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I'll write it for Paizo, if they'll let me! :)
But re: Cheliax -
That said... It's looking like we'll be setting Adventure Path 4 in Cheliax, so you'll be seeing plenty of info about them there. Until then, the upcoming Gazetteer and Hardcover Campaign Setting will give you a few tidbits.
From his post here.
I draw inspirations from Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade, as well as the recent The Mummy movies- where you have religious orders shrouded in secrecy which make them seem villainous, but they're really just very careful. Because the people who oppose them are really terrible, powerful, and ruthlessly evil. So they have to be like holy spies willing to die for their cause.
Prestige Class idea: Disciple of the Chalice
This secretive order of monks was born in Cheliax in the years following the death of Aroden. The members of this persecuted group travel secretly on an endless quest: finding a way to resurrect their God. They hope to bring back peace and order in Cheliax. Clerics and paladins of Aroden who had lost their spells but not their faith founded the order. They believed that every follower of Aroden channeled a shard of their dying God, that each one of them was a chalice of some sort, a receptacle of godly power. By training their minds & bodies they can access and use this of shard godly power (ki).
Prestige Class idea: Disciple of the ChaliceThis secretive order of monks was born in Cheliax in the years following the death of Aroden. The members of this persecuted group travel secretly on an endless quest: finding a way to resurrect their God. They hope to bring back peace and order in Cheliax. Clerics and paladins of Aroden who had lost their spells but not their faith founded the order. They believed that every follower of Aroden channeled a shard of their dying God, that each one of them was a chalice of some sort, a receptacle of godly power. By training their minds & bodies they can access and use this shard godly power (ki).
Pretty cool idea there Anglachel!
Not to offset the cool ideas about secret orders, and visiting ancient, demon-infested nations, but...
I'm finding it interesting the concept of godhood in Golarion. Apparently, it's implied that Aroden, Iomedae, and others have acheived divinty by touching/interacting? with the Starstone. At least that's how I read it...apparently you can touch this stone and become a god (if you survive the process). Maybe it's not that simple - but that was my first take.
So it seems like you have two types of Gods - those that have always been and are primordial (Desna, Llamstu maybe). Then there's the "new order" of gods - mortals who have acheived divinty through some fairly direct process. I'd be curious to know more about this and details of how it all came to pass. I just find the whole idea an interesting way of how defining the pantheon.
Oerth tended to make it sound like most gods were either elemental beings or legendary heroes. To become "divine", it seemed to require another god's patronage and a fairly obtuse process to acquire that divine spark otherwise(witness Zagyg, Vecna, - if you're a Greyhawk fan). Forgotten Realms seemed to imply godhead was an office or position that someone filled by either luck, death of a god, or some specific quest - maybe combinaton of all (witness Kelvemor, Cyric, etc). They seemed more mortal that way; but also less stable - especially with the dependence on worshipers thing.
Golarion's dieties' direct divinity just speaks about how it could be more a matter of moral choice and responsibility - a personal ascension as it were. So far it looks like that makes them more influential and influenced by the mortal world. An interesting take that I'm curious to get more details about.
Also, I'd be curious to know if there's any history there between Aroden, the Thassilonian nations, and the Runelords. Did Aroden have any influence in their downfall; was he someone of import in that empire, etc...
Apologies if that doesn't really match the current line of conversation. Carry on then...
I've been unable to find much information about Aroden.
The reason they don't tell you so much at first is given away in the name itself. Aroden scrambled is read on, and that's just what they want you to do. ;)
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Not to offset the cool ideas about secret orders, and visiting ancient, demon-infested nations, but...
I'm finding it interesting the concept of godhood in Golarion. Apparently, it's implied that Aroden, Iomedae, and others have acheived divinty by touching/interacting? with the Starstone. At least that's how I read it...apparently you can touch this stone and become a god (if you survive the process). Maybe it's not that simple - but that was my first take.
So it seems like you have two types of Gods - those that have always been and are primordial (Desna, Llamstu maybe). Then there's the "new order" of gods - mortals who have acheived divinty through some fairly direct process. I'd be curious to know more about this and details of how it all came to pass. I just find the whole idea an interesting way of how defining the pantheon.
I believe there will be more about this in the Gazeteer, and then more in the Campaign Setting.
Also, I'd be curious to know if there's any history there between Aroden, the Thassilonian nations, and the Runelords. Did Aroden have any influence in their downfall; was he someone of import in that empire, etc...
I don't believe so, since Azlant and Thassilon fell at the same time. And as Aroden was last of the Azlanti, I think he'd be a little too late to have anything to do with Thassilon or the Runelords.
