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4,701 posts (4,702 including aliases). No reviews. No lists. No wishlists. 1 alias.


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One problem I'm seeing with a lot of "fixes" is that they hinge on existing class features. Of the 33 non-racial Paizo archetypes, 20 trade out bravery, 24 give up at least one of the first two armor trainings (the ones that actually have value), and 19 lose weapon training entirely.

Any fighter fix needs to either go hand in hand with completely scrapping the concept of archetypes across all classes or be purely additive and not hinge on any class abilities.

Hunter is dangerously close to being strictly inferior to druid. It's the class for when your GM bans druids but you still want to play one. It's certainly not a class to pick if you're sick of druids.

I'd be tempted to focus almost purely on survival while giving the casual gamer a simple buff and fight bard or skald build so that between the two of you you can handle most fights, while when he's not around you bravely run away and let the load keep rolling new characters until he stops with the inverse optimization.

An less passive-aggressive option is actually the evangelist. It makes a darn good battle cleric with the extra buff type and a reach build can buy time to summon and buff those.

If things are going to be sandboxy enough you can try to get the casual gamer into a bard or skald and only tackle tricky stuff when he's available. Run a summoner next to that (or the evangelist if you get him into skald) and it hardly matters how good a player he is.

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Undone wrote:
It depends of your level with that feat. My option wold get a save of 12 for a first level spell at level 1 (so, you get it on 8 easily). Academea Graduate give you a save of 16 (good luck).

I had +7 at level 1. It's not hard. It eventually becomes auto succeed but not until like level 7ish.

If you want your fantasy setting to be arcane examples of modern technology, then perhaps PF Core fits. However, if you want to play Conan style games, or something emulating the Roman Empire where formations of soldiers are a threat and not an easy target for a fireball spell (or other area of effect spells.} Some themes of fantasy cannot be best achieved using the standard level of magic. Low magic can better fit the kind of stories that many fantasy settings are based. Standard levels of magic doesn't best fit every theme.
Think of wizards as magical catapults. Devastating entire formations in moments. Catapults accomplish the same as a fireball at that point.

They're really not. Outside RTS catapults don't hit an area. There are low arc arrow catapults that are sort of like lines, but can only go through so many ranks and there are stone throwing catapults that fire one or a small number of non-exploding projectiles. Later on there are cannons that effect lines with skillful gunners on ground hard enough to bounce a cannonball off of. A bit later, around the time what PF calls modern firearms are appearing, you finally get canister, but by then everyone except the cavalry is mostly fighting at range. It's not until timed fuse airburst shells make their appearance that anything resembling fireball appears, and shortly after that people stop fighting in formation and start fighting from trenches.

Artillery of any sort as mobile as a wizard (even a 3.5 wizard with transmutation as a banned school) doesn't appear until the seventeenth century when guns get light enough for a small team of horses to move quickly, but for PF wizards flying artillery isn't a metaphor. Accurate aerial bombardment doesn't come until the twentieth century. Accurate aerial bombardment from a platform that doesn't have to move quickly to stay in the air and can loiter waited until Vietnam.

So, really, nothing like anything you'd see in the Roman or Byzantine army. You might be able to fit evokers into the early modern paradigm if you ban any movement enhancing spell that's actually useful.

Claxon wrote:
Kolokotroni wrote:

Except in theory, the two hande fighter has other advantages over the 2 weapon fighter. Namely a higher dexterity, which can translate to a number of positives that the two handed build doesn't match. Namely, better saves, better stats in a useful set of skills. The non-stabing options that two weapon fighting and a higher dex can provide (higher defenses, extra effects added due to additional attacks made).

So if you want the two weapon fighter to be equal to the task of a two handed fighter in dealing out death, you have to prodive the 2hander with the added features the two weapon gets.

I think you mixed up two handed fighter and two weapon fighter in your first sentence, but otherwise I strongly agree with this sentiment.

If you make two weapon fighters deal as much damage as a two handed fighter, then the two handed fighter needs equal initiative, AC, and reflex saves to the TWF. Because otherwise you are strictly making the TWF superior to the THF.

If initiative and touch AC were so great the two handed fighter would be buying up dex at the expense of strength just like the two weapon fighter and still come out ahead on feat and enhancement costs. The fact that the two handed fighters are not pumping up dex is proof that they're not worth the trade off.

Slayer has bonus feats as a ranger through the slayer talent list. Since the archery style has exactly the feats you want that's far better than fighter/rogue. Wizard 1 Slayer 6 Arcane Archer 8 Eldritch Knight 5 is probably about the closest build to a classic fighter/MU/Thief.

Chess Pwn wrote:

no it's 2 AC.

Light armor - chain shirt AC+4 max dex 4
medium armor - Mithril Breastplate AC+6 max dex 5
no matter how you look at it the mithril is giving more AC and more AC potential. It just probably wouldn't be worth the -1 to attack rolls for it.

