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The problem with D&D is that it doesn't appeal to scantily-clad women, and I put this down to marketing, especially by Paizo, with its obsession with women encased in non-revealing armour, or the preponderence of gay men, old men and ugly dwarves. We need more scantily-clad women depicted in D&D art - on the cover, inside, everywhere in fact - so that said women with few clothes can feel that D&D really is the game for them, and will want to play. Seoni cannot do this alone. So let's throw off the tyranny of the sexist, clothist white males who think that scantily-clad women should not be depicted in D&D, and show that we really are serious about diversity in the game. I'm sure we agree that the game can only benefit from more scantily-clad women around the gaming table.
Well, once Seelah and Kyra can be convinced to pose for Boris Vallejo...
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Many years ago, I was the supervisor for a junior-high gaming club, 2/3rds of which were girls (who'd been introduced into the hobby through DragonLance novels, by the way.) and what was their favorite game?
Shadowrun. When I asked them why, they couldn't articulate their reasons, but I paid attention, and they felt welcomed by the Shadowrun artwork, which showed competent women in sensible outfits.
I think the first gender/race sensitive edition of D&D rulebooks might have been the D&D Cyclopedia, which came out at about the same time this club started. The "elf" and the thief were women, and fully clothed. the druid was a black man. It wasn't presented as a big deal, just matter of fact. Nicely done.
Worst racism and sexism in an actual D&D product? My vote goes to "Isle of the Ape."
But I'll echo a previous post. A lot of the "Inspirational Reading" authors (Burroughs, Howard, Lovecraft, ...) were happy to write mysogynistic and racist stories. To the extent that D&D uses those tropes --hateful degenerate races; princesses who need rescuing from savages; or the first, great race of people (Numenoreans, Atlanteans, etc.) plainly better than other races-- are we inviting that racism into our games?
Was Aroden caucasian?
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Of course, Shadowrun was set in a recognisably modern world where women don't wear chainmail bikinis. That said, while a lot of the scantily-clad women in D&D might look pretty, I've always had an issue with the fact that much of the gear is ridiculous considering that they are supposed to be adventurers. Seoni looks like she is dressed for a dinner date rather than plumbing the depths of the Underdark. It is, as Chris points out, a trope of D&D that goes to its very core that women are basically sex objects, since much of the literature it is founded on was written in the 20s and 30s and reflects attitudes of the time. Shadowrun arguably had a very different vibe so the whole setting was probably carried less sexist baggage than D&D with its pulp fantasy roots.
Let's be real about the original TSR barbarian for a second. It wasn't just about race. It was about recognition. The barbarian was a big muscular white guy because Conan was a big muscular white guy. I can't count the numer of times I've seen some variation of this image, even from non-caucasion artists.
As far as the scantily clad women? I feel this is cultural with Judeo Christian society. It is an ingrained fear and loathing of human sexuality and the beauty of the nude of partially clothed human form. As an artist I tend to enjoy drawing women more than men A) because Im a hetrosexual Male, And B) because the line and form of a womans body is softer (Especially when doing fantasy art.) I've worked hard to build a game world that doesn't reflect Juedo Christian norms as the default when there isn't a religious equivalent in my world. (A major pet peeve of mine is the use of crosses in fantasy art. Reaper is notorious for this in their minis.)
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As far as the scantily clad women? I feel this is cultural with Judeo Christian society. It is an ingrained fear and loathing of human sexuality and the beauty of the nude of partially clothed human form.
Abrahamic rather than Judaeo Christian -- it's common in Islam and various minor Abrahamic faiths as well.
Hmmm... we could get sex, religion, *and* politics into this thread and still stay on topic! :)
Also, since the Pathfinder iconics are owned by Paizo, and not Wizards of the Coast, we are free to make t-shirts and stickers and miniatures and stuff with abandon.
And Novels...
I'm not really against greater diversity, but it should be pointed out that this diversity drive is being driven by a bunch of white males. Personally, I don't feel too much guilt about my ethnicity, sexuality and so on. I'm in favour of diversity to the extent that it reflects real life (we are not all white, straight males in their thirties, even if most players are) but I hope it doesn't start getting silly (lesbian, one-eyed, one-legged iconics living in a menage a trois) and turn into tokenism.
