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4,688 posts (4,689 including aliases). No reviews. No lists. No wishlists. 1 alias.


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Gulian wrote:
Conjuration and evocation are synonyns my friend.

Not in D&D they're not. Conjuration is concerned with matter. Evocation is concerned with energy. Positive energy is the latter.

Elven Chain is mithril chainmail that counts as light even for proficiency. If you aren't maxing the dex bonus on your mithril breastplate it's pretty much as good except for the slightly higher armor check penalty. Since it's light for all purposes without exception there should be no question it can take the brawling enchantment.

As helpful as the forge model is, it's the noncombat roles that will cause real issues if left unfilled. If you go without combat roles you'll be bad at combat but that's pretty simple to compensate for: run with a larger or higher level party than the module is written for. If you're missing a noncombat role, maybe a role or part of a role won't be important in the adventure, but if it is you can have problems that aren't as simple to GM around.

The key noncombat roles are
and the optional roles are

Most of these roles are not atomic. It may be clumsy, but you can, for example, split face into the talker (diplomacy/bluff) and the listener (sense motive).

The Face role handles interaction. In descending order of importance they are diplomacy, sense motive, bluff, and intimidate.

The Healer fixes things. His job is to be able to pull out neutralize poison, every spell with remove or restore in the name, and use a wand of cure light wounds or infernal healing without chance of failure. Spells with caster level checks (eg. remove disease) need to be known not on wands or scrolls. That makes it pretty much a job for a cleric.

Trapspringer finds and disables or safely triggers traps. Perception is important and either disable device or enough durability to laugh at trap damage. Instakill traps have gone out of style, but if you tank every trap you'll trigger every alarm. (though alarm is not a trap so RAW so will the most skilled trap disabler)

Sage knows the stuff you need to know to interpret clues. You can metagame monster knowledge if no one has the skill points for it, but it's a lot harder to metagame clues. Religion, Arcana, Local, Engineering, History, Nobility, and Geography are most likely to be plot critical. Professions can also be plot critical skills. In Skull and Shackles it's Sailor and

Scout lets you know what to prepare for. He can either use divination magic or stealth. Perception and special vision types are important and bluff is handy. Mobility is also handy. Unfortunately unless done via divination this involves splitting the party unless everyone is sneaky.

The teleporter handles long distance travel. This can't be done at low level and its later availability is one of the more common complaints about high level play so it's often for the best if this role goes unfilled.

Herald wrote:
DominusMegadeus wrote:
Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:
Kthulhu wrote:
Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:
Opuk0 wrote:

Limit full casters to level 6 spells and put out this feat tree

Spell Breakthrough
Can now cast and learn 7th level spells

Improved SB
8th level

Greater SB
9th level

Seems like an unnecessary feat tax. What full caster isn't going to take these feats?

Edit: You may as well just give full casters three less feats.

Making it balanced with martial feats."
I dont see how taking away three feats balances anything, but to each their own.
"If my preffered class is worthless, I'll make all the classes worthless! That'll solve my problems."
Yea , don't see how nerfing spellcasters will be a popular option, but to each their own.

That's not how you nerf casters. The set of problem spells and the set of spells over sixth level are not the same set and while they do intersect neither is a subset of the other. Also, if you allow access to them at all they're still there breaking the game. Taking away feats fixes nothing and really only serves to screw over the sorcerer and oracle who don't get new slot levels at the same level they get feats.

Kthulhu wrote:
Nah, mine is more fun, since you get to see overly entitled wizard players frothing at the mouth and rage-quitting.

Followed by the fighters rage quitting because now no one is casting protection on evil to protect them from dominate person because the cleric thinks divine favor is more important.

Dr.FelixUrr wrote:

I should have put this in the OG post, but here's another combo I've wanted to try out:

Produce Flame + Extend Spell (Metamagic): A nice damage spell for low levels.

Anyone else have feats they like for Druids that aren't the usual summoning feats (eg. Augment Summoning)?

Metamagic. You have good carriers for dazing spell. Lingering spell turns blasts into short duration control. Persistent spell is usually an increase in effectiveness. Heighten might be chosen as a prerequisite for preferred spell. Elemental Spell is pretty limited, but if you wind up preferring and perfecting an elemental damage spell other than flame strike you might want it to get around energy resistance.