Check the page reference.

Elven Chain:
AC+6 max dex 3 counts as light for all purposes including proficiency.

Magda Luckbender wrote:

Comment about the Mithril Breastplate suggestion:

A character with proficiency only in Light Armor is not proficient with Medium Armor, whether mithril or not. Such a character in Mithril Breastplate takes non-proficiency penalties for wearing a Mithril Breastplate. This penalty is either -1 (normally) or zero (0) if the PC has the Armor Expert trait. Thus, this trait, plus 4000 gp, can increase AC by 2.

Lacking the Armor Expert trait it's best to ignore the mithril breastplate option in your case, as it won't help.

The Fates Favored trait, combined with the Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier, gives a +2 AC benefit. Both traits above, plus 9000 gp, would get this PC an extra +4 AC that stacks with everything else.

Only by 1 and that only if they have 20 or more dex. Elven chain on CRB 466 is an exception to the rule that mithril armor does not reduce proficiency requirements, but mithril chain has a max dex of +4 instead of +5 for breastplate.

Orfamay Quest wrote:
kikidmonkey wrote:
Matthew Downie wrote:
Around here, we call mixers 'attempting to cheat the action economy'. I mean, one time I heard of player trying to drink a gin <i>and</i> tonic in a single action. Impossible, I say!
Dont get me started and the Rum and Coke disaster...

Oh, yes, I know that one.

They're lying. It's not coke. No matter how hard you try, you can't snort it.

Why would you want to snort coal residue? I can imagine that you might be able to make something like a molotov by mixing it with rum, but snorting it?

You really need to completely replace the magic system to have MAD casters. The current system just doesn't have enough adjustables. There's just number of spells and save DCs.

A mana system with scaling costs could have three, corresponding to the three mental stats: regeneration, maximum mana, and maximum spell power.

I'd instead merge strength and dexterity. They pretty much describe the same sort of musculature, The fine motor skills go to int or wis and the endurance skills and carrying capacity go to con and the martial stat problem is fixed while the pure casters are down a dump stat.

I would never dip from a bard. It delays important things like performance start action reduction and spell access and just being a strength bard is pretty solid. About like a battle cleric since medium armor proficiency is practically meaningless. You only need 12 charisma to start with if you'll be getting a headband. Wisdom you don't want to dump if you're paranoid about haunts, but a 10 is okay. Int you don't want to dump, but again a 10 is okay.

A stat array of
str 18 (10 buy +2 racial)
dex 14 (5 buy)
con 12 (2 buy)
int 11 (1 buy)
wis 10 (0 buy)
cha 12 (2 buy)
should work. Be a half-orc with Sacred Tattoo. I think there's a trait that increases luck bonuses; if that's PFS legal, take it. Grab reactionary for your other trait. Aim for elven chain until level 8 (maxes with +4 belt or cat's grace). You could dump int to 8 and buy con up to 14 if you aren't worried about having a diverse skill set.

Pick up a quickdraw shield and the quickdraw feat so you can draw and stow it as a free action. Shifting from a one to two handed grip on your longsword is also a free action. Add power attack and arcane strike and you're set. Maybe throw on skill focus intimidate when you have a free feat.

Aid another isn't going to be as good as having another effective combatant. If ever you don't know what to do with your action intimidate to demoralize. Cutting down the other guy's attack is as good as boosting your friend's AC and cutting down his saving throws is something you couldn't do with aid another. Don't forget Blistering Invective for when you need to demoralize a group. Unless your enemies clump themselves up within 30' for you a second level spell and a standard action is cheaper than a full action and a spell known is cheaper than the two feats dazzling display requires.

If you do really want to do aid another don't bother with damage except from arcane strike because there's apparently now a weapon enchant that adds that to some aid checks. You'll be taking a size penalty to intimidate more often, though, and you can't aid another spell save DCs. That's not a build for arcane duelist, though. That's a backup action on a cranked charisma caster build that really suffers from losing versatile performance.

Transformation makes you full BAB. As a 6th level spell you're at least level 11, which puts your BAB gap at 6. I don't see any of those polymorphs giving +12 to any attack stat. If you don't have the right feats you won't be much of a combatant, but that's true of polymorphing as well. If you're a sorcerer, though, you have some seriously martial bonus feat lists and may wind up having the feat support for melee combat. Especially if you're an abyssal sorcerer who will also have an inherent bonus to strength and transformation as your 13th level bonus spell.

If you need to turn a full arcane caster into a martial it's the best spell for the job. That's not a job that often needs doing, but that's just as much an argument against self only polymorphs.


There are elemental planes of fire and electricity. That doesn't make fireball and lightning bolt conjurations.

No conjuration outside the healing subschool primarily involves energy. They're things like acid or snow or hail or fiendish lions or moving the caster.

