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A summoner can make a decent archer. Human is probably best because you will need the extra feat.

1 Martial Weapon Proficiency (Longbow), Point-Blank Shot
3 Precise Shot
5 Rapid Shot
7 Arcane Strike
9 Manyshot

No items makes the game very difficult. I am not sure the best way to allocate stat points because usually I would assume you could get stat boosting items so you could cast spells. For a 15 point buy I would start with

Str 14
Dex 17 (Put +2 racial here)
Con 12
Int 10
Wis 7
Cha 14

and increase dexterity at level 4. Then you need to put points into charisma at levels 8 and 12 so you can cast your highest level spells. If you think you will play all the way up to level 20, then you could put the last two points into dexterity.

I am going to be GMing a solo Reign of Winter campaign for my wife. To adjust the difficulty I am going to be running a GM-PC for her, allowing gestalt, giving max HP, six rolls of 5d6 dropping lowest two dice (she does not like pointbuy or I would give 25), and applying a weakened template to all the encounters which is basically the opposite of the advanced template so they lose 4 AC, 2 HP/HD and subtract 2 from all rolls and DCs. She is going to be playing a barbarian/oracle and the GM-PC will be a druid/ranger with an animal companion. I already rolled and got great stats for the druid/ranger who will be very optimized. Her character will probably be semi-optimized with advice from me. Instead of calculating experience which would get messed up with only two PCs and weakened encounters I am going to award levels using the suggestions in the book. Does this sound reasonable?


Such as level 1 Eidolons get 3 attacks and level 4 they get 4 attacks. So I'm still asking if a Biped Eidolon has Claws on hands and feet and they have 3 could they get 2 from the claws and on hands and 1 from the foot. Nothing says they Eidolon can't have more than the number of natural attacks they just can't use them all such as they could have a bite, 4 claws and a tail. They might not be able to use all those attacks, but they...

As was pointed out earlier the Eidolon cannot take the evolution at all if it would result in their number of attacks going over their max so before level 4 a biped cannot take claws on their feet.

A level 4 biped Eidolon can take claws, energy attacks, improved damage and strength ability increase for a strength of 18. An eidolon could take power attack and weapon focus. So they hit for +8 and do D6+D6+6 damage which against an AC of 17, appropriate for a CR 4, they are clocking in a DPR of 29.65. A level 4 raging barbarian, strength 24, also with weapon focus and power attack with a +1 elven curved blade has a to hit of +10, does D10+17 and only has a DPR of 19.4.

I am not sure how you get a +13 to attack and a +13 to damage for the barbarian. A strength bonus of +7 only gives a +10 to damage and power attack would add +6.

Actually if the archeologist used luck for one round, it gets six rounds of luck a day, the damage would be 41 which is right on the target value for the table. I think it is pretty interesting that an unoptimized bard that I made for another thread just happens to fit the criteria that is being made.

Using the elite array, which is a 15 point buy and what was used in the DPR Olympics, I calculated what an optimized level 10 archer arcane duelist bard would contribute against a CR 10 encounter if it inspired courage the first round as a move action, took a single attack and then the next round took a full attack.

The bard alone does 56 damage over two rounds. The inspire courage would contribute 15 total points of damage to an optimized level 10 fighter making a single attack and then a full attack with an elven curved blade. For a level 10 challenge this accounts for over 50% of the target’s health without considering the effect of the inspire courage on additional allies. I think that is pretty good for a support class.

The bard has point-blank shot, precise shot, rapid shot, many shot, weapon focus, arcane strike and lingering performance with a +3 short bow, belt of +2 dex and bracers of the falcon, a dexterity score of 20 and a strength score of 14.

I recently posted an archeologist bard that focused on taking skill focus and had no bonus to strength. That bard only had point-blank shot, rapid shot and many shot as offensive feats but could take the same gear. That bard, with the same dex, if it used luck on itself both rounds would do 50 damage. Without luck it would do 37 over two rounds which is still more than 25% of a CR 10 encounter. I guess that shows that an unoptimized bard can still pull its weight for an encounter by that standard.

One thing to keep in mind is that the expected damage column for the monster creation chart does not take into account the chance to hit, it assumes that all attacks hit. This is a very poor assumption for a PC. If we compare a level 10 rogue and fighter where the rogue has taken the two-weapon fighting feats and is sneak attacking the average damage if all of the rogue's attacks hit would be around 96 for a strength 20 rogue. A strength 22 fighter power attacking with an elven curved blade only has an average damage of 63 if both of the fighter's attacks hit. We know that if we factor in the chance to hit the fighter comes out ahead so the chart would have to take the chance to hit into account.

Edit - I see you do plan to take everything into account when examining a two round situation.

Marthkus wrote:

If you want to make the DM laugh tell him your plans.

Rapid reload is a nice damage and range boost that turns into something that allows me to just shoot into peoples faces if they want to do melee with me. Plus heavy crossbows are cool.

Also, can you flank with a crossbow if you are right next to them?

I am only planning to up to 12.

No, a flanking attack has to be a melee attack. However, if you threaten an enemy with a melee attack your ally can gain the flanking bonus even if you cannot with your ranged attack. Even if you are not proficient with it and never intend to attack with it you can still wear a barbazu beard or a dwarven boulder helmet and threaten with it. You might be able to threaten with a spiked gauntlet while using a crossbow as a recent FAQ indicated that it is a free action to take your hand off or on a two-handed weapon. Armor spikes are another option to threaten while using a crossbow.

Nicos wrote:
MrSin wrote:
Nicos wrote:
I see, the ability is clever exporer and not trapfinding. Still with less skill points per level and a lower Int (cause the need a higher Cha) a rogue will have more skill points.
My edit... They actually have a higher intellect becuase they have an easier time dumping other things.
mmm, I do not believe it. MAybe you can dump wisdom but that is not a really good idea for anyone.

A bard has a good will save and with versatile performance oratory they get to use charisma for sense motive. A bard who drops wisdom is behind on perception and not much else.

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Lord Twig wrote:

I know you were not seeking build advice, but since this got moved to the advice forum!

Str: 10 +0
Dex: 17 +3 (15 base, +2 racial)
Con: 12 +1 (12 base)
Int: 15 +2 (15 base)
Wis: 12 +1 (12 base)
Cha: 12 +1 (12 base)

So that's how I would build this character. One point into Dex and Int at levels 4 and 8 (you choose which one first).

To me this guy is average strength, extremely nimble, very smart, above average health, common sense, will power and looks and is generally likeable.

For feats, Skill Focus Acrobatics and Dodge at 1st level. Grab a light crossbow or short bow and attack from range.

2nd: Finesse Rogue for Weapon Finesse.
3rd: Skill Focus Perception to cement your place as the trapfinder (or anything finder really).
4th: Trap Spotter, so you don't miss anything.
5th: Skill Focus: Stealth
6th: Weapon Training for Weapon Focus (whatever weapon you choose).
7th: Skill Focus: Disable Device
8th: Combat Trick for Mobility
9th: Spring Attack
10th: Skill Mastery

So at level 10 your base skills are:
Acrobatics +23, Bluff +14, Diplomacy +14, Disable Device +23, Disguise +14, Knowledge (Dungeoneering) +16, Knowledge (local) +16, Perception +20, Sense Motive +14, Sleight of Hand +17, Stealth +23, Use Magic Device +14

I would put the favored class point into Hit Points, but if not you can get another skill. And of course skills can be swapped out for other ones. Probably Alertness at 11th for +4 to Perception and Sense Motive?

