Witches and activating their flight hex... probably a stupid question

[redcapscorner]

The witch's flight hex doesn't list any sort of action necessary to achieve flight. It just says you're limited to 1 minute/level of flight and must use it in minimum 1-minute increments. I realize that the hexes section of the witch description notes that when an action isn't listed for a hex, you should assume it's a standard action to activate, but the way the flight hex reads it really seems like a witch can just choose to eject his or herself into the air at-will without expending any action (other than the move action necessary to move, obviously) as long as air-time doesn't exceed minutes per level. This reading is wrong, right? I should be using a standard action to turn my flight on (and possibly off too)?

Thanks!

[Ender_rpm]

I'm going to be playing a witch this weekend, so any responses have my attention too :) As written, it does seem like the witch basically gets a Fly speed, which is just part few the move action. Which would be pretty bad ass :)

[redcapscorner]

I will say that playing a witch is a lot of fun! It's a great class with a powerful list of spells. If I could get my Advanced Player's Guide wish, a lot of their hexes would be changed to swift actions, because they do have a tendency to require a lot of set-up time if you want to be best utilizing both hexes and spells. By the time I've nerfed some dude's saves with Evil Eye, and bestowed a curse upon him, he's pretty much dead anyway, which can be frustrating. They excel in really hard fights, however, tipping the scales in favour of the PCs when the odds are against them.

Right now, I'm running a 6th-level witch with Misfortune, Evil Eye, Cackle, and Flight. I recommend it! Alternatively, a witch with Fortune and Healing hexes sounds like a lot of fun too. Cackle's a must-have either way!

[MoFiddy]

redcapscorner wrote:

The witch's flight hex doesn't list any sort of action necessary to achieve flight. It just says you're limited to 1 minute/level of flight and must use it in minimum 1-minute increments. I realize that the hexes section of the witch description notes that when an action isn't listed for a hex, you should assume it's a standard action to activate, but the way the flight hex reads it really seems like a witch can just choose to eject his or herself into the air at-will without expending any action (other than the move action necessary to move, obviously) as long as air-time doesn't exceed minutes per level. This reading is wrong, right? I should be using a standard action to turn my flight on (and possibly off too)?

Thanks!

I don't think it works that way. The Flight hex emulate the Feather Fall, Levitate, and Fly spells. Levitate and Fly require standard actions to activate, so I would assume that the hex works the same way (except for Feather Fall, of course).

[ZeroCharisma]

I'm pretty sure the flight hex is activated as a standard action, similar to other hexes.

I've been playing a witch for several sessions now, and have been impressed by the versatility and balance of the class.

With patience, you can have a profound effect on battles in a multitude of ways and often, with perfect timing. In last night's session, I stayed invisible and buffed the party for most of the first fight (against Wyverns) and in the second fight, I maneuvered around, setting up battlefield control with the druid and ultimately ending the fight with a well timed (and poorly saved against) fear. I'm very happy with the class.

Love the change to flight hex in the APGP. Makes it a much better option.

[eakratz]

Thread necro:

For my witch, I had been playing under the assumption that it took a standard action to activate the flight hex. But in the game I am running, last night my player had brought in a new character with the flight hex and he tried to immediately fly and cast a spell in the same round. He was under the assumption that the fly spell function of the hex was always on.

I ruled my way but left it open to look into. He searched today and found only two threads that gave conflicting opinions on Reddit and GitP forums. This is the only other thread I can find. He cited the alchemist discover wings as an example of it working as always on, but the way I read that it looks like it would be a standard action as well.

So, could you fine folk help us determine which is the correct interpretation? I do this knowing his interpretation boosts my own witch :)

[kinevon]

eakratz wrote:

Thread necro:

For my witch, I had been playing under the assumption that it took a standard action to activate the flight hex. But in the game I am running, last night my player had brought in a new character with the flight hex and he tried to immediately fly and cast a spell in the same round. He was under the assumption that the fly spell function of the hex was always on.

I ruled my way but left it open to look into. He searched today and found only two threads that gave conflicting opinions on Reddit and GitP forums. This is the only other thread I can find. He cited the alchemist discover wings as an example of it working as always on, but the way I read that it looks like it would be a standard action as well.