Well, I was just trying to point out that I really don't need a white male human to idetify myself with the character. All this talk about how a player needs a pic of a similar character in game sounds weird to me. The problem with RL used as a mesure is that it differs greatly from place to place. Quite surprisingly there would be different ethnic composition in Johannesburg or in Oslo. So we first need to pick some place to use as a measure and I don't think it should be placed anywhere on Earth. Some great cultural meeting point of Golarion on the other hand would be just fine...
Still there's no need to stretch it, just trying to say that diversity is welcome.
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As one of the only designers in the world not in the know about the whole issue, I always thought Regdar was black. I based that on the original Lockwood art, and I never bothered to reexamine him in any of the later pieces of art.
I never noticed the Heroes of Horror cover either. Funny.
Yeah, me too. Or at least half'n'half.
I always assumed he looked like Slash, from Guns'n'Roses (or Velvet Revolver, for you young whippersnappers), if Slash were ever to cut his hair.
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And of course, last time I watched Lord of the Rings I didn't see a large number of ethnicities, or even women heroes for that matter.
This is a major point of contention for some literary types. Not only does Tolkein NOT describe any ethnic variation aside from "caucasian elf" and "caucasian Numenorian", he actually goes out of his way to describe many of the more sinister human races/nations who join with Sauron as black or middle eastern (the Corsairs, the elephant riders).
Granted, the book is half a century old, so we can probably lay off the guy. He might have done it intentionally, just like WotC, to prey on our Western fears about the hordes of barbarians banging at the gate.
I think it also says something that most of Paizo's iconics just look cooler than the 3rd Edition gang. Even Valeros.
EDIT: Tharen the Damned is twisted.
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An Iconic Gnoll Druid (with Dire Hyena companion) would rock my world!Perhaps as part of an all 'humanoid' party.
Hobgoblin chain-Fighter
Goblin Wizard
Bugbear Rogue
Kobold Cleric
Gnoll Druid
Orc Monk-grapple-and-bite specialist
I would add a...
Lizardfolk ranger - wielding a trident and kukri with a Constrictor or Viper for an animal companion.
Troglodyte barbarian - attitude, aroma, and a greatclub... when the enemy is doubled over retching from the stench, he bashes in their brains.
What for a sorcerer, though?
As one of the only designers in the world not in the know about the whole issue, I always thought Regdar was black. I based that on the original Lockwood art, and I never bothered to reexamine him in any of the later pieces of art.
I never noticed the Heroes of Horror cover either. Funny.
Yeah, me too. Or at least half'n'half.
I always assumed he looked like Slash, from Guns'n'Roses (or Velvet Revolver, for you young whippersnappers), if Slash were ever to cut his hair.
I picked up a used copy of the Scourge of Worlds DVD game a few years ago, just out of curiosity. It features Regdar, Mialee, and Lidda in a "choose your own path" style adventure. They made Regdar black, or at least of mixed race, in that production. So I guess it's possible to subvert marketing and make a character "ethnically flexible" from time to time.
An Iconic Gnoll Druid (with Dire Hyena companion) would rock my world!Perhaps as part of an all 'humanoid' party.
Hobgoblin chain-Fighter
Goblin Wizard
Bugbear Rogue
Kobold Cleric
Gnoll Druid
Orc Monk-grapple-and-bite specialist
I would add a...
Lizardfolk ranger - wielding a trident and kukri with a Constrictor or Viper for an animal companion.
Troglodyte barbarian - attitude, aroma, and a greatclub... when the enemy is doubled over retching from the stench, he bashes in their brains.
What for a sorcerer, though?
How about uhmm...
A Black "MAN" ...
I remember when I first saw that black man spellcaster in dungeon, my exact words were "Whoa!" I called my brother and told him he responds "Seriously, a black man? Are you sure? Not Arabic or East indian? Wow, those must have slipped that in past Wotc."
I challange Paizo.
If you really want to say something about diversity use a Black male lead. What we talked about in sociology class yesterday was (get this) "Hancock" and the non-existant kiss between Charlize Thereon and Will Smith, which subsequently lead to one of those class sessions where lots of people are shouting.