Preferred spell and Spell Perfection are also good if you wind up with a default spell choice.

Also, spell focus and greater. A dazing spell build will probably want evocation. Otherwise conjuration and transmutation have potential. Spell Penetration and greater are other good feats.

Improved Initiative is always nice, though you'll eventually be stacking size modifiers to dex from wildshape either as a diminutive animal or a huge air elemental. (The latter should be able to cast spells without natural spell as long as you pick up your component pouch after shaping for the day and whirlwind form counts as stormy weather for boosting call lightning).

Lemmy wrote:
Aelryinth wrote:

Lemmy, you know the same way I do that the same reason paladins, rangers and barbs will take combat feats is because their class features provide for their defenses. Between Superstition, Cha to Saves, evasion, and spellcasting, those classes need to devote very few feats to defense or mobility.

Rangers get a very handy spell list for both defense and combat. Paladins can get a better one.

Rage Powers are at least twice as powerful as combat feats are, because they scale.

And I'm not saying people won't take combat feats. It's more along the lines of, they don't have to spend their combat feats on defenses and mobility, because their class resources provide for those. And in addition, their class resources provide for a great deal of offensive power, so they are not dependent on Combat feats for their versatility or edge in combat.

The fighter is, he NEEDS the feats since they are the majority of his class features, but he also needs the other stuff which other classes get, and he does not.


One more time: I'm not disagreeing with you!

What I'm saying is this: Getting bonus Combat feats is pretty darn close to just getting bonus feats (for a martial class, that is).

Back to my past analogy... The Fighter is getting 500 bucks + health care... Which helps them save money to buy stuff they like. That's a fact. It's just not enough to make them a good class.

Other classes are still better because even though they don't get free health care, they are earn 500 bucks + a bunch of diamonds that are worth far more than the price of the best health care plan ever!

This means Fighters are not as effective as other classes, but it still doesn't change the fact that getting free health care is basically the same as getting the money to pay for health care, since most characters will invest in health care anyway.

Not true. Paladins, for instance, do not need health care, either in or out of the metaphor. The lay on hands augmenting build works just fine on just power attack. There are cleric and druid builds that don't take any combat feats at all. Extra combat feats let you pull off archery and are otherwise kind of meh. That's not to say there aren't enough combat feats worth having to fill a fighter build if they weren't taxed for iron will &co, but for the most part they're stuff you wouldn't miss if you had real class features instead.

This is why there is still no substitute for a real Cleric. Tell the witch player that if his "healer" can't do her job she can retire and he can play a cleric.

Please. Where did he ever say solid adamantine cube? No one would make a collosal adamantine cube solid. That's ridiculously wasteful. You weld maybe a quarter inch of adamantine onto an iron cube.

That's about 194400 cubic inches of adamantine at 0.3 lbs/cubic inch that's a mere 17.5 million gp. A mere twenty level 20 adventurers could afford that and have more than a hundred thousand gp to spare. The iron can be provided by wall of iron because no crafting needs to be performed on them. Just stack them on your base adamantine plate until you have 19' 11 1/2" of the stuff and then weld the side and top pieces of adamantine on. Or you can pull it off even quicker with wall of stone at the expense of density.

Quark Blast wrote:
Atarlost wrote:
<snip>Beren and Luthien had possibly just one magic item between them and Luthien was so epically powerful she could put an entire fortress to sleep. That's thousands of hit dice over a range of probably over a mile most of them through solid rock.<snip>

Precisely my point!

In D&D terms Luthien could sing Morgoth <cough>Orcus<cough> to sleep in his own fortress and both Beren and Luthien could just set Balrogs <cough>Balors<cough> on ignore as they gallivant around the continent.

Very high magic indeed.

And yet it's still low magic by PF standards. There are far fewer magic items; no other planes (and therefore no outsiders except the Ainur) except something that can, if you're extremely generous, call the shadow plane; an entire very large school of magic completely missing apart from the healing subschool; and no divine magic.

Quark Blast wrote:
Arikiel wrote:

Why low magic?

Lord of the Rings, the Conan series, Game of Thrones, etc.
Basically more fantasy novels then I could ever hope to list here.

LotR and Conan were both high magic settings with actual magic users being extremely rare.

GoT seems... either more so or magic is simply the supernatural. Not familiar enough with GoT canon to say for certain.