So, could you fine folk help us determine which is the correct interpretation? I do this knowing his interpretation boosts my own witch :)

Note that it cannot be always on, as it is a limited resource, with a duration, total, of only 1 minute per level, so never, in standard Pathfinder, with a pool of minutes bigger than 20.

Always on would drain that pool while thet witch is preparing her spells for the day.

Feather fall option would be an immediate action, usable at will.
Levitate option, once per day, takes a standard action.
Flight option, usable in one minute increments, takes a standard action to activate for the minute.

[Gisher]

APG wrote:

Unless otherwise noted, using a hex is a standard action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity.

The Flight Hex doesn't specify any alternative activation time for flying so it is a standard action. Since it says that you fly as the Fly spell, I suppose you might think that it uses the casting time for that spell - but that is also a standard action.

I guess I'm missing something here, because I don't understand the confusion.

[Melkiador]

What's more interesting is that you don't gain an ability "like" feather fall or levitate. You seemingly cast the actual spells.

[Ycore Rixle]

kinevon wrote:

eakratz wrote:

Thread necro:

Note that it cannot be always on, as it is a limited resource, with a duration, total, of only 1 minute per level, so never, in standard Pathfinder, with a pool of minutes bigger than 20.

Always on would drain that pool while thet witch is preparing her spells for the day.

Feather fall option would be an immediate action, usable at will.
Levitate option, once per day, takes a standard action.
Flight option, usable in one minute increments, takes a standard action to activate for the minute.

To me - and I'm the player in question mentioned a post above - that's a reasonable interpretation if the hex granted you the ability to cast the fly spell. A fly spell has a duration that dwindles whether you're in the air or not.

But the hex doesn't grant you the ability to cast the fly spell. And this is clearly intentional, as the previous sentence, discussing levitate, specifically grants you the ability to cast levitate. In contrast, the sentence discussing flight simply says that the witch can fly for x minutes per day, and that the flight in question is described by the fly spell, and that the x minutes per day can be broken up into minute intervals.

I think the alchemist and his Wings discovery is a useful parallel. That discovery uses virtually the same wording as the witch's hex. Are people playing so that the alchemist must use a standard action to turn his wings on, whatever that means? Are his wings supposed to be hidden in his back and sprout out when the action is used? I had assumed that once he got the discovery, he always had wings and could fly, but the wings would tire out after being used for five minutes in the day. Same goes, I thought, for the witch.

Seems to me that Nails, Child Scent, etc. don't specifically say 'does not require a standard action to activate,' and therefore would also require a standard action to activate. Is that how people are playing?

[Ycore Rixle]

Gisher, the confusion comes from a few things. First, it says that the duration is a day. When is the standard action needed? First thing when the witch wakes up? Every time she touches ground and then wants to take off again? Every minute increment? I think if that had been the intention, the designers would have (certainly should have!) said, "You can use this Hex to cast fly with a duration of one minute, with the exception that the flight granted is supernatural rather than a spell effect. You can use this hex a number of times per day equal to your level."

The confusion also comes because there are numerous other hexes that don't specify an alternative activation time but are clearly intended to be always available - at least I think they're clearly intended to be always available - like Nails and Child Scent.

Finally, this hex is already in a muddle after the nerf to the levitate portion, a nerf that was in direct contravention of the original hex's wording.

Melkiador, I think the text is clear that you don't gain the ability to cast the spell Fly. It says you 'can cast levitate' for the levitate ability, but it uses very different wording for the flight ability.

Oh well.

Actually, I just found the oracle's Wings of Air revelation. The way that is worded is making me think that the Paizo designers meant to say something different than what they actually said. I mean, what they said in Wings of Air is ~ 'you use a swift action, you get wings, you can use them to fly x minutes per day.'