The god's and magic book should further detail the contrast of elder gods and starstone gods. Something I too am REALLY really interested in.
I don't believe so, since Azlant and Thassilon fell at the same time. And as Aroden was last of the Azlanti, I think he'd be a little too late to have anything to do with Thassilon or the Runelords.
I could see that, but the reason I wondered was that certain parallels are noted about Azlant and the Thassilonians from a few sources:
Aroden, the Last of the First Humans, is an immortal descendant of the ancient human kingdom of Azlant, which (mostly) sank below the waters of the Arcadian Ocean west of Thassilon 10,000 years ago, when the Starstone fell from space, created the Inner Sea with its impact, and cast the world into a thousand years of darkness.
Add to that in PF#1:
Bakrakhan, the domain of wrath, shared its eastern border with Shalast, and the two domains were locked in an enduring war until Bakrakhan was destroyed and sunk under the sea during the cataclysm that precipitated Thassilon’s fall. Alaznist, Runelord of Wrath, ruled Bakrakhan...when the world shook and her entire kingdom sank below the waves.To me, that seemed to imply that Azlant and Bakrakhan shared a border (like Bakrakhan's western border, maybe), and they were both more directly affected by the cataclysm at the same time - moreso than other nations (they probably all were, I realize - I just mean by the most direct impact of the stone's fall).
As a result, I tend to think both were active at the same time and they had some interaction - militarily, trading, political?.
The impression I get is that Aroden must have been around sometime before the cataclysm. Granted, he may have been an average Joe just lucky to survive, but I tend to think that he was probably more - king, general, a leader of some sort. Hence my thinking that he (as a ruler) may have had some interaction with Thassilonians - perhaps his nation (Azlant) was neutral or modifying force against the Runelords as it were.
I know its all pure speculation and probably not that important to the overall game world or current campaigns in the PF series. It's just these little nugget of details that I sometimes throw in a campaign for some of my more curious/researching players.
Creative Director
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To me, that seemed to imply that Azlant and Bakrakhan shared a border (like Bakrakhan's western border, maybe), and they were both more directly affected by the cataclysm at the same time - moreso than other nations (they probably all were, I realize - I just mean by the most direct impact of the stone's fall).
Bakrakhan was a relatively small nation; it pretty much took up the Varisian Gulf and then a little bit further out to sea to the west. Azlant was WAY far to the west... there was an ocean between Azlant and Thassilon.
The god's and magic book should further detail the contrast of elder gods and starstone gods. Something I too am REALLY really interested in.
That is a good point. I'd like to see that covered in the upcoming Gods book too.
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Creative Director
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The god's and magic book should further detail the contrast of elder gods and starstone gods. Something I too am REALLY really interested in.That is a good point. I'd like to see that covered in the upcoming Gods book too.
That'll be covered in the Gazetteer, the Hardcover, AND the Gods and Magic book. I suspect mostly in the Gods and Magic book.
Bakrakhan was a relatively small nation; it pretty much took up the Varisian Gulf and then a little bit further out to sea to the west. Azlant was WAY far to the west... there was an ocean between Azlant and Thassilon.
Thanks for the information and clarification. That certainly explains a few things. As I've said elsewhere, I'm a fan of history and these kind of details give Golarion more interesting and unique features.
I look forward to seeing more information - great job, guys!
Sounds like you guys are cooking up a Golarion-shaking cataclysm! Of course, is there any other kind of catclysm? ;-)
Thanks for the information and clarification. That certainly explains a few things. As I've said elsewhere, I'm a fan of history and these kind of details give Golarion more interesting and unique features.
I second this praise. I am pleased with your words, James.
Edit: I couldn't write that with a straight face. :)
Yeah, thanks for the reply.. looking forward to the Gazeteer and the other books.. The Starstone has always been of interest. Thanks again.
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I'm finding it interesting the concept of godhood in Golarion. Apparently, it's implied that Aroden, Iomedae, and others have acheived divinty by touching/interacting? with the Starstone. At least that's how I read it...apparently you can touch this stone and become a god (if you survive the process). Maybe it's not that simple - but that was my first take.
The process behind becoming a god via the Starstone must be extremely interesting: Cayden Cailean apparently did it while mostly or entirely drunk off his ass.
The process behind becoming a god via the Starstone must be extremely interesting: Cayden Cailean apparently did it while mostly or entirely drunk off his ass.
