craft for him, would that player 62,000 have WBL or 124,000?

The crafter would have a WBL of 62,000 gp.

The non-crafter would have a WBL of 124,000 gp.
Likely meaning that the loot would be less for a while.
So wouldn't that mean if the crafter doesn't charge, the player would be behind the WBL?

That is exactly what it means, if the crafter crafts for free for their team mates.

Take a look at the math on the preceeding page, it shows that for a party of 4, a fee of 20% would keep the WBL equal across the board for all the PCs.


Suzaku wrote:
Mistwalker wrote:
Suzaku wrote:
I was wondering if according the FAQ does this mean it mean in a party of 4 where 1 player crafts his entire 62,000 wealth. Does that mean he still have 62,000 in terms of WBL? How about the other players who request the crafter to craft for him, would that player 62,000 have WBL or 124,000?

The crafter would have a WBL of 62,000 gp.

The non-crafter would have a WBL of 124,000 gp.
Likely meaning that the loot would be less for a while.
So wouldn't that mean if the crafter doesn't charge, the player would be behind the WBL?

The simplest solution to the WBL question is for the crafter to charge full market price and then donate the excess to a non-WBL purpose (such as a temple, castle, etc.) Alternately the crafter can charge crafting price and the recipient does the donating. Yes, this is metagaming and yes this is a game. This issue is one with no easy solution that does not require some metagaming or major work on the DMs part. - Gauss


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Here is what you should do!

#1: Charge full price for any magic items you make.

#2: pile up the money you make and cast disintegrate on the money.

#3: everyone is happy.

Silver Crusade

I have a question, as I couldn't immediately find it when digging through a few pages (the idea was mentioned, I just can't find the exact posts) and have a genuine interest...

Is there some proven math that keeps the crafter(s) and the rest of the party in WBL parity, and/or allows a minor but acceptable profit that places a reasonable value on the feat(s) expended to do all this crafting?

The reason I ask is that this is coming up in a party I play in, and I'd like to figure out how to handle this 'right.' The group in question is pretty mature and cooperative, and (probably; I cannot 100% speak for them) willing to accept that the crafters should probably get something for their spending a Feat slot on the party's direct benefit when the crafters really wanted some other feat.

For reference the crafting duties would be split. In a party of 4, 5, or 6 PCs... the crafting would be split between:

- Human Sorcerer handling the Wondrous Items. They do not have enough Feats available to do much more than just Wondrous Items.

- Dwarf Fighter handling the Magic Arms/Armor and similar metalworking (I believe he's using a feat that lets him, at sufficiently high Craft skill ranks, make magic weapons/armor even without spellcasting ability of his own. I don't remember the exact game content, but he pretty clearly showed me it does exist as Paizo legal material).

What should these two be doing in a mature group willing to let them get a demonstrably fair return for their Feat expenditure (but not willing to let them engage in massive profit-mongering; the items are expected to be provided at some discount from full market price), or at the bare minimum keeps them from notably falling behind on Wealth By Level?

I'm just looking for the specific math, no arguments for/against it. We're mature enough to figure out if the math works for our group once we know the numbers, and the major concern would be "making sure nobody is getting notably screwed on the deal."


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
Celestial Pegasus wrote:

I have a question, as I couldn't immediately find it when digging through a few pages (the idea was mentioned, I just can't find the exact posts) and have a genuine interest...

Is there some proven math that keeps the crafter(s) and the rest of the party in WBL parity, and/or allows a minor but acceptable profit that places a reasonable value on the feat(s) expended to do all this crafting?

The math that was quoted is some rough math that I applied some numbers to. I haven't had anyone who read through and understand it find any major errors.

Mistwalker wrote:

SKR’s clarification states that for calculations of Wealth By Level (WBL), the totals for crafter’s crafted items is based on the crafting price, not the retail cost. Everyone else has their WBL calculated using the retail cost.

This does not mean that the crafter get’s double loot/gold/drops/etc..
This does have a major impact on WBL calculations.

10th level party of 4
WBL 62,000 gp

No crafter party
4 characters have a WBL of 62,000 gp

Free crafter party
3 characters have a WBL of 124,000 gp
crafter has a WBL of 62,000 gp
GM either has to add a lot more items for the crafter, or may simply drop the loot for everyone and the crafter falls farther and farther behind.