But what they meant to say, I think, is, ~ 'You can use a swift action to make your wings appear. While you have wings, you can fly. You cannot have wings for more than one minute/level per day. While you have wings, you can choose as a free action at the end of each minute to let your wings disappear." That would let you use a single swift action to be able to fly for x consecutive minutes, and that would also let you dismiss your wings after y consecutive minutes and, later in the day, use another swift action to get the wings back and fly for another z minutes. I _think_ that's what must be the intent here - otherwise why the swift action? I just wish they would have said that. So I guess I just argued myself out of my original point.

Ok, now I'm just getting annoyed. I just found this post by SKR http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2n7kz?Alchemist-Wings-Discovery which says the Alchemist doesn't have to activate his wings. They're always there, always available. And since the alchemist ability is the same wording as the Witch ability, I'd say the same goes for the witch - a standard action to activate the Hex, and then the flight ability is always there, for a day, useable when ready, same way the alchemist's wings are after he makes the discovery.

[Casual Viking]

Supernatural abilities, by default, require a standard action to activate. Even abilities that can only be used 1 round/level daily, like a lot of Domain powers, are standard actions to activate.

[Ascalaphus]

A difference is that for the alchemist it's an Extraordinary ability. As SKR notes, the wings are always there.

Extraordinary abilities have different activation rules than supernatural abilities. I image alchemist's wings get sorta tired after a few minutes.

[Ycore Rixle]

Casual Viking, I'm not aware that they do. Do you have a reference for that? I'm looking here: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/special-abilities and it doesn't say that they require a standard action. And I look here: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat and it specifically says that supernatural abilities do not require an action in combat.

I mean, things like the babau demon's slime are supernatural abilities. Do people play that the babau needs to spend an action to activate his slime? When? How often? Once in his life, and then it's there forever? Because the ability makes no mention of a duration.

Ascalaphus, where are the activation rules that you're referring to?

[Obbu]

The hex entries are a little bit confusing at first glance, you need to refer to the class entry for Hex, which tells you its a standard action to use a hex, unless otherwise noted.

Unless otherwise noted, using a hex is a standard action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity. The save to resist a hex is equal to 10 + 1/2 the witch's level + the witch's Intelligence modifier.

For newcomers to the class - it can be a bit confusing. When I first ran a shaman encounter for my group i was similarly confused by their hex, which is located under the class entry as well.

On further reading Re: flight hex

immediate action at will feather fall, per spell (until landing or 1 round/level)

standard action 1/day levitate (1 min/level)

standard action fly duration per day is usable in discrete 1 minute increments, 1 minute per witch level

It doesn't spell out the activation time, so default assumption is that activating time is what the spells say, which would override the catch-all.

The only non-explicit-but-still-RAW part is:

With the discrete fly usage: standard action to start, ends when you want to stop using your increments.

[Bill Dunn]

Obbu wrote:

The hex entries are a little bit confusing at first glance, you need to refer to the class entry for Hex, which tells you its a standard action to use a hex, unless otherwise noted.

Unless otherwise noted, using a hex is a standard action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity. The save to resist a hex is equal to 10 + 1/2 the witch's level + the witch's Intelligence modifier.

As has been pointed out, there are other hexes out there that don't have an action listed for them that wouldn't make sense to require a standard action.

Frankly, I wouldn't consider allowing the witch to fly without a standard action a problem - they're already being charged a move action to actually fly any distance. The way I run it, they get the minute ticker going for every time they leave the ground, minimum of 1 minute charge between the time they take their first move off the ground to when they land.

[eakratz]

It seems to me that allowing the flight without an action would be like a free quicken metamagic feat, that stacks with the actual metamagic feat.

My assumption is exactly as Obbu puts it.

[Obbu]

Bill Dunn wrote:

As has been pointed out, there are other hexes out there that don't have an action listed for them that wouldn't make sense to require a standard action.

Well... Yes and No.

The comparisons to other abilities (not hexes per se) are for other classes abilities by other names, with different text (oracle explicitly gives an action type to activate), different results (growing mutations permanently, with all the RP consequences) with slightly higher level requirements (6-7).

SKR's post doesn't extend to all abilities that grant fly, at least not necessarily, so its hard to tell whether they equate.