Compared to Golarion LotR was very low magic. The fellowship averaged a fraction over two magic items per person. The Erebor expedition had six spread across fifteen members if you count Gandalf's bonded object. Beren and Luthien had possibly just one magic item between them and Luthien was so epically powerful she could put an entire fortress to sleep. That's thousands of hit dice over a range of probably over a mile most of them through solid rock.

On the other hand by around sixth level the big six are in place for Pathfinder martials and 4-5 of them for pure casters (possibly substituting mithril or darkwood buckler for armor).

You're right that Middle Earth is a relatively high magic setting, but even it has at most a third the magic items expected for adventurers in default Pathfinder.

Even Harry Potter, which has magic common to the point of banality has almost no adventurer worthy magic items that aren't bags of holding, handy haversacks, or brooms of flying. Hundreds of wizards and there's a grand total of one headband of vast intellect in the British Isles -- implied to be the only one on Earth -- and it's lost. There are apparently a moderate number of cloaks of invisibility and beyond that pretty much nothing.

Robert Asprin's MYTH series is a bit closer, but even so most people aren't lugging large numbers of magic items around. Even people who -ing live at the Bazaar of Deva and are functionally professional adventurers.

Even the highest magic non-D&D settings don't have anything like Golarion.

Kthulhu wrote:

Spell Penetration: Evocation - Spell Penetration for Evocation spells of levels 0-3

Improved Spell Penetration: Evocation - Spell Penetration for Evocation spells of levels 4-6
Greater Improved Spell Penetration: Evocation - - Spell Penetration for Evocation spells of levels 7-9

Yeah, start treating spellcaster feats like they do martial feats...lots of feat taxes, long feat chains, and overly-specialized.


Fighter Patch: (combat feat)
prerequisite: fighter level 6
You receive the benefits of all feats with improved or greater in their name that you qualify for.

Tacticslion wrote:

Question, though: why? What is gained by going there, if "there" is not what those who okay them want them to be?

This is not rhetorical or dismissive. I am honestly asking: what is to be gained by forcing the game dynamic to remain unchanged?

Published APs go there. If most games don't it means people are abandoning APs because the game stops working, leaving many of them with no satisfactory conclusion.

High level is also where the monsters people want to fight are and where most of the interesting martial stuff is hidden and simply because martials can't have anything unrealistic but the dev team still gets embarrassed if there are no martial feats with prerequisites above 8 BAB or martial class abilities after level 6 or 8.

The problem starts with the invisible flying wizard at level 5. That's an encounter that's basically impossible without magic. A martial can use a bow, but only after a friend has glitterdusted or faerie fired the enemy and if he's not an archer he probably doesn't have a magic bow and has to chew through protection from arrows before doing any damage unless a friend casts magic weapon or he has an oil. Things only get worse from there. Where they reach unacceptable varies with who you ask.

Nonscaling spells are enough to keep me from touching 5e. The fighter doesn't have to ration his effective attacks and then attack like he's a level or five lower. There's no point in having multiple levels of spell slots at all if only the highest are useful.

The fundamental problem with the fighter and rogue is that they're designed by people who overvalue all day capabilities. Having 14400 rounds per day of weapon training sounds good until you recognize that you only need it for 20 rounds per day and the barbarian probably has that much rage by level 8.

The monk has the opposite problem. Ki is too small a pool for how long its effects last and how potent they are. They're left with their residual capability pretty much all the time and, like a non-raging barbarian, it's not enough in most combats.

With Paizo finally publishing an archetype that trades all the mounted combat stuff out for decent returns without gutting the rest of his abilities, the cavalier has no real problem anymore except those universal to mundanes. (eg. decent will saves being forbidden to all mundane classes except the aristocrat and expert)

Flawed wrote:

1 level dip of sohei monk with bandit for always act in surprise rounds with a swift, move, and standard action.

You should also take hp the first 4 levels over 4 skills. You already have 10 a level.

Sohei makes for another -1 you can't afford whenever you can't flurry unless you take levels in multiples of 4. Flurry is also only going to give you one attack unless you go to sohei 6. You also can only flurry with monk weapons unless you go to sohei 6.

Sohei is really a much better class and you're probably better off with a 4 level bandit dip on sohei. And taking sohei to 6 if not 8 before the bandit levels.