Anyway, this guys isn't the greatest in combat, but with his Acrobatics and eventually Spring Attack he can get to where he needs to be when it counts. Otherwise he should stay out of the way, try not to get hit and look for an opportunity to be useful.

This is not how I would build a bard but I thought I would make one in the form set out by Lord Twig and see how it turned out. Lord Twig took 12 skills. With versatile performance for oratory and acting and taking the favored class option for the skill point a human bard can match the rogue. Lord Twig did not use his favored class option so he could have an extra skill or hit point but instead of focusing on two knowledge skills a bard can put skill points into four knowledge skills every other level and actually come out ahead with lore master. We also have perform as an actual skill. Stats are pretty much the same but I reduced intellect to increase charisma. Lord Twig took skill focus four times so I also took skill focus four times for the same skills but I did take advantage of the human focused study trait to get an extra skill focus feat at 8th level. This left three feats which I used to focus on archery by taking precise shot and rapid shot instead of going for spring attack.

1 Point-blank shot, Skill Focus
3 Precise Shot
5 Rapid Shot
7 Skill Focus
8 Skill Focus (from focused study)
9 Skill Focus

Str 11
Dex 17 (+2 racial)
Con 12
Int 14
Wis 12
Cha 13

At 10th level if we had put a point into dexterity and charisma our skills are as follows:

Acrobatics +23
Disable Device +15
Knowledge (Dungeoneering) +10
Knowledge (Local) +10
Knowledge (Nature) +10
Knowledge (Planes) +10
Perception +20
Perform (Acting) +15 (Counts for bluff and disguise)
Perform (Oratory) +15 (Counts for sense motive and diplomacy)
Sleight of hand +17
Stealth +23
Use magic device +15

The bard is only behind in disable device and ahead on effective knowledge checks. If we take archeologist to gain trap finding, putting us at +20 disable device, we lose versatile performance and therefore two skills. We can always drop disguise and stealth both of which are easily replaced by magic such as invisibility. If we take archeologist we get two rogue talents so we could take trap spotter to match the rogue. We cannot take skill mastery because that is an advanced talent but we could take something such as canny observer which supplements trap spotter.

Is this bard better at everything than a rogue all the time? No, the bard will always be behind on disable device because it is not a class skill, even for the archeologist, but the bard has the advantage with knowledge skills so I think they are pretty even on skills even with the archeologist losing versatile performance. Magic is going to be much better than sneak attack, which Lord Twig’s rogue can not really use to full effect anyway. With magic I think the bard will consistently outperform the rogue. I realize some people do not want to play a bard because it does not fit their concept but I think it is pretty clear when you compare the two head on there is not much the rogue can do better than the bard.

That being said I think people should play whatever they enjoy.

I agree with Bruno. Multiple grapplers can only use the aid other action to give a +2 to the player trying to escape. The only other option is to directly attack the monster doing the grapple. It seems strange but multiple creatures cannot help beyond that most likely to keep grappling from becoming even more complex.

Multiple Creatures: Multiple creatures can attempt to grapple one target. The creature that first initiates the grapple is the only one that makes a check, with a +2 bonus for each creature that assists in the grapple (using the Aid Another action). Multiple creatures can also assist another creature in breaking free from a grapple, with each creature that assists (using the Aid Another action) granting a +2 bonus on the grappled creature's combat maneuver check.

I am going to be playing in a Skull and Shackles campaign and am meeting this week for a character creation session. We have already thrown out some ideas via e-mail and looks like we will have a barbarian, gunslinger and either a ranger or alchemist and either a rogue or wizard in addition to myself. I want to play a class that will be the missing piece as it were and this group is lacking for casting. What would be a good class if I am the only caster?

Originally I was thinking I would play a combat focused druid but adding another melee character with an animal companion seems excessive at this point or a bard but with this party I am thinking witch would be a better fit if no one else plays a caster as they have a pretty broad spell list. I guess another option would be to play a Samsaran with mystic past life. If the player picks wizard instead of rogue then I feel I have more options and might play a caster focused druid or maybe an archer oracle of battle.

I have a back story for a character that is a good fit for either druid, witch or oracle so the roleplay aspect is not really an issue. If I went Samsaran I would have to remake my back story.

I completely agree with the other posters that a GM can customize encounters to really any degree, that is the nature of the game after all. A player does not have any right to complain. However, a GM does have to be careful to make sure the CR of the creature has not been changed by accident. It is very easy to make some small changes, such as putting mage armor and shield on the list of spells a dragon has learned, that can drastically change an encounters difficulty.

A nymph with sorcerer levels will have level 3 spells with a DC of 20 which is not within the range for a CR 7 encounter. I would say in that case just use wisdom as the nymph's casting stat because I do not think it can easily be judged what the CR adjustment would be for raising a creatures primary DC by 4 without changing anything else.

I believe you can take a 5 foot step while staggered. The staggered condition makes no mention of it but the 5 foot step reads, you can take a 5-foot step before, during, or after your other actions in the round. You can still move and attack while staggered if you have an ability that lets you move as a swift or immediate action so you are not limited in that way while staggered.

A slam attack is a kind of primary natural attack so it uses a standard or full round action to use. It seems to use both arms if a creature has them so you cannot wield weapons and make a slam attack. For example see the witchwyrd. wyrd

It was mentioned in another thread similar to this one that talking about what effect the weapon has in game can be a good way to do this.

A weapon possessed of minor magic +1 enchantment
A magical journeyman’s weapon +2 enchantment
A greater magical weapon that can harm fey and shapeshifters +3 enchantment
A greater magical weapon that can harm fey, shapeshifters and iron golems +4 enchantment
A greater magical weapon that can harm fey, shapeshifters, iron golems and outsiders +5 enchantment

I am planning on playing a melee focused wild shaping druid in an upcoming Skull and Shackle campaign. I realized that my character is going to be effectively mute during any extended conflict situation and maybe between them if I am expecting another encounter soon. How have other people handled this? What are some simple signs that I could use to communicate with my group? I mainly plan on taking cat and dinosaur forms which should both be able to make simple marks or gestures. I do not think the aquatic forms are going to be able to communicate very well except maybe the water elemental. I have already thought that the following words should be things I should be able to express: yes, no, stop, go, heal me, and trap. I think yes and no can double for ready and not ready. It seems too complicated to come up with a sign for all the different spells that I might use. If I let my group know what spells I prepare each day then at least they will have an idea of what I might do if a given situation comes up. What other concepts do people think I should be able to communicate? Since we will be on a ship it seems like there should be some specific things I would want to say about sailing but I cannot think of any.

A level 10 half-elf synthesist summoner would easily smash them both. I know you said level 8 but if we have 155 points to work with, that is what the barbarian used, I do not see why you cannot take level 10 and pay the points for it. I left you some points to work with for defensive items. You only need low point buy because the eidolon replaces your physical stats. Use your favored class bonus to get an extra 2 evolution points.

Level 10 59
Low point buy 10
Source books 2
Gear 40
Total 111

Gear: +1 amulet of mighty fists

Feats: Weapon Focus (claw), Arcane Strike, Power Attack, Toughness

Evolutions 16 points: Large (4 points) Arms (2 points) 2x claws one for legs one for arms (2 points) energy attacks (2 points) rend (2 points) Pounce (1 point) Bite (1) Improved claws (2 points)

1 - Cast summon eidolon
2 - Cast greater invisibility, move
3 - Cast something such as mage armor, acid pit, or haste, position self to pounce
4- Pounce, should drop them each in two rounds of combat even after they drink their +5 bark skin potions

Shfish wrote:
With summoner? No. With Wizards (who kinda face the same issue at low levels) Yes. Totally worth the thought. If you don't want to take the feats, just use the crossbow since you get that free profiency wise.