Fee crafter party 10% fee
3 characters pay the crafter 6,200 gp, leaving them 55,800 gp, which turns into WBL of 111, 600
crafter has 62,000+3*6200= a WBL of 80,600

Fee crafter party 20% fee
3 characters pay the crafter 12,400 gp, leaving them 49,600 gp, which turns into WBL of 99,200
crafter has 62,000+3*12,400 = a WBL of 99,200 gp

So, to me, this means that the easiest way to keep WBL in balance, without the GM having to do anything, is for all crafters to charge a 20% fee. The GM does not have to change drops, create special drops, talk to the group to explain why the crafter is suddenly getting a bonus of xxx gold, etc..

Silver Crusade

Thank you! I'll keep this handy and see how they feel.

Scarab Sages

Wow, 2000 posts! How awesome is that? I'm happy to have been involved from the beginning and hope to see this thread reach its next thousand. That said, there's a story I overheard recently that reminds me of this crafting dilemma. It's a conversation between two good friends:

Rob: Hey Joe, since you have a painting business and I need my kitchen painted, can you give me a quote? I know you already painted several kitchens exactly like mine in the area and I'm confident you can do the job right.
Joe: Sure thing. It'll take me two days to complete. Because you're a friend of mine, I'll only charge you $220.
Rob: Really? I spoke to Tony next door and he said you painted his kitchen for $200.
Joe: So? If you go to ACME Painting Company, they'll charge you $400 for the job.
Rob: Well, yes, I realize that. It's just that you don't know Tony at all and did it for $200. You're charging me $220 even after I beat the snot out of that guy who attacked you in the bar last month.
Joe: I know you did, and I appreciate that. But hey, I was the one who rushed your wife to the hospital when she slashed her foot open and was bleeding all over the place, so we're even. Besides, as I said, I'm only charging you $220, if you go to someone else, they'll charge you $400.
Rob: Yes, I know that, it's just that I also spoke to Jeff, Linda, Marie and Frank. You aren't friends with any of them, either, and you only charged them $200 to paint the exact kind of kitchen I have. Why are you charging me $220?
Joe: Because you're my friend. If you get a quote from someone else, they'll charge you $400.
Rob: Um, yes, you've said that already. I just don't understand why you're charging me more than everyone else.
Joe: I'm not charging you more, I'm giving you a 45% discount.
Rob: Then why did you give Tony, Jeff, Marie, Linda and Frank a 50% discount?
Joe: Look, don't worry about them, my business dealings with other people aren't your concern. You can take my quote for $220 or go to someone else and pay $400.
Rob: How many other people have you charged $220 for painting their kitchen?
Joe: Only Steve.
Rob: Steve? He helped beat the snot out that guy in the bar, too! He also drove to Pittsburgh to pick you up that time you got stranded in the snowstorm. You guys have been friends for years.
Joe: Your point?
Rob: Why do you charge your friends $220 for the same work that you only charge other people $200 for?
Joe: Because I can get away with it. Now stop being a jerk and write a check for $220 so I can get to work.


Obirandiath wrote:
Wow, 2000 posts! How awesome is that? I'm happy to have been involved from the beginning and hope to see this thread reach its next thousand...

From the beginning? Hardly. Your first post was 27th on the thread. Here are my words of wisdom from the fourth post:

Humphrey Boggard wrote:

Our witch has also started crafting, originally wanting to charge 15%. My samurai insists on paying 30%.

I would have another go at discussing this with your fellow PCs in game - IMO a 10% crafting fee is more than reasonable, especially for a follower of Adabar (personally, I would be developing arcane financial instruments like stocks, crafting futures and crafting default swaps). If they don't want to pay 10% then you can come to an arrangement where their character spends an equivalent amount of time doing stuff for you (belt of str +2 = two days of your labor, so they can spend those two days gathering spell components, doing shopping, scrubbing floors in your tower, whatever).

If that fails I would content myself with only crafting to meet my own needs. If this is still causes friction going forward, talk to your GM about retraining the feat to something else.