Ed Reppert wrote:
Orfamay Quest wrote:
Meh. That's what coffee is for.
Coffee is native to Earth. I doubt it even grows on Golarion. :-)

Humans, cats, wolves, horses, tigers, octopi, and ponies are native to Earth but they also exist on Golarion.

If your theme is water the tempest or storm druid archetypes are worth looking at.

Mysterious Stranger wrote:
Atarlost wrote:

The other problem with mixing paladin and rogue is the honor code. Lying and cheating are explicitly prohibited and the "and so forth" is damning. Stealth is deception. Ambushes are deception. Feinting is deception. Stabbing someone in the back while they're distracted by your ally is cheating. Pretty much everything that a rogue is good at is arguably forbidden to paladins.

If your GM is going to run the code RAW do not play a paladin unless you're going to run a straight forward meathead. Sorcerer or bard can pull that off but rogue cannot. (Meathead here meaning as imaginative as a hamsteak but not necessarily stupid. Carrot Ironfounderson is a good example.)

The paladin’s code requires the paladin to act with honor and gives some examples. Stealth and deception are part of tactic. The Art of War has entire sections on the proper use of deception. Nowhere does the paladin’s code say they are not able to use tactics. Not all paladins are knights in shining armor. True many are, but that is not the only path for a paladin to follow.

Unless you're secretly the OP's GM your opinion is worthless. RAW the Paladin must act honorably. The chivalric honor code is more concerned with making sure the sorts of things uppity peasants and women might do to hurt the noble knights are dishonorable than with allowing knights freedom of action. War is the sport of kings and it just wouldn't be seemly to cheat.

Just as Sun Tzu, being an intelligent soldier, gave zero f!++s for the chivalric ideal; the chivalric ideal, being mostly the product of romantic poets who couldn't tell you which end to hold a sword by, gives zero f%#*s for Sun Tzu. But all those legions of grognards who shout down every attempt to get a non-LG paladin variant on the excuse of literary tradition are proof that it's the dumbest most romanticized interpretation of the paladin that reigns at many tables.

You're making a full attack centered melee character in light armor with no shield and no arcane defenses. Oh, and a weak fortitude save for all those poisonous monsters and energy draining undead to exploit.

I have my doubts about any pure classed rogue, though at sufficiently high level a spring attacking scout/thug focused on debuffing could accomplish something without having to end his turn next to an enemy before accomplishing anything.

I'd second Diva Bard. You're one level away from casting in mithril plate. Just don't cast any spells with somatic components in time sensitive circumstances for a level. You'd be forgoing the DR 3/-- from Adamantine plate until level 11, but you get miss chance illusions to make up for it.

There aren't any generally good nonsomatic first level spells, but Allegro, Bladed Dash, and Blur are decent nonsomatic second level spells. Allegro and possibly Blur would be trade out later choices (allegro is obsolete with haste and mirror image is better than blur once you can cast somatic spells without failure) but Bladed Dash you can happily take and use in heavy armor and not regret having in the future.

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Marroar Gellantara wrote:
RDM42 wrote:
Aelryinth wrote:

IN practical terms, try to improve the fighter's saves with his bonus class feats, and you cannot do it. Period.

That seems pretty practically bad to me.

Except due to having the bonus class feats, you don't need to use his general feats for that purpose and are free to use the general ones. Again.
Now name 11 combat feats that you would actually want and are a meaningful impact at the level you receive them.

Point Blank Shot

Precise Shot
Rapid Shot
Deadly Aim
Weapon Focus (longbow)
Weapon Specialization (longbow)
Greater Weapon Focus (longbow)
Improved Precise Shot
Greater Weapon Specialization (longbow)
Clustered Shots
Point Blank Master
Snap Shot
Improved Snap Shot
Combat Reflexes

That's fifteen

Power Attack
Improved Shield Bash
Two Weapon Fighting
Weapon Focus (kukri)
Weapon Specialization (kukri)
Weapon Focus (heavy shield)
Weapon Specialization (heavy shield)
Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Double Slice
Two Weapon Rend
Greater Weapon Focus (kukri)
Greater Weapon Focus (heavy shield)
Greater Two Weapon Fighting
Greater Weapon Specialization (kukri)
Greater Weapon Specialization (heavy shield)
Shield Slam
Shield Mastery
Bashing Finish
Critical Focus (kukri)

That's nineteen

Power Attack
Weapon Focus (falchion)
Furious Focus
Weapon Specialization (falchion)
Blind Fight
Step Up
Step Up and Strike
Critical Focus (falchion)
Barroom Brawler
Dazing Assault
Sickening Critical
Improved Blind Fight
Stunning Critical
Critical Mastery
Greater Blind Fight

That's sixteen. I can come up with sixteen combat feats I'd like for the least feat taxing style without even picking up a combat maneuver.