Bill Dunn wrote:

Frankly, I wouldn't consider allowing the witch to fly without a standard action a problem - they're already being charged a move action to actually fly any distance. The way I run it, they get the minute ticker going for every time they leave the ground, minimum of 1 minute charge between the time they take their first move off the ground to when they land.

Mmmmmm, I can see how you'd take that for fluff reasons, but considering both the catch all "hexes use 1 standard action" and "fly as per the spell" spell text lists 1 action. I'd go with 1 action.

You've got precedent from a somewhat similar ability, even sans the permanent physical mutation: so its an understandable ruling.

I just can't help but feel its a free contingency effect, but that's just me. It won't ruin your game, but its potentially an additional action in the first round of every combat from the witch, so bear that in mind.

If a druid hangs out in a flight form, he can do similar: so i guess its not too crazy OP? I just disagree that it is RAW :P

[Ascalaphus]

Ycore Rixle wrote:

Ascalaphus, where are the activation rules that

you're referring to?

In the Combat chapter:

Use Special Ability wrote:

Use Special Ability

Using a special ability is usually a standard action, but whether it is a standard action, a full-round action, or not an action at all is defined by the ability.

Spell-Like Abilities (Sp): Using a spell-like ability works like casting a spell in that it requires concentration and provokes attacks of opportunity. Spell-like abilities can be disrupted. If your concentration is broken, the attempt to use the ability fails, but the attempt counts as if you had used the ability. The casting time of a spell-like ability is 1 standard action, unless the ability description notes otherwise.

Using a Spell-Like Ability on the Defensive: You may attempt to use a spell-like ability on the defensive, just as with casting a spell. If the concentration check (DC 15 + double the spell's level) fails, you can't use the ability, but the attempt counts as if you had used the ability.

Supernatural Abilities (Su): Using a supernatural ability is usually a standard action (unless defined otherwise by the ability's description). Its use cannot be disrupted, does not require concentration, and does not provoke attacks of opportunity.

Extraordinary Abilities (Ex): Using an extraordinary ability is usually not an action because most extraordinary abilities automatically happen in a reactive fashion. Those extraordinary abilities that are actions are usually standard actions that cannot be disrupted, do not require concentration, and do not provoke attacks of opportunity.

Clearly, activation rules for Ex and Su abilities are different. For the alchemist-Ex ability we have SKR's say-so that it's not an action. For the witch-Su all we have is the general rule that it's a standard action unless explicitly called out otherwise. Which it isn't.

[Drahliana Moonrunner]

Ycore Rixle wrote:

Gisher, the confusion comes from a few things. First, it says that the duration is a day.

That's your mistake right there.

At 5th level, she can fly, as per the spell, for a number of minutes per day equal to her level. These minutes do not need to be consecutive, but they must be spent in 1-minute increments. This hex only affects the witch.

You get a pool of minutes per day that must be spent at a minimum of one minute per activation. so at 5th level you have a total of five minutes of flight time per day. You activate the hex as a standard action and you can use as much of that pool as you wish until you run out of minutes or decide that you're not spending any more.

[Baku Shadescar]

Standard Action to activate.

At least now, thanks to the recent FAQ, you can officially add +4 to your Fly checks for good maneuverability.

Being a Standard Action to activate was never a confusion I encountered, but it was annoying arguing with people claiming that you never got the +4.

[Ycore Rixle]

Kiddies asleep, presents under the tree, so a few things:

Ascalaphus, thanks for that standard action quote. I had just read that, but I misread it originally. Thanks. It does say here (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/additionalMonsters/universalMonsterRule s.html#flight-(ex,-sp,-or-su) ) that for a creature with supernatural flight, ceasing or resuming flight is a free action. So it seems supernatural flight actually is called out as an exception to the standard action 'rules' for supernatural abilities (quotes because that 'usually' in the standard action paragraph makes it a nonbinding rule, as evidenced by egregious and numerous exceptions from the babau demon I mentioned before to telepathy, see in darkness, cloudwalking, many auras, etc.). But this call-out exception for supernatural flight doesn't really matter, right? Because I think the action you're talking about is not flying but the activation of the hex, and I agree with you that they're two separate things.