Now that's a post with all the bells and whistles: it answers the OP's needs in and out of game, proposes the creation of financial instruments and provides an entertaining mental picture of a fighter scrubbing floors in the wizard's tower.

// In another 2K posts I'll quote this post quoting my original post when talking about how great the posts were early on before the thread went all to hell.


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Card Game, Maps, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Obirandiath wrote:

Wow, 2000 posts! How awesome is that? I'm happy to have been involved from the beginning and hope to see this thread reach its next thousand. That said, there's a story I overheard recently that reminds me of this crafting dilemma. It's a conversation between two good friends:

Or he does not paint Jeff, Linda, Marie or Frank's house. or in game terms: does not craft items just to sell then.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
Catprog wrote:
Obirandiath wrote:

Wow, 2000 posts! How awesome is that? I'm happy to have been involved from the beginning and hope to see this thread reach its next thousand. That said, there's a story I overheard recently that reminds me of this crafting dilemma. It's a conversation between two good friends:

Or he does not paint Jeff, Linda, Marie or Frank's house. or in game terms: does not craft items just to sell then.

Which is what the fee crafting crowd has been saying. The crafter does not make items to sell to the NPCs. The crafter makes items when the other PCs request items.


Celestial Pegasus wrote:
The reason I ask is that this is coming up in a party I play in, and I'd like to figure out how to handle this 'right.' The group in question is pretty mature and cooperative, and (probably; I cannot 100% speak for them) willing to accept that the crafters should probably get something for their spending a Feat slot on the party's direct benefit when the crafters really wanted some other feat.

And that is the center of the whole problem and why this has gone on for 2000+ posts. If you believe spending a feat gives them the right to make money off the party or not? There is no 'right' way to handle this. There is only, "how our group handles this without falling apart". Have a group discussion.


Valandil Ancalime wrote:
Celestial Pegasus wrote:
The reason I ask is that this is coming up in a party I play in, and I'd like to figure out how to handle this 'right.' The group in question is pretty mature and cooperative, and (probably; I cannot 100% speak for them) willing to accept that the crafters should probably get something for their spending a Feat slot on the party's direct benefit when the crafters really wanted some other feat.
And that is the center of the whole problem and why this has gone on for 2000+ posts. If you believe spending a feat gives them the right to make money off the party or not? There is no 'right' way to handle this. There is only, "how our group handles this without falling apart". Have a group discussion.

Stop being sensible, you are gonna kill the thread!

this thread is kinda like your crazy old dog that eats the furniture. It makes you mad, but you still don't want to see it die. :)


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
Valandil Ancalime wrote:
Celestial Pegasus wrote:
The reason I ask is that this is coming up in a party I play in, and I'd like to figure out how to handle this 'right.' The group in question is pretty mature and cooperative, and (probably; I cannot 100% speak for them) willing to accept that the crafters should probably get something for their spending a Feat slot on the party's direct benefit when the crafters really wanted some other feat.
And that is the center of the whole problem and why this has gone on for 2000+ posts. If you believe spending a feat gives them the right to make money off the party or not? There is no 'right' way to handle this. There is only, "how our group handles this without falling apart". Have a group discussion.

Well, I think we can see which side of the argument you are on :)

There is also another element that should be addressed. What is the reaction if the crafter only crafts for themselves?

In a group that has decided on no fees, what happens if the crafter believes that they will be exploited with that ruling, and decides only to craft for themselves and do research or such during the rest of their downtime. How would the rest of the group react to that?


Mistwalker wrote:

Well, I think we can see which side of the argument you are on :)

Yes, I posted my position on page 40 if you wish to review it. I'm on my own side.

Mistwalker wrote:
In a group that has decided on no fees, what happens if the crafter believes that they will be exploited with that ruling, and decides only to craft for themselves and do research or such during the rest of their downtime. How would the rest of the group react to that?

So the Crafters feelings of being exploited with no fees are more valid than the Non-crafters feelings of being exploited with fees? No, they are both valid feelings. So given that there is no right way to react, I can only say how I would react. Depending on the player, character, campaign, level, class I am playing, etc... I might do any of the following;

- Take my own crafting feat
- ignore their character as much as I reasonably could
- put them at the bottom of my "To help in combat" list
- change characters to a more group appropriate character (assuming my character was the "stranger" in the party)
- (Only if the player or character was REALLY offensive and I didn't want to use 1 of the other options would I) Start charging for my services.