If I didn't dump int I'd love to have combat expertise, improved dirty trick, greater dirty trick, dirty trick mastery, and quick dirty trick. That would make twenty-three for sword and board or twenty for two handed weapon.

Can we all finally admit that the opportunity cost of iron will is nontrivial please?

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DC 10 perform gives 7sp/week.
Profession would give 5gp/week with a 10 on the check.

DC 15 perform gives 3.85gp/week.
Profession would give 7gp/week with a 15 on the check.

DC 20 perform gives 11.55gp/week.
Profession would give 10gp/week with a 20 on the check.

DC 25 perform gives 24.5gp/week.
Profession would give 12gp/week with a 25 on the check.

DC 30 perform gives 73.5gp/week
Profession would give 15gp/week with a 30 on the check.

Perform stops scaling at DC 30 but profession keeps going. At a check of 147 profession catches up to performance. I'm not sure that's reachable outside of Pun Pun even with epic rules.

At the DC 20 the OP uses, though, profession is almost as good as perform and since it scales linearly it's far better when you're hitting DC 19 or less.

A level 1 elven wizard with 1 point in a profession skill would have a skill of +4 with 10 wis for a take 10 check of 14 giving 7gp/week. A level 1 elven wizard with max random starting age has 50 years of work. Working 50 weeks a year (I think profession assumes taking one day a week off) his income would be 17500gp. Take off 1200 a year for all 60 years since adulthood and our elven wizard has 10300 gp as his first level nest egg, putting him just 200gp shy of 5th level WBL.

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Zhayne wrote:
FuelDrop wrote:

3) Steal underpants.
I didn't realize they'd created a Panty Raider rogue archetype.

They didn't. That would give rogues a niche. It's a gnome alternate race trait.

The other problem with mixing paladin and rogue is the honor code. Lying and cheating are explicitly prohibited and the "and so forth" is damning. Stealth is deception. Ambushes are deception. Feinting is deception. Stabbing someone in the back while they're distracted by your ally is cheating. Pretty much everything that a rogue is good at is arguably forbidden to paladins.

If your GM is going to run the code RAW do not play a paladin unless you're going to run a straight forward meathead. Sorcerer or bard can pull that off but rogue cannot. (Meathead here meaning as imaginative as a hamsteak but not necessarily stupid. Carrot Ironfounderson is a good example.)

Cleric isn't for the cure line. It's for the remove and restore spells. Warpriest loses too much casting to get them in a timely manner. Oracle doesn't have enough spells known to get them in a timely manner.

Get 18 strength, 12 dex, 13 wisdom, and put the rest in con except enough int to make you content with your skills. Dump charisma down to 7 -- 5 if oreads are allowed.

You can take heavy armor proficiency at first level since you can't get power attack until third. And then you're pretty much done until you grab quicken spell metamagic at ninth. Furious focus is nice. Weapon focus doesn't hurt. Spell focus conjuration, augment summons, sacred summons, and superior summoning are also options if you're getting by adequately on just power attack and quicken.

You could do Chelish Diva bard (Inner Sea Magic; Diva on PFSRD). They get similar skills and a similar spell list to the inquisitor and get the fastest access to heavy armored casting of any arcane class. Since you have proficiency from the paladin side you can cast in mithril fullplate at level 5, about as early as you'd be able to afford it. Your backstory is then an exercise in getting an actor from Cheliax into a paladin order and having him head out to the worldwound where good and evil are refreshingly unambiguous. It practically writes itself. You probably wouldn't want an Aasimar for this backstory, though.

Alternately, you could keep inquisitor and swap out paladin instead. That would give you more leeway on your actions, though WotR is said to be very paladin friendly anyways.