In fact, I think that's where a lot of the confusion comes in. People are confusing the action of using a 1-minute increment of flight with the action of activating the Hex.

At least, I think? Seems to me a lot of people, I could be wrong, but I think they are reading that when you activate the hex, you are also activating your first minute of flying for the day. What's actually written is that when the witch activates the hex, 'she can fly, as per the spell, for a number of minutes per day equal to her level. These minutes do not need to be consecutive, but they must be spent in 1-minute increments.'

Which means it works like this: you spend your action to activate the hex. You are now just like the alchemist after he's made his discovery. You can fly x minutes per day. Nothing says you have to start flying right away. When you do fly, it is as if you were under the effects of the fly spell (supernatural, though, not spell), and you can break those x minutes up into single-minute increments used at any point throughout the 24 hours. [[NB it doesn't matter at this point if you're Ex or Su, it's simply a move action to fly, because a) that's how the flight in fly spell works, and b) that's also how the "Flight (Ex or Su)" ability linked above works."]]

I'd also point out that if you say that the Witch needs to spend an action every minute to remain flying, and you also accept SKR's comment, then you are making the alchemist a far, far better flyer than the witch. That doesn't make sense in terms of iconic powers: witches are famous for flying, floating, being lighter than air, while alchemists are known for brewing, jekyll and hyding, bombing teammates into oblivion, etc. As for concerns of being OP, I mean, as other people have mentioned, plenty of other classes get the same ability, alchemist, sorc/wiz, druid, freaking martial classes like bloodrager can get a flight speed as a free action, so... I'm not seeing the OPness.

So that's my thinking on the subject. Merry Christmas, fellow gamers!

[Osprey71]

Has anyone ever found a solid ruling on if flying with the flight hex takes an action?

The wording of several hexes that are broken in to 1-minute increments does seem to suggest that it might take no action to use that ability.

Flight - the fly portion

Rules wrote:

At 5th level, she can fly, as per the spell, for a number of minutes per day equal to her level

Prehensile Hair

Rules wrote:

The witch can manipulate her hair a number of minutes each day equal to her level; these minutes do not need to be consecutive, but must be spent in 1-minute increments.

Tongues

Rules wrote:

A witch with this hex can understand any spoken language for a number of minutes per day equal to her level, as comprehend languages.

No where in those descriptions does it mention "using" the hex. We know using a hex is normally a standard action. But these wordings seem to suggest you just have that ability available when needed for a limited portion of time during any given day that no use of the hex is required to do so.

[Paladin of Baha-who?]

None of these hexes specify an action. Without that, you default to the general rule for hexes: they are Su abilities that take a standard action and do not provoke.

[dragonhunterq]

Paladin of Baha-who? wrote:

None of these hexes specify an action. Without that, you default to the general rule for hexes: they are Su abilities that take a standard action and do not provoke.

^^ solid ruling as requested ^^

[Melkiador]

I think some are arguing that you can "activate" the hex without using up the minutes and just leave the "activated" on throughout the day. So, standard action at the start of the day and then flight as a free action from there until you use up your minutes.

[wraithstrike]

Osprey71 wrote:

Has anyone ever found a solid ruling on if flying with the flight hex takes an action?

The wording of several hexes that are broken in to 1-minute increments does seem to suggest that it might take no action to use that ability.

Flight - the fly portion

Rules wrote:

At 5th level, she can fly, as per the spell, for a number of minutes per day equal to her level

Prehensile Hair

Rules wrote:

The witch can manipulate her hair a number of minutes each day equal to her level; these minutes do not need to be consecutive, but must be spent in 1-minute increments.

Tongues

Rules wrote:

A witch with this hex can understand any spoken language for a number of minutes per day equal to her level, as comprehend languages.

No where in those descriptions does it mention "using" the hex. We know using a hex is normally a standard action. But these wordings seem to suggest you just have that ability available when needed for a limited portion of time during any given day that no use of the hex is required to do so.

The hex is a standard action since it has to be activated. In order for you to break a rule a specific exception such as "this ability does can be used as a free action" needs to be stated. The witch does not have "supernatural flight". It has a supernatual ability which grants flight when it is activated.