Now,a fter reading this thread leads me to a shocking conclusion, we don't use "Black" males. There's no black male leads...
One of the guys in class discussed how it takes no courage to use the black female, because we live in a white patriarchal society (still), and she poses no threat to white supremacy, and thus this is why you'll see people using a black female to achieve thier affimitive action roles but never a black male.
So I went to my space and Im'd some folks to make sure I wasn't buying into some crack pot conspiricy mess, and I was right that there's not really black male leads or iconics....
"Except for the guy with the metal Arm?"
I said "Huh?"
my friend (Who is hispanic) says "They in comics and in video games use the black guy with the metal arm all the time. You never noticed? LOL"
I've started counting.
Jax. from MK.
Barret.
Chad from Bleach.
Cyborg from Teen Titans.
Gauntlet from The Initiative.
...And the dungeon sorceror.
I'm not sure what to make of that except....
Paizo, use a ,Black Male ICONIC, for great justice.
*sigh* but its too late isn't it.
edit: It'd be more brave to give him a sword and let him be the dashing swordsman.
Paladin or fighter. I'd suggest barbarian, but I'm sure that'd be uhm... misconstrued somehow.
What about Blade, Axel Foley, the Rock, Shaft, Mace Windu...
But why do we as a culture, when we do try to create a "black male icon", have to depict him in terms of violence and "kick your a$$" attitude? Can't we finally see a strong, black, male iconic depiction that demonstrates the full depth of his true character rather than the reductionist mentality to "de-civilize" him and reduce his threat to the white male hierarchy (as midnight-v referred to the balck woman's depictions)?
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But why do we as a culture, when we do try to create a "black male icon", have to depict him in terms of violence and "kick your a$$" attitude? Can't we finally see a strong, black, male iconic depiction that demonstrates the full depth of his true character rather than the reductionist mentality to "de-civilize" him and reduce his threat to the white male hierarchy (as midnight-v referred to the balck woman's depictions)?
You mean Captain Sisko of DS9?
Granted, the series had several major flaws, but the vast majority of his leadership was expressed in non-violent ways. He was just also able to throw down in a manner that would make Kirk jealous and leave Picard broken like a twig.
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But why do we as a culture, when we do try to create a "black male icon", have to depict him in terms of violence and "kick your a$$" attitude? Can't we finally see a strong, black, male iconic depiction that demonstrates the full depth of his true character rather than the reductionist mentality to "de-civilize" him and reduce his threat to the white male hierarchy (as midnight-v referred to the balck woman's depictions)?
So... if we're still talking about comics and D&D, what exactly are you looking for if not a character that can kick ass?
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You mean Captain Sisko of DS9?
Granted, the series had several major flaws, but the vast majority of his leadership was expressed in non-violent ways. He was just also able to throw down in a manner that would make Kirk jealous and leave Picard broken like a twig.
Damn! I forgot Sisko, the best ST captain ever in my book.
And as much as I love babes, it is good to see depictions of the scantily-clad fantasy chick (especially the embarrassing scantily-clad "damsel in distress sex object") start to diminish. It'll never go away completely, but fully armored and costumed female characters are a fresh change. As a young hopeful fantasy artist myself (Shameless plug), I try to steer clear of that kind of work most of the time. Not that I think they should go away entirely (nor should the loincloth-clad barbarian type, for people into that) but it is definitely time to move forward and I'm encouraged to see that the hobby steadily is moving in that direction.
Agreed! Though some of my artwork has been of the cheesecake variety as of late, I do enjoy sensibly dressed adventurers. Seelah, for example - a paladin ready to kick ass in the name of the faith. While it has been pointed out that Seelah (the black chick turned to do good out of guilt) is a fairly common trope in the comic world, it is not a common stereotype in the fantasy world, and let's face it, she's pretty darn cool.
Bah, why use the wannabe when you could use the original? Go for Frazetta instead.
You sir, are my hero for today. Frazetta is way better than Vallejo or Bell.
*snip*
How about Sheriff Hemlock in RotRL?
What about Blade, Axel Foley, the Rock, Shaft, Mace Windu...
Are you saying that in response to the "guy with the metal arm?"
Okay.1. I was just saying I'd never noticed the one-armed phenomenom.
