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The DPR Summer Olympics, or What are we supposed to use? Harsh language?


Advice

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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32

36 people marked this as a favorite.

I've got some time and I've got the bug, so let's do this again.

It's easy to say "Such-and-such class does a lot of damage," or "so-and-so class can't do damage." Usually, people are speaking from personal experience, which is heavily influenced by books available, player skill, random chance, GM whimsy, dice rolls, and the winds of fate. It's a bit more involved to actually sit down and measure those claims in a fair way. In the previous thread, a simple, conservative baseline was established to see how much damage optimized characters could do with a full attack in one round.

Understand that this is simply a scratch baseline for damage dealt. This is emphatically not a tier list, a how-to-play guide, a value judgement on the utility of each of these classes (as most of them do other things than damage), or a contest of any kind. It's just to get a good baseline on how much damage a character of this level will typically do, so "a lot of damage" can be something other than a gut call. If you want a magic list of all classes listed by overall power level, it's obviously the class's names reversed, arranged by alphabetical order.

The original thread wrote:
  • Level 10, since pretty much all classes are expected to have come into their own by then, plus it's a good round number. If you don't think this is a good level to use, feel free to redo the math for some other level; I know level 10 is arbitrary and any other level from about 4 on would work just as well.
  • Elite array for stats, which is 15 / 14 / 13 / 12 / 10 / 8, arranged however you'd like. While I know most people play with more forgiving point-buys or rolling schemes, this is a baseline. The CR system was originally based around players using elite array or a comparable point buy.
  • Standard wealth by level in magic items, but no magic items limited on a per-day or consumable basis. This means 62K gold in gear. No custom items, please.
  • Magic items will be prioritized for doing damage without adversely affecting survivability. Most classes will have a +3 weapon(s), a +4 stat booster to their damage-increasing stat, and miscellaneous other items. Most classes will also have boring magical weapons, favoring plain bonuses over fiery or holy or whatnot; this is because it's almost always better DPR and it makes my life easier. Everyone will also have a Handy Haversack because, seriously, they are level 10 characters.
  • Regarding survivability, AC 22 and fort/will saves at +8 are the minimum for melee characters, barring some explanation of why the character doesn't need these things to survive. (For example, barbarians get cut some slack on AC because of their raging HP totals.)
  • If you use non-core material, please state up top where it came from. This is so people can check your work without having to wonder where Crouching Hyena Strike came from. Try to stick to Paizo/Pathfinder non-core, player-oriented material. this isn't really the place to discuss WOTC 3.5 material or other d20 publishers' work, and Bestiary races are generally not well-balanced for player use.
  • Once the character is made, we need to figure out how much damage it does with a full attack. This standard is meant to best approximate typical combat circumstances, when damage is most on the line.

    The original thread wrote:
  • Target AC of 24. This is the standard for AC at CR 10, according to the Bestiary monster building guidelines. Target touch AC, when relevant, is 12 because that seems as good as any number.
  • A single full attack unless another attack routine is more effective.
  • Classes with significant limited abilities, be they situational ones (favored enemy, sneak attack) or limited on a per-day basis (smite, Quickened Divine Favor), will have their damage figured out both with and without those limited abilities.
  • Damage is figured out without consumables. There are just too many consumable-related shenanigans in D&D, and this avoids a whole ton of corner-case builds that illustrate nothing but the fact that consumables in D&D just aren't balanced.
  • Point Blank Shot is not applicable (unless you can't practically attack from longer range, as in the case of weapon throwers and alchemists). Most archers will prefer to avoid getting this buff, in most circumstances.
  • The value in DPR of a +1 to hit, a +1 damage, and an additional full-BAB attack will be figured out for each class. Some classes benefit more from one type of buff over another.
  • No class will be allowed any in-combat rounds to set up.
  • Buffs are an allowable part of your baseline only if you can apply them yourself, they are self-only or always apply to the entire group in every reasonable combat situation, and they either have a duration of 10 min/level or longer or can be applied as a swift/immediate/free action. (For example, bards should include inspire courage as a limited-use ability, per the above rule, but spellcasters won't be assumed to be using Greater Magic Weapon or Greater Magic Fang.)
    Why this rule works the way it does:
    From the original thread wrote:

    If the buff more or less unlimited use (e.g. GMW), then everyone who needs it will have it if there's a party member who can cast the spell. This means that it can be safely eliminated for a baseline comparison.

    If the buff is limited use (GMW from a caster with limited slots), then the party member who benefits most from it will get it. Since the best way to tell who benefits most is to look at baseline DPR before the buff, then it's best to calculate baseline DPR before rationed buffs.

    If the buff affects the entire party (bardic performance), then the caster is always benefiting from the buff whenever possible, and there's no decision involved in figuring out who to cast the buff on.

  • The damage formula is h(d+s)+tchd.

    h = Chance to hit, expressed as a percentage. Remember, this will never exceed .95 or go below .05.
    d = Average damage per hit.
    s = Average precision damage per hit (or other damage that isn't multiplied on a crit).
    t = Chance to roll a critical threat, expressed as a percentage.
    c = Critical hit bonus damage. x2 = 1, x3 = 2, x4 = 3.

    If there's no precision damage involved, this can be simplified to hd(1+tc).

    There is a more-involved formula which covers corner cases like elemental burst weapons, Critical Focus, etc. If you need it:

    Expanded damage formula:
    h(d+s)+ft(cd+cb+r)

    h = Chance to hit, expressed as a percentage. This doesn't exceed .95 (unless you autohit for whatever reason) and never goes below .05.
    d = Normal damage. This is any damage that happens any time you hit.
    s = Damage which isn't multiplied on a crit. "s" stands for sneak attack, but this includes elemental/alignment properties on weapons, manyshot damage, and so on.
    t = Chance to roll a threat. This is the threat range of your weapon or your chance to hit, whichever is lower.
    f = This is your chance to confirm a threat. Most of the time, this is equal to h. If you have Critical Focus, it's (h+.2) or .95, whichever is higher. If you auto-confirm crits, as with a level 20 fighter or Bless Weapon, this is 1.
    c = This is the number of bonus multiples you get from a crit. A 2x crit weapon is 1, a 3x crit weapon is 2, etc.
    b = This is elemental burst damage, such as from fiery burst weapons and thundering. Such enhancements self-multiply based on your crit multiplier; if they don't, then they're added to r and not b.
    r = This is fixed bonus damage dealt on a crit. No such abilities exist in PF core, to my knowledge.

    Finally, there is the last rule, and the most important: rule zero. Feel free to break any of these rules, as long as you make it absolutely clear that you are doing so. If you want to stat a selfish cleric or a 3.5 splat build or a character that abuses consumables or a character that demonstrates a house rule, that's fine. Just don't make people dig into your build to find out that you've done so.

    This isn't an advice thread; it's math in service of a discussion of class design. It's not a how-to guide or instructions on how to build a character.

    RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32

    Here's a sample build. It's probably a good idea to spoiler your full builds for readability's sake, but this one isn't spoilered for quoting convenience.

    Jack B. Nimble, human rogue 10
    Material used: Just core, only 45K WBL because he's from the old thread
    Ability Scores:
    STR: 14 (+2) (13 base, +1 level)
    DEX: 22 (+6) (15 base, +1 level, +2 racial, +4 belt)
    CON: 14 (+2)
    INT: 10 (0)
    WIS: 12 (+1)
    CHA: 8 (-1)

    HP: 78 HP (10d8+30)

    Saving Throws:
    Fort: +7 Ref: +15 Will: +6

    AC: 26 - Touch 18, Flatfooted 19 (+6 +2 mithral shirt, +1 Dodge, +6 dex, +1 Amulet of Natural Armor, +1 TW Def, +1 Ring of Protection)

    Attacks: +2 shortswords +14/+14/+9/+9, d6+4 dmg (19-20/x2)

    Special Attacks:
    Sneak attack +5d6, 2 Str damage

    Class Abilities:
    Evasion
    Improved Uncanny Dodge
    Finesse Rogue, Weapon Training, Surprise Attack, some other stuff
    Crippling Strike
    Other non-relevant stuff

    BAB: +7 CMB: +9 CMD: 24

    Feats:
    Weapon Finesse (bonus)
    Weapon Focus (shortsword) (bonus)
    Improved Initiative
    Dodge
    Two-Weapon Fighting
    Double Slice
    Two-Weapon Defense
    Improved Two-Weapon Fighting

    Skills:
    A high Stealth mod for all the good it does him
    Other stuff, doesn't matter

    Gear:
    Two +2 shortswords
    +2 mithral shirt
    Belt of whatever PF calls the dex belt +4
    Amulet of Natural Armor +1
    Cloak of Resistance +2
    Ring of Protection +1
    Handy Haversack
    Masterwork shortbow
    2800 GP in miscellaneous consumables, gear, non-portable goods, etc.

    RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32

    2 people marked this as a favorite.

    Since it was on my mind, let's do an APG monk to start things off. I can't take any credit for this; this is a synthesis of Carpy DM's Hungry Ghost monk and Jeranimus Rex's Temple Sword-using monk.

    This build illustrates how much extra damage monks get from temple swords and some of the lesser APG tools. While most of the improved performance is coming from the temple sword, Furious Focus is also very useful, to avoid the Power Attack penalty on the first attack, which will generally be carrying special attacks like Punishing Kick or Elemental Fist.

    Swordy Sam, human monk 10
    Material used: Advanced Players Guide monk archetypes, feats, and weapons.

    Spoiler:
    Ability Scores:
    STR: 22 (+6) (15 base, +1 level, +2 racial, +4 belt)
    DEX: 12 (+1)
    CON: 14 (+2)
    INT: 10 (0)
    WIS: 18 (+4) (13 base, +1 level, +4 hat)
    CHA: 8 (-1)

    HP: 78 HP (10d8+30)

    Saving Throws:
    Fort: +10 Ref: +9 Will: +12

    AC: 23 - Touch 20, Flatfooted 21 (+5 Wis, +1 Dex, +1 Natural, +2 Monk, +1 Dodge, +2 Armor, +1 Deflection)
    Attacks:
    Attack:
    +3 temple sword +17/+12, d8+9 dmg (19-20/x2)
    +3 temple sword flurry +18/+18/+13/+13, d8+9 dmg (17-20/x2)

    Special Attacks:
    Stunning Fist, 10/day
    Ki strike, magic and lawful

    Class Abilities:
    Flurry of blows
    Unarmed Strike
    Improved Evasion
    Many others, monks get a lot of random stuff

    BAB: +7 (+10 with flurry) CMB: +16 CMD: 39

    Feats:
    Weapon Focus (Temple Sword)
    Dodge (bonus)
    Improved Initiative (human bonus)
    Improved Grapple (bonus)
    Power Attack
    Furious Focus
    Improved Trip (bonus)
    Quick Draw
    Greater Grapple
    Improved Critical (Temple Sword) (bonus)

    Skills:
    Stuff, nothing applicable here

    Gear:
    +3 Temple Sword (18330)
    Belt of +4 str (16000)
    Hat of +4 wis (16000)
    Bracers of Armor +2 (4000)
    Ring of Protection +1 (2000)
    Amulet of Natural Armor +1 (2000)
    Haversack (2000)
    Cloak of Resistance +1 (1000)
    670 gold in miscellany

    Sam holds his temple sword in both hands, so his Power Attacking flurry attack routine is:
    +3 temple sword +18/+15/+10/+10, d8+18 dmg (17-20/x2)

    His average damage per round (without using a Ki point) is 55.35. Using a Ki point (or otherwise gaining an additional attack) adds 16.2 DPR, a +1 to hit is worth 5.4 DPR, and +1 to damage is worth 2.46 DPR.

    His expected damage with a single, non-flurry attack using Power Attack (+17, d8+15) is 16.38.

    There are a handful of monk archetypes which contribute to damage. The best are Hungry Ghost and Weapon Adept, although Monk of the Four Winds, Drunken Master, and Ki Mystic can contribute directly or indirectly to damage. Most of these archetypes replace Stunning Fist with a different, weapon-compatible ability; while Sam can't use Stunning Fist with his sword, it would contribute between ~3 DPR (a high-fort enemy who only loses -1 AC when flatfooted) to ~15 DPR (a low-fort enemy who loses -6 AC when flatfooted) on a ki-boosted attack routine if he could use Stunning Fist on his first attack. If you do want to use Stunning Fist with his sword, though, his expected DPR with a +2 ki focus temple sword would be 47.73. Alternately, you could take Cornugon Stun, from Pathfinder Companion: Cheliax.