What are you referring to, using a bow? I have never heard of a wizard using a bow as their BAB is too low, except maybe for a elf wizard for the first few levels instead of a crossbow if they have exceptional stats. A crossbow is sub-par because you need to take rapid reload to get full use out of it so it also costs you a feat and it does not add your str to the damage rolls.

At level 10 with a full attack using a +3 bow, belt of +2 dex, and bracers of falcon's aim with arcane strike the summoner would do about 32 damage per round to a creature with an ac 24 while a dedicated archer fighter starting with a 20 in dex does about 80 damage.

I think this guy is too strong. With max HP and that stat array I think you should add at least 2 to his CR canceling out the usual minus 2 that kobolds get with PC classes. That puts him at CR 7 making him an epic encounter for an APL of 4 and off the chart for an APL of 3. Considering that they will have already fought about 3 CR 3 and 1 CR 1 fights assuming they meet 3 groups of 4 kobolds with one commander each and one group without a commander I think you are looking at a TPK unless the group is larger than normal or have other advantages we do not know of. Do you have your parties stats? Try a few mock rounds by yourself and test him out.

I think the saurian is better because the Allosaurus is probably the best land combat huge form. As you get into higher levels you do not want to use a large form over a huge form unless you have to. Because they only have 3/4 BAB, have to use an amulet of mighty fists, cannot use weapon focus to full capacity due to different attack types, druids eventually have trouble hitting enemies even with their strength bonuses which are partially diminished by their size increase. Kingmaker goes up to at least level 15 so you might have trouble near the end if you go melee.

A full caster starts off much weaker but will probably be more effective than a melee the last two books or so.

The question of the animal companion partially depends on the rest of the part make up. If you go caster is there another party member who could use the flanking bonus? If you go melee do you need an animal companion to provide a flanking bonus? The question to go caster or melee also depends on the rest of the party make up. If you have a wizard, bard, cleric and you then you probably want to go melee and take the animal. If you have a ranger, paladin, witch and you then you probably want to go caster and take a domain.

There is a great guide to the druid as a caster or melee written by Treantmonk you might want to take a look at. As a caster you would want to adjust your stats. The only caveat I would add is that it was written when only core was out and Treantmonk does not think craft wondrous item is that good of a feat and I think the boards agree that it is too good, especially in Kingmaker when you have a lot of time to be spend on crafting. He calls it selling your feat but if you are selling a feat to get a headband and belt early and keep your progression with an amulet of mighty fists then that is a pretty good trade.

You might consider taking longbow proficiency and switching str to 16, con to 14 and int to 13. I know people usually take a lot of extra summons feats and being a good archer eats up your early feats but it would give you something to do every round. You have great stats and would put out respectable damage. You already have a high dex and with your trait improved initiative is not absolutely needed.

1: Point blank shot, Longbow
3: Precise shot
5: Rapid shot
7: Arcane strike (maybe)
9: Multishot

You might want to consider ant haul when you get into higher levels and can have it up all day as a cloak of resistance is a pretty good item to have. How long does your group travel in game? With a level 1 pearl, which costs the same as the cords, you will have 16 hours active and 20 hours next level. Eventually you can use the pearl for something else or just sell it.

A feat is worth about 4000-5000 gold if it is not a slotless item. The dark blue rhomboid ioun stone gives alertness and costs 8000 and the opalescent white pyramid gives weapon proficiency and costs 10000. Of course, that is entirely up to the GM. However, variant channel cannot be gained as a feat; it is something you choose when you create the character so I would say that granting a class ability would be much more expensive. I had thought you meant one of the alignment or elemental channel feats before. Also, a character cannot normally switch back and forth between full normal healing and variant channeling so I would say that a feat or item that let you do both would be too good. Such an item would be very powerful in that you could take the item off and give full healing between fights and then put the item back on and have access to the variant in fights. Maybe if you talk to your GM he or she will just let you permanently switch to one of the variant channels when you reach next level as if you had selected it when you made the character.

I do not know how your games have been going but in my experience it is not necessary for the cleric to be so focused on healing, especially in combat. Our cleric would often have channel energy uses left after adventuring for the day so a phylactery was not needed.

Yes, your speed would reduce to 30 in medium armor or heavy armor.

If you take off the wisdom headband, put on the phylactory, and then put the wisdom headband back on the stat bonus counts as temporary so you would not get bonus spells the next time you prepare spells.

Skip the mulepack cords, cast ant haul on yourself and wear a +1 breastplate. That will be 8 hours of being able to carry stuff which should be more than enough and the duration rises quickly with level. You can get a pearl of power to recast it if you are worried about it being dispelled or running out. Do not forget that you can us a buckler without penalty with your crossbow so get one of those too. Headband of wisdom is a must next level, nothing is better than boosting your casting stat. I agree that if your GM allows crafting take craft wondrous item as your level 5 feat and go crazy with items. If not you might think about taking heavy armor proficiency for full plate which you will be able to handle with ant haul, in that case just get a regular breastplate now and save your money for the plate. Offensive channeling is interesting because you have so many channels and a high DC but the damage is not that good and it only works on a very specific set of encounters. I do not think it is worth a feat but maybe a custom magic item if you take crafting but I would put it as a lower priority than a headband and basic defensive items.

Do not be concerned that you are not doing enough. A full caster often casts a good spell the first round, maybe throws out a lesser spell the second and then does basically nothing as the party finishes up. You are still at a level where you can fire your crossbow to do something in the off rounds but in a few more levels you will not have a lot of options. Are you going to take leadership at level 7? If not you should ask to be allowed take the martyr subdomain which will at least give you something. If you are taking leadership you will have plenty to do on your turn with two characters.

Summoning is great and if you are not taking leadership you might consider spell focus (conjuration) so you can take augment summoning which will be a huge boost to your summons. The spell focus is a wasted feat for you and you could talk to your GM and see if you could take something else such as sacred summons as the prerequisite.

It’s funny, when I initially looked up holy vindicator I thought he cannot use a shield so the ability is wasted but even when I noted that you can use a shield I forgot about the ability. That is a pretty big AC boost and I cannot argue with how you want to play your character. It might be interesting to make a note of how many times you are actually attacked during the campaign. It all depends on your GM’s style if it is worth it to expend significant resources on defense. I think your character will do what you want it to do. Have fun.

Looks pretty good but I have to question the level of holy vindicator. You lose a level of casting and perform to gain heavy armor and shield proficiency. Is this character going to be leveled up or is for a one shot? If you are going to be leveling the character I would definitely say go straight cleric as being a level behind on spell casting will really hurt. If it is a one shot it is not as important.

It looks like you plan on making attack rolls as you have a moderately boosted strength and a magic weapon. Your damage is going to be very low so there is not a lot of benefit to getting in the middle of combat even if you continue to take levels of holy vindicator. Maybe if you offer flanking and aid other bonuses it could be worth it but you can wear a mithral heavy shield without penalty and instead of getting alignment channel you could take medium armor proficiency. You would then have a spiked gauntlet so you could threaten and cast spells with a heavy shield. You cannot use a heavy shield with your war hammer out and cast spells with somatic components. You need a light shield or buckler for that. If you give up on making attack rolls you can also drop strength a bit, assuming you used point buy, and boost your other stats.