2. Alex Foley, The rock, and Shaft, are niether "fantasy" heroes
nor sci-fi heroes why would they have a metal arm? What is this commentary supposed to mean?
3. SHAFT? ARE YOU SERIOUS!
4. Mace Windu. "Every time we start talking bout this some "white boy" wanna quote the holy trilogy!"- cookies anyone?
Okay I'll give you Mace windu though about mace windu from wiki:
Mace Windu is one of the earliest named and created characters in Star Wars history, being the narrator of the original 1973 drafts of the original Star Wars film (later named Star Wars Episode IV: A New Hope).[1] Through the process of redrafting and copyediting, his character was removed from the original film and its two successors, however he was reintroduced in 1994 when George Lucas began writing the Star Wars prequel trilogy.
When series creator George Lucas offered Samuel L. Jackson the role of Mace Windu, Jackson signed on, but with certain stipulations on the portrayal of his character. One of the conditions was that his character dies in a spectacular death, rather than be killed off "like some punk."[citation needed]
5. I'll give you blade also. However, nothing on your small list makes it so the "One armed, black guy" doesn't exist it's like 50% of the field, are one armed or sidekicks or both.
I personally would be cool with a soceror, but I been reading all morning and some of these site stated that the majority of black man in hollywood is the "Thug" and the "Magical-negro" (can I say that I'm quoting) ala Bagger Vance and The big guy from the green mile, who exist only to show the white male lead the way.
So I'm just laying it out there, make a black male lead, Iconic, whatever.
If not you're skirting the issue. Don't make it a woman or an east indian or make him gay or crippled or whatever just the black guy who can be the main character.
Chanllenge.
What say you?
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But I'll echo a previous post. A lot of the "Inspirational Reading" authors (Burroughs, Howard, Lovecraft, ...) were happy to write mysogynistic and racist stories. To the extent that D&D uses those tropes --hateful degenerate races; princesses who need rescuing from savages; or the first, great race of people (Numenoreans, Atlanteans, etc.) plainly better than other races-- are we inviting that racism into our games?
Say what?
Edgar Rice Burroughs wrote multiple stories with strong black characters and stronger female characters. Indeed it was almost mandatory that the woman was way too good for the hero at the start, thus driving the entire story as the hero was forced to prove himself over and over again in order to win her. Likewise among all of the cannibals or savages populating his works, it was the civilized white European types who were always worse and then some, choosing to "feed" on their own people not to survive but simply out of greed or lust for power. Even with that he featured almost as many black supporting characters as he did white supporting characters, and portrayed them as having very noble characters.Howard was similar. While there were a few shrinking violets among the women, he also had women like Red Sonja and Belit. And while there were your usual group of black savages, Howard was always more interested in portraying the corruption of "civilized" men as the worst threat, and they were inevitably white European types, constantly betraying each other for some perceived advantage.
This is a major point of contention for some literary types. Not only does Tolkein NOT describe any ethnic variation aside from "caucasian elf" and "caucasian Numenorian", he actually goes out of his way to describe many of the more sinister human races/nations who join with Sauron as black or middle eastern (the Corsairs, the elephant riders).
Why would there have been ethnic diversity? Travel in the time of LotR was extremely difficult. Chances are good you'd never leave your direct surroundings unless you were a trader, and if you lived in Europe (ie where the book was basically set), there'd really be no reason for you to even know other races existed unless you sat in the tavern listening to stories... or fought them in a war.
Because where else was Sauron going to find mercenaries? His neighbors knew he was evil (they had fallen for his lies one too many times), but the people farther off hadn't had dealings with him before, or at least not as much.
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I have no problem with scantily clad female adventurers, no more than I had with Tarzan depicted with a leopardskin loincloth or Conan with a short kilt or fur jockstrap. Heck, John Carter of Mars went around naked, as did his beloved Dejah Thoris.
But I also enjoy the sensibly clad adventurers depicted, of either gender. I've enjoyed seeing women portrayed as powerful and daring in fantasy art, whether or not they were wearing chainmail bikinis. Let the women sling swords and spells alongside their male counterparts with equal gusto.