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The real problem is that strength and dex are really the same thing.

Swinging a sword quickly is the exact same thing as swinging it hard. F=MA and all that jazz.

The kinds of muscle fiber used to swing a sword quickly is exactly the same kind of muscle fiber used to move your body out of the way of a sword or a fireball. It's all fast twitch. Everything from dexterity except disable device, escape artist, sleight of hand, and stealth and everything from strength except carrying capacity, climb, and swim is all fast twitch.

Admit that they're the same thing and merge them and shift fine motor stuff from dex to int or wis and the endurance stuff from strength to con and the whole issue goes away.

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Gulian wrote:
Conjuration and evocation are synonyns my friend.

Not in D&D they're not. Conjuration is concerned with matter. Evocation is concerned with energy. Positive energy is the latter.

Elven Chain is mithril chainmail that counts as light even for proficiency. If you aren't maxing the dex bonus on your mithril breastplate it's pretty much as good except for the slightly higher armor check penalty. Since it's light for all purposes without exception there should be no question it can take the brawling enchantment.

As helpful as the forge model is, it's the noncombat roles that will cause real issues if left unfilled. If you go without combat roles you'll be bad at combat but that's pretty simple to compensate for: run with a larger or higher level party than the module is written for. If you're missing a noncombat role, maybe a role or part of a role won't be important in the adventure, but if it is you can have problems that aren't as simple to GM around.

The key noncombat roles are
and the optional roles are

Most of these roles are not atomic. It may be clumsy, but you can, for example, split face into the talker (diplomacy/bluff) and the listener (sense motive).

The Face role handles interaction. In descending order of importance they are diplomacy, sense motive, bluff, and intimidate.

The Healer fixes things. His job is to be able to pull out neutralize poison, every spell with remove or restore in the name, and use a wand of cure light wounds or infernal healing without chance of failure. Spells with caster level checks (eg. remove disease) need to be known not on wands or scrolls. That makes it pretty much a job for a cleric.

Trapspringer finds and disables or safely triggers traps. Perception is important and either disable device or enough durability to laugh at trap damage. Instakill traps have gone out of style, but if you tank every trap you'll trigger every alarm. (though alarm is not a trap so RAW so will the most skilled trap disabler)

Sage knows the stuff you need to know to interpret clues. You can metagame monster knowledge if no one has the skill points for it, but it's a lot harder to metagame clues. Religion, Arcana, Local, Engineering, History, Nobility, and Geography are most likely to be plot critical. Professions can also be plot critical skills. In Skull and Shackles it's Sailor and

Scout lets you know what to prepare for. He can either use divination magic or stealth. Perception and special vision types are important and bluff is handy. Mobility is also handy. Unfortunately unless done via divination this involves splitting the party unless everyone is sneaky.

The teleporter handles long distance travel. This can't be done at low level and its later availability is one of the more common complaints about high level play so it's often for the best if this role goes unfilled.

Herald wrote:
DominusMegadeus wrote:
Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:
Kthulhu wrote:
Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:
Opuk0 wrote:

Limit full casters to level 6 spells and put out this feat tree

Spell Breakthrough
Can now cast and learn 7th level spells

Improved SB
8th level

Greater SB
9th level

Seems like an unnecessary feat tax. What full caster isn't going to take these feats?

Edit: You may as well just give full casters three less feats.

Making it balanced with martial feats."
I dont see how taking away three feats balances anything, but to each their own.
"If my preffered class is worthless, I'll make all the classes worthless! That'll solve my problems."
Yea , don't see how nerfing spellcasters will be a popular option, but to each their own.

That's not how you nerf casters. The set of problem spells and the set of spells over sixth level are not the same set and while they do intersect neither is a subset of the other. Also, if you allow access to them at all they're still there breaking the game. Taking away feats fixes nothing and really only serves to screw over the sorcerer and oracle who don't get new slot levels at the same level they get feats.

Kthulhu wrote:
Nah, mine is more fun, since you get to see overly entitled wizard players frothing at the mouth and rage-quitting.

Followed by the fighters rage quitting because now no one is casting protection on evil to protect them from dominate person because the cleric thinks divine favor is more important.

Dr.FelixUrr wrote:

I should have put this in the OG post, but here's another combo I've wanted to try out:

Produce Flame + Extend Spell (Metamagic): A nice damage spell for low levels.

Anyone else have feats they like for Druids that aren't the usual summoning feats (eg. Augment Summoning)?

Metamagic. You have good carriers for dazing spell. Lingering spell turns blasts into short duration control. Persistent spell is usually an increase in effectiveness. Heighten might be chosen as a prerequisite for preferred spell. Elemental Spell is pretty limited, but if you wind up preferring and perfecting an elemental damage spell other than flame strike you might want it to get around energy resistance.