    Hungry Ghost is the largest contributor to full-attack damage, albeit in a somewhat counterintuitive way. While other monk archetypes get simple damage bonuses, the Hungry Ghost monk refills his ki pool by making critical strikes (or defeating foes). Against a living foe, a Hungry Ghost version of Swordy Sam would generate an average of 1.67 ki points per turn from critical hits; if he's down to his last ki point, he has a ~55% chance to get a critical hit each turn. He can almost always pop a ki point for an extra attack against living foes, as he'll probably be refunded that ki point and more besides. If you'd like this in DPR terms, he does 71.55 DPR unless he hits a long run of bad luck or burns most of his ki points on non-attacking uses; his DPR drops to 64.28 if he only pops a ki point for an extra attack if one of his other attacks generates it for him. Hungry Ghosts also get Punishing Kick 10 times a day (in lieu of Stunning Fist), which despite the name is compatible with weapon attacks. Assuming Ghost!Sam is using a ki point for an extra attack and attempts a Punishing Kick on his first attack, Punishing Kick is worth 4.05 DPR against enemies with a strong (+13) fort save and 7.29 DPR against enemies with a weak (+9) fort save, due to the decreased AC from being prone. (I haven't calculated the AOO from the enemy standing up, but it would also contribute to damage.)

    Weapon Adept grants an additional free feat (since Weapon Focus was already taken) and an additional two damage on all attacks, increasing DPR by 4.92 to 60.27 total, plus an additional 1.44 when using a ki point). It also trades Stunning Fist for Perfect Strike, which the monk can use 10 times a day. Optimal use of Perfect Strike is an involved calculation, but in this example it's worth 11.88 DPR when used on your attack with +15 to hit (and marginally less when used with the others). In general, most players won't be able to get the ideal benefit from Perfect Strike, though, since figuring out optimal use isn't exactly easy. Weapon Master is compatible with Ki Mystic.

    The math behind Perfect Strike:

    Carpy DM did the math (which is a bit beyond my ability) and discovered that the formula for the chance to confirm a crit on three-roll Perfect Strike is:

    u = x^3 + 4x^2y + 2x^2z + 6xyz + 3xy^2

    where x = the percentage chance of rolling a threat, y = the percentage chance of hitting the target's AC without rolling a threat, and z = the percentage chance of rolling low enough to miss the target's AC entirely.

    To illustrate a normal attack, the chance to confirm a crit is simply:

    u = th

    where t = the chance to roll a threat, and h is the chance to hit the target's AC.

    The chance to roll a hit (including crits) with three-roll Perfect Strike is a simpler bit of math:

    g = 1 - (1-h)^3

    where h = the percentage chance to hit the target's AC.

    So. Since we have a chance to hit and a chance to get a confirmed crit, we simply plug that into the damage formula to find out how much damage a Perfect Strike attack does.

    g(d)+ucd

    If we want to find out how much damage we gain from Perfect Strike, we just subtract the normal expected damage from the PS expected damage, getting:

    p = d((g+uc)-(h+tc))

    Or

    p = d(((1 - (1-q)^3) + c(t^3 + 4t^2(h-t) + 2t^2(1-h) + 6t(h-t)(1-h) + 3t(h-t)^2)) - (h + tc))

    where p is the increased damage from using Perfect Strike, and the rest of the terms are the same as in the OP's formula.

    Good luck figuring that out on the fly, once per turn.

    While those are the main two damage-dealing archetypes, there are a few others worth mentioning. Monks of the Four Winds trade Stunning Fist for 10/day Elemental Fist, which is also compatible with weapon attacks despite its name, and contributes an expected ~7.88 DPR. Four Winds is also compatible with Monk of the Sacred Mountain, an excellent defensive archetype. Drunken Masters get extra ki points (which they can stack before a fight, if they know one's coming) and the ability to burn ki extremely inefficiently for extra damage. Ki Mystics simply get a couple extra ki points. Zen Archers and Monks of the Empty Hand have entirely different attack routines, incompatible with the temple sword.


    Hmmmm.....I'm not good at higher-level DPR right now,I'm a bit too tired.I could probably throw in a few builds for lower-levels if that's alright.

    RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32

    sphar wrote:
    Hmmmm.....I'm not good at higher-level DPR right now,I'm a bit too tired.I could probably throw in a few builds for lower-levels if that's alright.

    Up to you, although using the same levels for all the builds make comparison a lot easier.

    RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32

    1 person marked this as a favorite.

    Since we're talking about damage, why not go to that old standby, the zweihander warrior? Zweihander Zelda is Falchion Fred's richer, better-trained sister. She uses material from the Advanced Players Guide, and I went ahead and gave her an elven curve blade instead of a falchion. She also has 62K gold, as opposed to Fred's (erroneous) 45K total.

    Zweihander Zelda, human two-handed fighter 10
    Material used: APG feats, APG Two-Handed Fighter archetype

    Spoiler:

    Ability Scores:
    STR: 22 (+6) (15 base, +2 racial, +1 level, +4 belt)
    DEX: 14 (+2) (13 base, +1 level)
    CON: 14 (+2)
    INT: 10 (+0)
    WIS: 12 (+1)
    CHA: 8 (-1)

    HP: 89 HP (10d10+30)

    Saving Throws:
    Fort: +12 Ref: +8 Will: +9 (+11 against fear, 1/day reroll)

    AC: 26 - Touch 14, Flatfooted 23 (+11 +2 full plate, +2 dex, +1 Amulet of Natural Armor, +1 Ring of Protection, +1 Dodge)

    Attacks: +3 elven curve blade +23/+18, d10+16/d10+19 dmg (15-20/x2)

    Class Abilities:
    Shattering Strike
    Overhand Chop
    Weapon Training 2 (heavy blades)
    Weapon Training 1 (polearms)
    Backswing

    BAB: +10 CMB: +16 CMD: 28

    Feats:
    Exotic Weapon Proficiency (elven curve blade)
    Weapon Focus (elven curve blade) (bonus)
    Power Attack (human bonus)
    Dodge (bonus)
    Iron Will
    Weapon Specialization (elven curve blade) (bonus)
    Improved Iron Will
    Furious Focus (bonus)
    Step Up
    Improved Critical (elven curve blade) (bonus)
    Greater Weapon Focus (elven curve blade)
    Critical Focus (bonus)

    Skills:
    Stuff, whatever

    Gear:
    +3 elven curve blade
    Belt of +4 str
    +2 full plate
    Cloak of Resistance +3
    Handy Haversack
    Amulet of Natural Armor +1
    +2 composite longbow (+6 str mod)
    Ring of Protection +1
    2000 GP in miscellaneous consumables, gear, non-portable goods, etc.

    Zelda's Power Attack routine is:
    +3 elven curve blade +23 (d10+25 dmg, 15-20/x2) / +15 (d10+28 dmg, 15/20/x2)

    Her average damage per round is ~63.29. An additional +1 to-hit is worth ~2.18 DPR (but see below), an additional +1 damage is worth ~2.08 DPR, and an additional full-BAB attack is worth ~33.09 DPR.

    Her practical damage degrades a little less than most PCs' against high-AC attacks, since Critical Focus is entirely wasted on her first attack; against AC 29 or higher, she'd "gain back" 1.83 DPR she'd normally lose due to the higher target AC. Likewise, against AC 30 or higher, a +1 to hit is worth ~4.16 DPR.

    Her expected damage with a standard-action attack (+23, d10+28 dmg) is ~41.37.

    The extra money over Falchion Fred went into improving her defenses. I'm a bit taken aback by how little extra damage Zelda gets from Two-Handed Fighter and Furious Focus; she's only a hair over 3 DPR ahead of Fred. I'm not sure Two-Handed Fighter is really worth it.


    I would like to add that the monk archetype in Ultimate Magic allows any monk to gain the effects of Ki Leech the spell in exchange for a lvl 10 or higher class feature.


    I will edit my build later to reflect the template if you don't mind.

    Alright,third level Dervish Dance Human Fighter with a dip in rogue(I'm using a personal formula,but it still has the same outcome)This assumes flanking.

    20 Dex

    FEATS:Weapon Finesse,Dodge,Weapon Focus(Scimitar),Combat Reflexes,Dervish Dance.

    To-Hit:5(Dex)+1(Weapon Focus)+2(BAB)+2(Flanking)=+10
    Monster AC:16
    Chance-to-Hit:1-.05(16-10-1)=.75(.15 crit chance)
    Damage:1d6(Scimitar)+1d6(Sneak Attack)+5(Dex)=3.5+3.5+5=12 total(24 crit)
    DPR:(.75-.15)*(12)+(.15)*(24)=11.8 DPR : \

    The upside to this build is that it can have a HUGE AC at level 3 without magic items or spells.As it stands it has 22 AC,with a Buckler on his wrist(It's not in his off-hand!).It also actually has a respectable reflex.

    RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32

    sphar wrote:

    I will edit my build later to reflect the template if you don't mind.

    Alright,third level Dervish Dance Human Fighter with a dip in rogue(I'm using a personal formula,but it still has the same outcome)This assumes flanking.

    This qualifies for neither Power Attack nor Piranha Strike, so it's going to fall behind after very low levels. Even if you do have Power Attack, you're going to be behind a fair amount just because of attacking one-handed. It will have nice AC, though.

    Jeranimus Rex wrote:
    I would like to add that the monk archetype in Ultimate Magic allows any monk to gain the effects of Ki Leech the spell in exchange for a lvl 10 or higher class feature.

    Noted, with the caveat that it's only available at level 11 or higher and requires a standard action to use before its shortish duration begins. I am entertained by the fact that you can use it an infinite number of times per day, though.

    RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32

    Here's an update for Farshot Fallon. She didn't change much; all she gained was Point-Blank Master and a bit of strength from an ioun stone (since the original Fallon only had 45K WBL). The Archer archetype in APG is pretty crap, so she's not using that.

    Farshot Fallon, human fighter 10
    Material used: One non-DPR-contributing APG feat

    Spoiler:

    Ability Scores:
    STR: 16 (+3) (13 base, +1 level, +2 ioun stone)
    DEX: 22 (+6) (15 base, +2 racial, +1 level, +4 belt)
    CON: 14 (+2)
    INT: 10 (+0)
    WIS: 12 (+1)
    CHA: 8 (-1)

    HP: 89 HP (10d10+30)

    Saving Throws:
    Fort: +11 Ref: +10 Will: +8 (+10 against fear)

    AC: 24 - Touch 14, Flatfooted 21 (+10 +1 full plate, +3 dex, +1 Ring of Protection)

    Attacks: +3 composite longbow +22(x2)/+22/+17, d8+10 dmg (19-20/x3)

    Class Abilities:
    Weapon Training +2 (bows)
    Weapon Training +1 (heavy blades)
    Armor Training 2

    BAB: +10 CMB: +14 CMD: 28

    Feats:
    Weapon Focus (longbow)
    Deadly Aim (bonus)
    Point Blank Shot (human bonus)
    Rapid Shot (bonus)
    Precise Shot
    Weapon Specialization (longbow) (bonus)
    Point Blank Master
    Manyshot (bonus)
    Iron Will
    Improved Critical (longbow) (bonus)
    Greater Weapon Focus (longbow)
    Critical Focus (bonus)

    Skills:
    Stuff, whatever

    Gear:
    +3 composite longbow (+3 str mod)
    Pale blue ioun stone (+2 str)
    Belt of +4 dex
    +1 full plate
    Cloak of Resistance +2
    Handy Haversack
    +1 greatsword
    Ring of Protection +1
    Lesser Bracers of Archery
    600 GP in miscellaneous consumables, gear, non-portable goods, etc.

    Fallon's Deadly Aim/Rapidshot routine is:
    +3 longbow +19(x2)/+19/+14, d8+16 dmg (19-20/x3)

    Her average damage per round is ~71.34. An additional +1 to-hit is worth ~4.31 DPR, an additional +1 damage is worth 3.48 DPR, and an additional full-BAB attack is worth ~20.30 DPR. Her single-attack damage is ~22.35 DPR, but she'll tend to have a lot more opportunities for full attacks than a typical melee character.

    Archery is still amazing. Point Blank Master makes it even more amazing. Since PBM duplicates the only interesting ability from Archer Fighter, Archer Fighter gets kicked to the curb. You could probably get a little more damage out of her by squeezing her defensive magic items and dex belt to take Greater Bracers of Archery, but I wasn't happy with the defensive sacrifices involved.

    Interesting fact: while Two-Handed Fighter is strictly inferior for a dedicated archer because of the melee-only Weapon Training, Backswing and Overhand Chop apply to bows, since bows are two-handed weapons and those abilities don't specify "melee". This makes switch-hitting fighters a tad more viable.


