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Does it deal full damage?
Does it deal full damage + 50%?
Or
Does it deal splash damage + 50%?
By full damage I do not mean maximized dice.
As swarms can't be targeted with single target effects, you have to aim your spalsh weapons at the swarms space, and thus deal minimum damage to swarms.
Because bats are vulnerable to fire you deal minimum damage + 50%.
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As swarms can't be targeted with single target effects, you have to aim your spalsh weapons at the swarms space, and thus deal minimum damage to swarms.
Because bats are vulnerable to fire you deal minimum damage + 50%.
Ok, but if you target a square, and the bats are occupying that square, wouldn't they take full damage from the blast? Is it really splash damage if they're in the square that took the full blast?
Just musings is all. Personally, I'd allow full damage +50%--swarms are enough of a PITA as it is.
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Does it deal full damage?
Does it deal full damage + 50%?
Or
Does it deal splash damage + 50%?By full damage I do not mean maximized dice.
Common sense would indicate that alchemist's fire is an area effect, though different than say a fireball, and therefore the swarm should be affected. Most importantly, This is reinforced by the swarm rule that says swarms suffer +50% from spells or effects that affect an area, such as __splash weapons__, and therefore are NOT immune.. I'd rule that the bat swarm takes full direct hit damage (it's not immune) + 50%.
Also note that you can't target the swarm's square. You can either target the swarm itself (the swarm is "the target" just as if it were an ogre or something) or the closest grid intersection (see below), but not the swarm's square. If you target a grid intersection, then no targets take direct damage -- they are all adjacent and take splash damage.
Throw Splash Weapon Rules
Source: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat#TOC-Throw-Splash-Weapon
-- A splash weapon is a ranged weapon that breaks on impact, splashing or scattering its contents over its target and nearby creatures or objects.
-- A hit deals direct hit damage to the target, and splash damage to all creatures within 5 feet of the target.
-- You can instead target a specific grid intersection... However, if you target a grid intersection, creatures in all adjacent squares are dealt the splash damage, and the direct hit damage is not dealt to any creature. You can't target a grid intersection occupied by a creature, such as a Large or larger creature; in this case, you're aiming at the creature.
Swarm Rules
Source: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/creature-types#TOC-Swar m
-- A swarm is immune to any spell or effect that targets a specific number of creatures (including single-target spells such as disintegrate).
-- A swarm takes half again as much damage (+50%) from spells or effects that affect an area, such as splash weapons and many evocation spells.
-- A single swarm occupies a square (if it is made up of nonflying creatures) or a cube (of flying creatures) 10 feet on a side.
The above statement about the swarm being 10 feet on a side indicates a bat swarm is size large so you can't target a grid intersection occupied by it (meaning the grid intersection in the middle of the 10x10 swarm).
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Although I don't enforce it, MicMan, is correct. Alchemist fire and a alchemist's bombs are considered weapons for the purpose of combat. Under the swarm subtype "A swarm is immune to any spell or effect that targets a specific number of creatures..." This makes swarms of fine/diminutive creatures especially deadly to low-level PC's. Typically, the solution is either to use Burning Hands or alchemist fire. If you enforce RAW, a party of PC's (APL2) without an arcane caster is nearly powerless against a CR1 spider swarm with 9 hp, unless they have a crate-full of alchemist fire.
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Common sense would indicate that alchemist's fire is an area effect, though different than say a fireball, and therefore the swarm should be affected. Most importantly, This is reinforced by the swarm rule that says swarms suffer +50% from spells or effects that affect an area, such as __splash weapons__, and therefore are NOT immune.. I'd rule that the bat swarm takes full direct hit damage (it's not immune) + 50%.
"Common sense" is akin to RAI not RAW. Alchemist fire is not an area affect, it is a special thrown weapon with a secondary effect, splash damage . I do agree with your implementation (use it myself), but it is not supported by RAW and is a house rule. Keep in mind that alchemist fire depends on hitting a solid creature to break the container. It would just pass through a swarm like any other weapon.