If you really do want to make attack rolls I would recommend taking weapon focus and dropping steel soul or divine interference and since you said anything PFSRD is legal you could take the guided weapon property which lets you use dexterity for both attack and damage rolls. I think it is an overpowered ability which should be at least a +2 enchantment but if your GM allows it, it would make you into a front line fighter. It also lets you drop strength so that you only need to worry about encumbrance which casting ant haul can take care of. apon-property---guided

I believe that the vampire is fine. The actual Daylight spell suppresses any spell with the darkness descriptor so that prevailing conditions apply instead. However, the Sun Blade does not actually cast Daylight. It is a unique ability and we do not even know if it is a spell-like or supernatural ability. The description for Sun Blade makes no mention of its effect on magical darkness so we can only assume that it has no effect on magical darkness by RAW. The spells used to create a magical item do not determine exactly what the item does and unless otherwise mentioned have no bearing on an items function.

That being said as a GM I would rule that the Sun Blade counts as a Daylight spell for purposes of interacting with magical darkness.

There is not much that a wizard can or should do once combat has stabilized. So do not feel bad that you may not have anything to do that is just the way the class is. For the early levels wizard school spell-like abilities, crossbows or cantrips can give you things to do but after a certain point, which you are reaching, they start to become useless. You can keep firing your crossbow or rays but you should not spend feats on enhancing your rays at this stage in the game. Using the aid other action is very risky, especially because you do not have the normal set of defensive magic items, and I cannot recommend it unless you have something such as mirror image active. If you use a weapon with reach you could try aiding another because even with the non-proficiency penalty you would only need to roll a 11 or higher to hit an AC of 10 which is still better than nothing. You would only want to do that against a creature that does not have reach itself.

The combination of having almost no magic items and having too many challenging encounters creates a very difficult environment. Is this what the group likes or is the GM just actually being mean because that is a problem. In that type of environment every single spell you prepare has to be devastating and you have to use them even more sparingly than normal which is going to magnify your perceived lack of doing things. Your description of a typical encounter seemed pretty good and I think you have a good grasp on wizard tactics. I would recommend casting only one level 3 or 4 spell per encounter and supplement with a level 2 or 1 as needed. Try starting encounters with a web or glitterdust and see how it goes. You may not need to cast anything more than that. Normally I prepare things such as dimensional anchor, fly, and dispel magic but for your environment I would recommend that all of your level 3 and 4 spells either be summons or effect multiple creatures. Here is a sample spell list.

4 – Black tentacles, Summon monster IV, Acid pit
3 – Stinking cloud, Summon monster III, Haste, Slow
2 – Glitterdust, Web 2x, Stone call, Create Pit
1 – Mage armor, Silent image 2x, Protection from evil 2x, Grease, Magic missile

As for your feats if you are not being given enough gold to actually scribe scrolls that is not really fair and you could ask for spell focus as a substitute like they do in PFS. Also, what do you use extend spell for? You could swap your trait for magical lineage, which lets you deduct one from the adjusted level of a specific spell when using metamagic, and trade extend spell for a different metamagic feat. Some good choices are toppling spell with magic missile or rime spell with snowball. This would give you a powerful level 1 spell that you could prepare four or five times and it would give you more things to do.

Also, I would consider giving the barbarian your belt. Now it is not a fair situation and all the players should get to have magic items but in kind of game you are playing it might be a good move. How often have you actually been attacked? If the GM does not target you the boost to the barbarian might help the party a lot. The extra health and 2 rounds of raging could be pretty important. You could always cast false life on yourself to mitigate the difference but you would have to switch your school opposition to divination or something. However, if have been attacked in the last few sessions and are not interested in using false life than I would say to keep the belt.

Does the synthesist summoner's eidolon get its ability score increases when it reaches 4, 8 and 12 HD? I would imagine yes as ability score increases are tied to HD and nothing indicates that the eidolon has somehow lost its own HD when merged. It is only called out on not getting skills or feats of its own.

The synthesist is also listed as gaining access to all the special abilities of the eidolon and ability score increases are listed under special abilities in the eidolon table. Does mean that the synthesist gets the eidolon's ability score increases in addition to their own when merged? If this were true does the eidolon also get the ability score increase for itself? Or is this just an artifact of the table format where the ability score increase for the eidolon is not really an applicable special ability and instead is just a reminder that all characters get increases in ability scores every 4 HD?

I was thinking that it is the third option and just the way the table was written but the ability score increase is listed as an extraordinary ability adding credence that it is an ability that the summoner could gain access to. I cannot imagine this was the intent of the developer to give the synthesis summoner extra ability score increases and I hope any GM in a home game would disallow such a view but maybe a FAQ is needed for formal play.

A Man In Black wrote:

Here's a beta gunslinger. You could probably squeeze out a bit more DPR by fidding with his weapon, but I was sticking to the non-strict rule of favoring straight bonuses. That said, distance, corrosive, or keen is probably more useful than the straight +2 bonus.

Bullet Bill, human gunslinger 10
Material used: APG feats, Ultimate Combat beta (v2) gunslinger
** spoiler omitted **
Bill loads his pistol with paper cartridges, so he reloads as a free action. He also generally benefits from Point Blank Shot, since his first range increment is only 20y to begin with. With full BAB against touch AC, he also uses Deadly Aim at short range. Most of the time, Bill just fires the main barrel of his pistol and...

I have taken MiB's build, swapped weapon spec and point blank master for two weapon fighting and improved twf and then traded in the +2 reliable double pistol for two +1 reliable pistols. Since there is nothing that says pistols are light weapons I gave then the -4 penalty for two weapon fighting. Using point blank shot, deadly aim and rapid shot against a touch ac of 12 yields:

+10/+10/+10/+5/+5, 1d8+14 dmg

DPR Average 90.42
Attack +1 2.13
Damage +1 3.80
Extra Attack: 20.21

If you think pistols should count as light the dpr climbs to 98.93.

Although there is no chance of the pistols exploding there is still the almost 25% chance of misfiring each round. I have not calculated in the chance of misfire. If a pistol does misfire its probably better to keep fighting with just one pistol instead of clearing it. Then when your second pistol misfires you can spend the next turn to use one grit to fix one pistol as a move action and clear the other as a standard action.

Kaisoku wrote:
ciretose wrote:
Kaisoku wrote:
To be clear, he's challenging the assumption that 1st level counts as part of "increase".
Before 1st level, you have nothing. At 1st level you get 1d6.

I was pointing out the error in Soporific Lotus' reply to Shar Tahl.

Shar Thal was saying that the fact that you can't have a "before level 1" makes it so the term "increase" as it applies to level 1 make no sense.
Soporific Lotus was attempting a strawman (restated the point in different words, but didn't fully capture what he said, and so wasn't actually countering the point he was making). "Either you believe this, or this", neither of which covered his actual point.

Your interpretation is another way of looking at it, however my post you quoted was simply to clear up the strawman mistake (which may have been accidental due to miscomprehension, rather than maliciously intended).

I thought I had deleted my third post as after looking at it I did not think it served any purpose and could also be misconstrued, I apologize for any irritation it may have caused.

I was curious what other people thought as the idea of 2d6 damage at 1st level did not seem right to me at first. It still seems possible to me that they first define that the bomb has a base damage of 1d6 and then they go on to describe the bomb also has a bonus damage tied to level. That one is multiplied on a crit and the other is not separates them to me. If it was all the same damage type I think I would be more inclined to agree that it would only be 1d6 at first level.

I had thought about the idea that the feat progression is similar and in that case you obviously only gain one feat at level one but there is no reference to gaining feats at odd-numbered levels in the text so it really is not a valid counter point. I could see the argument that first level damage is only 1d6 if it had read "every odd-numbered level gained" as it could be reasoned that first level is not gained.