Preferred spell and Spell Perfection are also good if you wind up with a default spell choice.

Also, spell focus and greater. A dazing spell build will probably want evocation. Otherwise conjuration and transmutation have potential. Spell Penetration and greater are other good feats.

Improved Initiative is always nice, though you'll eventually be stacking size modifiers to dex from wildshape either as a diminutive animal or a huge air elemental. (The latter should be able to cast spells without natural spell as long as you pick up your component pouch after shaping for the day and whirlwind form counts as stormy weather for boosting call lightning).

Lemmy wrote:
Aelryinth wrote:

Lemmy, you know the same way I do that the same reason paladins, rangers and barbs will take combat feats is because their class features provide for their defenses. Between Superstition, Cha to Saves, evasion, and spellcasting, those classes need to devote very few feats to defense or mobility.

Rangers get a very handy spell list for both defense and combat. Paladins can get a better one.

Rage Powers are at least twice as powerful as combat feats are, because they scale.

And I'm not saying people won't take combat feats. It's more along the lines of, they don't have to spend their combat feats on defenses and mobility, because their class resources provide for those. And in addition, their class resources provide for a great deal of offensive power, so they are not dependent on Combat feats for their versatility or edge in combat.

The fighter is, he NEEDS the feats since they are the majority of his class features, but he also needs the other stuff which other classes get, and he does not.


One more time: I'm not disagreeing with you!

What I'm saying is this: Getting bonus Combat feats is pretty darn close to just getting bonus feats (for a martial class, that is).

Back to my past analogy... The Fighter is getting 500 bucks + health care... Which helps them save money to buy stuff they like. That's a fact. It's just not enough to make them a good class.

Other classes are still better because even though they don't get free health care, they are earn 500 bucks + a bunch of diamonds that are worth far more than the price of the best health care plan ever!

This means Fighters are not as effective as other classes, but it still doesn't change the fact that getting free health care is basically the same as getting the money to pay for health care, since most characters will invest in health care anyway.

Not true. Paladins, for instance, do not need health care, either in or out of the metaphor. The lay on hands augmenting build works just fine on just power attack. There are cleric and druid builds that don't take any combat feats at all. Extra combat feats let you pull off archery and are otherwise kind of meh. That's not to say there aren't enough combat feats worth having to fill a fighter build if they weren't taxed for iron will &co, but for the most part they're stuff you wouldn't miss if you had real class features instead.

This is why there is still no substitute for a real Cleric. Tell the witch player that if his "healer" can't do her job she can retire and he can play a cleric.

Please. Where did he ever say solid adamantine cube? No one would make a collosal adamantine cube solid. That's ridiculously wasteful. You weld maybe a quarter inch of adamantine onto an iron cube.

That's about 194400 cubic inches of adamantine at 0.3 lbs/cubic inch that's a mere 17.5 million gp. A mere twenty level 20 adventurers could afford that and have more than a hundred thousand gp to spare. The iron can be provided by wall of iron because no crafting needs to be performed on them. Just stack them on your base adamantine plate until you have 19' 11 1/2" of the stuff and then weld the side and top pieces of adamantine on. Or you can pull it off even quicker with wall of stone at the expense of density.

Quark Blast wrote:
Atarlost wrote:
<snip>Beren and Luthien had possibly just one magic item between them and Luthien was so epically powerful she could put an entire fortress to sleep. That's thousands of hit dice over a range of probably over a mile most of them through solid rock.<snip>

Precisely my point!

In D&D terms Luthien could sing Morgoth <cough>Orcus<cough> to sleep in his own fortress and both Beren and Luthien could just set Balrogs <cough>Balors<cough> on ignore as they gallivant around the continent.

Very high magic indeed.

And yet it's still low magic by PF standards. There are far fewer magic items; no other planes (and therefore no outsiders except the Ainur) except something that can, if you're extremely generous, call the shadow plane; an entire very large school of magic completely missing apart from the healing subschool; and no divine magic.

Quark Blast wrote:
Arikiel wrote:

Why low magic?

Lord of the Rings, the Conan series, Game of Thrones, etc.
Basically more fantasy novels then I could ever hope to list here.

LotR and Conan were both high magic settings with actual magic users being extremely rare.

GoT seems... either more so or magic is simply the supernatural. Not familiar enough with GoT canon to say for certain.

Compared to Golarion LotR was very low magic. The fellowship averaged a fraction over two magic items per person. The Erebor expedition had six spread across fifteen members if you count Gandalf's bonded object. Beren and Luthien had possibly just one magic item between them and Luthien was so epically powerful she could put an entire fortress to sleep. That's thousands of hit dice over a range of probably over a mile most of them through solid rock.

On the other hand by around sixth level the big six are in place for Pathfinder martials and 4-5 of them for pure casters (possibly substituting mithril or darkwood buckler for armor).

