| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I actually don't agree with your assessment on the Gunslinger archetype, Mysterious Stranger. I have a player that is using it to great effect currently.
For those of you who do not know, the Mysterious Stranger does the following:
Trades:
Wisdom-Based Grit
1st level: Quick Clear, a deed used to fix firearms after they malfunction.
2nd level: Nimble: Dodge bonus to AC.
5th Level: Gun Training: An ability that allows the Gunslinger to add their Dexterity bonus to attacks made with a specific firearm.
Gains:
Charisma-Based Grit
1st level: Focused Aim, allows the gunslinger to spend grit to add their Charisma to attack rolls made with ANY firearm.
2nd Level: Lucky, bonus to Will saves.
5t Level: Fortune, fix a misfired weapon as a free action a number of times per day equal to Charisma mod.
11th Level, Clipping Shot, missed attacks deal half damage.
Ultimately, a Mysterious Stranger trades passive damage for a passive ability to fix their firearm. In my opinion, they're also better-rounded and more versatile then the standard Gunslinger. For one, they trade an AC bonus (not super important for a ranged character) and a Reflex save bonus (Gunslingers have this in spades) for a Will bonus (offsets them having a lower Wisdom AND is a weakness in the class to begin with). Not to mention their clearing mechanic does not require an action nor grit points, and although one can argue that you cannot do it as often (Charisma mod is going to be less then your grit total, even as a regular Wisdom-based Gunslinger), but in the long run, you're pretty unlucky if you misfire more then 3 - 5 times per day (16 to 20 is a fairly tame range to assume that a Charisma-relent character will possess.
Also, although the Mysterious Stranger needs to pay grit to add their ability modifier to their attack rolls (a downside), a benefit is that they can do this to ANY FIREARM THEY WIELD. This means that, especially in a campaign setting where firearms are fairly abundant, a Mysterious Stranger is much more versatile. Plus, don't forget that the Mysterious Stranger COULD apply their Signature Deed to Focused Aim, just as a regular Gunslinger could to Quick Clear. Overall, I think it is a very well-balanced Archetype that sacrifices damage in specific situations for a much more versatile experience.
|
Weapon Focus is good for one thing you have omitted here... prereq for the feat tree (believe it's called snapshot; don't have UC in front of me and it's not up in d20pfsrd.com yet) that lets you threaten with ranged weapons at 5-10 feet, which is nice for a gunslinger (particularly with combat reflexes). Maybe more useful for a pistolero type that's consistently going to be at mid- to short-range for engagements (as s/he'll be closed with more).
Weapon Focus is good for one thing you have omitted here... prereq for the feat tree (believe it's called snapshot; don't have UC in front of me and it's not up in d20pfsrd.com yet) that lets you threaten with ranged weapons at 5-10 feet, which is nice for a gunslinger (particularly with combat reflexes). Maybe more useful for a pistolero type that's consistently going to be at mid- to short-range for engagements (as s/he'll be closed with more).
That's basically the way I'm going with my pistolero. Though I took a level of divination wizard at level one to be the fastest gun in the west :)
I confess, I did not have time to fully digest UC feats. The deed feats were examined because they are very likely to be the first things looked at. I would not say this guide is comprehensive for feats from UC or UM.
It's no problem; Ultimate Combat JUST came out last week, and a lot of people haven't had the time to actually test all of the new rules and options. I think it's a little early for a definitive guide to the Gunslinger, especially when their their strengths, as you mentioned, are extremely different from any other weapon-based class in the game.
Lightning Reload*: There is a weird build in which you can make deadshot your signature deed and use it in combination with this to constantly make those big attacks mentioned above with one of the stupid guns. If your DM is using the liberal interpretation, then this might be worthwhile...but people should throw bricks at you for doing it. If he doesn't the build doesn't work well. In any case, this is a crappy deed since you should already be reloading as a free action way earlier on.
I must be completely missing something here...
How does one reduce reloading to a free action earlier than Lightning Reload?
Lightning Reload*: There is a weird build in which you can make deadshot your signature deed and use it in combination with this to constantly make those big attacks mentioned above with one of the stupid guns. If your DM is using the liberal interpretation, then this might be worthwhile...but people should throw bricks at you for doing it. If he doesn't the build doesn't work well. In any case, this is a crappy deed since you should already be reloading as a free action way earlier on.I must be completely missing something here...
How does one reduce reloading to a free action earlier than Lightning Reload?
Rapid reload + Alchemy cartiridges (raises Misfire but all reduce reloading by 1 degree).