Exactly! I keep thinking that the "old-school" gods keep looking at the "young-punks" gods and saying "how the f%$* did you make it up here? You did WHAT!?" lol
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Director of Brand Strategy
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The process behind becoming a god via the Starstone must be extremely interesting: Cayden Cailean apparently did it while mostly or entirely drunk off his ass.
This is one of the primary mysteries of Golarion that's been picking at me since the world was introduced last year. While none of the specific deities have grabbed me as particularly breathtaking in their design, this old vs. new division among the pantheon does, and the Starstone is a great concept and has me waiting to find out more. What's your source on that info on Cayden Cailean, btw?
Exactly! I keep thinking that the "old-school" gods keep looking at the "young-punks" gods and saying "how the f%$* did you make it up here? You did WHAT!?" lol
The process behind becoming a god via the Starstone must be extremely interesting: Cayden Cailean apparently did it while mostly or entirely drunk off his ass.
Although... the fact that Cayden Cailean could pull it off while at a disadvantage (drunk off his ass) will embolden some players I wager. You know, to try it for themselves. "And I'm not even drunk, so that should count for something, shouldn't it?"
That may not be a bad thing. That's the essence of an exciting story for a player.. But for a GM? That could be a logistical problem. I look forward to Editorial Comment on it.
I'll roll with the punches either way, but I tend to have a problem when NPCs can "out cool" the PCs. I've never been a fan of powerful NPCs like Forgotten Realm has.
What's your source on that info on Cayden Cailean, btw?
I saw it mentioned in the Paizo blog here.
Its under the one titled Gazetteer Timeline. Maybe it was discussed or mentioned in another thread as well - not certain.|
Creative Director
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That may not be a bad thing. That's the essence of an exciting story for a player.. But for a GM? That could be a logistical problem. I look forward to Editorial Comment on it.
Cayden Cailean becoming a god has as much to do with luck as it does actual skill. He's sort of an "accidental" god, really, and I suspect most of the other gods don't really take him seriously yet. We'll have a big article about him in Pathfinder #14, by the way.
As for the exact mechanics of HOW a mortal becomes a god via the Starstone... I suspect that'll remain undefined for a long time. It might eventually be an adventure we publish; it seems like a no-brainer adventure plot, in fact. But that's not something we're quite ready to tackle yet.
Cayden Cailean becoming a god has as much to do with luck as it does actual skill. He's sort of an "accidental" god, really, and I suspect most of the other gods don't really take him seriously yet. We'll have a big article about him in Pathfinder #14, by the way.As for the exact mechanics of HOW a mortal becomes a god via the Starstone... I suspect that'll remain undefined for a long time. It might eventually be an adventure we publish; it seems like a no-brainer adventure plot, in fact. But that's not something we're quite ready to tackle yet.
I don't blame you. I quite understand. If I was in your place I'd leave it undefined for a long time too; so there was no intent on my part to try to get you to tackle it now.
:)
I was just pointing out, that sort of mythology is awesome player bait, and there will be interest. I think you're wise in just not defining it rather than committing yourself to a flat no.
And, *if* you find a way to work around the challenges to a story like that- it's one hell of a seed for a future AP. When the time is right.
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What's your source on that info on Cayden Cailean, btw?I saw it mentioned in the Paizo blog here.
Its under the one titled Gazetteer Timeline. Maybe it was discussed or mentioned in another thread as well - not certain.
That's where I saw it as well.
No.
And they have no one but themselves to blame!
So it seems like you have two types of Gods - those that have always been and are primordial (Desna, Llamstu maybe). Then there's the "new order" of gods - mortals who have acheived divinty through some fairly direct process.
Very perceptive. There are some other special cases (like Irori), but yes, there are the "born as gods" and the "elevated to godhood," and that second category includes both "made a god by another god" (I'd put Arazni here) and "made a god by an artifact" (Norg, Iom, and CC).
I do a little bit of commentary about this in the beginning of the Gods & Magic book.
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Does this look at all correct for the main gods / other gods from CS-
Born gods-
Abadar
Asmodeus
Calistira
Desna
Erastil
Gorum
Gozreh
Pharasma
Rovagug
Shelyn
Torag
Zon-Kuthon
Achaekek (though he's a demigod)
Besmara (?)
Droskar (?)
Ghlaunder
Groetus
Sivanah
Zyphus
Hanspur
Gyronna
Born as powerful outsiders of demigod-like status that rose to full godhood-
Lamashtu (via stealing divinity from Curchanus)
Sarenrae (via an unknown method)
Became Gods Via Artifact-
Aroden (via Starstone)
Cayden Cailean (via Starstone)
Iomedae (via Starstone)
Norgorber (via Starstone)
Became Gods Via Another God-
Arazni (via Aroden)
Droskar (via Torag?)