    Yar.

    I am glad to see the expanded formula with the "cannot be greater/lesser than" and "whichever is" clauses. It addresses the issue of "how can you threaten on a 15+ if you can only hit on a 17+?"

    As for r in the expanded formula, there is a Trait in the APG called Killer. It adds a fixed bonus to critical hits equal to the multiplier on the weapon. ie: x2 = +2 damage.

    Though, now that I've mentioned Traits, I have this feeling that most builds will now have Killer (APG) and Heirloom (Adventurer's Armory) for the extra +1 trait bonus to hit and the +x trait bonus to damage on crits. :/

    edit: What are your thoughts on Target CMD and Flat-Footed AC (as there are abilities that apply the Flat-Footed condition)? For example, Tripping adds the prone condition, which gives a +4 bonus to melee attacks (although you must sacrifice one attack to start with a trip, depending on how difficult the attempt to trip is and how many attacks you can get off and how hard each of those attacks are, it does shift the DPR slightly). Shatter Defenses makes your opponent Flat-Footed to your attack until the end of your next turn (including the rest of your attacks this turn).

    Also FYI, CR10 average saves are High 13, Low 9 (good to know for abilities like Stunning Fist)

    ~P


    2 people marked this as a favorite.
    A Man In Black wrote:

    Level 10, since pretty much all classes are expected to have come into their own by then, plus it's a good round number. If you don't think this is a good level to use, feel free to redo the math for some other level; I know level 10 is arbitrary and any other level from about 4 on would work just as well.

  • Elite array for stats, which is 15 / 14 / 13 / 12 / 10 / 8, arranged however you'd like. While I know most people play with more forgiving point-buys or rolling schemes, this is a baseline. The CR system was originally based around players using elite array or a comparable point buy.
  • Standard wealth by level in magic items, but no magic items limited on a per-day or consumable
  • Firstly, I would like to commend you on your original DPR Olympics thread as it was both entertaining as well as being informative.

    However, I always had problems with 2 of the premises of the theorycrafting because these skewed the results markedly in favour of the Druid and Summoner classes in particular as well 3/4 BAB classes in general.

    The first issue I had was the Elite array. These stats favour the Summoner and the Druid because the damage from the companion animal and the Eidolon are not hindered by having to use the elite array which means a maximum score of 15 in your main attacking and damaging attribute. If you had used the 20 point buy system that is very popular and is used in society play, this would have largely nullified this unfair advantage.

    The second issue is stopping at level 10 which I realise is just an arbitrary choice but it makes a 3/4 BAB classes such as the druid look much better than what they really are. If you had gone to level 11, then full BAB classes would have received a 3rd or possibly 6th attack for off hand which makes a significant difference. Furthermore, this is further compounded by the fact that some of the most powerful feats such as Bleeding Critical require a BAB of 11 which is not available to 3/4 BAB classes until they reach level 15.

    What this means is such classes as the Summoner and Druid look much better compared to full BAB classes than what they really are and this may give readers a false impression on the relative strengths of one DPR build compared to another.

    My intention is not to derail what I consider to be an excellent thread. I just hope people keep these thoughts at the back of their minds when creating their DPR concepts.

    RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32

    Pirate wrote:

    edit: What are your thoughts on Target CMD and Flat-Footed AC (as there are abilities that apply the Flat-Footed condition)? For example, Tripping adds the prone condition, which gives a +4 bonus to melee attacks (although you must sacrifice one attack to start with a trip, depending on how difficult the attempt to trip is and how many attacks you can get off and how hard each of those attacks are, it does shift the DPR slightly). Shatter Defenses makes your opponent Flat-Footed to your attack until the end of your next turn (including the rest of your attacks this turn).

    Also FYI, CR10 average saves are High 13, Low 9 (good to know for abilities like Stunning Fist)

    ~P

    Mostly I've not given target CMD and flat-footed AC any thought, because there's no standard for them at all. Touch AC is just as variable, I just picked an arbitrary target since touch AC comes up more than the others.

    Tripping is rarely a straight damage increase. Even with a 100% chance to trip, tripping is only going to be effective when you have a low chance to hit, a high chance to succeed on a trip, and multiple attacks after the trip. (Roughly expressed, your chance to hit on the sacrificed attack needs to be worth less than the average number of hits you gain for +4 to hit on your remaining attacks multiplied by your chance to trip. This breaks down at high or low chances to hit/crit.)

    I've yet to find an efficient way to use Shatter Defenses under these limitations, because you need to make your opponent shaken/frightened/panicked, hit them with another attack, and then have some attacks remaining afterward to take advantage of the flat-footed condition.

    I keep fooling with intimancers, but I haven't had any luck with anything with PF material. I vaguely recall a working intimancer one of my players had working with the CW samurai (yeah, I know) and some stuff from the 3.5 drow book, but it's been a while since he played that character.

    c873788 wrote:

    The first issue I had was the Elite array. These stats favour the Summoner and the Druid because the damage from the companion animal and the Eidolon are not hindered by having to use the elite array which means a maximum score of 15 in your main attacking and damaging attribute. If you had used the 20 point buy system that is very popular and is used in society play, this would have largely nullified this unfair advantage.

    The second issue is stopping at level 10 which I realise is just an arbitrary choice but it makes a 3/4 BAB classes such as the druid look much better than what they really are. If you had gone to level 11, then full BAB classes would have received a 3rd or possibly 6th attack for off hand which makes a significant difference. Furthermore, this is further compounded by the fact that some of the most powerful feats such as Bleeding Critical require a BAB of 11 which is not available to 3/4 BAB classes until they reach level 15.

    I disagree regarding the druid; druids get a great deal from additional strength, since they tend to have a lot of attacks from wild shape but not great accuracy or base damage. Contrast Sam's gains from +hit or +damage to Zelda's; druids will generally be closer to Sam's attack profile. A decently large percentage of the druid's damage is going to come from the animal companion and won't benefit from higher stats, granted. We'll just have to see how much the druid would get out of a few more points of strength.

    You're right about the summoner. I'm not really unhappy with it, since the summoner will also have a bunch of practical damage from disallowed-by-these-rules buffs, and there's really no way to deal with that without exaggerating the benefit spellcasters get from self-cast buffs.

    I'm not unhappy with level 10 as a snapshot. While there's lots of level 11 shininess, level 11 is also when 3/4 BAB classes get Improved Critical, which is a ~9-13% damage increase pretty much all the time.


    The dpr comparison on a full attack is probably gonna be the 2handed fighter.

    Interestingly level 12 is about the level that Barbs, Dawnflower Dervish and Mobile fighter jump out as DPR kings via pounce/rapid attack. their full attack won't match the 2hander, but they get to do it EVERY round.....


    Yar.

    **MATERIAL USED**
    Core Rule Book (CRB)
    Advanced Players Guide (APG)
    Ultimate Magic (UM)

    ~Jon Little~

    stats:

    Human Monk - Weapon Adept (APG), Qinggong (UM)

    Racial Variant (APG): Heart of the Fields (+5 to Profession: Woodsman, & 1/day can ignore fatigue/exhaustion)

    STR: 20 (14 + 2 race + 2 levels + 2 enh)
    DEX: 14 (12 + 2 enh)
    CON: 10
    INT: 13
    WIS: 17 (15 + 2 enh)
    CHA: 8

    SPEED: 60’ (12 sq)

    HP: 58 (10d8+10)

    FORT: 8 (7 base + 0 con + 1 res)
    REFLEX: 10 (7 base + 2 dex + 1 res)
    WILL: 11 (7 base + 3 wis + 1 res)

    Conditional: +2 vs enchantment effects (Still Mind)
    +1 dodge to Reflex (Boots of Speed. 10 rounds / day)
    no damage on successful reflex saves (Evasion)

    AC: 23 (10 + 3 armor + 2 monk + 2 dex + 3 wis + 1 dodge + 1 natural + 1 deflection)
    FF: 20
    Touch: 19
    CMD: 31 (33 vs Trip) (10 + 7 bab + 2 monk + 5 str + 2 dex + 3 wis + 1 dodge + 1 deflection + 2 feat)

    Conditional: +3 (combat expertise)
    +3 (fighting defensively)
    +6 (total defense)
    +4 (ki point)
    +4 vs ranged attacks (Cloak of Winds. 10 minutes / day)
    +1 dodge (Boots of Speed. 10 rounds / day)

    ATTACK: +3 Quarterstaff +16 (7 base + 5 str + 3 enh + 1 Weapon Focus – 0 Furious Focus Power Attack)

    DAMAGE: 1d6+18, 19+/x2 (7 str (2handed) +3 enh +2 Weapon Specialization + 6 Power Attack)

    FLURRY OF BLOWS (w/power attack): +17/+14/+9/+9 (10 bab + 5 str + 3 enh + 1 WF – 2 FoB – 0/3 PA)

    FOB DAMAGE: 1d6+19, 19+/x2 (5 str + 3 enh + 2 WS + 9 PA)

    10/day Perfect Strike
    8/day Ki Point for one extra attack at highest
    10/day Boots of Speed for +1 to hit and one extra attack at highest

    CMB: +15 (+21 to Trip) (10 bab + 5 str + 2 feat + 3 enh + 1 WF)

    SKILLS
    50 points to spend

    FEATS
    Human bonus: Nimble Moves (ignore 5’ of difficult terrain)
    Weapon Adept Bonus 1: Perfect Strike (APG) (scales. 3 rolls atm)
    Monk Bonus 1: Unarmed Strike (scales. 1d10 atm)
    Monk Bonus 1: Combat Reflexes
    Level 1: Combat Expertise
    Weapon Adept Bonus 2*: Weapon Focus: Quarterstaff
    Monk Bonus 2: Dodge
    Level 3: Power Attack (-3/+9 with 2-handed FoB)
    Qinggong: Ki Stand (UM) (stand up from prone as swift. Use 1 ki to avoid AoO)
    Level 5: Furious Focus (APG) (-0 from PA on first attack)
    Weapon Adept 6*: Weapon Specialization: Quarterstaff
    Monk Bonus 6: Improved Trip
    Level 7: Quarterstaff Master (UM)
    Level 9: Tripping Staff (UM) (treat quarterstaffs as Trip weapons)
    Monk Bonus 10: Improved Critical: Quarterstaff

    * Weapon Adept states that these feats are gained as a bonus in place of the Evasion ability. It does not say that it replaces the Monk’s Bonus Feat ability, nor does it say that these feats must be taken in place of a monks normal Bonus Feats, thus I have both the Weapon Adept bonus feats and the Monk Bonus Feats

    ABILITIES
    Heart of the Fields (APG): 1/day ignore fatigue/exhaustion
    AC Bonus (+2+wis)
    FoB
    Bonus Feats
    Perfect Strike (Weapon Adept - APG) (3 rolls to attack) (replaces Stunning Fist)
    Way of the Weapon Master (Weapon Adept – APG) (adds WF @ 2 & WS @ 6) (replaces Evasion)
    Fast Movement (+30)
    Still Mind
    Ki Pool (1/2 level + wis)
    Slow Fall (50’)
    Ki Stand (Qinggong - UM) (replaced High Jump)
    Purity of Body (immune to disease)
    Cloak of Winds (Qinggong – UM) (APG spell) (1 min/lv. Self only. 1 ki to activate) (replaces Wholeness of Body)
    Evasion (replaces Improved Evasion)

    EQUIPMENT
    +3 Quarterstaff (18300 gp)
    Bracers of Armor +3 (9000 gp)
    Amulet of natural Armor +1 (2000 gp)
    Ring of Protection +1 (2000 gp)
    Cloak of Resistance +1 (1000 gp)
    Belt of Physical Might (Str+Dex) +2 (10000 gp)
    Headband of Inspired Wisdom +2 (4000 gp)
    Boots of Speed (12000 gp)
    Handy Haversack (2000 gp)
    Consumables/Left Over (1700 gp)

    DPR:
    Ki is limited to 8 rounds per day. Swift action activation.
    Haste is limited to 10 rounds per day. Free action activation.
    Perfect Strike is limited to 10 times per day, once per round. Free action activation.