You're right that Middle Earth is a relatively high magic setting, but even it has at most a third the magic items expected for adventurers in default Pathfinder.

Even Harry Potter, which has magic common to the point of banality has almost no adventurer worthy magic items that aren't bags of holding, handy haversacks, or brooms of flying. Hundreds of wizards and there's a grand total of one headband of vast intellect in the British Isles -- implied to be the only one on Earth -- and it's lost. There are apparently a moderate number of cloaks of invisibility and beyond that pretty much nothing.

Robert Asprin's MYTH series is a bit closer, but even so most people aren't lugging large numbers of magic items around. Even people who -ing live at the Bazaar of Deva and are functionally professional adventurers.

Even the highest magic non-D&D settings don't have anything like Golarion.

Kthulhu wrote:

Spell Penetration: Evocation - Spell Penetration for Evocation spells of levels 0-3

Improved Spell Penetration: Evocation - Spell Penetration for Evocation spells of levels 4-6
Greater Improved Spell Penetration: Evocation - - Spell Penetration for Evocation spells of levels 7-9

Yeah, start treating spellcaster feats like they do martial feats...lots of feat taxes, long feat chains, and overly-specialized.


Fighter Patch: (combat feat)
prerequisite: fighter level 6
You receive the benefits of all feats with improved or greater in their name that you qualify for.

Tacticslion wrote:

Question, though: why? What is gained by going there, if "there" is not what those who okay them want them to be?

This is not rhetorical or dismissive. I am honestly asking: what is to be gained by forcing the game dynamic to remain unchanged?

Published APs go there. If most games don't it means people are abandoning APs because the game stops working, leaving many of them with no satisfactory conclusion.

High level is also where the monsters people want to fight are and where most of the interesting martial stuff is hidden and simply because martials can't have anything unrealistic but the dev team still gets embarrassed if there are no martial feats with prerequisites above 8 BAB or martial class abilities after level 6 or 8.

The problem starts with the invisible flying wizard at level 5. That's an encounter that's basically impossible without magic. A martial can use a bow, but only after a friend has glitterdusted or faerie fired the enemy and if he's not an archer he probably doesn't have a magic bow and has to chew through protection from arrows before doing any damage unless a friend casts magic weapon or he has an oil. Things only get worse from there. Where they reach unacceptable varies with who you ask.

Nonscaling spells are enough to keep me from touching 5e. The fighter doesn't have to ration his effective attacks and then attack like he's a level or five lower. There's no point in having multiple levels of spell slots at all if only the highest are useful.

The fundamental problem with the fighter and rogue is that they're designed by people who overvalue all day capabilities. Having 14400 rounds per day of weapon training sounds good until you recognize that you only need it for 20 rounds per day and the barbarian probably has that much rage by level 8.

The monk has the opposite problem. Ki is too small a pool for how long its effects last and how potent they are. They're left with their residual capability pretty much all the time and, like a non-raging barbarian, it's not enough in most combats.

With Paizo finally publishing an archetype that trades all the mounted combat stuff out for decent returns without gutting the rest of his abilities, the cavalier has no real problem anymore except those universal to mundanes. (eg. decent will saves being forbidden to all mundane classes except the aristocrat and expert)

Flawed wrote:

1 level dip of sohei monk with bandit for always act in surprise rounds with a swift, move, and standard action.

You should also take hp the first 4 levels over 4 skills. You already have 10 a level.

Sohei makes for another -1 you can't afford whenever you can't flurry unless you take levels in multiples of 4. Flurry is also only going to give you one attack unless you go to sohei 6. You also can only flurry with monk weapons unless you go to sohei 6.

Sohei is really a much better class and you're probably better off with a 4 level bandit dip on sohei. And taking sohei to 6 if not 8 before the bandit levels.

Ed Reppert wrote:
Orfamay Quest wrote:
Meh. That's what coffee is for.
Coffee is native to Earth. I doubt it even grows on Golarion. :-)

Humans, cats, wolves, horses, tigers, octopi, and ponies are native to Earth but they also exist on Golarion.

If your theme is water the tempest or storm druid archetypes are worth looking at.

Mysterious Stranger wrote:
Atarlost wrote:

The other problem with mixing paladin and rogue is the honor code. Lying and cheating are explicitly prohibited and the "and so forth" is damning. Stealth is deception. Ambushes are deception. Feinting is deception. Stabbing someone in the back while they're distracted by your ally is cheating. Pretty much everything that a rogue is good at is arguably forbidden to paladins.

If your GM is going to run the code RAW do not play a paladin unless you're going to run a straight forward meathead. Sorcerer or bard can pull that off but rogue cannot. (Meathead here meaning as imaginative as a hamsteak but not necessarily stupid. Carrot Ironfounderson is a good example.)