This sort of reminds me of a PBP game I was in where a PC was playing an evil mercenary and was expecting the group to hire (and pay) his character before he would go on the adventure. It's not exactly the same, but it is similar.


Quote:
- Take my own crafting feat

Reasonable.

Quote:

- ignore their character as much as I reasonably could

- put them at the bottom of my "To help in combat" list

That can go both ways you know.

Quote:
- (Only if the player or character was REALLY offensive and I didn't want to use 1 of the other options would I) Start charging for my services.

If you've got some kind of service that you can provide outside of adventuring, during downtime or something, then sure you can charge.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16 , Star Voter 2013, Star Voter 2014

Mistwalker wrote:
Celestial Pegasus wrote:

I have a question, as I couldn't immediately find it when digging through a few pages (the idea was mentioned, I just can't find the exact posts) and have a genuine interest...

Is there some proven math that keeps the crafter(s) and the rest of the party in WBL parity, and/or allows a minor but acceptable profit that places a reasonable value on the feat(s) expended to do all this crafting?

The math that was quoted is some rough math that I applied some numbers to. I haven't had anyone who read through and understand it find any major errors.

Mistwalker wrote:

SKR’s clarification states that for calculations of Wealth By Level (WBL), the totals for crafter’s crafted items is based on the crafting price, not the retail cost. Everyone else has their WBL calculated using the retail cost.

This does not mean that the crafter get’s double loot/gold/drops/etc..
This does have a major impact on WBL calculations.

10th level party of 4
WBL 62,000 gp

No crafter party
4 characters have a WBL of 62,000 gp

Free crafter party
3 characters have a WBL of 124,000 gp
crafter has a WBL of 62,000 gp
GM either has to add a lot more items for the crafter, or may simply drop the loot for everyone and the crafter falls farther and farther behind.

Fee crafter party 10% fee
3 characters pay the crafter 6,200 gp, leaving them 55,800 gp, which turns into WBL of 111, 600
crafter has 62,000+3*6200= a WBL of 80,600

Fee crafter party 20% fee
3 characters pay the crafter 12,400 gp, leaving them 49,600 gp, which turns into WBL of 99,200
crafter has 62,000+3*12,400 = a WBL of 99,200 gp

So, to me, this means that the easiest way to keep WBL in balance, without the GM having to do anything, is for all crafters to charge a 20% fee. The GM does not have to change drops, create special drops, talk to the group to explain why the crafter is suddenly getting a bonus of xxx gold, etc..

This is erroneous.

A caster crafter will have WBL of 62,000, which would mean 124,000 gp of gear. His Crafting doubles his WBL.

His companions would also have 62,000 of gear, but with no crafting feat, they don't get the double WBL benefit. So, what happens is that the whole party receives LESS MONEY...but only the non-crafters are penalized. In essence, the other three members of the party should only have received 31k of loot if the crafting is done for free.

How this would happen mathematically in play is almost impossible. The DM will be forced to reduce the loot of the main players, which would also reduce it for the crafter.

There is no equitable point here. If the crafter makes things for the other characters, there's going to be an imbalance very quickly, unless him doing so waives the WBL for the other players.

==Aelryinth


Quote:
His companions would also have 62,000 of gear, but with no crafting feat, they don't get the double WBL benefit. So, what happens is that the whole party receives LESS MONEY...

Err, no, because the crafters crafted gear is counted as half it's price. That's the point of the crafting feats.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16 , Star Voter 2013, Star Voter 2014

Incorrect.

ONLY the crafter gets the benefit of doubling WBL. That's the point of the feat.

The only benefit a non-crafter gets is custom gear...which they can get anyways.

Crafter feats don't bork the WBL for non-crafters...that's one of the key points of the whole thread.

If they DO...then you end up with a whole party with double WBL, and the whole point is moot, atuo-balancing.

Rule it the latter way, you solve a lot of problems. But RAW, only the crafter gets double. If SKR came in and ruled otherwise in the last thousand posts (as he did for crafters), I admit an error.