Inquisitor/Monk could do very well using either Zen Archer or Sohei. You can run the conversion inquisiton and reap all the benefits of being charismatic while dumping it as far as you're allowed. Zen Archers substitute wisdom for dexterity and you're using an uncurved point buy so there's no reason not to go all in on wisdom. Sohei, on the other hand works well with Sacred Huntsmaster to give you a mount that actually has the durability gestalt expects and early access to mounted skirmisher.

Chi_ wrote:

How would you make a Gunslinger / Inq work?

Perhaps I have failed my search few but I cannot find anything other then wis that makes it stackable. I also stink at making a good Inq...


You don't build an inquisitor. From a build standpoint an inquisitor is almost a perfectly generic medium combat BAB class. The limits that make building inquisitors tricky don't effect a full BAB gestalt, though, so you build a gunslinger and trawl for ranged or style independent teamwork feats. Oh, and don't pick a firearm that will take a swift action to reload. Move or free you can spare, but swifts are required to activate judgement and bane.

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the secret fire wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:
my point is, that there is no single point of legal precedent you can offer for your view point.

I'm not sure I understand what you're getting at here. By "legal precedent", do you mean RAW?

it ultimately comes down to people not liking that someone can take a low stat and not play that stat.
Heh...if the stats are completely meaningless to you, don't use them. Just re-name them "Bashing Stat", "Arcane Casting Stat", "Diplomacying Stat", and so on. That ought to clear up whatever lingering cognitive dissonance you might have about the blob of numbers on your sheet representing an actual person.

It would be more honest, but we're stuck with the stupid and misleading terminology Gygax propounded.

INT is not intelligence. Intelligence is the ability to solve problems and construct logical arguments. INT is rote knowledge: The stuff of idiot savants.

WIS is not wisdom. Wisdom is the ability to make wise decisions. WIS is the ability to see and hear clearly, balance accounts, and be favored of a god (unless you're a paladin or oracle because Paizo knows the mental stats are pure hogwash even if they don't want to admit it openly).

CHA is not charisma. In what bizzaro universe do people get more charismatic when they're past their prime and running to fat? In what bizzaro universe, for that matter, are intimidation and diplomacy easy for the same kinds of people? And what does any of that have to do with using magic devices or casting spells?

ElCrabofAnger wrote:
Why should somebody who has spent their whole life mastering martial arts be as good in any situation as somebody who spent all their time kissing up to gods for favors? Why should they be as flexible as someone who took the time to learn how to make physical and metaphysical laws sit down and do as they're told? One person can cast mighty magics to create a new dimension to their liking. Is it really unjust that a mere-sword swinger feels less powerful? They are less powerful.

Because the flattery of men is as the bleating of goats to the gods and almost every literary or mythological magic system outside Vance and Zelazney has its own laws, usually either of balance or Murphy.

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The problem with tiering is that it forces genre shift. I want my games to stay in one genre, not force me to jump from gritty realism to silver age comics to golden age comics. They don't call for the same kinds of characters and aren't always suitable for the same social circles. Slogging through progressively less gritty genres to get to what you actually want to play is stupid and having to stop playing or kludge some low power variant there isn't actual support for is also stupid.

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Spotlight balance is toxic. Spotlight balance means that in a party of 4 with one GM 3/5 of the people at the table are playing Angry Birds at any given time.

kestral287 wrote:

Magus has a few very good ways to boost accuracy-- enhancement bonus on the weapon and the Arcane Accuracy arcana are the two biggest ones. That said, Investigator/Magus is cool.

Bloodrager can bring Pounce via Primalist archetype.

Swash can pair with a few casting classes pretty well, honestly. Full BAB, d10 hit dice. Cha dependent abilities means you don't run into MAD issues with Sorcerers or Oracles. Free bonus damage and some nifty defensive tricks help too. For a battle Oracle I'd take it over anything but the Slayer, and even that's a maybe. For a class that's not already using Cha, screw it and love the Slayer.

Enhancement bonus is capped. The amount of accuracy boost the magus can get drops as his weapon's real enhancement rises. Any boost you are only getting because you're enhancing your weapon less than you would if you were some other class isn't a real credit. Arcane Accuracy, I believe, uses arcane pool per attack. That's not a good deal for ki and it's not a good deal for arcana points that you could be using to refresh spell slots if you had some other accuracy source.