A Pistol is a 1 handed firearm. Standard action reload -2 actions = Free action.
Yes, it is more expensive to craft alchemical cartriges (6 gold crafted compared to 1 sp of a bullet crafted), but it helps reload a huge amount.
On a side note:
Remember size doesn't affect how many hands to use (only gives a penalty to hit and increases/decreases cost, depending if making bigger or smaller).
You could have large pistols in both hands as level 1 Pisterlo (if you didn't mind -2 hit penalty from a weapon inappropriately sized). It would increase damage, weight, and cost. But it is legal.
Drake, though I'm not a fan of the pre reqs, Dodge and Mobility, I am curious there was no mention of Deft Shootist. While the shooting AoO can be avoided by moving before firing I think the no AoO from reloading might be handy. Also, while Mysterious Stranger may be a sub par DPR choice it can help alleviate some MAD if going for a Holy Gun or Bard/Gunslinger build (something I myself am looking at).
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
DrakeRocket's Gunslinger guide
The Creepy Two Gun Build:
Alright, so, I -know- someone is going to want to play a two-gun wielding character and they are going to plead to DrakeRocket to tell them how. The reality of this is that Gunslinger does not support an effective way to use two pistols, because you have to have a hand free to reload. Other classes however...
Alchemist: Yup. I am telling you to take two levels in alchemist. In particular pick up vivisectionist for the 1d6 sneak attack instead of a worthless (to you) bomb. This gives you a few okay infusions, a very nice mutagen for your dex that will last most of a dungeon and, of greatest importance: the vestigial arm or tentacle discoveries from Ultimate Magic. Yup, use horrific potions to grow extra limbs to reload your weapon.
I thought of the creepy 3-armed gunslinger "Justice" from Afro Samurai as soon as I read this :)
Heh. Called it a while back that the pisteleros would be getting extra arms.
Now you know where the worm from that tequila went...
At least a gunslinger has a reason to pick up alchemy. Who else can make gunpowder?
|
|
I'm thinking of creating a Gunslinger for the first time for use in PFS play in a couple of weeks, so this guide is a big help. However, one thing has confused me. There are a couple of references to using bucklers, but on p9 of Ultimate Combat, it states that Gunslingers are only proficient with light armour, not shields. Have I missed something?
I know that on p136 it states:
Bucklers: You can use a one-handed or two-handed firearm without penalty while carrying a buckler.
But presumably this doesn't override the need to be proficient with a buckler.
|
How isn't the gun tank horrible? He replaces his dodge bonus with a situational deflection bonus (that doesn't stack with a ring of protection). Worse, he loses five bonus feats and replaces them with a nerfed version of armor training (no speed increase). Considering that the gun tank still needs dexterity to hit and deal damage, the ability to wear heavy armor isn't going to be that useful.
Why no mention of double barreled pistols? They nearly double the pistolero's DPR at high levels.
As for bucklers, a mithral buckler has no armor check penalty, so you can use them without problems even if you don't have the proficiency.
Any suggested traits? Reactionary (+2 init) seems useful; any others that work especially well for your typical gunslinger?
Indomitable Faith is probably a good idea since you have a weak will save.
One question I'm curious about, is there some reason one would not want to divert from Gunslinger to Fighter after a certain point? Is there enough justification present in the high level deeds to make you want to stick to the class? It looks to me like five levels of Gunslinger is about as much as you really need.
Also, another question. I seem to be missing how you get the reload time of a pistol down to a free action. Rapid Reload doesn't quite do it.
|
|
One question I'm curious about, is there some reason one would not want to divert from Gunslinger to Fighter after a certain point? Is there enough justification present in the high level deeds to make you want to stick to the class? It looks to me like five levels of Gunslinger is about as much as you really need.
High level pistoleros are pretty awesome. With signature deed you can use Up Close and Deadly on each attack. You'll want to reach at least level 13 with a pistolero or musket master to ignore misfire. Nimble is nice, too. Three levels of fighter would grant you two bonus feats and weapon training, but the last three gunslinger levels aren't bad, either.
Also, another question. I seem to be missing how you get the reload time of a pistol down to a free action. Rapid Reload doesn't quite do it.
Paper cartridges plus Rapid Reload.
High level pistoleros are pretty awesome. With signature deed you can use Up Close and Deadly on each attack. You'll want to reach at least level 13 with a pistolero or musket master to ignore misfire. Nimble is nice, too. Three levels of fighter would grant you two bonus feats and weapon training, but the last three gunslinger levels aren't bad, either.