Milani (via Aroden)
Started Mortal and Became Gods Via Another Method-
Irori (via complete self-perfection)
Nethys (via complete magical knowledge / power)
Urgathoa (via escaping the Boneyard to become the first undead)
Kurgess (via ...worship?)
As it turns out... a fair amount of the folk here at Paizo are Robert E. Howard fans. And Lovecraft. And Jack Vance. And Clark Ashton Smith. And LOTS more of the writers Gygax listed in Appendix N of the 1st edition DMG. Erik reprinted that list in his forward to "The Anubis Murders," our first novel in the Planet Stories line. That list IS D&D.
Now I have to see about buying that book, just for the list if nothing else. I loved it myself when I was growing up, even though when I first saw it I had absolutely no idea who about 90% of those authors were. I think I might do better at the name-recognition now.
And thanks for the info on Aroden, I was wondering about him myself.
Incidentally, the Azlanti were not really the "first" humans, but they were the first to develop cpmplex art, commerce, and culture, so they're the first to hit the historical record.Sounds like Azlant are analogous to the Numenoreans of Tolkien's writings.
-Skled
Well, the Numenoreans were basically Atlanteans -- I think that in the Silmarillion Tolkien said that after Numenor fell they it was called Atalante, 'the Downfallen'.
And I figured on the whole Atlantis/Azlant connection early on.
I read this thread before but forget; is it said that Aroden is absolutelydefinitely dead and gone forever? Or might there be something else afoot?
I'd prefer it if Paizo avoid the "DC Afterlife" trap, where beings supposedly dead return at a later date, with longer hair.
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I read this thread before but forget; is it said that Aroden is absolutelydefinitely dead and gone forever? Or might there be something else afoot?I'd prefer it if Paizo avoid the "DC Afterlife" trap, where beings supposedly dead return at a later date, with longer hair.
I was wondering if he'd gone Somewhere Else, which is why he appeared to have ceased to exist.
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I read this thread before but forget; is it said that Aroden is absolutelydefinitely dead and gone forever? Or might there be something else afoot?
Dead and supposedly dead are two different things. I personally think it would be really cool if Paizo did something with Aroden's return... or purhaps a usurper...
Edit: ^^ look at this, I spelled "perhaps" as "purhaps".
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Creative Director
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Aroden is dead. That's one of the cornerstones of the campaign setting; that humanity was a rising star and its deity was big time cool and was supposed to come back to usher in a new golden age... but instead he died.
We aren't going to bring him back, although we'll periodically have adventures with NCPs who hope he's coming back still or who believe he's only hiding, or even powerful villains who pretend to be him. But Aroden himself is dead.
As for the exact mechanics of HOW a mortal becomes a god via the Starstone... I suspect that'll remain undefined for a long time. It might eventually be an adventure we publish; it seems like a no-brainer adventure plot, in fact. But that's not something we're quite ready to tackle yet.
The Test of the Starstone would ROCK as a high-level AP. What PC who's made it through an AP wouldn't want the chance to become a deity? And then you could transition to a new kind of "epic-level" rules where instead of becoming a ridiculously powerful 40th level mortal, you start over again as a bumbling, newbie 1st-level deity and have to run all kind of FedEx quests for the old-timers to gain levels and they all laugh at you when you get your rear kicked by the epic/deity version of goblins....
I read this thread before but forget; is it said that Aroden is absolutelydefinitely dead and gone forever? Or might there be something else afoot?
I know, but I'm not telling!
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I read this thread before but forget; is it said that Aroden is absolutelydefinitely dead and gone forever? Or might there be something else afoot?I know, but I'm not telling!
*crossing her arms and shaking her head*
sorry old man, your time was due, you should have taken better care of yourself
now shu shu
the rest of us are busy
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Aroden is dead. That's one of the cornerstones of the campaign setting; that humanity was a rising star and its deity was big time cool and was supposed to come back to usher in a new golden age... but instead he died.
We aren't going to bring him back, although we'll periodically have adventures with NCPs who hope he's coming back still or who believe he's only hiding, or even powerful villains who pretend to be him. But Aroden himself is dead.
Do we know how he died ? Might be useful to get rid of those other pesky mortals-turned-godlings. Hell (pun intended), it might even be used to slap Asmodeus back to his proper Devil Archlord status ;P
Those young whippersnappers have no respect. I was godding it when you were still the gleam in your distant ancestor's eyes. I was designing top notch cities and raising artifacts of unspeakable power from the depth of the seas - and my labours made it easier for you youngsters to become gods. Not that I hear any thanks of it.