Core Rulebook p160..."You can thrown a flask of alchemist's fire as a splash weapon."
Core Rulebook p202..."To attack with a splash weapon, make a ranged touch attack against the target. A hit deals direct hit damage to the target, and splash damage to all creatures within 5 feet of the target."
Bestiary p313..."A swarm is immune to any spell or effect that targets a specific number of creatures"
Bestiary p313..."A swarm takes half again as much damage (+50%) from spells or effects that affect an area, such as splash weapons and many evocation spells"
Combine this all together and it seems that you cannot directly target the swarm with the alchemist fire because it is a weapon that has a single target. You can target a square intersection. Unfortunately, you lose the +50% damage because only 1 point is dealt by the splash and you round 1.5 down.
Core Rulebook p160..."You can thrown a flask of alchemist's fire as a splash weapon."
Core Rulebook p202..."To attack with a splash weapon, make a ranged touch attack against the target. A hit deals direct hit damage to the target, and splash damage to all creatures within 5 feet of the target."
Bestiary p313..."A swarm is immune to any spell or effect that targets a specific number of creatures"
Bestiary p313..."A swarm takes half again as much damage (+50%) from spells or effects that affect an area, such as splash weapons and many evocation spells"
Actually, if you're going to get technical and go hardcore RAW... they are immune to Alchemist's Fire because of the bolded text. The text immediately following that contradicts that statement though by noting SPLASH WEAPONS in the entry. So even if you interpret it correctly, RAW does not support your answer, either, because the text is contradictory.
I rule in favor of full damage, plus. Alchemist's Fire is not going to break the encounter with it's 1d4+50% damage (WHOA.EM.GEE!). /snark
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I've always seen it run where splash weapons do full damage (plus 50%) versus swarms. I can understand how a literal reading could see it as only splash damage but I don't think that's what the developers were thinking.
Since splash weapons are called out as exceptions in the swarm list and since splash damage is 1 point of damage (unless you are an alchemist) and doing an additional 50% of damage to 1 point just doesn't make sense. Also, developers have frequently written swarms as low level threats and splash weapons are the only area effect damage available to many low level parties.
You can chalk this one up as being one of those rules that isn't particularly well written but is well understood by the vast majority of GMs.
Thanks guys. I also play it full damage as a DM. I see that in the rules is not clear and anyone can argue that by RAW this is not supported, so this is why I asked your opinions.
I more question regarding splash damage weapons. Lets say I throw alchemist fire to a medium (M) size creature. I hit it. I deal splash damage to the adjacent squares. Now the question!
XXX
XMX
XXX
If I throw the splash weapon to a Large creature (L) and hit it, do I deal damage to the all the X squares?
XXXX
XLLX
XLLX
XXXX
And if yes then what about a larger creature? By RAW this would be true but I think that it cannot continue for ever? There should be a limit.
So am I interpreting the RAW wrongly or something need clarification?
Thanks guys. I also play it full damage as a DM. I see that in the rules is not clear and anyone can argue that by RAW this is not supported, so this is why I asked your opinions.
I more question regarding splash damage weapons. Lets say I throw alchemist fire to a medium (M) size creature. I hit it. I deal splash damage to the adjacent squares. Now the question!
XXX
XMX
XXXIf I throw the splash weapon to a Large creature (L) and hit it, do I deal damage to the all the X squares?
XXXX
XLLX
XLLX
XXXXAnd if yes then what about a larger creature? By RAW this would be true but I think that it cannot continue for ever? There should be a limit.
So am I interpreting the RAW wrongly or something need clarification?
You'd choose 1 square of the creature's base as the target and the splash effects around that.
You'd choose 1 square of the creature's base as the target and the splash effects around that.
I agree that this is how it should work but this not what the RAW says. Do we all agree that with me and Rathendar? This is how it should work?
I agree that this is how it should work but this not what the RAW says. Do we all agree that with me and Rathendar? This is how it should work?
You'd choose 1 square of the creature's base as the target and the splash effects around that.