And that becomes a mathematical impossibility for balance if you craft for the rest of the group!

\==Aelryinth


Quote:
ONLY the crafter gets the benefit of doubling WBL. That's the point of the feat.

Err, that's what I said. "The crafters crafted gear".

Quote:
The only benefit a non-crafter gets is custom gear...which they can get anyways.

Where from?


ImperatorK wrote:
Quote:
ONLY the crafter gets the benefit of doubling WBL. That's the point of the feat.

Err, that's what I said. "The crafters crafted gear".

Quote:
The only benefit a non-crafter gets is custom gear...which they can get anyways.
Where from?

Random merchants? Although he may have meant that they get the custom gear benefit regardless of whether or not you attempt to balance the wealth or enforce the FAQ ruling.

Edit: Just as a side note it's not double WBL it's WBL determined at crafting cost instead of market price, it's different although mostly in a technical sense.


ImperatorK wrote:
Quote:
- (Only if the player or character was REALLY offensive and I didn't want to use 1 of the other options would I) Start charging for my services.
If you've got some kind of service that you can provide outside of adventuring, during downtime or something, then sure you can charge.

So how would you react if your not-able-to-cast-restoration-character got hit with a Permanent negative level or ability drain that can only be restored through magic and your Restoration-casting-cleric wants to charge you spellcasting fees(Caster level × spell level × 10 gp) in addition to the material component cost to remove it?


Quote:
Random merchants?

You can get custom gear from random merchants? I thought that random merchants have a stock of random items and you have to be lucky or good at finding the right merchant with the right items.

Quote:
So how would you react if your not-able-to-cast-restoration-character got hit with a Permanent negative level or ability drain that can only be restored through magic and your Restoration-casting-cleric wants to charge you spellcasting fees(Caster level × spell level × 10 gp) in addition to the material component cost to remove it?

I'd call him a greedy jerk for not doing his job.


Crafting for a non-crafter creates wealth and an imbalance in the WBL guidelines. How this additional wealth is distributed can and should be decided by individual gaming groups. In fact, I believe that deciding as a group how to resolve these kinds of dilemmas is a major part of the fun of tabletop gaming.

While it's generally agreed that the WBL guidelines are something to strive for I don't believe most groups rigorously enforce them. For those that do follow the WBL guideline closely the wealth created by crafting and especially crafting fees represent a paradox. I believe that this is exactly why crafting fees elicit such a strong reaction from Selgard, Dragonfire and Adamantium Dragon (I'd love to hear from you guys on this).

My experience has been that WBL is only followed loosely and that other PCs are mindful of other player's fun - no one needs to or wants to dominate every encounter and I fully trust our crafter to use the additional wealth responsibly (most likely going towards something that will benefit the whole party but will be nominally hers, like an airship or similar awesomeness). If I didn't trust my fellow PCs to handle wealth distribution reasonably fairly (modulo individual character quirks and motivations) then I wouldn't want to game with them.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
Aelryinth wrote:

This is erroneous.

A caster crafter will have WBL of 62,000, which would mean 124,000 gp of gear. His Crafting doubles his WBL.

His companions would also have 62,000 of gear, but with no crafting feat, they don't get the double WBL benefit. So, what happens is that the whole party receives LESS MONEY...but only the non-crafters are penalized. In essence, the other three members of the party should only have received 31k of loot if the crafting is done for free.

How this would happen mathematically in play is almost impossible. The DM will be forced to reduce the loot of the main players, which would also reduce it for the crafter.

There is no equitable point here. If the crafter makes things for the other characters, there's going to be an imbalance very quickly, unless him doing so waives the WBL for the other players.

Aelryinth wrote:

Incorrect.

ONLY the crafter gets the benefit of doubling WBL. That's the point of the feat.

The only benefit a non-crafter gets is custom gear...which they can get anyways.

Crafter feats don't bork the WBL for non-crafters...that's one of the key points of the whole thread.

If they DO...then you end up with a whole party with double WBL, and the whole point is moot, atuo-balancing.

Rule it the latter way, you solve a lot of problems. But RAW, only the crafter gets double. If SKR came in and ruled otherwise in the last thousand posts (as he did for crafters), I admit an error.