A Man In Black wrote:

k, I'm pretty sure Weapon Adept and Empty Hand do not interact that way, but this thread is not the place to debate it.

However, MIB the gunslinger is no longer a fighter archetype so they do not qualify for weapon specialization.
Oh, for crying out loud. Well, whatever. It was a beta build anyway.

I am sorry to have offended you. I have enjoyed these DPR threads and the many builds you have taken the time to build and analyze and in no way am I trying to harass you about a small error. I just thought for the sake of accuracy it should be pointed out. I look forward to future builds and discussion.

I found a post by James Jacob saying a scimitar is no longer a scimitar in a monk of the empty hands hands. Too bad it was pretty cool.


Shar Tahl wrote:

The chart clears everything up. The PRD is up to date rules.


It is not in any way RAW 2d6 at level 1, since 1d6 is clearly written in the rules, "technically"

The logical flaw in the argument is

Fact 1: Level 1 you gain bombs, which do 1d6

Fact 2 : The damage of an alchemist's bomb increases by 1d6 points at every odd-numbered alchemist level.

You apply Fact 2 to Fact 1 every level up. You ask yourself, "Is this an odd level?". If "yes", increment it 1d6. You do not hit this logic check until you level up, so the fact 2 statement never kicks in since you have not gained any levels yet (Fresh character)

With only two sentences and a chart to parse over I am not sure there is anything else to say. Either the chart is wrong or the text is wrong or you believe that first level does not count as an odd-numbered level.

thepuregamer wrote:

this will be a dervish dancing monk of the empty weapon adept. I think it works but people can let me know if I am off here. I know that a monk treats a normal one handed weapon as a club but he is still in fact wielding a scimitar. Semantically it seems ok. Clearly I wussed out on my ninja b/c getting natural attacks that allow him to qualify for multiattack was becoming a pain( a tusked adopted changeling seemed like such an extreme case).

** spoiler omitted **
used that calculator thingy.

plain flurry dpr= 71.40 and 90.35 if he uses ki to get an extra attack

flurry with power attack=81.78 and 106.75 if he uses ki to get an extra attack

I am not sure how I would calculate perfect strike's impact on dpr.

Sorry about the huge post. A few comments on this build. Its very interesting I like the image of the goblin flailing around. Improved critical does not stack with any other method of expanding a weapon's threat range. Generally monster races are not good for setting a baseline dpr as well as using a conditional feat such as desperate battler and for comparison purposes traits are also being ignored. Anyway, I switched the race to Halfling, removed the traits and took toughness and spring attack instead of desperate battler and improved critical. His DPR drops but it is still very healthy. I am not sure if it is legal or not. Monk of the empty hand has had some developer comments on it that might apply here but I am not sure I would have to find the thread again.

DPR Average 54.40
Attack +1 4.73
Damage +1 2.53
Extra Attack: 16.56

I have no interest in playing an alchemist just something I noticed. Every odd-numbered level includes level 1. As to the chart it could be viewed that the progression is just the bonus damage from gaining odd-numbered levels. In the same way that a rogue's sneak attack damage is in addition to the weapon's base damage, as written the bomb has a base damage of 1d6 + int modifier all of which is multiplied on a critical hit and in addition the bomb deals an extra 1d6 for every odd alchemist level which is not multiplied on a critical hit. So first level damage is 1d6 (base) + 1d6 (alchemist bonus)+ int modifier.

hogarth wrote:
A Man In Black wrote:
With full BAB against touch AC, he also uses Deadly Aim at short range.
I haven't read anything about gunslingers so maybe there's an exception, but generally you can't use Deadly Aim on touch attacks.

In the playtest PDF it makes an exception for firearms so deadly aim is alright.

However, MIB the gunslinger is no longer a fighter archetype so they do not qualify for weapon specialization. I saw you took it as a bonus feat but there is nothing that says gunslingers may pick bonus feats they do not normally qualify for such as how rangers do. This would also prevent you from taking point blank master. If I may suggest taking two weapon fighting, improved twf and using two +1 reliable pistols one would not have to worry about the guns exploding although more shots does mean more regular misfires. Under the rules in the playtest PDF it does not say that reloading a firearm requires having a hand free so firing and reloading two pistols seems like it could work. For a lore justification Roland the gunslinger from the Dark Tower could reload his pistols when wielding both of them using a "finger trick".

Alexa the Alchemist 10 Elf


Str 10
Dec 22 (15 + 2 racial + 1 level + 4 belt)
Con 12 (14 - 2 racial)
Int 16 (13 + 1 level + 2 racial + 2 headband)
Wis 12
Cha 8

HP - 68 (10d8 + 20)

Saving Throws:
Fort +10, Ref +15, Will +6

AC: 24 - Touch 17, Flatfooted 18 (+6 +2 mithral shirt, +6

dex, +1 Amulet of Natural Armor, +1 Ring of Protection)

Attacks: +3 longbow +13/+13/+8, d8+7 dmg (20/x3)

bombs +13/+13/+8, 5d6+5 dmg (fire) 5d4+5 (sonic)

1 Point Blank Shot, Throw Anything
3 Rapid Shot
5 Precise Shot
7 Deadly Aim
9 Multishot


2 Precise bomb
4 Infusion
6 Concussive bomb
8 Fast bombs
10 Sticky bomb

+3 longbow
+2 mithral chain shirt
+1 ring of protection
+1 amulet of natural armor
+2 cloak of resistance
+1 mithral buckler
+4 belt of Dex
+2 headband of Int
bracers of archery, lesser
~3000 gold

Alexa always uses deadly aim, rapid shot and multishot with her bow and uses point blank and rapid shot with her bombs. Her bombs are sticky so they deal an extra 24.75 damage the next round on average which is not included below. The bombs are against a touch AC of 12. She has taken infusion so she is not selfish with her extracts.

+3 longbow +13/+13/+8, d8+7 dmg (20/x3)
bombs +13/+13/+8, 5d6+5 dmg (fire) 5d4+5 (sonic)


DPR Average 21.56
Attack +1 2.47
Damage +1 1.88
Extra Attack: 6.33

Mutagen - Dex

DPR Average 26.51
Attack +1 2.47
Damage +1 2.31
Extra Attack: 7.59

Bombs - throwing 3 fire

DPR Average 63.04
Attack +1 1.15
Damage +1 2.89
Extra Attack: 21.78

With mutagen

DPR Average 65.34
Attack +1 0.00
Damage +1 2.99
Extra Attack: 21.78

Bombs - throwing 3 sonic

DPR Average 49.16
Attack +1 0.89
Damage +1 2.89
Extra Attack: 16.98

With mutagen

DPR Average 50.94
Attack +1 0.00
Damage +1 2.99
Extra Attack: 16.98

This is a redo of the 3/4 base attack caster classes using a bow. Now that heroism and such are not to be applied this is a true baseline. All the builds use the same basic feat progression and assume a human race. One of their feats is variable depending on the class which is noted for each entry. All the builds use a +3 composite bow (+2 str) (bards use a shortbow everyone else gets a longbow) with the listed stats. I left out summoners because they would just do the base damage of an inquisitor. The alchemist is in the next post as they have many differences from these builds. It is always assumed that the character is not in range for point blank shot and they always use rapid shot, multishot and deadly aim.