[Osprey71]

wraithstrike wrote:

Osprey71 wrote:

Has anyone ever found a solid ruling on if flying with the flight hex takes an action?

The wording of several hexes that are broken in to 1-minute increments does seem to suggest that it might take no action to use that ability.
....
Tongues

Rules wrote:

A witch with this hex can understand any spoken language for a number of minutes per day equal to her level, as comprehend languages.

No where in those descriptions does it mention "using" the hex. We know using a hex is normally a standard action. But these wordings seem to suggest you just have that ability available when needed for a limited portion of time during any given day that no use of the hex is required to do so.

The hex is a standard action since it has to be activated. In order for you to break a rule a specific exception such as "this ability does can be used as a free action" needs to be stated. The witch does not have "supernatural flight". It has a supernatual ability which grants flight when it is activated.

But some hexes give you abilities just simply by having the hex. Yes, typically those are Ex abilities not Su. But the wording of them doesn't depict a usage of the hex like most others do or imply by being applied to a target. Tongues is a great example, it says "A witch with this hex can understand any spoken language". It simply says, if you have this hex you can understand any spoken language. It does not say, using this hex allows you to understand any spoken language.

This is where the argument/confusion comes from.

Same with flight. "At 5th level, she can fly ..." not worded the same as other aspects of the hex "At 1st level, the witch can use feather fall...", " At 3rd level, she can cast levitate ..."

[Lemmy]

The wording makes me think it requires no action at all... It's simply activated at will and stops functioning once it reaches its time limit.

[Snowblind]

Lemmy wrote:

The wording makes me think it requires no action at all... It's simply activated at will and stops functioning once it reaches its time limit.

I agree. It does vaguely imply that the witch has a supernatural ability to fly that stops working after a few minutes.

In any case, the ability could use some clarification.

[James Risner]

Lemmy wrote:

simply activated at will

At will doesn't specify speed, it simply means "unlimited usage".

[Melkiador]

James Risner wrote:

Lemmy wrote:

simply activated at will

At will doesn't specify speed, it simply means "unlimited usage".

In general. It's a pretty misleading use of that phrase in the rules, though. I assume it's just used because it takes up so much less text than the other more descriptive phrases that should be used in its place. If we were to replace every occurence of it with "an unlimited number of times", page counts would be affected.

[Sah]

All the examples that are ex that don't have a specified action, nor a time limit (nails for instance) would fall under require a standard action to activate by RAW. They just don't have a limited duration so you keep them after that one standard action. The flight hex lasts one minute per use, so must be activated with a standard action each time.

[Ravingdork]

I don't believe the intention is that it takes a standard action.

You simply choose to fly by doing so, then the clock starts ticking. If you're in the air for less than a minute, you lose a full minute. If you're in the air for longer, you lose the appropriate amount of time, rounded up to one full minute. Clock stops ticking when you're on the ground. If you're minute hasn't been completely used up, you can continue flying even having landed.

Not all that hard, and seems to mesh well with the idea that witches are physically lighter as a result of this hex. I also don't see it as terribly overpowering compared to other classes which can already have flight on for hours at a time.

[LadyGrayRose]

Advanced Player's Guide wrote:

At 5th level, she can fly, as per the spell, for a number of minutes per day equal to her level.

Standard action, folks.

If the intention was that the Witch could take flight as a free action so long as they had increments of time left, it would be explicitly stated that it was a free action to do so. As is, they are flying as per the spell fly which has a casting time of one standard action.

The fact that the ability doesn't immediately activate upon the witch leaving the ground indicates that it requires some form of conscious effort, and at-will self-only feather fall would be a good bit less useful if the witch can just begin flying as a free action if they fall off of something or hit a pit trap; with that in mind, I cannot think at all that it is the intention of the flight from the hex to be a free action as long as you have increments remaining.

(and, as somebody upthread mentioned, similar supernatural abilities from other classes (such as the swift action wings for a Flame Oracle) explicitly mention if their activation times are other than standard.)

[MrCharisma]

Ravingdork wrote:

I don't believe the intention is that it takes a standard action.