The paladin’s code requires the paladin to act with honor and gives some examples. Stealth and deception are part of tactic. The Art of War has entire sections on the proper use of deception. Nowhere does the paladin’s code say they are not able to use tactics. Not all paladins are knights in shining armor. True many are, but that is not the only path for a paladin to follow.

Unless you're secretly the OP's GM your opinion is worthless. RAW the Paladin must act honorably. The chivalric honor code is more concerned with making sure the sorts of things uppity peasants and women might do to hurt the noble knights are dishonorable than with allowing knights freedom of action. War is the sport of kings and it just wouldn't be seemly to cheat.

Just as Sun Tzu, being an intelligent soldier, gave zero f*%*s for the chivalric ideal; the chivalric ideal, being mostly the product of romantic poets who couldn't tell you which end to hold a sword by, gives zero f*!#s for Sun Tzu. But all those legions of grognards who shout down every attempt to get a non-LG paladin variant on the excuse of literary tradition are proof that it's the dumbest most romanticized interpretation of the paladin that reigns at many tables.

You're making a full attack centered melee character in light armor with no shield and no arcane defenses. Oh, and a weak fortitude save for all those poisonous monsters and energy draining undead to exploit.

I have my doubts about any pure classed rogue, though at sufficiently high level a spring attacking scout/thug focused on debuffing could accomplish something without having to end his turn next to an enemy before accomplishing anything.

I'd second Diva Bard. You're one level away from casting in mithril plate. Just don't cast any spells with somatic components in time sensitive circumstances for a level. You'd be forgoing the DR 3/-- from Adamantine plate until level 11, but you get miss chance illusions to make up for it.

There aren't any generally good nonsomatic first level spells, but Allegro, Bladed Dash, and Blur are decent nonsomatic second level spells. Allegro and possibly Blur would be trade out later choices (allegro is obsolete with haste and mirror image is better than blur once you can cast somatic spells without failure) but Bladed Dash you can happily take and use in heavy armor and not regret having in the future.

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Marroar Gellantara wrote:
RDM42 wrote:
Aelryinth wrote:

IN practical terms, try to improve the fighter's saves with his bonus class feats, and you cannot do it. Period.

That seems pretty practically bad to me.

Except due to having the bonus class feats, you don't need to use his general feats for that purpose and are free to use the general ones. Again.
Now name 11 combat feats that you would actually want and are a meaningful impact at the level you receive them.

Point Blank Shot

Precise Shot
Rapid Shot
Deadly Aim
Weapon Focus (longbow)
Weapon Specialization (longbow)
Greater Weapon Focus (longbow)
Improved Precise Shot
Greater Weapon Specialization (longbow)
Clustered Shots
Point Blank Master
Snap Shot
Improved Snap Shot
Combat Reflexes

That's fifteen

Power Attack
Improved Shield Bash
Two Weapon Fighting
Weapon Focus (kukri)
Weapon Specialization (kukri)
Weapon Focus (heavy shield)
Weapon Specialization (heavy shield)
Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Double Slice
Two Weapon Rend
Greater Weapon Focus (kukri)
Greater Weapon Focus (heavy shield)
Greater Two Weapon Fighting
Greater Weapon Specialization (kukri)
Greater Weapon Specialization (heavy shield)
Shield Slam
Shield Mastery
Bashing Finish
Critical Focus (kukri)

That's nineteen

Power Attack
Weapon Focus (falchion)
Furious Focus
Weapon Specialization (falchion)
Blind Fight
Step Up
Step Up and Strike
Critical Focus (falchion)
Barroom Brawler
Dazing Assault
Sickening Critical
Improved Blind Fight
Stunning Critical
Critical Mastery
Greater Blind Fight

That's sixteen. I can come up with sixteen combat feats I'd like for the least feat taxing style without even picking up a combat maneuver.

If I didn't dump int I'd love to have combat expertise, improved dirty trick, greater dirty trick, dirty trick mastery, and quick dirty trick. That would make twenty-three for sword and board or twenty for two handed weapon.

Can we all finally admit that the opportunity cost of iron will is nontrivial please?

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DC 10 perform gives 7sp/week.
Profession would give 5gp/week with a 10 on the check.

DC 15 perform gives 3.85gp/week.
Profession would give 7gp/week with a 15 on the check.

DC 20 perform gives 11.55gp/week.
Profession would give 10gp/week with a 20 on the check.

DC 25 perform gives 24.5gp/week.
Profession would give 12gp/week with a 25 on the check.

DC 30 perform gives 73.5gp/week
Profession would give 15gp/week with a 30 on the check.

Perform stops scaling at DC 30 but profession keeps going. At a check of 147 profession catches up to performance. I'm not sure that's reachable outside of Pun Pun even with epic rules.