You let them take over the business, and that's the thanks you get. What is the world coming to?
We took better care of ourselves and our followers in my time, too. I wouldn't have had priestesses that delight to be chased around by insane jesters. I bet that any moment now, she conveniently stumbles so he can catch her.
Decency, it seems, died with me.
I read this thread before but forget; is it said that Aroden is absolutelydefinitely dead and gone forever? Or might there be something else afoot?I know, but I'm not telling!*crossing her arms and shaking her head*
sorry old man, your time was due, you should have taken better care of yourself
now shu shu
the rest of us are busy
You tell him, babe. ;)
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Those young whippersnappers have no respect. I was godding it when you were still the gleam in your distant ancestor's eyes. I was designing top notch cities and raising artifacts of unspeakable power from the depth of the seas - and my labours made it easier for you youngsters to become gods. Not that I hear any thanks of it.
You let them take over the business, and that's the thanks you get. What is the world coming to?
We took better care of ourselves and our followers in my time, too. I wouldn't have had priestesses that delight to be chased around by insane jesters. I bet that any moment now, she conveniently stumbles so he can catch her.
Decency, it seems, died with me.
*cough* still dead *cough*
besides... the taldan degenerates come from somewhere... and I would say that was a lousy job... and your death broke the heart of Cheliax in such way than not even I could save it from Asmodeus (much less considering that thanks toyou dying the world wound opened again... talking about inheriting debts and problems...)... but we are still work in that agenda...
also you know the kind of bureucratic troublws you left for me with Abadar and Asmodeus to deal with? those 2 don't do anything if they don't have a contract... so it was not an smoth change if you me...
and don't come to me with decency and all that... even if mrotals don't remind her I have in mind that you left Arazni alone with something creaper than a clown.
yeah... I know... she should be chasing the insane jester with her sword... but no worries... she will receive her punishment in due time... and not thanks to the same clown
again... move old man... some of us are trying to save the world not just make ourselves grand and famous
Aroden is dead. Muahaha! *checks off that name from the "list of gods to kill" portion of Mydianchlarus's planar scavanger hunt*
... wait a minute. What am I saying? I don't even exist in this world. Bah! Stupid Aroden. Stupid gods!
Bah. He probably just owed you money.
He's just *mostly* dead. With All Dead, there's really only one thing you can do, and that's go through his pockets for loose change. . .
*cough* still dead *cough*
Minor setback. I'm a god, after all.
and your death broke the heart of Cheliax in such way than not even I could save it from Asmodeus
If you must know, I had a bet going with Asmo - he said that when I disappeared, he'd have Cheliax under his heel in less than half a century.
He did it. That proved to me that I chose the wrong guys - and now I owe Asmodeus a beer.
(much less considering that thanks toyou dying the world wound opened again... talking about inheriting debts and problems...)... but we are still work in that agenda...
That's another bet, but I cannot go into details. All I can say is: get your shoulder in it, I've got good money on this one!
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If you must know, I had a bet going with Asmo - he said that when I disappeared, he'd have Cheliax under his heel in less than half a century.
He did it. That proved to me that I chose the wrong guys - and now I owe Asmodeus a beer.
you leave the Worldwound and still the duty of Lastwall and stillbet with Amodeus?
And people ask me why we takeall the iconic...
That's another bet, but I cannot go into details. All I can say is: get your shoulder in it, I've got good money on this one!
*mumble grumble* not even dead ou stop giving me lousy jobs... I hope you are suffering in your death and not just vacationing in Barbados as you ddi when Arazni died...
you left Arazni alone with something creaper than a clown.
Is that a compliment, or maybe a challenge?
she will receive her punishment in due time... and not thanks to the same clown
Punishment? Nothing could be further from my motives! Quite the opposite: I shall reward her.
... wait a minute. What am I saying? I don't even exist in this world. Bah! Stupid Aroden. Stupid gods!
You sure that's not supposed to be "King of the Crossdressed?"
Anyone want to try to stat out a vestige of Aroden?
None. But a Spirit, I could totally see that. At least level 5, I'd say. Give him something like Magnificent Mansion as a power, as well as creation spells to build edifices. Capstone could be something on a grand scale. This would reflect his creation of Absalom
To reflect his raising of the starstone and thus sponsoring of other deities, maybe something like Imbue With Spell Ability.
Also, choose one skill and gain "virtual" ranks in it equal to your level, and you get one bonus feat of your choice (since Aroden was basically a god of Mankind)