You simply choose to fly by doing so, then the clock starts ticking. If you're in the air for less than a minute, you lose a full minute. If you're in the air for longer, you lose the appropriate amount of time, rounded up to one full minute. Clock stops ticking when you're on the ground. If you're minute hasn't been completely used up, you can continue flying even having landed.

Not all that hard, and seems to mesh well with the idea that witches are physically lighter as a result of this hex. I also don't see it as terribly overpowering compared to other classes which can already have flight on for hours at a time.

Why the TWO YEAR THREAD NECRO Ragingdork?

If you wanted to discuss this with that long a gap (and with 30+ posts) you could have started a new thread. It'd cause less confusion.

Also LadyGrayRose is right, it's a standard action to activate the Flight Hex.

[Ravingdork]

MrCharisma wrote:

Why the two year thread necro Ravingdork?

Because I'm playing a witch soon and am in the process of learning more about them.

Also, I don't believe in making new threads without searching for answers in the archives first. Also, I fail to see how creating a new thread would be less confusing. In any event, a new thread would deprive people of ideas that have come before.

Frankly, I'm surprised we don't see thread necro more often. It would certainly cut down on the clutter of threads around here. It's damned annoying having to go through 50 search results to find the answer I'm looking for in ONE thread (if I'm lucky). If people bothered to keep the same topic in one thread, rather than a half hundred clones, then people might actually be able to find what they are looking for.

[Melkiador]

I wonder how it compares to the synergist witch's flight.

Quote:

At 8th level, during symbiosis the synergist gains any abilities the familiar possesses that are listed under beast shape II. If the familiar can fly, the synergist can fly for a total of 1 minute per witch level she possesses per day while in symbiosis. This duration need not be consecutive, but it must be spent in 1-minute intervals.

I feel in this case there is an intention for the flight not to take a standard action, but Symbiosis is also a supernatural ability.

[Cavall]

It's a standard action to activate. If you choose to end the usage after a minute (or before a full minute is up) then to reactivate would be another standard action. If you choose to keep spending minutes while the hex is currently active, no standard action needed.

That's how the hex works because it gives no other action to activate.

I played a witch for 17 full levels. It was no other reading interpretation other than this for the group.

[Lucy_Valentine]

I am amused by the fact that this is the third necro of this thread, and my head is full of the Count from Sesame Street. Ah-one thread necromancy? Ahahaha!

[MrCharisma]

Ravingdork wrote:

MrCharisma wrote:

Why the two year thread necro Ravingdork?

Because I'm playing a witch soon and am in the process of learning more about them.

Also, I don't believe in making new threads without searching for answers in the archives first. Also, I fail to see how creating a new thread would be less confusing. In any event, a new thread would deprive people of ideas that have come before.

Frankly, I'm surprised we don't see thread necro more often. It would certainly cut down on the clutter of threads around here. It's damned annoying having to go through 50 search results to find the answer I'm looking for in ONE thread (if I'm lucky). If people bothered to keep the same topic in one thread, rather than a half hundred clones, then people might actually be able to find what they are looking for.

Fair enough. I don't really have the same problem with thread necro that a lot of people have on here. My main problem with it is that often people won't notice it's a necro and will answer the old posts instead of the new ones and cause confusion (which is why my question was bold/capitalised - It was mostly to help peolple spot that it was a new question).

My preferred method is to start a new thread but include a link to the old thread(s) so that people can see what's already beem said, and so that anyone searching my thread will get linked to the older ones as well.

To answer the question I agree with Cavall: - Standard to begin, but free to continue if you go over 1 minute (continuously). The text isn't quite clear, so the "free to continue" is probably something you should check with your GM about.

[Dragonchess Player]

The Flight hex is a standard action to activate for the levitate or fly effect, per the general rule on hexes taking a standard action unless otherwise specified. I'd probably allow the feather fall effect to be activated as an immediate action.