    Single Attack: 15.3725

    Each +1 to hit adds: 1.1825

    Flurry of Blows: 45.7875
    Flurry of Blows w/Ki: 59.4
    Flurry of Blows w/Haste: 65.5875
    *Flurry of Blows w/Haste + Ki*: 80.4375

    (Assuming Trip is successful)
    Trip + Flurry of Blows: 43.3125
    Trip + Flurry of Blows w/Ki: 61.875
    Trip + Flurry of Blows w/Haste: 66.825
    *Trip + Flurry of Blows w/Haste + Ki*: 86.625

    Each +1 to hit adds: 1.2375 per attack

    Perfect Strike on Single Attack: 25.6575625
    Perfect Strike on Single Attack w/Haste: 26.23

    Perfect Strike on FoB 1st attack (+17): 55.9125
    Perfect Strike on FoB 2nd attack (+14) instead: 57.3553125
    Perfect Strike on FoB 3rd attack (+9) instead: 55.8225

    Perfect Strike on FoB 2nd attack w/Ki: 70.9678125
    Perfect Strike on FoB 2nd attack w/Haste: 76.8375
    *Perfect Strike on FoB 2nd attack w/Haste + Ki*: 91.6875

    (Assuming Trip is Successful)
    Perfect Strike on Trip + FoB 1st attack (+14): 52.6640625
    Perfect Strike on Trip + FoB 2nd attack (+9): 55.0125

    Perfect Strike on Trip + FoB 2nd attack w/Ki: 73.575
    Perfect Strike on Trip + FoB 2nd attack w/Haste: 78.3928125
    *Perfect Strike on Trip + FoB 2nd attack w/Haste + Ki*: 98.1928125

    * = It is arguable whether or not the extra attack from Ki stacks with the extra attack from Haste. If you feel that they do not, please ignore this line.

    The amount a +1 to hit adds to Perfect Strike is not constant. For example: on a single attack (as above), going from +16 to +17 adds (0.572438) while going from +17 to +18 adds (0.443437). The bonus that Perfect Strike gives in relation to your attack bonus appears to be on a bell-curve. In the middle it is worth the most, while at the really low attack bonuses and really high attack bonuses it is not worth nearly as much.

    Jon Little is not as consistently high as a Hungry Ghost Sam (due to the HGSam’s ability to replenish his Ki on crits and kills), but still admirable considering he's not using a temple sword. HGSam being able to inflict damage in the same attack that knocks his opponent Prone is also an advantage (Jon here does 0 damage when he knocks his foes Prone).

    EDIT: oops. I missed the part where AMiB said no items that have a /day power. Ignore all the lines that say Haste then. That also mean Jon Little has 13700 gp unspent. hrm. What to buy? Probably something to boots AC or HP (ioun stone of +2 con for 8000 and/or upgrade rings/amulet/bracers/cloak).

    ~P


    Two comments, first if Sam takes the Qinggong archetype and trades out either high jump, slow fall or wholeness of body for barkskin he can drop his hat of wisdom to +2, get rid of the bracers of armor, and amulet of natural armor to upgrade his sword to +4 and have 3000 gold left over to play with while maintaining the same AC when his barkskin is active. Strictly speaking a level 10 character cannot have a +4 weapon as it just violates the WBL guidelines but as two weapon builds use two +3 weapons which have a larger combined cost I think it is reasonable to allow.

    With a +4 sword his average damage per round (without using a Ki point) is 63.46. Using a Ki point (or otherwise gaining an additional attack) adds 18.33 DPR, a +1 to hit is worth 5.64 DPR, and +1 to damage is worth 2.52 DPR.

    Second, all the fighter archetypes lose armor training so Zelda's maximum DEX bonus is only +1 dropping her AC by one.

    Silver Crusade

    Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

    Dotting for further reference. Great work MiB and everyone, and the Monk results are interesting to say at least.

    Liberty's Edge

    Dotting.

    Also, would the alchemist formula that is a self buff that allows them to use a potion without actually using it be allowed? No expendable is consumed and it is a self-only buff.

    RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32

    ShadowcatX wrote:

    Dotting.

    Also, would the alchemist formula that is a self buff that allows them to use a potion without actually using it be allowed? No expendable is consumed and it is a self-only buff.

    That's fine as long as the potion buff otherwise follows the buff rules for duration/actions.

    Quote:
    Strictly speaking a level 10 character cannot have a +4 weapon as it just violates the WBL guidelines but as two weapon builds use two +3 weapons which have a larger combined cost I think it is reasonable to allow.

    No, not really. Perhaps in a character who was so naturally tough that they could neglect defensive items, but Jon has 58 HP. :/


    gotta love that this thread is alive again.

    Im planning to build and submit a barbarian (yes i do love that class), and just for fun a dualist. Iwe been dying to see the math on that class but havent really gone through all the stuff yet. Perhaps i will get around to the dualist tomorrow

    Liberty's Edge

    Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

    I'd like to see a Magus build or two to see how they stack up


    Yar.

    Heh, yeah, Jon is "Little" not just for the Robin Hood reference. Though switching the Boots of an Ioun Stone of Con +2 will bring him up to 68 (anything is better than 58).

    Oh well, this next monk is far superior (though in part due to the expanded source list) ... (though his HP is only marginally better, and he has DR).

    **MATERIAL USED**
    Core Rule Book (CRB)
    Advanced Players Guide (APG)
    Kingmaker Players Guide (KPG)
    Faction Guide (FG)
    Curse of the Crimson Throne 4: A History of Ashes (CotCT4)

    ~Vega Surtova~

    stats:

    Human Monk – Hungry Ghost – Sacred Mountain (APG)

    Racial Variant (APG): Heart of the Fields (+5 to Profession: Gardener, & 1/day can ignore fatigue/exhaustion)

    Traits: Noble Born: Surtova (KPG) (+2 damage vs. Flat-Footed opponents)
    Honored Fist of the Society (FG) (+1 Ki)

    STR: 8
    DEX: 16 (14 +2 enh)
    CON: 10
    INT: 12
    WIS: 23 (15 + 2 + 2 level + 4 enh)
    CHA: 13

    SPEED: 60’ (12 sq)

    HP: 68 (10d8+20)
    DR: 1/-

    FORT: 9 (7 base + 0 con + 2 res)
    REFLEX: 12 (7 base + 3 dex + 2 res)
    WILL: 15 (7 base + 6 wis + 2 res)

    Conditional: +2 vs enchantment effects

    AC: 28 / 30 (10 + 3 armor + 3 monk + 3 dex + 6 wis + 1 dodge + 1 natural + 1 deflection + 2 shield)
    FF: 24 / 26
    Touch: 24
    CMD: 31 / 33 (10 + 7 bab + 3 monk + 0 str + 3 dex + 6 wis + 1 dodge + 1 deflection + 2 shield)

    Conditional: +2 shield bonus when starts and ends turn in same place
    +4 vs AoO’s due to movement

    ATTACK: Unarmed Strike +14 (7 base + 6 wis + 1 Weapon Focus)

    DAMAGE: 2d6+6+1d6, 20/x2^special (non-lethal) (counts as Magic & Lawful)

    ^ crits cause the Frightened condition

    FLURRY OF BLOWS: +15/+15/+15*/+15*/+10/+10 (10 bab + 6 wis + 1 WF – 2 FoB)

    * = Medusa’s Wrath

    FOB DAMAGE: 2d6+6+1d6(+2), 20/x2^special (+2 only vs. Flat-Footed)

    12/day Ki Point for one extra attack at highest

    CMB: +17 (10 bab + 6 wis + 1 WF)

    SKILLS
    Intimidate +27 (10 ranks + 3 class + 1 cha + 3 comp + 4 persuasive + 6 skill focus)

    FEATS
    Human Bonus: Persuasive (+2 / +4 to Intimidate)
    Hungry Ghost 1: Punishing Kick (knock Prone. Fort DC 21)
    Monk Bonus 1: Unarmed Strike
    Monk Bonus 1: Dodge
    Level 1: Skill Focus: Intimidate (+3 / +6 to Intimidate)
    Sacred Mountain Bonus 2: Toughness
    Monk Bonus 2: Combat Reflexes
    Level 3: Enforcer (APG - non-lethal enables Free Intimidate check. crits cause Frightened condition)
    Level 5: Weapon Focus: Unarmed Strike
    Monk Bonus 6: Mobility
    Level 7: Dazzling Display
    Level 9: Shatter Defenses
    Monk Bonus 10: Medusa’s Wrath

    ABILITIES
    Heart of the Fields (APG): 1/day ignore fatigue/exhaustion
    AC Bonus
    FoB
    Bonus Feats
    Punishing Kick (Hungry Ghost - APG) (Fort DC 21 or Prone) (replaces Stunning Fist)
    Iron Monk (Sacred Mountain – APG) (Toughness & +1 Natural Armor) (replaces Evasion)
    Fast Movement (+30)
    Still Mind
    Ki Pool (1/2 level + wis)
    Bastion Stance (Sacred Mountain – APG) cannot be moved) (replaced Slow Fall)
    Iron Limb Defense (Sacred Mountain – APG) (2 shield when stationary) (replaced High Jump)
    Steal Ki (Hngry Ghost – APG) (crits and kills replenish Ki) (replaces Purity of Body)
    Life Funnel (Hungry Ghost – APG) (crits and kills replenish HP) (replaces Wholeness of Body)
    Adamantine Monk (Sacred Mountain - APG) (DR 1/-) (replaces Improved Evasion)

    EQUIPMENT
    Amulet of Mighty Fists: Guided* (CotCT4) Merciful (20000 gp)
    Bracers of Armor +3 (9000 gp)
    Ring of Protection +1 (2000 gp)
    Belt of Incredible Dexterity +2 (4000 gp)
    Headband of Inspired Wisdom +4 (16000 gp)
    Circlet of Persuasion (4500 gp)
    Cloak of Resistance +2 (4000 gp)
    Handy Haversack (2000 gp)
    Consumables/Left Over (500 gp)

    * = The Guided weapon property (CotCT 4, page 22) allows one to use their Wisdom modifier instead of the Strength for attack & damage rolls. The bonus is never increased for 2-handing, and you suffer a -2 to hit if you try to use Str instead of Wis.

    DPR:
    Ki is limited to 12* rounds per day. Swift action activation.
    Punishing Kick is limited to 10 times per day, once per round. Free action activation.

    * = Crits and kills (enemies reduced to 0 hp) replenishes Ki

    Single Attack: 9.4325 non-lethal

    Low End: Flurry of Blows if Intimidate fails and PK fails and no Ki used: 32.585 non-lethal

    High End: Medusa’s Wrath Flurry of Blows (Intimidate & Punishing Kick succeed on first attack) w/Ki: 100.61 non-lethal

    Each +1 to hit adds: 1.15 to 1.25 per attack (if foe is Flat-Footed or not) (or up to +8.75 per round)

    Punishing Kick DC 21
    Chance of working on High Save: 35%
    Chance of working on a Low Save: 55%

    Intimidate at +27
    Chance of working: 100% (barring Immunity or exceptionally high Wisdom or Sense Motive scores)

    After doing the Perfect Strike math from the last build, my mind is fried. I have no desire to figure out the chance per hit that a creature will become shaken, causing the likelihood of being Flat-Footed on the next successful hit, causing damage to go up a non-multiplying 2 points per hit, combined with the chance to get off a Punishing Kick on the first attack to make them prone as well (and the variable adjustments that will make on AC), etc. Instead I’ve given the best and worst, along with a rough chance of the effects going off. If anyone is willing to deal with all those variables for a potential 7 attacks, be my guest (as I’d love to see something more accurate).

    Intimidate build or "Intimancer". Enforcer gives a free Intimidate check for each hit that causes non-lethal damage. The shaken condition lasts for a number of rounds equal to the damage dealt. Crits do the same but also cause the Frightened condition for 1 round. At CR10, the highest HD you should find is Fey at 17 HD. The DC to Intimidate a foe is 10+HD+wisdom modifier. So baring really high enemy Wisdom scores, with a +27 Intimidate check, everything not immune to fear will be shaken (even on a rolled 1 as there is no auto-fail on skill checks). Once shaken, the next hit causes them to become Flat-Footed until the end of the next round (which includes the rest of the attacks for this round). Each hit on the reduced AC (based on the given touch AC, FF AC should be 22) causes an extra 2 points of damage (due to the Trait: Noble Born: Surtova), including the 2 extra attacks from Medusa’s Wrath. If the first hit is also a Punishing Kick, they are Prone as well (meaning if everything goes off, the Target AC is 24 vs 1st attack, 20 vs 2nd attack, and only 18 vs 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th & 7th attacks)

    ~P


    Bump for the thread.Has anyone done a druid build yet?

    Liberty's Edge

    Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
    sphar wrote:
    Bump for the thread.Has anyone done a druid build yet?