And I've no problem with an ethnically diverse fantasy world, though I usually like at least a semi-plausible explanation for why diverse racial groups would be found together. I note that D&D 4E now depicts black halflings, and though Tolkien never indicated that hobbits came in other colors, I'll not worry too much if a fantasy version of Africa can develop dark-skinned hobbits along with dark-skinned humans.
The only thing that still gives me the willies is seeing Dwarf women depicted with beards.
:D
How about Sheriff Hemlock in RotRL?
*snip*
Ahh but he's not an Iconic is he?
Good catch though.
oh and DS9 what is that? Deep space 9?
What about DS9?
Its irrelvant to the point, that non one armed men exist, the fact that about have the black guys really are depicted as having one arm is pretty ridiculous.
I read that they intended to kill barret in FF, I mean instead of tifa. Not only that but that to most of the people in the project it was a forgone conclusion. There were like "so how does barret die?" and the head creator was like "What? Barret doesn't die, tifa dies"
Rest of cast "HUH?"
So I'm just saying there are shennigans occuring on some large scale.
Besides, ask yourself, why do you fight against the idea so strongly?
Why all the resitance to an idea paizo will probbably just ignore anyway?
If what really matter is the character sheet and not the color of the pc?
Edit: Those halfing aren't black.LOL!
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Damn! I forgot Sisko, the best ST captain ever in my book.You mean Captain Sisko of DS9?
Granted, the series had several major flaws, but the vast majority of his leadership was expressed in non-violent ways. He was just also able to throw down in a manner that would make Kirk jealous and leave Picard broken like a twig.
Laurence Fishburne's character, Captain Miller in Event Horizon.
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But why do we as a culture, when we do try to create a "black male icon", have to depict him in terms of violence and "kick your a$$" attitude? Can't we finally see a strong, black, male iconic depiction that demonstrates the full depth of his true character rather than the reductionist mentality to "de-civilize" him and reduce his threat to the white male hierarchy (as midnight-v referred to the balck woman's depictions)?You mean Captain Sisko of DS9?
Granted, the series had several major flaws, but the vast majority of his leadership was expressed in non-violent ways. He was just also able to throw down in a manner that would make Kirk jealous and leave Picard broken like a twig.
DS9... Flaws? Now don't go dissing DS9! The BEST of the Star Trek series... Sisko is THE captain! the others are wanna-bes at best who are not worthy to walk in Benjamin Sisko's shadow...
Ok...
back to the discussion. To be honest, speaking as a white man, I would like to see a black man in a leadership role in RPGs. When I see pictures the more diverse the images the more "real" it feels if that makes any sense.
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DS9... Flaws? Now don't go dissing DS9! The BEST of the Star Trek series... Sisko is THE captain! the others are wanna-bes at best who are not worthy to walk in Benjamin Sisko's shadow...
It was the best, it still had more than a few nearly fatal flaws.
I think Sisko as the Captain was one of the few things that salvaged it. Was his race relevant to that? Hard to say.Ok...
back to the discussion. To be honest, speaking as a white man, I would like to see a black man in a leadership role in RPGs. When I see pictures the more diverse the images the more "real" it feels if that makes any sense.
I just want the images to not reflect an agenda. I do not "need" an iconic to be a middle aged, overweight, Jewish dude to be able to identify with the concept. (Another strike against Captain Whitebread. ;) ) I equally do not want some forced attempt to "right the wrongs of the past" or whatever to make the characters so utterly divergent as to wreck any semblance of structure in the setting. If the setting has characters defined as of a particular set of features and skin tone then let the iconics reflect that.
Those Iconic characters. Can Monty explain where there from and why such a diverse group just happened to form as an adventuring party.
They met in a tavern, of course. ;-)
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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I just want the images to not reflect an agenda. I do not "need" an iconic to be a middle aged, overweight, Jewish dude to be able to identify with the concept. (Another strike against Captain Whitebread. ;) ) I equally do not want some forced attempt to "right the wrongs of the past" or whatever to make the characters so utterly divergent as to wreck any semblance of structure in the setting. If the setting has characters defined as of a particular set of features and skin tone then let the iconics reflect that.
What he said. I am not a big fan of diversity for the sake of diversity.