Their basic attack routine without weapon focus or arcane strike is +13/+13/+8, 1d8+9 dmg


Str 14
Dec 22 (15 + 2 racial + 1 level + 4 belt)
Con 12
casting stat 16 (13 + 1 level + 2 headband)

HP - 68 (10d8 + 20)

+3 longbow +13/+13/+8, 1d8+9 dmg (20/3x)

Saving throws

Fort is +10/+6 if it is good or bad, Ref is +15/+9, Will is always a good save and at a minimum of +8

if an 8 is put in Wis

AC: 24 - Touch 17, Flatfooted 18 (+6 +2 mithral shirt, +6 dex, +1 Amulet of Natural Armor, +1 Ring of



1 Point Blank Shot & Rapid Shot
3 Precise Shot
5 Variable - Weapon Focus/Arcane Strike/Quicken Spell
7 Deadly Aim
9 Multishot


+3 bow
+2 mithral chain shirt
+1 ring of protection
+1 amulet of natural armor
+2 cloak of resistance
+1 mithral buckler
+4 belt of dex
+2 relevant headband
bracers of archery, lesser
handy haversack
~3000 gold left over

A note on the mithral buckler. It has no arcane spell failure penalty or armor check penalty. When the character is using the bow it offers no protection. When casting one can hold the bow one handed in the buckler hand and use the other hand for materials and somatic gestures while maintaining the shield bonus to ac. I am not sure if it works for arcane duelists as they have to hold the bow with both hands to cast as it is their arcane bond.

Bianca the Bard would take arcane strike

Base damage

DPR Average 23.44
Attack +1 2.69
Damage +1 1.88
Extra Attack: 6.88

Arcane strike

DPR Average 29.06
Attack +1 3.33
Damage +1 1.88
Extra Attack: 8.53

Inspire courage

DPR Average 33.42
Attack +1 3.12
Damage +1 2.31
Extra Attack: 9.57


DPR Average 40.34
Attack +1 3.76
Damage +1 2.31
Extra Attack: 11.55

Arial the arcane duelist bard gets arcane strike for free so she would take weapon focus. Arcane duelists use a bonded weapon which means they do not have to spend a feat to upgrade it. So I have given Arial a +4 bow assuming she has enchanted it herself. Obviously, this does not work in PFS but in most home games I imagine it would be ok. Otherwise, Arial is the same as Bianca with weapon focus.


DPR Average 31.12
Attack +1 2.90
Damage +1 2.31
Extra Attack: 8.91

Arcane strike

DPR Average 38.03
Attack +1 3.55
Damage +1 2.31
Extra Attack: 10.89

Inspire courage

DPR Average 42.39
Attack +1 3.33
Damage +1 2.74
Extra Attack: 11.94


DPR Average 50.60
Attack +1 3.98
Damage +1 2.74
Extra Attack: 14.25

Clarice the cleric would take quicken spell

Base Damage

DPR Average 25.31
Attack +1 2.90
Damage +1 1.88
Extra Attack: 7.43

Quickened divine favor

DPR Average 41.58
Attack +1 3.55
Damage +1 2.52
Extra Attack: 11.80

Note that clerics normally are not proficient with longbows. Assume Clarice is a follower of Erastil.

If she wanted better domains she could take martial weapon proficiency and lose deadly aim.

Base Damage

DPR Average 21.16
Attack +1 1.97
Damage +1 2.23
Extra Attack: 5.99

Quickened divine favor

DPR Average 35.63
Attack +1 2.59
Damage +1 2.85
Extra Attack: 9.84

Ingrid the inquisitor would take weapon focus


DPR Average 28.22
Attack +1 2.90
Damage +1 2.09
Extra Attack: 8.17

Judgments - Destruction and Justice

DPR Average 47.86
Attack +1 3.76
Damage +1 2.74
Extra Attack: 13.48


DPR Average 50.96
Attack +1 4.38
Damage +1 2.52
Extra Attack: 15.63


DPR Average 76.77
Attack +1 5.24
Damage +1 3.17
Extra Attack: 22.76

Belle the battle oracle would take quicken spell, weapon mastery for the free weapon focus and improved critical and skill at arms to gain longbow proficiency.


DPR Average 30.11
Attack +1 3.11
Damage +1 2.23
Extra Attack: 8.91

Quickened divine favor

DPR Average 48.18
Attack +1 3.80
Damage +1 2.92
Extra Attack: 13.86

Nothing really flashy. If anyone found this useful I was thinking of doing it with two handed weapons but there is much more variability in each class when using melee weapons.

3 people marked this as FAQ candidate. 1 person marked this as a favorite.

From the PRD

On a direct hit, an alchemist's bomb inflicts 1d6 points of fire damage + additional damage equal to the alchemist's Intelligence modifier. The damage of an alchemist's bomb increases by 1d6 points at every odd-numbered alchemist level (this bonus damage is not multiplied on a critical hit or by using feats such as Vital Strike).

I do not believe this is the RAI but the RAW seems to be that a first level Alchemist would do a base of 1d6 damage plus another 1d6 from first level being an odd numbered level. Similar progressions such as the rogues sneak attack are worded differently and make it clear that at first level the damage is 1d6.

Another pouncing synthesist

Half-elf synthesist summoner 10

Average DPR vs 24 AC 146 (without charging)
+1 hit 15
+1 damage 11
+1 attack 23
vs 24 AC and 10 DR 72


Eidolon base form quadruped
Favored class 2 evolution points
Exotic weapon proficiency racial

144 HP (68 HP from the summoner’s own CON bonus + 76 temporary from the Eidolon and its CON bonus)

Large +3 Bastard Sword (main hand, held two handed) +17/+12 (BAB 8 + 10 STR + 3 Enchant + 1 WF – 1 Size -4 multiweapons) 

4x +1 Large Bastard Swords (off hands, held one handed) +15

Bite +16 (BAB 8 + 10 STR + 1 Enchant – 1 Size - 2 Secondary) 

4 Tentacle +17 (BAB 8 + 10 STR + 1 Enchant +1 weapon focus – 1 Size – 2 Secondary)

STR 31 (14) DEX 18 (8) CON 18 (14) INT 12 WIS 14 CHA 16 Numbers in parentheses are the summoners physical stats when not merged.

AC/Touch/Flat Footed 30/14/27 (10 Base + 4 Mage Armor + 4 Dex + 10 Natural + 2 shield + 1 Deflection – 1 size)

Fort/Reflex/Will +12/+11/+14 (+ 3 resistance + 2 circumstance)

Gear, Feats, Evolutions:
Gear: +3 large bastard sword, 4x +1 large bastard swords, +1 amulet of mighty fists, +4 Belt of strength, +3 Cloak of Resistance, +1 Ring of Protection, Handy Haversack 1500 gp left

Exotic Weapon (bastard sword), Weapon Focus (bastard sword), Weapon Focus (tentacle) Arcane Strike, Double Slice, Two Weapon Fighting,
Multiattack (bonus)

Evolutions 16 points: 
4x Tentacles (4 points) 
Large (4 points) 
3x Arms (6 points) Improved Damage Tentacle (1 point) Pounce (1 point)

A perversion of a build I posted elsewhere inspired by Zurai . Even dumping most protective items this thing is still way over the survival test. You could even drop all the defensive items and still be ok. The summoner does not qualify for two weapon fighting with his low dex but I am assuming that if the merged synthesist refused to sleep for a few days and therefor not lose his merged form, perhaps being refreshed by lesser restoration, the physical stat boosts would count as permeant and he could learn two weapon fighting and double slice. I am not sure how this would scale as he has five weapons and an amulet of mighty fists to upgrade but he really does not seem to need other gear.