    There was one the last time this went around, and I can't think of a whole lot of new options that would change the numbers substantially. Note however that there are some theorycraft points raised about the druid and its spellcasting ability for this purpose that didn't really ever get resolved.

    nicklas Læssøe wrote:
    a dualist. Iwe been dying to see the math on that class but havent really gone through all the stuff yet. Perhaps i will get around to the dualist tomorrow

    Without running through the full build, the best numbers I'm coming up with for a duelist are weapon master fighter 7/duelist 3, either using a scimitar and Dervish Dance or an Aldori dueling sword and Aldori Dueling Mastery.

    RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32

    Pirate wrote:

    ~Vega Surtova~

    [...]

    After doing the Perfect Strike math from the last build, my mind is fried. I have no desire to figure out the chance per hit that a creature will become shaken, causing the likelihood of being Flat-Footed on the next successful hit, causing damage to go up a non-multiplying 2 points per hit, combined with the chance to get off a Punishing Kick on the first attack to make them prone as well (and the variable adjustments that will make on AC), etc.

    I can do the math, but we need a Vega 1.1 first, because I see some optimization issues.

    This is technically an illegal-by-this-thread's-rules build, in a way that makes the character suboptimal. Guided is a special, oddball property and a keystone of the build, but merciful isn't. Merciful is just nonlethal fiery, and it gimps the build to boot, since (according to my napkin math) it's only really useful when attacking a non-lethal-susceptible foe that's immune to fear or flatfootedness. Other than paladins or higher-level barbarians or rogues, there aren't too many enemies that fit that description. The accuracy is important for triggering the secondary effects; even if it's a DPR loss for a one-round measurement, it's more valuable to be able to shake/frighten/flatfoot enemies for future rounds or for your allies. Again, practical builds.

    Also without the critty schtick, Hungry Ghost loses all of its steam. Vega only has a ~9.17% chance to generate a ki point each round, or an expected ki generation per full attack of 0.095 ki points per turn. That's awful. (It's a bit better when he gets his explosion of extra attacks and whatnot from debuffs, but not that much better.) While Ghost!Sam is self-sustaining with points left over, Vega is very much not. Plus, Stunning Fist triggers Medusa's Wrath, while Punishing Kick does not. I'm pretty sure Hungry Ghost is just gimping Vega.

    Once we have a revised Vega, I can do the math for his damage.


    You say harsh words, you get harsh words.

    Hannah of the Harsh Words:

    A sneak, a face and a glass cannon at the same time.

    7th level Bard (Word Striker)/ 3ed Level Rogue halfling

    Ability Scores:
    STR: 8 (-1) (10 base, -2 racial)
    DEX: 16 (+3) (13 base, +2 racial + 1 level)
    CON: 14 (+2)
    INT: 12 (+1)
    WIS: 8 (-1)
    CHA: 22 (+6) (15 base, +2 racial, +1 level, +4 Headband)

    Hit dice: 10d8 +20 (Con) + 7 (Favored Class) (8+4.5*9+20 +7= 75)

    Saving Throws:
    Fort +8 = +2 (bard) +1 (rogue) + 2 (CON) + 2 (Resistance) + 1 (Competence)
    Reflex +14 = +5 (bard) +3 (rogue) + 3 (DEX) + 2 (Resistance) + 1 (Competence)
    Will +8 = +5 (bard) +1 (rogue) -1 (WIS) + 2 (Resistance) + 1 (Competence)

    Armor Class: 23
    (10 + 6 (Chain Shirt) +4 (Shield) +3 Dex)

    Class Abilities:
    Cantrips (Detect Magic, Read Magic, Prestigidation, Mending, Mage Hand, Sift)
    Spells of up to 3ed level (6/5/2 per day)
    (Ear Piercing Scream, Expiditious Retreat, Grease, Vanish, Anticipate Peril)
    (Heroism, Invisibility, Mirror Image, Gallant Inspiration)
    (Haste, Confusion)
    Bardic Knowledge
    Performance: (Countersong, Distraction, Fascinate, Inspire courage, Wordstrike, Weird Words) (4+6(Cha)+2*6 + 6(extra performance) = 28 rounds).
    2 Versatile Performances (Comedy: Bluff & Intimidate . Oratory: Diplomacy & Sense Motive)
    Well Versed
    Lore Master (1/day)
    Sneak Attack (+2d6)
    Trap Sense+1
    Trap Finding
    Rogue Talent (Fast Stealth?)

    BAB: +7

    Traits: Feats:
    Noble Born: Surtova (KPG) (+2 damage vs. Flat-Footed opponents)
    Reactionay (+2 on initiative)

    Feats:
    Point Blank Shot
    Extra Performance
    Skill Focus (Stealth)
    Eldritch Heritage (Umbral : Cloak of Shadows)
    (1 Free)

    Skills:
    Stealth, Perception, UMD, Perform (Dance), Perform (Oratory), Disable Device, Perform (Comedy),
    All Knowledges (1 rank)

    Gear (62,000gp)
    Headband of Alluring Charisma +4 (16,000 gp)
    +2 mithral chain shirt (5,100 gp)
    Cloak of Resistance +2 (4,000 gp)
    Cracked Pale Green Prism Ioun Stone (+1 Competence to all saves) (4000 gp)
    Handy Haversack (2,000 gp)
    Darkwood Heavy Wooden Shield +2 (4,257 gp)
    35357 used, 25000 or so for customizing…
    I’d suggest a +2 to CON, a +2 to WIS, A Rod of Metamagic Extend Lesser (gotta keep Heroism going) Maybe luck blade that’s out of wishes.

    Precast Buffs: Heroism

    Hannah relies on the interpretation that Weird words can dump multiple attacks on a target, if the user chooses.

    Attacks:
    Weird Words – 7 attacks, 1d8+6(Cha)+1(PBS), ranged touch attack at +13 (7 Bab + 3 Dex + 1 PBS +2 Heroism), fort save for 1/2 dmg

    Hannah's preferred attack mode is to sneak up on something using all that stealth she's got (10 Ranks, +3 Trained, +3 Dex, +6 SF, Cloak of Shadows, assorted invisibility spells)...and Wierd words them for 7 touch attacks vs flat footed touch ac at +13 to hit. Each attack does 1d8+7 fort save for 1/2 + 2d6 sneak +2 for flat footed.

    DPAttack = h(d+s)+ft(cd+cb+r)= 0.95*(11.5+7)+0.95*0.05*(1*11.5) = 20.02125

    h = 0.95
    d = 11.5
    s = 7
    t = 0.05
    f = .95
    c = 1
    b = 0
    r = 0

    DPR = 7 * DPA = 7*20.02125 = 140.1488, less FORT saves of course

    Even without sneak, it's still pretty punchy.

    DPR = 80.29875, less FORT saves of course

    If anyone has any suggestions for calculating with the Fort Saves, suggestions are welcome.

    The build has not peaked - 3 more levels of Bard will add another 3 attacks, more rogue (or Arcane Trickster) levels will add sneak attack, and level 11 will bring improved Eldritch Heritage (Shadow Well), leading to turns that look like Weird Words (standard action), Move (move action), Stealth check (part of move action, using Shadow Well to hide in plain sight). I'm also sure that I have missed some way of boosting the damage from Weird words...


    Yar.

    pad300:
    What you need to do is figure out what the average damage per hit is with the part that allows the save first, then put it into the DPR formula. You will also need to create two DPR lists: one for High save enemies, and one for Low save enemies. The average save bonus for a CR 10 baddie is High +13, low +9.

    ~aside~ I'm not actually that good at making up formulae (I found HS math both easy but more so incredibly boring, so I've never pursued it's study afterwards... thus I'm no longer as good at it as I could be), however, I am good at figuring stuff like this out in excel (where you can make a full on chart/spreadsheet).

    The part of your attack that allows a save does 1d8+7, with sneak and the Surtovan bonus being added after (ie: don't multiply + not subject to save). The save DC is 10 + half bard level + cha. So 19 for Hannah. Thus, a high save baddie makes it's save on a roll of 6+, while a low save baddie makes it's save on a roll of 10+. Knowing this, we can figure out what the average damage per attack is. For a high save baddie, 5 times out of 20 it will take the full 11.5 damage, and 15/20 it will take half that (5.75). Averaging this we see that the average damage a high save baddie will take (before taking into account attack rolls, which the DPR formula does for us) is 7.1875.

    =((11.5*5)+(5.75*15))/20 = 7.1875

    Plug this number into the DPR formula, and you will get a more accurate DPR that includes saves.

    =0.95*(7.1875+9)+(0.05*0.95*1*7.1875) = 15.71953125 per attack vs Flat Footed opponents with High Fort saves

    So if all 7 attacks are with this formula, DPR vs FF High Save = 110.0367188

    Low fort save baddies would be ((11.5*9)+(5.75*11))/20 = 8.3375

    =0.95*(8.3375+9)+(0.05*0.95*1*8.3375) = 16.86665625 per attack vs Flat Footed opponents with Low Fort saves

    So if all 7 attacks are with this formula, DPR vs FF Low Save = 118.0665938

    **These numbers assume you get off your full attak agaisnt a Flat-Footed opponent.**

    AMiB:
    Yeah, Hungry Ghost was added somewhat on a whim. I think the flavor is cool, but it's not what he originally was (which was Ki Mystic - Sacred Mountain). The extra Ki and the ability to let your allies reroll missed attacks and saves is an awesome party favor (seriously, my group loved it when Vega gave them combat advice when they were failing).

    I don't see how Merciful is only affective against creatures with fear immunity. What does fear immunity have to do with Merciful at all? The only creatures that are listed as immune to non-lethal damage are Undead and Constructs. Everything else is susceptible to non-lethal damage (even creatures with fast healing and regeneration). Either way, I'll switch it out for a +1 instead if that is your wish. Vega will just choose to do nonlethal instead of automatically always doing nonlethal.

    I will officially redo Vega without Hungry Ghost a bit later today. I plan on changing a few things here and there while still using the above listed sources. One of the feats he used to have (6th level bonus instead of Mobility) before Hungry Ghost was added was Ki Diversity: Dim Mak from the Faction Guide. It allows you to spend a Ki to make your next Stunning Fist attack as a touch attack. Full damaging non-lethal Stunning Fist touch attack with Enforcer should help a fair bit with the accuracy issue and getting the attack-burst to go off.

    Anyways, that is for later today.

    ~P


    Great thread MB!

    A humble question.
    If DR would have been added to the Equation, which class/clesses would bennefit from it? If the working level would have been 12 the fighter could pick penetrating strike, but since they can pick it at level 10 I wonder which class would benefit from fighting monsters with DR.

    Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32

    Zark wrote:

    Great thread MB!

    A humble question.
    If DR would have been added to the Equation, which class/clesses would bennefit from it? If the working level would have been 12 the fighter could pick penetrating strike, but since they can pick it at level 10 I wonder which class would benefit from fighting monsters with DR.

    1) Any class that ignores DR like paladins

    2) Check the extra attack number. In general, the higher that number the less DPR you lose from DR.
    3) Alternatively, the higher the number of attacks, the more hosed you are by DR.
    4) People who actually buy +3 - +5 weapons as opposed to using GMW benefit. This may also be a slight benefit to people who use just one weapon on the basis of cost.
    5) Archers. Material DR on an arrow is cheap so cheap that most archers carry them as a practical matter.


    2 people marked this as a favorite.

    I thought of a bit more, and used up a bunch of the customization space to push the damage a bit higher… I also implemented Pirate's suggestion for the DPR calc's.