For the fly effect, I'd say it stays on until ended; either by the witch deactivating it (free action) or reaching the end of total minutes per day. The "1 minute increments" wording is (IMO) more to prevent the game sessions from bogging down tracking individual rounds of flight ("I use my Flight hex to fly (across the lava, pit, or other hazard; up the cliff; etc.) and then land. That's one round out of 50; I still have 49 left... I use my Flight hex to fly above the trees and do some quick scouting. Three rounds out and three rounds back; that only uses 6 rounds..." And so on.).

[MrCharisma]

Dragonchess Player wrote:

The Flight hex is a standard action to activate for the levitate or fly effect, per the general rule on hexes taking a standard action unless otherwise specified. I'd probably allow the feather fall effect to be activated as an immediate action.

Oh yeah, 100% correct. I didn't even think to include this =P

[_Ozy_]

Quote:

Effect: At 1st level, the witch can use feather fall at will and gains a +4 racial bonus on Swim checks. At 3rd level, she can cast levitate once per day. At 5th level, she can fly, as per the spell, for a number of minutes per day equal to her level. These minutes do not need to be consecutive, but they must be spent in 1-minute increments. This hex only affects the witch.

Does this mean a witch needs to take a standard action to get +4 to swim checks?

[LadyGrayRose]

_Ozy_ wrote:

Quote:

Effect: At 1st level, the witch can use feather fall at will and gains a +4 racial bonus on Swim checks. At 3rd level, she can cast levitate once per day. At 5th level, she can fly, as per the spell, for a number of minutes per day equal to her level. These minutes do not need to be consecutive, but they must be spent in 1-minute increments. This hex only affects the witch.

Does this mean a witch needs to take a standard action to get +4 to swim checks?

No, because the witch gains it as a racial bonus. Generally bonuses are passive (and therefore always active) unless it is explicitly called out as requiring an action to activate or gain the bonus.

[Cavall]

Feather fall is as the spell, which is immediate. Swim is a straight racial bonus. Always on.

Levitate and fly are standards.

I also didn't think to address it, mostly because they weren't in the OP, but if a break down is required that's fine.

Swim always
Feather fall immediate
Levitate standard
Flight standard

Use by the minute with no action cost, reactivated for remaining minutes later on at a standard again.

[Ferious Thune]

If there’s no duration, like on the +4 bonus to swim, then it can be “activated” anytime. Even if it does take a standard, you’d never have to activate it a second time. Keep in mind even things like special abilities on a weapon (flaming, etc) technically take a standard to activate. But since there’s no limit to the duration, there’s no real reason to track/enforce that.

Flight from the hex has a limited duration. So you can’t activate it ahead of time. I run into the same issue with prehensile hair. You have to spend a standard turning it on before you can attack with it.

[_Ozy_]

You guys are assuming the answer without providing support.

If you can 'activate' the flight hex to gain the racial bonus, and thereafter gain that ability without having to spend extra standard actions, then you can 'activate' the flight hex to gain the ability to fly, and use it as you like within the time limits described by the ability.

The wording for the flight ability is nearly identical to that of the alchemist wings, so nothing in that wording suggests that you need to take a standard action to start flying once the flight hex is active.

This is unlike the levitate ability which specifically calls out the need to cast a spell, which is of course a standard action.

The only difference between the alchemist flight and the witch ex flight is that the Hex is itself an SU, while the Wings are EX. Thus, one might argue that 'activating' the Hex is a standard action compared to the Wings. But if the Hex isn't active, then you don't get the +4 bonus, correct?

So, if the Hex is active all the time, such that you get the bonus, then why wouldn't it be active and allow flight since the wording is the same as the Wings ability, since you are't actually 'activating' the hex each time you want to fly?

[Melkiador]

Without some additional developer feedback, I don't think this will ever be resolved. There are logical ways to read this text to have either meaning. And we're really just saying the same points over and over again in the thread.

[Cavall]

The hex isn't always active. The swim portion is.

You arent going to fly up into the sky with levitate during your sleep because it's one time a day and always active so at midnight off you go.

It's a racial bonus meaning its now part of you as part of you're being.

While it's TRUE it's hard to provide support post wise, I doubt featherfall should be a standard action to use on your turn, nor the swim bonus.

I guess "try using logic to reason it out" is the best we can get here. In this sense Melkiador is correct