Two comments, first if Sam takes the Qinggong archetype and trades out either high jump, slow fall or wholeness of body for barkskin he can drop his hat of wisdom to +2, get rid of the bracers of armor, and amulet of natural armor to upgrade his sword to +4 and have 3000 gold left over to play with while maintaining the same AC when his barkskin is active. Strictly speaking a level 10 character cannot have a +4 weapon as it just violates the WBL guidelines but as two weapon builds use two +3 weapons which have a larger combined cost I think it is reasonable to allow.

With a +4 sword his average damage per round (without using a Ki point) is 63.46. Using a Ki point (or otherwise gaining an additional attack) adds 18.33 DPR, a +1 to hit is worth 5.64 DPR, and +1 to damage is worth 2.52 DPR.

Second, all the fighter archetypes lose armor training so Zelda's maximum DEX bonus is only +1 dropping her AC by one.

I love this thread and the willingness of Paizo to let the curious player see what is behind the curtain. What are your thoughts on companies that are not so open with their customers such as Games Workshop which barely acknowledges that previous editions of their games even exist?

Can a bardic masterpiece be used while maintaining a bardic performance such as inspire courage? Masterpieces obviously consume rounds of performance but its not clear to me if they actually count as bardic performances.

As a reward for being pestered with boring questions here are some questions about Lovecraft. I recently reread The Dream-Quest of Unknown Kadath and it got me thinking about the Dreamlands. Pathfinder contains many examples from the Cthulhu Mythos and a few from the Dream Cycle such as Gugs and men of Leng . Do the Dreamlands fit into the Pathfinder multiverse or are interesting creatures from it sort of imported into the setting? Could it be reached by dreaming or might it actually be part of the material plane or could it exist as a demi-plane? It was recently mentioned that there is life on Golarion’s moon. Could it be inhabited by moon-beasts? I noticed they were not mentioned in the Denizen of Leng entry.

Thank you

I don't think a cleric can beat this setup if you start within 75 feet of each other. Diviner wizard maxes out dex to 36, automatically wins initiative, casts quickened true strike, casts euphoric tranquility with reach and unless he rolls a one he is going to hit you. With no prep time you can only get your touch AC to 31 (10 base + 13 Dex + 5 Ring of protection + 1 pale rose ioun stone + 1 dodge+1 small). The wizard's touch attack will be +43. The wizard then summons a ton of creatures and then on his turn they all attack at once and he casts two spells.

Edit: Didn't notice the change in prep time. I'll have to think about that.

Using the Core, Advanced Players Guide and Ultimate Magic it is possible to get an even higher AC.

25 Point Buy, Gnome Monk 1, Synthesist Summoner 19 (small serpentine eidolon) 

Base: Str 12 (10), Dex 16 (10), Con 13 (10), Int 13, Wis 18, Cha 14 

Values in parentheses are the summoner’s physical stats when unmerged. All of the summoner’s ability increases go to wisdom. All of the eidolon’s ability increases go to dexterity. He takes improved natural armor and dexterity ability increase evolutions. A level 19 Synthesist with a small eidolon has a natural armor of 16, a shield bonus of +4 and a +9 bonus to Dex. He also gets a +4 Manual for dexterity and a +5 Tome for wisdom and wears headbands and belts to increase those stats:

Str 15 (8), Dex 46 (16), Con 13(12), Int 13, Wis 34, Cha 16.

Feats: Dodge, Combat Expertise, Weapon Finesse, Mobility 
Skills: Acrobatics

Evolutions: +2 Natural armor 3x, +2 Ability increase dexterity 4x, arms

Equipment: Ring of Protection +5 (50,000gp) , Amulet of Natural Armor +5 (50,000 gp), Bracers of Armor +8 (64,000gp), Headband of Mental Prowess +6 Wisdom (36,000gp), Belt of Incredible Dexterity +6 (36,000gp), Manual of Quickness in Action +4 (110,500gp), Tome of Clear Thought +5 (137,500gp), Dusty Rose Ioun Stone (5,000gp), +5 Defending Siangham (72,310gp), Monk's Robe (13,000gp) 

Total Price of Equipment: ~573,000 gp

This gets him the following AC: 
10 (Base) + 23 (Dexterity Bonus) + 22 (natural armor) + 4 (shield)
 +12 (Wisdom Bonus) 
+ 1 (Monk) 
+ 1 (Dodge) 
+ 5 (Ring of Protection) 
+ 5 (Amulet of Natural Armor) 
+ 8 (Bracers of Armor) 
+ 1 (Dusty Rose Ioun Stone) 
+ 5 (Defending Siangham) 
+ 5 (Combat Expertise) 
+ 3 (Fighting Defensively) 
+ 1 (Size Bonus)
= 106/67/70

thepuregamer wrote:

Lotus, one thing I noticed is that you took extra evolution. By the raw you need to have the "eidolon" class feature. You have fused eidolon class feature. So its no good. So you will drop 1 evolution point. Not a big deal but thought you should know.

Your right I was thinking about that the other day but forgot to update the build.

1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

10 Half-Orc Synthesis Summoner (Large Eidolon base form quadruped)

Full Attack DPR vs 24 AC: 107
+1 Hit: 5.4
+1 Damage 5.8
Extra Attack 28


HP 165 (77 HP from the summoner’s own CON bonus and favored class + 88 temporary from the Eidolon and its CON bonus)

Large Falchion +22/+17 (BAB 8 + 9 STR + 3 Enchant + 1 WF +2 Heroism – 1 Size)
26 damage (2d6 + 13 Str + 3 Enchant + 3 Arcane Strike)
Bite +17 (BAB 8 + 9 STR + 1 Enchant + 2 Heroism – 1 Size – 2 Secondary)
4 Tentacle +18 (BAB 8 + 9 STR + 1 Enchant + 1 WF + 2 Heroism – 1 Size – 2 Secondary)

STR 29 (12) DEX 18 (10) CON 20 (16) INT 12 WIS 14 CHA 16
Numbers in parentheses are the summoners physical stats when not merged.

AC/Touch/Flat Footed 34/14/30 (10 Base + 4 Mage Armor + 4 Dex + 10 Natural + 4 Barkskin + 2 shield + 1 Deflection – 1 size)

Fort/Reflex/Will +16/+15/+19 (Bonuses +4 resistance +2 circumstance + 2 morale + 2 Iron Will)


Gear: +3 Falchion, +2/+2/+2 Belt, +4 Cloak of Resistance, +1 Ring of Protection, Ring of Counterspells (Dispel Magic), Rod of Extend – Lesser, Handy Haversack

Active Spells:
Barkskin (+4 Natural armor enchant)
Heroism (+2 Hit and save morale)
Greater Magic Fang (+1 Enchant to all natural attacks)

Weapon Focus (falchion)
Weapon Focus (tentacle)
Arcane Strike
Iron Will
Extra Evolution
Multiattack (bonus)

Evolutions 15 points:
4 Tentacles (4 points)
Large (4 points)
Energy Attacks (2 points)
Arms (2 points)
Pounce (1 point)

I built this using the guidelines from the DPR Olympics so it would be easy to compare to a bunch of other builds. That is it was built using the elite array and the build should have a minimum AC of 24, Fort and Will saves of 8, no consumables and spells have to last 10 min/lvl or longer. I used Tejon’s Exel sheet but had to change the to hit boxes because it was tacking on a -4 to hit with the manufactured weapons, and it cannot account for multiattack. I also had to recalculate the natural attack damage because it assumes that all the natural attacks are getting weapon focus and have the same damage die.