    Hannah of the Harsh Words V2.0:

    A sneak, a face and a glass cannon at the same time.
    7th level Bard (Word Striker)/ 3ed Level Rogue halfling
    Ability Scores:
    STR: 8 (-1) (10 base, -2 racial)
    DEX: 16 (+3) (13 base, +2 racial + 1 level)
    CON: 14 (+2)
    INT: 12 (+1)
    WIS: 8 (-1)
    CHA: 22 (+6) (15 base, +2 racial, +1 level, +4 Headband)

    Hit dice: 10d8 +20 (Con) + 7 (Favored Class) (8+4.5*9+20 +7= 75)

    Saving Throws:
    Fort +9 = +2(bard) +1(rogue) + 2(CON) + 2(Resistance) + 1(Competence) + 1(Racial)
    Reflex +15 = +5(bard) +3(rogue) + 3(DEX) + 2(Resistance) + 1(Competence) + 1(Racial)
    Will +9 = +5(bard) +1(rogue) -1(WIS) + 2(Resistance) + 1(Competence) + 1(Racial)

    Armor Class: 24 (= 10 + 6 (Chain Shirt) +4 (Shield) +3 (Dex) + 1 (small))

    Class Abilities:
    Cantrips (Detect Magic, Read Magic, Prestigidation, Mending, Mage Hand, Sift)
    Spells of up to 3ed level (6/5/2 per day)
    (Ear Piercing Scream, Expiditious Retreat, Grease, Vanish, Anticipate Peril)
    (Heroism, Invisibility, Mirror Image, Gallant Inspiration)
    (Haste, Confusion)
    Bardic Knowledge
    Performance: (Countersong, Distraction, Fascinate, Inspire courage, Wordstrike, Weird Words) (4+6(Cha)+2*6 + 6(extra performance) = 28 rounds).
    2 Versatile Performances (Comedy: Bluff & Intimidate . Oratory: Diplomacy & Sense Motive)
    Well Versed
    Lore Master (1/day)
    Sneak Attack (+2d6)
    Trap Sense+1
    Trap Finding
    Rogue Talent (Fast Stealth?)
    BAB: +7

    Racial Traits:
    Small, Slow Speed, Fearless, Halfling Luck, Keen Senses, Swift as Shadows (alternate, APG), Halfling Weapon Familiarity

    Traits:
    Noble Born: Surtova (KPG) (+2 damage vs. Flat-Footed opponents)
    Reactionay (+2 on initiative)

    Feats:
    Point Blank Shot
    Extra Performance
    Skill Focus (Stealth)
    Eldritch Heritage (Umbral : Cloak of Shadows)
    Ability Focus (Weird Words)

    Skills:
    Stealth(10 Ranks, +3 Trained, +3 Dex, +6 SF, +4 Small+ Cloak of Shadows, assorted invisibility spells)
    Perception, UMD, Perform (Dance), Perform (Oratory), Disable Device, Perform (Comedy),
    All Knowledges (1 rank)
    Gear (62,000gp)
    Headband of Alluring Charisma +4 (16,000 gp)
    +2 mithral chain shirt (5,100 gp)
    Cloak of Resistance +2 (4,000 gp)
    Cracked Pale Green Prism Ioun Stone (+1 Competence to all saves) (4000 gp)
    Handy Haversack (2,000 gp)
    Darkwood Heavy Wooden Shield +2 (4,257 gp)
    Sniper Googles (20,000 gp)
    55357 used, 6000 or so for customizing…
    I’d suggest a +2 to CON …

    Precast Buffs: Heroism
    Hannah relies on the interpretation that Weird words can dump multiple attacks on a target, if the user chooses.
    Attacks:
    Weird Words – 7 attacks, 1d8+6(Cha)+1(PBS), ranged touch attack at +14 (7 Bab + 3 Dex + 1 PBS +2 Heroism + 1 Small), fort save (DC 21) for 1/2 dmg
    Hannah's preferred attack mode is to sneak up on something using all that stealth she's got...and Wierd words them for 7 touch attacks vs flat footed touch ac at +13 to hit.
    Each attack does 1d8+7 fort save for 1/2 + 2d6 sneak +2 for flat footed +4 for sniper googles.
    Assuming a high fort save (+13), the 1d8+7 becomes = ((11.5*7)+(5.75*13))/20 = 7.7625
    Assuming a low fort save (+9), the 1d8+7 becomes = ((11.5*11)+(5.75*9))/20 = 8.9125
    DPAttack = h(d+s)+ft(cd+cb+r)= 0.95*(d+13)+0.95*0.05*(1*d) = 20.0931 or 21.2402
    h = 0.95
    d = 7.7625 or 8.9125
    s = 13
    t = 0.05
    f = .95
    c = 1
    b = 0
    r = 0
    DPR = 7 * DPA = 140.6517 or 148.6815 respectively

    Without sneaking up:
    DPR = 54.3375 or 62.3875 respectively


    First I'd just like to say that level 10 makes full BAB seem not quite as much better than 3/4 BAB than it really is. At levels 6,7,11,12,13,14,16,17,18,19, and 20 the full BAB classes have more attacks than a 3/4 BAB class. Level 10 is one of the few levels where this advantage is not present. However, I'll try my hand at level 10 DPR.

    Note that I will be including a 10/day usable item in my DPR (boots of speed). I'll include numbers with and without actually using the item. In my experience, a full adventuring day can be had without depleting all 10 uses, since I only bother on full attacks. Also, no pre-battle preparation.

    Material Used: Core, APG, AA

    Half-Orc Barb 1/Two-Handed Fighter 9

    Spoiler:
    STR 15+2[racial]+1[level]+4[rage]+4[belt]=26
    Other stats irrelevant

    Equipment: [lvl 10 WBL = 62000]
    Belt of Giant STR [16000]
    Gloves of Dueling [15000]
    Boots of Speed [12000]
    Heirloom +2 furious Elven Curve Blade [18080]
    Leftovers: 920

    Alternate Racial Traits
    Toothy

    Traits
    Heirloom Weapon [Elven Curve Blade]
    ????

    Feats
    1. Power Attack [Level 1]
    2. Weapon Focus [ECB] [Fighter 1]
    3. Extra Rage [Level 3]
    3. Improved Critical [ECB] [switched in at fighter 8]
    5. Desperate Battler [Level 5]
    5. Weapon Specialization [ECB] [Fighter 4]
    7. Extra Rage [Level 7]
    7. Blind-Fight [Fighter 6]
    9. Raging Vitality [Level 9]
    9. Greater Weapon Focus [ECB] [Fighter 8]

    Attack Roll Calculation

    Spoiler:
    BAB 10
    STR 8
    Trait 1 [Heirloom weapon], 0 bite
    Enhance 4 [+2 furious], 0 bite
    Training 4 [Fighter, Gloves of Dueling], 0 bite
    Focus 2 [Weapon Focus + Greater], 0 bite
    Morale 1 [Desperate Battler]
    Power -3

    =+27/+22/+16(bite)

    Or when hasted:

    =+28/+28/+23/+17(bite)

    Average Damage Calculation

    Spoiler:

    Weapon 5.5, 2.5 bite
    STR 12 first, 16 iteratives, 4 bite
    Enhance 4, 0 bite
    Training 4, 0 bite
    Specialization 2, 0 bite
    Morale 1
    Power 9, 3 bite
    = 37.5 (first), 41.5 (iteratives), 10.5 (bite)

    Attacks with Damages

    Spoiler:

    All are 15-20/x2 crit, except bite which is 20/x2

    +27 (37.5) / +22 (41.5) / +16 (10.5)

    or Hasted:

    +28 (37.5) / +28 (41.5) / +23 (41.5) / +17 (10.5)

    DPR per swing vs. AC24
    46.3125 / 51.2525 / 7.16625 = 104.7313

    Or when using one of the 10 rounds of haste per day:

    46.3125 / 51.2525 / 51.2525 / 7.7175 = 156.535

    Also, when only a single attack is available, that's 51.2525 DPR.

    Realistically, though, I'd have a +2 cloak of resist and some mistmail (20% concealment all day until an effect causes the mist to dissipate). This would force the weapon to go down to +1 furious, lowering DPR slightly. Haste full attacking would be 152.83 DPR. If you're not counting my haste even though I've got 10 rounds of it, then you can just redistribute that 12000gp to those items. I can pretty much guarantee that a level 10 adventurer will be unlikely to need more than 10 rounds of 152.83 DPR per day, though.


    pad300 wrote:
    Hannah's preferred attack mode is to sneak up on something using all that stealth she's got...and Wierd words them for 7 touch attacks vs flat footed touch ac at +13 to hit.

    Unfortunately, the only kind of stealth which typically would work for this purpose is greater invisibility. Normal invisibility or a stealth check will make your position known after the first attack. To snipe with stealth, you can only make one attack and then make a stealth check immediately after at a -20. Otherwise, the first attack reveals your location and all subsequent attacks are no longer against flat footed AC [unless it's the first round of combat and they haven't gone yet].


    Omelite wrote:

    First I'd just like to say that level 10 makes full BAB seem not quite as much better than 3/4 BAB than it really is. At levels 6,7,11,12,13,14,16,17,18,19, and 20 the full BAB classes have more attacks than a 3/4 BAB class. Level 10 is one of the few levels where this advantage is not present. However, I'll try my hand at level 10 DPR.

    Note that I will be including a 10/day usable item in my DPR (boots of speed). I'll include numbers with and without actually using the item. In my experience, a full adventuring day can be had without depleting all 10 uses, since I only bother on full attacks. Also, no pre-battle preparation.

    Material Used: Core, APG, AA

    Half-Orc Barb 1/Two-Handed Fighter 9
    ** spoiler omitted **

    Attack Roll Calculation
    ** spoiler omitted **

    Damage Roll Calculation
    ** spoiler omitted **

    Attacks with Damages
    ** spoiler omitted **...

    I think this build is technically illegal with reaging vitality at level 1 becuause you only get one 15 and raging vitality requires 15 con but that does not affect damage.


    doctor_wu wrote:
    I think this build is technically illegal with reaging vitality at level 1 becuause you only get one 15 and raging vitality requires 15 con but that does not affect damage.

    Worked it in legally without compromising my level 9 feats thanks to the fighter's ability to switch out an earlier bonus feat at Fighter 8. Also added blind-fight for increased DPR vs. concealed foes.

    Liberty's Edge

    Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
    Omelite wrote:
    doctor_wu wrote:
    I think this build is technically illegal with reaging vitality at level 1 becuause you only get one 15 and raging vitality requires 15 con but that does not affect damage.
    I completely forgot about that. I think I'll just remove it and replace it with another copy of Extra Rage.

    There a few other problems beyond the Raging Vitality, though. The comparisons in this thread are supposed to be for actual, functioning characters, not characters whose entire build is specc'd for DPR at the expense of anything resembling survivablity. Check the original post:

    The original thread wrote:
  • Regarding survivability, AC 22 and fort/will saves at +8 are the minimum for melee characters, barring some explanation of why the character doesn't need these things to survive. (For example, barbarians get cut some slack on AC because of their raging HP totals.)

  • Your barbarian, from what I can tell, has at best AC 10 and a 20% miss chance. This pretty much completely fails the survivable test. Even your fairly respectable 100 hp (120 when raging) is still going to disappear extremely quickly against a CR appropriate foe - the expected DPR of a fire giant (CR 10) against your character is 91.936, even with the miss chance, for instance.


    Shisumo wrote:
    Omelite wrote:
    doctor_wu wrote:
    I think this build is technically illegal with reaging vitality at level 1 becuause you only get one 15 and raging vitality requires 15 con but that does not affect damage.
    I completely forgot about that. I think I'll just remove it and replace it with another copy of Extra Rage.

    There a few other problems beyond the Raging Vitality, though. The comparisons in this thread are supposed to be for actual, functioning characters, not characters whose entire build is specc'd for DPR at the expense of anything resembling survivablity. Check the original post:

    The original thread wrote:
  • Regarding survivability, AC 22 and fort/will saves at +8 are the minimum for melee characters, barring some explanation of why the character doesn't need these things to survive. (For example, barbarians get cut some slack on AC because of their raging HP totals.)

  • Your barbarian, from what I can tell, has at best AC 10 and a 20% miss chance. This pretty much completely fails the survivable test. Even your fairly respectable 100 hp (120 when raging) is still going to disappear extremely quickly against a CR appropriate foe - the expected DPR of a fire giant (CR 10) against your character is 91.936, even with the miss chance, for instance.

    I went with the 20% miss chance because honestly, it's nearly impossible to get barbarian AC up to respectable levels, especially at higher levels. CR 10 monsters are going to attack at about a +18 with primary attacks. Having 22 AC is actually WORSE than a 20% miss chance in this case, and that's not even figuring for rage. Concealment is simply better for a barb, especially one who wants to occasionally get enlarged by his party members. -4 AC from enlarged and rage means that having respectable AC is nearly impossible. Miss chance is better for him.

    Will saves? In my last paragraph, I left room for a +2 cloak of resist. While raging, with 12 WIS, that's a +8 will save, so it's fine.

    There are some changes I should make for it to be a realistic character, though. A reach weapon and improved sunder would essentially mean foes with iteratives (the foes against which my low AC hurts the most - like the fire giant) would get their weapons broken on the opening round and have to rely on either nothing or if they have them, natural attacks.

    Liberty's Edge

    Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
    Omelite wrote:
    Having 22 AC is actually WORSE than a 20% miss chance in this case, and that's not even figuring for rage.

    The same fire giant's DPR against AC 22 is only 74.0 - so, no, concealment is worse. By a not-small amount, in fact.

    EDIT: In fact, concealment is only as good as AC once AC drops to 18 - so if you had a base AC of 22, then you'd be better off anytime you weren't both raging *and* enlarged, and you would *never* actually be better off with concealment.