And that becomes a mathematical impossibility for balance if you craft for the rest of the group!

\==Aelryinth

I don't see the error that you are talking about. The crafter's WBL isn't doubled, it is calculated from cost value of the magic items and not the retail value of magic items. While this may give the illusion that their WBL is doubled, it isn't. The non-crafters' WBL is calculated using the retail value of the magic items.

The math above shows that if a 20% fee is paid to the crafter, the WBL of both the crafter and non-crafters will balance out (for a party of 4). The crafter at cost and the non-crafters at retail.

In the discussion about WBL, the free crafter crowd has been advocating for double WBL for non-crafters, saying that they should be paying cost for magic items. They are saying that all of the items crafted by PCs count at cost, not just for the crafter.

The fee crafters have been saying that if the items are crafted for free, the WBL will be skewed against the crafter, with the crafter having half the WBL of the rest of the team. Again, The crafter at cost and the non-crafters at retail.

The math above is a way to keep the WBL in line without requiring more work on the part of the GM (for those that monitor WBL in that fashion) and/or a way to keep the relative power levels in the group equal if the GM doesn't monitor WBL or is strictly following an AP or module, etc..


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
Valandil Ancalime wrote:
Mistwalker wrote:

Well, I think we can see which side of the argument you are on :)

Yes, I posted my position on page 40 if you wish to review it. I'm on my own side.

Mistwalker wrote:
In a group that has decided on no fees, what happens if the crafter believes that they will be exploited with that ruling, and decides only to craft for themselves and do research or such during the rest of their downtime. How would the rest of the group react to that?

So the Crafters feelings of being exploited with no fees are more valid than the Non-crafters feelings of being exploited with fees? No, they are both valid feelings. So given that there is no right way to react, I can only say how I would react. Depending on the player, character, campaign, level, class I am playing, etc... I might do any of the following;

- Take my own crafting feat
- ignore their character as much as I reasonably could
- put them at the bottom of my "To help in combat" list
- change characters to a more group appropriate character (assuming my character was the "stranger" in the party)
- (Only if the player or character was REALLY offensive and I didn't want to use 1 of the other options would I) Start charging for my services.

This sort of reminds me of a PBP game I was in where a PC was playing an evil mercenary and was expecting the group to hire (and pay) his character before he would go on the adventure. It's not exactly the same, but it is similar.

Well, your side seems to be saying the same things as the free crafter crowd, which is why I included you in that group.

Your comment of "If you believe spending a feat gives them the right to make money off the party or not?" is a loaded statement, portraying the fee crafters in a insulting fashion.

In response to my question about only crafting for themselve, your reaction was that it was exploiting the non-crafters if the crafter doesn't craft at cost for them. I am not following the logic on that one, could you please explain a bit in more detail - I am curious, not being sarcastic.

Valandil Ancalime wrote:
So how would you react if your not-able-to-cast-restoration-character got hit with a Permanent negative level or ability drain that can only be restored through magic and your Restoration-casting-cleric wants to charge you spellcasting fees(Caster level × spell level × 10 gp) in addition to the material component cost to remove it?

As for charging for fees while adventuring, could you tell me how the crafter is not doing their part? Are they not contributing to the fights, casting the appropriate spells in and out of combat?

In the long run, if you start charging while adventuring for doing your adventuring "job", then so does everyone else, which will likely end up as a wash. Do you have any arguments that would prove contrary to that?

Do you believe that the only reason that a crafter would charge a fee is greed on their part?


Funny, I read the first page and there was an argument for a 10% charge. Now math shows that 20% charge should be used to even things out.

In my Eberron game, the Artificer charges the group 50%, barring special circumstances!
So a 1000 gp cloak of resistance costs 750 gp to the buyer for a 250 gp saving and the artificer earns 250 gp, both of them are wealthier by the same amount of money by using the feat and everybody is happy this way.
His time and feat slots have a cost afterall, and the others still get their items 25% cheaper than normal.
Also, as the player stated well, his class is a money powered one, since he burns through offensive wands like there's no tomorrow during battles, and his most used/iconic infusions (weapon/armor augmentation) carry an expensive material cost as well.