Is this overpowered? He out damages a paladin using smite evil versus an evil outsider, dragon ect., has an AC of 34, stellar saves, can almost always get a full attack with pounce, movement of 40, an effective 165 HP and even with his self-buffs he has a modest amount of spell casting left over to help the party. His HP is actually 20 higher because of the Eidolon's greater CON bonus but the summoner risks dying if he uses those HP and the Eidolon is banished. A regular Eidolon can do that damage but I think what makes the synthesist too good is that its saves and AC are so high because of the Eidolon's CON bonus with the summoner's good will save and the shielded ability. In addition they do not have to share a ring of protection so the synthesist's AC just keeps getting higher. A regular synthesist and Eidolon can only have one cloak of resistance and the summoner is not going to have good fort saves and the Eidolon will have a modest will save giving them a vulnerability.

As to healing I don't think anyone can say with certainty how the merged synthesist works with healing. By RAW yes one cannot heal temporary HP but the source of those temp HP is the Eidolon's regular HP. What does that mean? Does the Eidolon get healed if the summoner is healed? They cannot be targeted separately so are they both targeted? I do not know the answers.

Maybe an Inquisitor is a better solo class I'm not sure but in a party this guy is going to outshine anyone else trying to do melee damage. His touch AC is not great at 14 but whose is? The fighters and paladins from the DPR Olympics thread are no better. Rangers and bards are a few points higher. He can also respond to many situations with Evolution Surge. With one spell he can gain a choice of flying, energy immunity, swimming, burrowing, damage reduction, fast healing, or spell resistance.

He has three self-buffs going so his ring of counterspells is against dispel magic. With his rod of lesser extend he can keep them going a long time. I hear a lot of people saying Dismissal is his weakness but look at that Will save of +19. You might as well say he is as weak towards Dismissal as a fighter is to Flesh to Stone. His real weakness is Antimagic Field because the Eidilon needs spell resistance to get a chance to not be banished. If one is really concerned one can take spell resistance as an evolution later on.

I assumed the summoner cannot wear armor or have a mithral buckler. It does not matter too much now but at higher levels when the summoner could buy a +5 chain shirt and a +5 buckler it does matter. In addition, I assumed that Arcane Strike works with all the Eidolon's attacks.

The summoner put a point into CHA and CON. The Eidolon put a point into CON and STR.

1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

Its been confirmed by James Jacob that the summoner can take any of the base Eidolon forms and the Synthesist retains his own form regardless of the base form of the Eidolon. However, when a Synthesist picks an evolution does it manifest on the Synthesist or on the image of the Eidolon?

Most of the time it is irrelevant; if the Eidolon has wings and is banished the Synthesist loses the evolution either way but in some cases it matters. If the Synthesist selects the large evolution it matters because if only the image of the Eidolon grows in size then the Synthesist continues to use his regular sized gear. If the evolution however makes the Synthesist grow in size then all his regular gear would be the too small because its not a polymorph effect. This would also allow the Synthesist to wield large or huge sized weapons. My best guess would be that only the image of the Eidolon grows in size because having the Synthesist shrinking every time he sleeps and bursting out of his clothes every time he grows would be pretty strange. In the case where only the image of the Eidolon changes size do the Eidolon's natural attacks deal a larger damage die and have reach? Would the image of the Eidolon be able to hold things such as manufactured weapons?

A Synthesist can use Reduce Person on himself without the losses from Alter Self because its not a polymorph spell per RAW. You would lose 2 STR but gain 2 DEX. Granted it would not make you Small but it would allow a Huge Synthesist to squeeze through tight spaces.

10 Half-Orc Synthesist Summoner (Eidolon Base form Quadruped)

HP 157.4 (77.9+79.5 temporary)

+3 Falchion +22/+14 (2d4+27)
Bite +14 (1d6+10)
4 Tentacle +15 (1d6+1d6+10)

Full Attack DPR vs 24 AC: 112.8
+1 Hit: 6.6
+1 Damage 4.9
Extra Attack 36.4

STR 27 (12) DEX 18 (10) CON 14 (14) INT 12 WIS 14 CHA 18
Numbers in parentheses are the summoner’s physical stats when not merged.

AC/Touch/Flat Footed 36/14/32 (6 armor, 4 dex, 14 natural armor, 2 shield)

Fort/Reflex/Will +12/+14/+16

Gear: +3 Falchion, +4 STR belt, +3 Cloak of Resistance, +2 Mithral Chain Shirt, Ring of Counterspells (Dispel Magic), Ring of Counterspells (Dismissal), Rod of Extend – Lesser, Handy Haversack

Active Spells:

Greater Magic Fang (+1 to all natural attacks)


Weapon Focus (falchion)
Weapon Focus (tentacle)
Power Attack
Furious Focus
Arcane Strike
Multiattack (bonus)

Evolutions 14 points:

4 Tentacles (4 points)
Improved Damage (tentacle 1 point)
Energy Attacks (2 points)
+4 STR (4 points)
Pounce (1 point)

I built this using the guidelines from the DPR Olympics. I used Tejon’s Excel sheet but had to change the to hit boxes because I took furious focus, it was tacking on a -4 to hit with the manufactured weapons, and it cannot account for multiattack. I also had to recalculate the natural attack damage because it assumes that all the natural attacks are getting weapon focus.

I hope I am doing something wrong in my calculations because this guy is just wrong. He out damages a paladin using smite evil versus an evil outsider, dragon ect., has an AC of 36, stellar saves, can almost always get a full attack with pounce, has two evolution points left over for whatever utility you would want, and even with his self-buffs he has plenty of spell casting left over to help the party with magic. His main weakness is dismissal so I gave him a ring of counterspells for dismissal and even threw in another one for dispel magic or dispel magic greater. He can even get spell resistance if one is really worried about dismissal or anti-magic field. His rod of extend lesser keeps greater magic fang and heroism active essentially all day. He can also use evolution surge to respond to almost any situation.

I applied the improved natural attacks evolutions to all the tentacle attacks, I am not sure if there is a ruling on that but I know some view that evolution as only working on one attack, but even if one removes the evolution his DPR only drops to 110 and then he can spend the point on something else. I also let him wear armor even though Eidolons cannot normally wear armor because the entry says that the summoner can use all of his normal gear when merged. Even if you do not allow that his AC would still be 34 when using mage armor. I also assumed that one cannot take the large evolution because the summoner is medium sized.

As others have pointed out a synthesist does not get as many actions as a regular summoner but this build does not have to worry about the squishy summoner getting killed or have to split magic items across two characters. At level 20 all types of crazy stuff is possible but for level 10 I think this guy is too good.

Kolokotroni wrote:
It it still presents a problem in terms of pacing.

It does but I think there are going to be a lot of RP XP rewards. I think combat is supposed to be a method of last resort. Its funny you mentioned Game of Thrones because I think the GM was thinking about the books when coming up with the setting.

Healing is not as bad as it seems. One person can use heal to give long term care to the rest of the party healing 4 HP per level per day plus extra healing the first day with treat deadly wounds. A d10 HD character has 4.5 + 1-4 HP per level plus full HP first level. So one person can fully heal the rest of the party in two days. That person would then need to be healed by someone else but would have gotten two nights of full rest gaining back a total of 2 HP per level so they would only need one day of long term care to be not totally healed but in good shape. If my cavalier/defender is the main healer my resolute and DR effectively bumps my healing rate so after healing everyone and getting one day of full care I would hopefully be at max HP.

I am expecting that the number of combat encounters will be scaled way back.

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