At the DC 20 the OP uses, though, profession is almost as good as perform and since it scales linearly it's far better when you're hitting DC 19 or less.

A level 1 elven wizard with 1 point in a profession skill would have a skill of +4 with 10 wis for a take 10 check of 14 giving 7gp/week. A level 1 elven wizard with max random starting age has 50 years of work. Working 50 weeks a year (I think profession assumes taking one day a week off) his income would be 17500gp. Take off 1200 a year for all 60 years since adulthood and our elven wizard has 10300 gp as his first level nest egg, putting him just 200gp shy of 5th level WBL.

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Zhayne wrote:
FuelDrop wrote:

3) Steal underpants.
I didn't realize they'd created a Panty Raider rogue archetype.

They didn't. That would give rogues a niche. It's a gnome alternate race trait.

The other problem with mixing paladin and rogue is the honor code. Lying and cheating are explicitly prohibited and the "and so forth" is damning. Stealth is deception. Ambushes are deception. Feinting is deception. Stabbing someone in the back while they're distracted by your ally is cheating. Pretty much everything that a rogue is good at is arguably forbidden to paladins.

If your GM is going to run the code RAW do not play a paladin unless you're going to run a straight forward meathead. Sorcerer or bard can pull that off but rogue cannot. (Meathead here meaning as imaginative as a hamsteak but not necessarily stupid. Carrot Ironfounderson is a good example.)

Cleric isn't for the cure line. It's for the remove and restore spells. Warpriest loses too much casting to get them in a timely manner. Oracle doesn't have enough spells known to get them in a timely manner.

Get 18 strength, 12 dex, 13 wisdom, and put the rest in con except enough int to make you content with your skills. Dump charisma down to 7 -- 5 if oreads are allowed.

You can take heavy armor proficiency at first level since you can't get power attack until third. And then you're pretty much done until you grab quicken spell metamagic at ninth. Furious focus is nice. Weapon focus doesn't hurt. Spell focus conjuration, augment summons, sacred summons, and superior summoning are also options if you're getting by adequately on just power attack and quicken.

You could do Chelish Diva bard (Inner Sea Magic; Diva on PFSRD). They get similar skills and a similar spell list to the inquisitor and get the fastest access to heavy armored casting of any arcane class. Since you have proficiency from the paladin side you can cast in mithril fullplate at level 5, about as early as you'd be able to afford it. Your backstory is then an exercise in getting an actor from Cheliax into a paladin order and having him head out to the worldwound where good and evil are refreshingly unambiguous. It practically writes itself. You probably wouldn't want an Aasimar for this backstory, though.

Alternately, you could keep inquisitor and swap out paladin instead. That would give you more leeway on your actions, though WotR is said to be very paladin friendly anyways.

Inquisitor/Monk could do very well using either Zen Archer or Sohei. You can run the conversion inquisiton and reap all the benefits of being charismatic while dumping it as far as you're allowed. Zen Archers substitute wisdom for dexterity and you're using an uncurved point buy so there's no reason not to go all in on wisdom. Sohei, on the other hand works well with Sacred Huntsmaster to give you a mount that actually has the durability gestalt expects and early access to mounted skirmisher.

Chi_ wrote:

How would you make a Gunslinger / Inq work?

Perhaps I have failed my search few but I cannot find anything other then wis that makes it stackable. I also stink at making a good Inq...


You don't build an inquisitor. From a build standpoint an inquisitor is almost a perfectly generic medium combat BAB class. The limits that make building inquisitors tricky don't effect a full BAB gestalt, though, so you build a gunslinger and trawl for ranged or style independent teamwork feats. Oh, and don't pick a firearm that will take a swift action to reload. Move or free you can spare, but swifts are required to activate judgement and bane.

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the secret fire wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:
my point is, that there is no single point of legal precedent you can offer for your view point.

I'm not sure I understand what you're getting at here. By "legal precedent", do you mean RAW?

it ultimately comes down to people not liking that someone can take a low stat and not play that stat.
Heh...if the stats are completely meaningless to you, don't use them. Just re-name them "Bashing Stat", "Arcane Casting Stat", "Diplomacying Stat", and so on. That ought to clear up whatever lingering cognitive dissonance you might have about the blob of numbers on your sheet representing an actual person.

It would be more honest, but we're stuck with the stupid and misleading terminology Gygax propounded.

INT is not intelligence. Intelligence is the ability to solve problems and construct logical arguments. INT is rote knowledge: The stuff of idiot savants.

WIS is not wisdom. Wisdom is the ability to make wise decisions. WIS is the ability to see and hear clearly, balance accounts, and be favored of a god (unless you're a paladin or oracle because Paizo knows the mental stats are pure hogwash even if they don't want to admit it openly).

CHA is not charisma. In what bizzaro universe do people get more charismatic when they're past their prime and running to fat? In what bizzaro universe, for that matter, are intimidation and diplomacy easy for the same kinds of people? And what does any of that have to do with using magic devices or casting spells?