Of course, the Artificer doesn't charge for stuff like wands of cure light wounds that benefit the whole party. That goes into a special "party cash" along with scrolls of remove curse, restoration and raise dead, and some cash for party emergencies.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
Krinn wrote:
Funny, I read the first page and there was an argument for a 10% charge. Now math shows that 20% charge should be used to even things out.

Well, the ironic thing is that the 20% came about after the free crafters were saying that it would unbalance the WBL in favor of the crafters. So the fee crafters looked at the numbers and did the math and, well, unless the crafters charge 20%, then the WBL will be affected, but with the crafter having the short end of the stick, not the non-crafters.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16 , Star Voter 2013, Star Voter 2014

Mistwalker wrote:

I don't see the error that you are talking about. The crafter's WBL isn't doubled, it is calculated from cost value of the magic items and not the retail value of magic items. While this may give the illusion that their WBL is doubled, it isn't. The non-crafters' WBL is calculated using the retail value of the magic items.

The math above shows that if a 20% fee is paid to the crafter, the WBL of both the crafter and non-crafters will balance out (for a party of 4). The crafter at cost and the non-crafters at retail.

In the discussion about WBL, the free crafter crowd has been advocating for double WBL for non-crafters, saying that they should be paying cost for magic items. They are saying that all of the items crafted by PCs count at cost, not just for the crafter.

The fee crafters have been saying that if the items are crafted for free, the WBL will be skewed against the crafter, with the crafter having half the WBL of the rest of the team. Again, The crafter at cost and the non-crafters at retail.

The math above is a way to keep the WBL in line without requiring more work on the part of the GM (for those that monitor WBL in that fashion) and/or a way to keep the relative power levels in the group equal if the GM doesn't monitor WBL or is strictly following an AP or module, etc..

??

Everyone has a 62k gp limit/person.

THE CRAFTER, and ONLY the Crafter, can make his own items. By the ruling of SKR, this means he can spend his 62k gp, make them himself, and end up with 124k of magic items.

The Rest of the Party STILL has a 62k market value gp limit...EVEN IF THE CRAFTER MAKES THE ITEM. Unless they take the feat, they can't get 'double value'. That IS the benefit of the feat.

Look at it this way...anyone can buy anything in a major city. Or they can commission anything in a major city. You can be customized out the wazoo.

The only benefit of Crafting is a) not having to visit/teleport to a city and b) doubling the Crafter's personal WBL.

As SKR has ruled, Crafting doubles the CRAFTER'S gold...nobody else's. If they want double gold, they take the feat, too. The rest of the party does NOT get double gold/WBL because ONE PERSON has the feat.

That's the point of the feat.

This 20% 'fee' thing does not work. As someone else pointed out, what this allows is the crafter sucking up the party's wealth and getting ever further ahead on WBL as he gets paid. You CANNOT equalize things with a fee...he's already ahead of the game and only going to get further if he collects a 'fee'.

By the rules of the game, a Crafter effectively offers NO benefit to the rest of the party other then immediacy. IF he makes extra gear for them at less money, the DM has to downtone the money they are given to keep them inside the guidelines. If they pay that money to him, the party has to earn even LESS money to keep the CRAFTER inside the wealth guidelines...a viscous circle that auto-completes.

Paying the crafter is tantamount to saying his downtime is worth more then the rest of the party. As soon as he starts charging fees, the rest of the party should start adventuring while he crafts, turning their downtime into uptime, just like he is. Who will come out ahead of that game?

==Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16 , Star Voter 2013, Star Voter 2014

Mistwalker wrote:
Krinn wrote:
Funny, I read the first page and there was an argument for a 10% charge. Now math shows that 20% charge should be used to even things out.
Well, the ironic thing is that the 20% came about after the free crafters were saying that it would unbalance the WBL in favor of the crafters. So the fee crafters looked at the numbers and did the math and, well, unless the crafters charge 20%, then the WBL will be affected, but with the crafter having the short end of the stick, not the non-crafters.

That math is completely erroneous.

The caster can make 62k of items for himself, and end up with 124k market value.

IF YOU ALLOW for his feat to benefit everyone, they can give him 62k, and after another 372 days of crafting, everyone else has 124k of loot...exactly equal. that's not how it works, but if you rule it that way, fair enough.