    Shisumo wrote:
    Omelite wrote:
    Having 22 AC is actually WORSE than a 20% miss chance in this case, and that's not even figuring for rage.
    The same fire giant's DPR against AC 22 is only 74.0 - so, no, concealment is worse. By a not-small amount, in fact.

    Only because he happens to have iteratives rather than primary naturals. See the last part I added to my previous post.

    I can't edit my original submission anymore, so I'm going to resubmit it with a build that more closely follows what I'm using in PFS.


    Omelite wrote:
    pad300 wrote:
    Hannah's preferred attack mode is to sneak up on something using all that stealth she's got...and Wierd words them for 7 touch attacks vs flat footed touch ac at +13 to hit.
    Unfortunately, the only kind of stealth which typically would work for this purpose is greater invisibility. Normal invisibility or a stealth check will make your position known after the first attack. To snipe with stealth, you can only make one attack and then make a stealth check immediately after at a -20. Otherwise, the first attack reveals your location and all subsequent attacks are no longer against flat footed AC [unless it's the first round of combat and they haven't gone yet].

    1) yeah, this is typically the first round of combat. It`s also the last often...

    2) I`m not sure you are correct, Weird Words is like Telekinesis or Scorching Ray, a volley effect. Unless they have changed how volleys of attacks work, they all go off and the target doesn`t have a chance to become un-flatfooted...


    2 people marked this as a favorite.

    Resubmitting my barbarian to be a more realistic character. I play a character very similar to this in PFS. In fact, for this submission, I will be using the a 20-point point buy, as that's what there is in PFS. Such a build is less useful in an elite array.

    Material Used: Core, APG, AA, Gods and Magic, Cheliax

    Human Barb 2/Two-Handed Fighter 8

    Spoiler:
    STR 18+2[racial]+2[level]+4[rage]+4[belt]=30
    DEX 10
    CON 14+4[rage]
    INT 10
    WIS 12
    CHA 7

    Equipment: [lvl 10 WBL = 62000]
    Belt of Giant STR +4 [16000]
    Gloves of Dueling [15000]
    Robe of the Master of Masters [2300]
    Heirloom +1 furious Lucerne Hammer [8015]
    Cloak of Resist +3 [9000]
    Mistmail [2250]
    Cracked Pale Green Ioun Stone (Attack) [4000]
    Cracked Pale Green Ioun Stone (Saves) [4000]
    +1 intimidate Ioun Stone [200]

    Leftovers: 235

    Traits
    Heirloom Weapon [Elven Curve Blade]
    Berserker of the Society (+3 rounds of rage)

    Rage Powers
    At level 2: Smasher

    Feats
    1. Power Attack [Level 1]
    1. Weapon Focus [Human 1]
    2. Improved Sunder [Fighter 1]
    3. Extra Rage [Level 3]
    4. Weapon Specialization [Fighter 2, switched in at fighter 4 - was furious focus]
    5. Intimidating Prowess
    6. Greater Sunder [Fighter 4]
    7. Cornugon Smash
    8. Dazzling Display
    9. Shatter Defenses
    10. Greater Weapon Focus [Fighter 8]

    Skills
    Intimidate while raging +24

    Attack Roll Calculation

    Spoiler:
    BAB 10
    STR 10
    Trait 1 [Heirloom weapon]
    Enhance 3 [+1 furious]
    Training 3 [Fighter, Gloves of Dueling]
    Focus 2 [Weapon Focus + Greater]
    Competence 1 [Ioun Stone]
    Power -3

    =+27/+22

    Or when hasted:

    =+28/+28/+23

    Average Damage Calculation

    Spoiler:

    Weapon 6.5
    STR 15 first, 20 iteratives, or 20 single attack/charge
    Enhance 3
    Training 3
    Specialization 2
    Power 9
    = 38.5 (first), 43.5 (iteratives)

    Attacks with Damages

    Spoiler:

    20/x2 crits. Sucks for DPR, but also means less heavy overkills as the damage is more consistent.

    Single:
    +27 (43.5)

    Full:
    +27 (38.5) / +22 (43.5)

    Hasted:
    +28 (38.5) / +28 (38.5) / +23 (43.5)

    Sunder CMB's with damage

    Spoiler:
    Smasher rage power lets him go through hardness 1/rage. Also, damage over the enemy's weapon's HP goes directly to the enemy. A +2 weapon tends to have less than 40hp, so it's getting destroyed in one swing. Usually just one attack in a full attack should be switched out for a sunder, unless it does not destroy the weapon. Usually I only find reason to do this on an approaching single attack.

    Single:
    +33 (45.5)

    Full:
    +33 (40.5) / +28 (45.5)

    Hasted Full:
    +34 (40.5) / +34 (45.5) / +29 (45.5)

    DPR per swing vs. AC24
    38.40375 / 43.39125 = 81.795

    Or when buffed with haste (Robe gives 1 round/day for when allies do not provide it):

    38.40375 / 43.39125 / 43.39125 = 125.1863

    Also, when only a single attack is available, that's 43.39125 DPR.

    24AC is not the strong point of a build like this though. Vs. 29 AC, there's not too much falloff, especially with haste:

    DPR per swing vs. AC30
    With haste:
    38.40375 / 43.39125 / 31.9725 = 113.7675 vs. 30AC

    And that's not counting Cornugon Smash/Shatter Defenses, which in most cases will make the AC lower on that third swing.

    Also note that one level after this, the DPR increases considerably as a third iterative is gained.

    As far as defenses, this character has a decent amount of HP, a nice fort save, and a decent will save, and 20% miss chance. As I brought up in an earlier post, it's too costly to get barbarian AC up high enough to be worthwhile, which is why I'm going with miss chance instead on this build. In a campaign where one often encounters large groups of lower-CR enemies, they will be more of a nuisance to this character than most others, as they'll still hit ~80% of the time where they will be ineffectual against most others. Against CR equivalent or near-equivalent enemies though, esepcially with natural attacks, the 20% miss chance isn't too much worse than other non-AC tanks will do. This character is not for tanking and he prefers other melee characters engage closer (hence the reach weapon). Not caring about AC also lets him be a more appealing target for enlarge person, which puts reach at 15-20ft instead of 10ft, letting him stay further away from enemies.


    pad300 wrote:

    1) yeah, this is typically the first round of combat. It`s also the last often...

    2) I`m not sure you are correct, Weird Words is like Telekinesis or Scorching Ray, a volley effect. Unless they have changed how volleys of attacks work, they all go off and the target doesn`t have a chance to become un-flatfooted...

    1. Assuming you can beat the enemy on initiative. In any case, that would make the stealth meaningless.

    2. You may be correct there. I'm not so sure though, since the ability does not mention all the attacks happening simultaneously, like Scorching Ray does. In fact, the wording makes it seem as if they can't be simultaneous and are in fact one after another.


    5 people marked this as a favorite.

    The Pouncing Synthesist
    On this one, I'll use the Elite array, not that it matters at all. I won't be using any elemental damage as some things resist it and some things [golems] even get healed/hasted by a particular brand of energy.

    Material Used: Core, APG, UM

    Half-Elf Synthesist 10 (while fused)

    Spoiler:
    STR 14+4[Level 10 Eidolon]+2[Eidolon increases]+8[large]+4[Belt] = 32
    DEX 14+4[Level 10 Eidolon]-2[Large] = 16
    CON 13
    INT 12
    WIS 14
    CHA 15+2[Level]+2[Headband] = 19

    13 is in STR

    Equipment: [lvl 10 WBL = 62000]
    Belt of Giant STR +4 [16000]
    Amulet of Mighty Fists+1 [5000]
    Boots of Speed [12000]
    Cloak of Resist +2 [4000]
    Cracked Pale Green Ioun Stone (Saves) [4000]
    Cracked Pale Green Ioun Stone (Attack) [4000]
    Dusty Rose Ioun Stone [5000]
    Ring of Prot +2 [8000]
    Headband of CHA +2 [4000]

    Leftovers: 0

    Traits
    +2 init
    +1 will save

    Evolution Points:16 (2 from half-elf)
    4 Large
    1 Claws
    1 Bitex1.5
    2 Head
    2 Bite, bite x1.5
    2 Head
    2 Bite, bite x1.5
    1 Pounce
    1 Improved Natural AC

    Feats
    1. Skill Focus [K Nature] [Half-Elf]
    1. Iron Will
    3. Power Attack
    5. Eldritch Heritage [Sylvan] - Animal Companion
    7. Boon Companion
    9. Weapon Focus [Bite]

    Animal Companion Stats [Cat, big]
    STR 26
    DEX 22
    CON 15
    INT 2
    WIS 12
    CHA 6

    Animal Companion Feats
    1. Dodge
    3. Weapon Focus Claw
    5. Weapon Focus Bite
    7. Weapon Focus Rake

    Attack Roll Calculation

    Spoiler:
    BAB 8
    STR 11
    Enhance 1 [amulet]
    Charge 2
    Focus 1 bite, 0 claw
    Competence 1 [Ioun Stone]
    Power -3

    =+21/+21/+21/+20/+20

    Or when hasted:

    =+22/+22/+22/+22/+21/+21

    When not charging, these are 2 lower.

    Animal Attack Roll Calculation

    Spoiler:
    BAB 6
    STR 8
    Charge 2
    Focus 1

    =+17/+17/+17/+17/+17

    Or if hasted (by the spell):

    =+18/+18/+18/+18/+18/+18

    When not charging, these are 2 lower, and the last two attacks are not there.

    Average Damage Calculation

    Spoiler:

    Weapon 4.5 bite, 3.5 claws
    STR 16 bite, 11 claws
    Enhance 1
    Power 9 bite, 6 claws
    = 30.5 (bite), 21.5 (claw)

    Animal Damage Calculations

    Spoiler:
    Weapon 4.5 bite, 3.5 claws, 3.5 rakes
    STR 8
    = 12.5 bite, 11.5 claws, 11.5 rakes

    DPR per swing vs. AC24
    Synthesist:
    28.8225 x 3 / 19.18875 x 2 = 124.845

    Or when buffed with haste (Has the spell, and also has boots for 10r/day):

    30.42375 x 4 / 20.3175 x 2 = 162.33

    ------

    Animal Companion:
    9.1875 / 8.4525 x 4 = 42.9975

    or when animal companion is hasted via the spell:

    9.84375 x 2 / 9.05625 x 4 = 55.9125

    Total, no haste: ~166
    Total, synthesist hasted via boots: ~205
    Total, both hasted via spell: ~218

    The numbers are significantly lower in difficult terrain, but the Synthesist can fly for 10 minutes with a level 2 spell (Lesser Evolution Surge), which lets him get around difficult terrain.

    Defenses are pretty good. AC is about 26, 24 when charging - which kind of sucks, but lots of HP due to 18 effective HD, and a great will save. Other saves are mediocre. And while most of these builds need at least one round to get into full-attack position, this one can full attack when he starts 160ft away from an enemy, as long as there's a charging line (with flight, there often is). The animal companion isn't very survivable, since I didn't buy it barding or give it proficiency.

    RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32

    Omelite wrote:
    As far as defenses, this character has a decent amount of HP, a nice fort save, and a decent will save, and 20% miss chance. As I brought up in an earlier post, it's too costly to get barbarian AC up high enough to be worthwhile, which is why I'm going with miss chance instead on this build. In a campaign where one often encounters large groups of lower-CR enemies, they will be more of a nuisance to this character than most others, as they'll still hit ~80% of the time where they will be ineffectual against most others. Against CR equivalent or near-equivalent enemies though, esepcially with natural attacks, the 20% miss chance isn't too much worse than other non-AC tanks will do. This character is not for tanking and he prefers other melee characters engage closer (hence the reach weapon). Not caring about AC also lets him be a more appealing target for enlarge person, which puts reach at 15-20ft instead of 10ft, letting him stay further away from enemies.

    Yeah, no. You have two glaring issues.

    First off, when he activates his concealment fog thinger, he's AC 10, because he turned his armor into fog. Why do you think it's so cheap? Second off, Mistmail only works once a day, so the rest of the time he has 15 AC. The rest is covered in the thread already.

    Second off, I don't understand why this character needed to have better stats to illustrate anything. You did this to make a character that would be exactly the same as a similar character with elite array, just with +3 strength. It just skews the numbers for no good reason.

    This is an offensively lopsided character magic-item-wise, and his stats are higher for no clear reason. This isn't baseline.

    Quote:
    I don't see how Merciful is only affective against creatures with fear immunity. What does fear immunity have to do with Merciful at all? The only creatures that are listed as immune to non-lethal damage are Undead and Constructs. Everything else is susceptible to non-lethal damage (even creatures with fast healing and regeneration). Either way, I'll switch it out for a +1 instead if that is your wish. Vega will just choose to do nonlethal instead of automatically always doing nonlethal.