Three levels of fighter won't get you much. You get some feats and armor training by then. If you want weapon training, that's level 5. I'd say you want those 5 fighter levels since that's both weapon training and weapon specialization.
Is there any other way to get the misfire down? I see there's two magic properties you can add to weapons for the purpose, but is there anything else? Personally I think having greater specialization (pistol) would be pretty mean. Fighter 12/Gunslinger (pistolero) would be a heavy damage combo.
|
|
Three levels of fighter won't get you much. You get some feats and armor training by then. If you want weapon training, that's level 5. I'd say you want those 5 fighter levels since that's both weapon training and weapon specialization.Is there any other way to get the misfire down? I see there's two magic properties you can add to weapons for the purpose, but is there anything else? Personally I think having greater specialization (pistol) would be pretty mean. Fighter 12/Gunslinger (pistolero) would be a heavy damage combo.
A weapon master fighter gets weapon training at third level.
And greater Weapon Specialization grants you less weapon than Up Close and Deadly. A 20th level Pistolero gets 5d6 points of damage on each attack. It doesn't get multiplied on a critical hit, but it's still higher on average than Weapon Training plus (Greater) Weapon Specialization plus Duelist Gloves.
|
Remember size doesn't affect how many hands to use (only gives a penalty to hit and increases/decreases cost, depending if making bigger or smaller).
You could have large pistols in both hands as level 1 Pisterlo (if you didn't mind -2 hit penalty from a weapon inappropriately sized). It would increase damage, weight, and cost. But it is legal.
Not true:
Weapon Size: Every weapon has a size category. This designation indicates the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed.A weapon's size category isn't the same as its size as an object. Instead, a weapon's size category is keyed to the size of the intended wielder. In general, a light weapon is an object two size categories smaller than the wielder, a one-handed weapon is an object one size category smaller than the wielder, and a two-handed weapon is an object of the same size category as the wielder.
Inappropriately Sized Weapons: A creature can't make optimum use of a weapon that isn't properly sized for it. A cumulative –2 penalty applies on attack rolls for each size category of difference between the size of its intended wielder and the size of its actual wielder. If the creature isn't proficient with the weapon, a –4 nonproficiency penalty also applies.
The measure of how much effort it takes to use a weapon (whether the weapon is designated as a light, one-handed, or two-handed weapon for a particular wielder) is altered by one step for each size category of difference between the wielder's size and the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed. For example, a Small creature would wield a Medium one-handed weapon as a two-handed weapon. If a weapon's designation would be changed to something other than light, one-handed, or two-handed by this alteration, the creature can't wield the weapon at all.
My bold.
Your large pistol would be two-handed.
My bold.
Your large pistol would be two-handed.
I'll quote the book, even give page numbers. And remem ber specific (gun rules) surpass generic rules.
Pg 136, "Inappropriately sized Firearms: ... The size of a firearm never affects how many hands you need to shoot it. "
Do some fact checking before you try and second guess a claim. Guns don't use normal weapon size rules. Heck, 2 handed firearms can be fired in 1 hand (with -4 penalty to hit).
A weapon master fighter gets weapon training at third level.
And greater Weapon Specialization grants you less weapon than Up Close and Deadly. A 20th level Pistolero gets 5d6 points of damage on each attack. It doesn't get multiplied on a critical hit, but it's still higher on average than Weapon Training plus (Greater) Weapon Specialization plus Duelist Gloves.
The difference is pretty small.
Weapon training 3Greater Weapon specialization +4
Gloves of dueling +2
=9
vs
3d6 from Up Close and Deadly = 10.5
Just ran a DPR calculation comparing the two builds at level 20.
Each one fighting a Jaberwocky CR 23 (touch AC 14).
The outcome was mighty close:
283 for the pure gunslinger vs. 277 for the fighter 12/gunslinger 8.
If we look at something immune to precision damage it flips with the fighter/gunslinger doing 182 vs. 159 for the pure gunslinger.
(I didn't assume haste of any flavor).
Gun tank horrible-ness was largely in the context of a mysterious stranger, which is a good bit -more- horrible.
The more I look at it, the less I'm sold on the absolute horribleness of Mysterious Stranger.
It does conditionally get a stat to damage, and at low levels if you are dropping things regularly you will regain the grit used to do so; and that is from level 1. At level 5, instead of gun training, you get an ability which largely negates the need for the lost 'Quick Clear' at level 1... not great, but not too terrible either. And from level 11 on, as long as you have a Swift Action, you have +cha to damage.
As well, perhaps more importantly, it gets saves nearly on par with a monk; unless I'm not reading this right, its saves top out at 12/12/11, only one off from being three strait good saves.