Makes good sense.
Makes good sense.I agree that this is how it should work but this not what the RAW says. Do we all agree that with me and Rathendar? This is how it should work?
You'd choose 1 square of the creature's base as the target and the splash effects around that.
+1
My summary for swarms and reasonable ways to deal with them considering a bit of science and game balance, as well as the time honored rule of using what has been given and extrapolating.
1) AC 5 regular grenade rules to hit a grid, not using the touch ac or regular ac of the swarm. If they are in your square well there is no chance of missing! You get some splash but die bug die!
2) Acid and alchemist fire d6 X 50% but no damage the second round with the fire. All the critters that are going to be fried are gotten the first round and if it is a carpet of whatever it isn't like any goes onto the floor to roast those running into it, etc. .
3) d3 against crawling or flying, AC 0 since they are in your space.
4) Smokesticks...ok here is where a bit of science comes into play...air born swarms will avoid them (or those running on a wall/ceiling etc. if in contact with the smoke) unless they have no choice or have a hive mind. Sort of makes you sit there and if the smoke blows away, well...but it gives you a breather...so to speak. Hive mind can blast on through but with a DC 15 fort save or stunned for 1 round, same for those forced in some way into the smoke.
5) And of course the origin of making for some extrapolation is the information that a lantern will do damage over a 15' by 15' area of d4 (no 50% damage boost) going for an AC 5 grid roll which keeps. Compare this to the d3 for two rounds that a flask would do spread on a 5'-5' area or the d6 if you are lucky enough for it to burst into flames without the lantern and just a "fuse" whatever that would be (the old burning rag cocktail idea? Did we learn that one in wizard school or in the thieves guild?). One would guess that alchemist fire does not necessarily burn hotter, just has an accelerant of sorts.
When you compare how supercharged swarms are in a way (serious damage immunities, automatic damage, etc.) there needs to be some significant ways to knock them down or the gods and goddesses of vermin would have been kicked to the curb a long time ago but the other powers that be and their swarms with them. Le Balance....
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Masuku, before you reply to a thread you've found via the Search feature, check to see the date of the last post. There may be newer discussions on the matter that would be more appropriate to respond to, and the rules might have been changed or errata'd since the last comment was made. If you choose a more recent thread to respond to, those posters are also more likely to still be around to respond to you.
This thread is 3 1/2 years old.
Funny side note though:
"1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. Staff response: no reply required."
So obviously the staff decided to shave with Occam's Razor.
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Bestiary p313..."A swarm takes half again as much damage (+50%) from spells or effects that affect an area, such as splash weapons and many evocation spells"Combine this all together and it seems that you cannot directly target the swarm with the alchemist fire because it is a weapon that has a single target. You can target a square intersection. Unfortunately, you lose the +50% damage because only 1 point is dealt by the splash and you round 1.5 down.
Since 1.5 X 1= 1, then that would make the line "A swarm takes half again as much damage (+50%) from s... effects that affect an area, such as splash weapons..." invalid. Thereby it seems they intended splash weapons to do something other than the 1pt vs swarms.
I think Dr. Deth makes a good point in favour of full damage +50%. However, alchemists add their INT bonus to splash damage so the damage is not always 1. That's a corner case though.
The trick is you still have to hit the swarm with your range touch attack and the touch AC for the swarm is calculated based on the size category of an individual member of the swarm, not the swarm itself. So a spider swarm gets a +4 to its AC for being diminutive (a single spider) instead of -1 for being large (the whole swarm). So their 17 touch AC is pretty hard to hit for most 1st-level characters. And if you miss you still only get 1 point of damage.
It's not RAW but I think I will reverse that for the home game I am running.
Peet
Well I'm glad it caught your helpful attention! So has there been a rule change I'm not aware of? I've done some digging to see if there was some alteration or suggestion I liked but didn't find any...I'm sure you have some helpful link at your fingertips? The balance issue just seems to be a struggle at this point. I'm almost tempted just to treat them as a stinking cloud spell and move on. Thanks.