ElCrabofAnger wrote:
Why should somebody who has spent their whole life mastering martial arts be as good in any situation as somebody who spent all their time kissing up to gods for favors? Why should they be as flexible as someone who took the time to learn how to make physical and metaphysical laws sit down and do as they're told? One person can cast mighty magics to create a new dimension to their liking. Is it really unjust that a mere-sword swinger feels less powerful? They are less powerful.

Because the flattery of men is as the bleating of goats to the gods and almost every literary or mythological magic system outside Vance and Zelazney has its own laws, usually either of balance or Murphy.

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The problem with tiering is that it forces genre shift. I want my games to stay in one genre, not force me to jump from gritty realism to silver age comics to golden age comics. They don't call for the same kinds of characters and aren't always suitable for the same social circles. Slogging through progressively less gritty genres to get to what you actually want to play is stupid and having to stop playing or kludge some low power variant there isn't actual support for is also stupid.

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Spotlight balance is toxic. Spotlight balance means that in a party of 4 with one GM 3/5 of the people at the table are playing Angry Birds at any given time.

kestral287 wrote:

Magus has a few very good ways to boost accuracy-- enhancement bonus on the weapon and the Arcane Accuracy arcana are the two biggest ones. That said, Investigator/Magus is cool.

Bloodrager can bring Pounce via Primalist archetype.

Swash can pair with a few casting classes pretty well, honestly. Full BAB, d10 hit dice. Cha dependent abilities means you don't run into MAD issues with Sorcerers or Oracles. Free bonus damage and some nifty defensive tricks help too. For a battle Oracle I'd take it over anything but the Slayer, and even that's a maybe. For a class that's not already using Cha, screw it and love the Slayer.

Enhancement bonus is capped. The amount of accuracy boost the magus can get drops as his weapon's real enhancement rises. Any boost you are only getting because you're enhancing your weapon less than you would if you were some other class isn't a real credit. Arcane Accuracy, I believe, uses arcane pool per attack. That's not a good deal for ki and it's not a good deal for arcana points that you could be using to refresh spell slots if you had some other accuracy source.

The primalist can't get pounce before level 12, can't take extra rage power, and can't get pounce unless he's willing to give up two of his rage powers including his level 12 rage power. I'm not seeing any reason to go bloodrager if you're going to turn around and ditch the bloodline powers.

The swash lacks something of great importance every charisma based class except the paladin and the aforementioned bloodrager really wants: a good fortitude save.

There are many popular plots that require the absence of long range teleportation. There are no popular plots that require its presence. That tells me that we'd be better off without it at any level.

Investigator is a really big deal for gestalt. Studied Combat is a huge bonus and has no use limit. It combos well with anything full BAB except (non-urban) barbarian, bloodrager, and swashbuckler and will tolerate flat stat arrays pretty well if you get it to level 4. It also looks good with magus, which is otherwise a bit light on accuracy boosters for a medium BAB combatant.

Skald is the new bard for selfish martials. It isn't as good a bonus as inspire courage and your allies probably won't thank you for something that they can't use without turning off their skills and casting, but you can get beast totem on a paladin.

Slayer pretty much replaces ranger. It's just more focused.

Arcanist replaces Sage Sorcerer easily and might conceivably be taken over wizard.

Bloodrager doesn't gestalt well for the same reasons barbarian doesn't, and doesn't bring pounce to the table. It might work okay with druid if you don't want to cast in combat.

Shaman has a weak spell list, but can be used anywhere you wished witch was wisdom based and/or could cast in armor.

Swashbuckler is just bad. Use to get a good reflex save on a dervish dancing cleric or druid and that's about it.

Warpriest is pointless. In gestalt you're pretty much always going to be better off using cleric or fighter with whatever you were going to use warpriest.

Brawler might go well with druid, but it fails to bring the saves of a monk and doesn't use weapons.

Hunter is just bad. Pets don't do well in gestalt. Use druid instead. With a domain.

Kryzbyn wrote:
Well now there are Warpriests and Inquisitors. Holy warrior away.

Inquisitors are thematically non-martial. Warpriests are a waste of space failure of class design. I still don't see anyone that can have the skill of a warrior all day every day and have divine support without being of one of two specific alignments.

To do a healer's job the warpriest would need early access to the level>2 non-cure healing spells (ie. heal, breath of life, neutralize potion, and anything with remove or restore in the name) The paladin gives some early access to the lower level stuff, but it doesn't help with the higher. Inquisitor doesn't help at all.

To do a martial's job the warpriest needs full BAB, a non-resource self buff equivalent to full BAB, or 3.5 persistent spell and divine metamagic.

As a misguided paean to the fifteen minute workday it's far too effective as is.

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