    The +1 is more useful when he's doing his Enforcer/Shatter/Medusa's combo or against most fear-immune foes, so it'd be the more-optimal choice in general. Sorry I wasn't clear.

    Also, posting in a spoiler makes it difficult to reply, please don't do that.


    A Man In Black wrote:
    Omelite wrote:
    As far as defenses, this character has a decent amount of HP, a nice fort save, and a decent will save, and 20% miss chance. As I brought up in an earlier post, it's too costly to get barbarian AC up high enough to be worthwhile, which is why I'm going with miss chance instead on this build. In a campaign where one often encounters large groups of lower-CR enemies, they will be more of a nuisance to this character than most others, as they'll still hit ~80% of the time where they will be ineffectual against most others. Against CR equivalent or near-equivalent enemies though, esepcially with natural attacks, the 20% miss chance isn't too much worse than other non-AC tanks will do. This character is not for tanking and he prefers other melee characters engage closer (hence the reach weapon). Not caring about AC also lets him be a more appealing target for enlarge person, which puts reach at 15-20ft instead of 10ft, letting him stay further away from enemies.

    Yeah, no. You have two glaring issues.

    First off, when he activates his concealment fog thinger, he's AC 10, because he turned his armor into fog. Why do you think it's so cheap? Second off, Mistmail only works once a day, so the rest of the time he has 15 AC. The rest is covered in the thread already.

    It works once per day for an unlimited amount of time. Essentially, it only goes away if something disperses the fog.

    Also, as I already explained elsewhere, against most difficult enemies 20% concealment is better than the 22AC you required. The only exceptions are enemies with iterative attacks, and those can easily be sundered.

    Quote:
    Second off, I don't understand why this character needed to have better stats to illustrate anything. You did this to make a character that would be exactly the same as a similar character with elite array, just with +3 strength. It just skews the numbers for no good reason.

    While the elite array is alright for some builds (monks, or essentially anyone who's got MAD), it's not great for a barbarian and it's frankly unrepresentative of normal play unless your GM requires the elite array.

    Quote:
    This is an offensively lopsided character magic-item-wise, and his stats are higher for no clear reason. This isn't baseline.

    Of course they're lopsided. That's the point of using concealment rather than spending a lot of gold on AC that's probably not going to be very effective anyway (as a raging barb, especially if enlarged).

    In fact, I'll tell you a little story. Last Thursday, I was playing my character who is very approximate to this build in PFS (he's was level 8, but had more wealth as he's played up a subtier most of the time). At this point, I was wearing +2 full plate. My AC was about 26, or 24 when raging. Not terrible, right? Wrong. We fought a greater earth elemental, CR 9, and it was attacking at +22. True, that's a high attack roll for CR 9, but he has a 95% chance of hitting me while raging. At CR 10, 22 is the average primary natural attack roll according to the monster creation table. If I had mistmail instead of my +2 full plate, it instead would have had only a 76% chance of hitting, and I'd also have a speed of 40ft instead of 20ft, and an ACP of -2 intead of -5. Mistmail would have been roughly equivalent to having 28 AC while raging, which is simply economically unrealistic for a level 10 barb. After this happened, I decided I'd sell my full plate and amulet of nat AC, buy some mistmail, be twice as fast, and hope that mist-dispersing effects will be rare.

    At level 10, 20% concealment is overall much better than 22 AC (the benchmark given here), especially when you can break manufactured weapons with ease. If you want to complain about it, complain that the mist can be dispersed, not that it's not as effective as 22 AC.

    RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32

    2 people marked this as a favorite.
    Omelite wrote:
    Also, as I already explained elsewhere, against most difficult enemies 20% concealment is better than the 22AC you required. The only exceptions are enemies with iterative attacks, and those can easily be sundered.

    No, it's not. AC 22 is a bare minimum because I looked at the CR 8-11 brutes, and noticed that that's about the AC you needed to keep from getting 2-plused by their Power Attacks. Also, not all enemies are difficult, and not all iterative attacks are melee.

    Also, an example of an effect that disperses mistmail is an 11 mph wind, per Obscuring Mist. That's not a windy day; that's a breeze. You're going to have trouble keeping that buff up any time you're outside.

    If you're going to use non-AC defenses in lieu of AC, you're going to need better than 20% miss chance (assuming there's no wind at all).

    Quote:
    While the elite array is alright for some builds (monks, or essentially anyone who's got MAD), it's not great for a barbarian and it's frankly unrepresentative of normal play unless your GM requires the elite array.

    Elite array is equivalent to 15 point buy, first off.

    Also, elite array is forced here as another rule to help prevent defensively lopsided characters, since everyone needs minimum fort/wis/AC totals. Juggling stats is another way to dump defenses to boost offenses, so stats are purposefully set in a way that restricts heavy reshuffling. I picked the most conservative balanced array, because rolling/point buy standards vary widely from table to table, and I wanted numbers low.

    MAD classes suffer from having to skimp on offensive stats in order to fill out their needs for other things (spellcasting, TWF feats, survivability); other classes suffer from the lack of the ability to focus on their One True Stat. That's just a consequence of conservative stats.

    Your build is useful to illustrate why the rules for the baseline are set the way they are.


    Hey AMIB,
    1) Any comments on my harsh language build? Do you know of a ruling on Weird Words attacking a single target? Am I correct with my understanding of the rules regarding a volley of attacks?

    2) You might be able to pull this out of your head - can you think of an equivalent to the Practiced Spellcaster/Boon Companion feats but for bardic music.

    RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32

    Omelite wrote:

    The Pouncing Synthesist

    Half-Elf Synthesist 10 (while fused)

    This character does 110.72 standing still, without the help of his animal companion. Also, he has better defenses than most martial melee characters.

    Synthesists are crazy.

    Also, I do like the animal companion shenanigans for non-feat-strapped builds. Nice spot.

    Quote:
    In fact, I'll tell you a little story. Last Thursday, I was playing my character who is very approximate to this build in PFS (he's was level 8, but had more wealth as he's played up a subtier most of the time). At this point, I was wearing +2 full plate. My AC was about 26, or 24 when raging. Not terrible, right? Wrong. We fought a greater earth elemental, CR 9, and it was attacking at +22. True, that's a high attack roll for CR 9, but he has a 95% chance of hitting me while raging.

    Greater Earth Elementals normally attack at +17. They have a base to-hit of +21, -4 for Power Attack.


    A Man In Black wrote:
    Omelite wrote:
    Also, as I already explained elsewhere, against most difficult enemies 20% concealment is better than the 22AC you required. The only exceptions are enemies with iterative attacks, and those can easily be sundered.
    No, it's not. AC 22 is a bare minimum because I looked at the CR 8-11 brutes, and noticed that that's about the AC you needed to keep from getting 2-plused by their Power Attacks. Also, not all enemies are difficult, and not all iterative attacks are melee.

    Fair points in that enemies might power attack me knowing that concealment won't affect their power attack and assuming that I must have low AC, and also in that some iterative attacks aren't melee and thus I might not be able to break their weapon before they full attack me. Note that I'm rarely in the front of my group, as someone always has better AC and reflex than the barbarian. I'm not usually an enemy's first pick of target unless the GM is metagaming knowing that I have lower AC than others. In-world, most ranged enemies would not say "let me aim for that guy I can't see all that well because he's surrounded in mist." Not unless they had seeking bows or something.

    Quote:
    Also, an example of an effect that disperses mistmail is an 11 mph wind, per Obscuring Mist. That's not a windy day; that's a breeze. You're going to have trouble keeping that buff up any time you're outside.

    Fair enough. I suppose a GM who decided it was windy enough outside to disperse it would be justified, but I think such GMs are probably rare. My biggest worry is something like a fireball going off.

    Quote:
    If you're going to use non-AC defenses in lieu of AC, you're going to need better than 20% miss chance (assuming there's no wind at all).

    20% miss chance is better than 22 AC. 22 AC is absolutely terrible at level 10. Both are suboptimal as defenses. If you're going to use AC as your defense, you sure as hell better have more than 22 by level 10.

    In any case, another point you could have made is that some enemies have blind-fight. My best defense is going to be the fact that I try not letting enemies full attack me so there are usually easier targets. This is especially easy when I'm enlarged.

    Quote:
    Quote:
    While the elite array is alright for some builds (monks, or essentially anyone who's got MAD), it's not great for a barbarian and it's frankly unrepresentative of normal play unless your GM requires the elite array.
    Elite array is equivalent to 15 point buy, first off.

    It's equivalent to it in a point sense, but it's not what any barbarian would buy with 15 points. With 15 points, I'd still start with 20 STR as a barb. I'd just dump INT down to 7 and lower wis to 11, problem solved. Take iron will to balance out the lower wis and give up some of the intimidate-based feats.

    Quote:
    Also, elite array is forced here as another rule to help prevent defensively lopsided characters, since everyone needs minimum fort/wis/AC totals. Juggling stats is another way to dump defenses to boost offenses, so stats are purposefully set in a way that restricts heavy reshuffling. I picked the most conservative balanced array, because rolling/point buy standards vary widely from table to table, and I wanted numbers low.

    Yes, they vary widely from table to table, but elite array is not a common convention in my experience. Point buy is much more common, and it's also what organized play uses.

    Quote:
    Your build is useful to illustrate why the...

    I think it's just the opposite. If point buy games are more common than elite array games, then it makes little sense to use the elite array as a point of comparison. You could likewise have asked us to do the challenge with all 10's on stats, but how useful is that if most games aren't played with stats of all 10's?

    RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32

    pad300 wrote:

    Hey AMIB,

    1) Any comments on my harsh language build? Do you know of a ruling on Weird Words attacking a single target? Am I correct with my understanding of the rules regarding a volley of attacks?

    2) You might be able to pull this out of your head - can you think of an equivalent to the Practiced Spellcaster/Boon Companion feats but for bardic music.

    The harsh language build is great. I am investimigating its legality; I was going to do its save-adjusted DPR afterward. I can't think of any Practiced Spellcaster equivalents for bardic music, but honestly, I only own core and APG, and have a borrowed copy of UM. (I technically own the core setting book, too, but I don't think I even have a saved copy of it on my hard drive.) There is some crazy crap in the APs and setting books.

    Omelite wrote:
    Fair points in that enemies might power attack me knowing that concealment won't affect their power attack and assuming that I must have low AC, and also in that most iterative attacks aren't melee.

    No metagaming involved. Greater earth elementals just power attack all the time, because it's almost always more damage. It's the same reason characters in this thread (should) just power attack all the time.

    Quote:
    20% miss chance is better than 22 AC.

    In a narrow set of circumstances. "My character is almost as good as the bare minimum" when you are obviously making deep defensive sacrifices is not acceptable. "Magic items will be prioritized for doing damage without adversely affecting survivability" is one of the core rules, and it's there to prevent glass cannon gimmick builds. You ignored it and made a glass cannon gimmick build.

    Elite array simulates how MAD classes suffer from not being able to have multiple high stats easily and also simulates how single-stat classes underperform a bit under very generous point buys or lucky die rolling. Also, 2h fighter (the core of your barbarian build) is one of the best performers under limited stats, because it has lots of natural accuracy and relatively few attacks; TWFers, natural attackers, monks, and whatnot benefit more from 18 base str than a 2h fighter does.

    Nothing about your character hinges on 18 str; it just gets more to-hit and damage from it. You could have easily made your character with elite array, and then we could have compared its DPR to other characters on an even footing. You just didn't.

    "I am breaking X rule to illustrate some point" is cool. "I am breaking X rule because I don't like it" just gives us random stuff all over the map.


    A Man In Black wrote:
    Omelite wrote:

    The Pouncing Synthesist

    Half-Elf Synthesist 10 (while fused)

    This character does 110.72 standing still, without the help of his animal companion. Also, he has better defenses than most martial melee characters.

    Synthesists are crazy.

    The fact that he can pounce in the surprise round, and can get in a full attack starting 160 feet away (if he uses haste that round) just makes it more ridiculous. It'd be a good build even if he couldn't pounce, but pounce breaks everything. Especially when he has an easy means of flying.

    Quote:
    Greater Earth Elementals[/url] normally attack at +17. They have a base to-hit of +21, -4 for Power Attack.

    Well, 18 due to earth mastery. For some reason or other the GM must not have been power attacking. It is only 29 vs. 21 damage for a -4 attack roll, so against a lot of ACs that's not really worth doing, but it would have made sense against my low 24AC [45.675 DPR power vs. 41.895 DPR non-power attacking]. Against 29AC or higher he should not power attack.

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