I'm going to try one in play and see how it goes; it seems like a valid, defensively ok ranged build with lots of Face potential. And tons of options to multiclass down the road.
|
|
My bold.
Your large pistol would be two-handed.
I'll quote the book, even give page numbers. And remem ber specific (gun rules) surpass generic rules.
Pg 136, "Inappropriately sized Firearms: ... The size of a firearm never affects how many hands you need to shoot it. "
Do some fact checking before you try and second guess a claim. Guns don't use normal weapon size rules. Heck, 2 handed firearms can be fired in 1 hand (with -4 penalty to hit).
My bad, wow, that's wierd and bendy.
So, presumably, a halfling can fire a gangantuan pistol?
|
To be totally fair Starbuck only gave you the part of the rule that made his point. The entire rule is:
Inappropriately Sized Firearms: You cannot make
optimum use of a firearm that is not properly sized for
you. A cumulative –2 penalty applies on attack rolls for
each size category of difference between your size and
the size of the firearm. If you are not proficient with the
firearm, a –4 nonproficiency penalty also applies. The
size of a firearm never affects how many hands you need
to use to shoot it, the exception being siege firearms and
Large or larger creatures. In most cases, a Large or larger
creature can use a siege firearm as a two-handed firearm,
but the creature takes a –4 penalty for using it this way
because of its awkwardness.
Hope you don't mind me adding this to the Guide to the Guides thread.
Do you plan on creating a Google Doc or placing this on d20pfsrd?
on a munchkin sidenote, if you can't use manyshot because it says bow, you can use two-weapon rend on pistols because it doesn't say melee.
I completly missed that pistoleros don't get startling shot, made awesome by sap-master.
thanks for making a guide.
it would be awesome if you could make it in a format similar to Treantmonks guides.
Edit: prehensile hair is 1 minute per witch level in 1 minute intervals, useful for 1 fight then if you take but 1 level in witch.
Although i congratulate you for going through all the headache to create a gunslinger guide, don't you think you should wait for the lightning reload and double barrel pistol clarifications/FAQ before creating the guide.
I like the guide, thanks for putting this up.
Don't own UC, and unfortunately wont for quite a while, so maybe this should be more obvious than it is...but I'm curious on why there is no mention of pepper boxes in the pistolero talk? Wouldn't a pair of pepper boxes eliminate (partially) the need for the off hand to reload?
|
|
Hi,
i mean the best race for the gunslinger is Tiefling/Asua-Spawn (Variant Tiefling Heritages, Council of Thieves #1).
This race get +2 Dex; +2 Wis; + a Variant Tiefling Ability
Disadvantages:
To get this race you must take the feat "Fiendish Heritage", otherwise you have a 1/10 chance to roll this race.
-2 Int
Saiko
I like the guide, thanks for putting this up.
Don't own UC, and unfortunately wont for quite a while, so maybe this should be more obvious than it is...but I'm curious on why there is no mention of pepper boxes in the pistolero talk? Wouldn't a pair of pepper boxes eliminate (partially) the need for the off hand to reload?
NO, unlike the revolver, the pepperbox's chambers don't rotate on their own. You need a free hand to rotate it. No real gain, as long as you can load as a free action, there isn't much point to the pepperbox.
As for the dead shot deed: What about taking the vital strike feat? Dead shot is a single attack, but I don't know if the vital strike feat can be applied to double the damage. I think the ruling is a little unclear about this.
Vital Strike only applies to an 'attack action' attack, which is a specific standard action attack. It can't be applied to anything else.
|
So why use three hands two duel wield? I mean if you weapon cord both hands, take your full rate of fire with one while reloading it with your empty hand; drop your first weapon and swift action the other one back to your hand and do the same, you should be good for two weapon fighting with pistols. Also double pistols are insane with this strategy, to the point where I fear letting them in my game.
I guess the cord strategy is kind of cheap and all, but if you're willing to mutate to do it, some string shouldn't be holding you back.
'm toying with the idea of purposely using an oversized (Large size) musket with my human Gunslinger. Medium muskets deal 1d12 damage per shot. Larhe muskets deal 3d6. That's an average increase of 4 damage a shot in return for a -2 to hit, and Gunslingers tend to hit touch AC instead of regular AC.
It also means, that even at 8th level, with a dex of 20, she can do 9d6+5 as a Full Round Action with Dead Shot, and if she crits, that suddenly becomes 36d6+20.
Is this a good idea? No shenangians of carrying around one-shot weapons that I'll drop after 1st round of combat. Probably more likely to be approved by the GM.