If they PAY HIM...then 20% of their wealth means they gave him 18.6k, which is +37.2 in magic items for him, and -12.4k in items each for them, resulting in him having 151.2k in items and them having 111.6k in items...he has sucked wealth out of the rest of the party to benefit himself even more, AND he's now borking the WBL rules.

So, no, charging fees only transfers the rest of the party's loot to him. It is manifestly unequal.

==Aelryinth


Quote:

??

Everyone has a 62k gp limit/person.

THE CRAFTER, and ONLY the Crafter, can make his own items. By the ruling of SKR, this means he can spend his 62k gp, make them himself, and end up with 124k of magic items.

The Rest of the Party STILL has a 62k market value gp limit...EVEN IF THE CRAFTER MAKES THE ITEM. Unless they take the feat, they can't get 'double value'. That IS the benefit of the feat.

Eh... Ael. We are saying the exact same thing, only in slightly different words. So please, stop correcting us, because we are in agreement. -_-

Quote:
This 20% 'fee' thing does not work. As someone else pointed out, what this allows is the crafter sucking up the party's wealth and getting ever further ahead on WBL as he gets paid. You CANNOT equalize things with a fee...he's already ahead of the game and only going to get further if he collects a 'fee'.

Incorrect. The crafter isn't ahead of the game. He's exactly where he should be. It's his teammates who are ahead of the game from getting cheap items. The crafter is loosing because the time he spent on making their items he could spend on making his own items. Or researching spells. Or relaxing. not to mention that he made a big investment - a feat.


Quote:
The caster can make 62k of items for himself, and end up with 124k market value.

He has to get that 62k from somewhere. So he charges 20%. And they, by paying him that extra 20%, aren't getting over their WBL. That's how it works.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16 , Star Voter 2013, Star Voter 2014

The rest of the party is losing gold AND time. The crafter is losing time. This is manifestly unequal.

The party should be out adventuring or raising funds while he crafts to even the shtick. How often is that happening? To the tune of 100 gp/day if he's charging 10%? no? And while he's getting cheap items, they are getting xp? Does that happen, too?

In any other circumstance, he's sucking up party loot and skewing the WBL tables further. It's just math.

Until there are actually realistic rules about buying/selling magical items, Crafting is going to screw things up. It's just what happens.

==Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16 , Star Voter 2013, Star Voter 2014

ImperatorK wrote:
Quote:
The caster can make 62k of items for himself, and end up with 124k market value.
He has to get that 62k from somewhere. So he charges 20%. And they, by paying him that extra 20%, aren't getting over their WBL. That's how it works.

Uh, no?

He gets the same exact base wealth as everyone else...62k.

Only he can double it for himself only.

They can get 62k of wealth at market value, and he can get 62k of stuff at crafter value, which is 124k.

He doesn't need the party at all to do that...it just happens. I'm not at all sure where the justification for this 20% comes from, since charging money just means instead of base 62k, he gets more, and siphons off gold from the rest of them.

==Aelryinth


Quote:
The rest of the party is losing gold AND time. The crafter is losing time. This is manifestly unequal.

They aren't loosing either of those things. The crafter is crafting on downtime. And math shows that the 20% fee only evens things out between him and the party.


There should be plenty of non-adventuring applications of your crafting skills where you can make a profit from your party (for example, a permanent unseen servant to keep their house clean).

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16 , Star Voter 2013, Star Voter 2014

THe math shows nothing.

The crafter is crafting on downtime, which becomes uptime...it's now productive.

What is the rest of the party doing to make their downtime uptime? Sitting around waiting for the crafter?

They should be out producing something, not sitting around with their thumbs up their bums. Like, adventuring. And if he wants to CHARGE them for his crafting, that's exactly what they should be doing.

His time is worth no more then theirs is.

==Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16 , Star Voter 2013, Star Voter 2014

Darkwing Duck wrote:
There should be plenty of non-adventuring applications of your crafting skills where you can make a profit from your party (for example, a permanent unseen servant to keep their house clean).

Until they equalize and normalize the crafting rules, ain't gonna happen equitably.

==Aelryinth

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