An Iconic Gnoll Druid (with Dire Hyena companion) would rock my world!Perhaps as part of an all 'humanoid' party.
Hobgoblin chain-Fighter
Goblin Wizard
Bugbear Rogue
Kobold Cleric
Gnoll Druid
Orc Monk-grapple-and-bite specialist
I would add a...
Lizardfolk ranger - wielding a trident and kukri with a Constrictor or Viper for an animal companion.
Troglodyte barbarian - attitude, aroma, and a greatclub... when the enemy is doubled over retching from the stench, he bashes in their brains.
What for a sorcerer, though?
Kobold ^^
They are natrally talented
Howard was always more interested in portraying the corruption of "civilized" men as the worst threat, and they were inevitably white European types, constantly betraying each other for some perceived advantage.
Like most of the degenerates in this thread who plainly demonstrated how perversely they get off by "murdering the White guy" in art. Guess Howard was right about civilized people "betraying each other for some perceived advantage ($$$) as this thread amply demonstrates. Further, if people do not identify with their particular ethnicity or Gender then why do people claim to feel excluded if their particular group is not depicted on the cover art?
What he said. I am not a big fan of diversity for the sake of diversity.
I just want the images to not reflect an agenda. I do not "need" an iconic to be a middle aged, overweight, Jewish dude to be able to identify with the concept. (Another strike against Captain Whitebread. ;) ) I equally do not want some forced attempt to "right the wrongs of the past" or whatever to make the characters so utterly divergent as to wreck any semblance of structure in the setting. If the setting has characters defined as of a particular set of features and skin tone then let the iconics reflect that.
Just the opposite for me, actually. Nothing deep or profound behind it, but I tend to find variety of this nature somehow pleasing. That said, it's not a controlling factor for purchases, and I don't go on crusades about it, but, yeah, for some reason it makes things more fun for me, personally.
Setting consistency and structure fall further down the scale, probably because absolutely nothing seems consistent or understandable in my real life, so a rigorous attention to crafting a universe where everything fits perfectly will, in all likelihood, be lost on me. :-)
I'm going to risk some flame and just point out that Drizzt is black.. :)
Hah!
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6
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The metal arm critique seems pretty silly. What about Steve Austin, the various bionic women, the various terminators (those could actually use some racial diversity), Theros Ironfield, Darth Vader, Luke and pre-vader Anakin (hands only), Forge (edit: hand only), Commander Steel, Metallo, the cyborg superman, the major from Ghost in the Shell, Cable, Donald Pierce (X-man villain), and others?
Men(and women) with metal arms are a comic, fantasy and scifi staple, not a "role for the black guy".
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The metal arm critique seems pretty silly. What about Steve Austin, the various bionic women, the various terminators (those could actually use some racial diversity), Theros Ironfield, Darth Vader, Luke and pre-vader Anakin (hands only), Forge, Commander Steel, Metallo, the cyborg superman, the major from Ghost in the Shell, Cable, Donald Pierce (X-man villain), and others?
Men(and women) with metal arms are a comic, fantasy and scifi staple, not a "role for the black guy".
some more off he top of my head: Jaxx from mortal combat
The patriot from an indy comicWinter soldier (bucky) from Marvel
Will Smith's character from I,robot
Howard was always more interested in portraying the corruption of "civilized" men as the worst threat, and they were inevitably white European types, constantly betraying each other for some perceived advantage.Like most of the degenerates in this thread who plainly demonstrated how perversely they get off by "murdering the White guy" in art. Guess Howard was right about civilized people "betraying each other for some perceived advantage ($$$) as this thread amply demonstrates. Further, if people do not identify with their particular ethnicity or Gender then why do people claim to feel excluded if their particular group is not depicted on the cover art?
Well, nobody's telling the artisans to get ridof the white male type entirely, just that the heme doesn't have to dominate the art.
What about the iconics for all races like I mentioned them earlier (a pic similar to PHB 3.5 on p. 12 and 13 for those too lazy to look back a little)? Seems like the talk was taken to different direction before anyone saying yay or nay...
For the sorcerer... maybe fey, maybe hag, medusa, doppleganger... maybe the cleric can get something else. Quo-Toa clerics (Whips) for example may make a good iconic.