The primalist can't get pounce before level 12, can't take extra rage power, and can't get pounce unless he's willing to give up two of his rage powers including his level 12 rage power. I'm not seeing any reason to go bloodrager if you're going to turn around and ditch the bloodline powers.

The swash lacks something of great importance every charisma based class except the paladin and the aforementioned bloodrager really wants: a good fortitude save.

There are many popular plots that require the absence of long range teleportation. There are no popular plots that require its presence. That tells me that we'd be better off without it at any level.

Investigator is a really big deal for gestalt. Studied Combat is a huge bonus and has no use limit. It combos well with anything full BAB except (non-urban) barbarian, bloodrager, and swashbuckler and will tolerate flat stat arrays pretty well if you get it to level 4. It also looks good with magus, which is otherwise a bit light on accuracy boosters for a medium BAB combatant.

Skald is the new bard for selfish martials. It isn't as good a bonus as inspire courage and your allies probably won't thank you for something that they can't use without turning off their skills and casting, but you can get beast totem on a paladin.

Slayer pretty much replaces ranger. It's just more focused.

Arcanist replaces Sage Sorcerer easily and might conceivably be taken over wizard.

Bloodrager doesn't gestalt well for the same reasons barbarian doesn't, and doesn't bring pounce to the table. It might work okay with druid if you don't want to cast in combat.

Shaman has a weak spell list, but can be used anywhere you wished witch was wisdom based and/or could cast in armor.

Swashbuckler is just bad. Use to get a good reflex save on a dervish dancing cleric or druid and that's about it.

Warpriest is pointless. In gestalt you're pretty much always going to be better off using cleric or fighter with whatever you were going to use warpriest.

Brawler might go well with druid, but it fails to bring the saves of a monk and doesn't use weapons.

Hunter is just bad. Pets don't do well in gestalt. Use druid instead. With a domain.

Kryzbyn wrote:
Well now there are Warpriests and Inquisitors. Holy warrior away.

Inquisitors are thematically non-martial. Warpriests are a waste of space failure of class design. I still don't see anyone that can have the skill of a warrior all day every day and have divine support without being of one of two specific alignments.

To do a healer's job the warpriest would need early access to the level>2 non-cure healing spells (ie. heal, breath of life, neutralize potion, and anything with remove or restore in the name) The paladin gives some early access to the lower level stuff, but it doesn't help with the higher. Inquisitor doesn't help at all.

To do a martial's job the warpriest needs full BAB, a non-resource self buff equivalent to full BAB, or 3.5 persistent spell and divine metamagic.

As a misguided paean to the fifteen minute workday it's far too effective as is.

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Builds are critical. If you don't have a build you find yourself locked out of later options by poor early choices.

The feats you wasted on weapon proficiency and focus on a wizard may mean you can't pick up spell perfection at level 15 and your campaign is going to end at 16.

The poor stat distribution on your fighter may mean you're going to be dominated by every devil you come across. Being impulsive may have been fun at low levels, but now you're a dagger at your party's throat.

Your vacillation between two weapon fighting and archery means that you don't have the feats to keep up with either.

Multiclassing without a plan usually leaves your character bad at two things instead of good at one.

If you're not prepared to have your character's entire lifetime advancement planned out before your first non-character-creation game session (or second level in PFS which gives a free full rebuild there) then D&D 3.x/PF is not the system for you.

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Diego Rossi wrote:
A magus don't fill these roles too (unless he spend options to get the wizard spells he lacks).

Where in all of my posting history have I ever given the impression that I don't also consider the magus a failure of class design?

Devil's Advocate wrote:
When I read the name of this thread, I was hoping Magic: The Actual Problems would be a spin-off version of Magic: The Gathering that uses nothing but reprints of cards that are known to be broken.

That would be ugly. They'd have to make moxes and the lotus common because there would be no lands, but the 4 like non-land cards rule would still make decks catastrophically luck dependent.

It doesn't matter how "strong" a warpriest can be. They don't actually fill any party roles.

They obviously can't fill the skill, arcane utility, or battlefield control roles.

They don't have fast enough spell access to fill the healer role.

They don't have the staying power to fill the martial role.

When your GM decides to take you through a realistically scaled dungeon in which walk times cut into even your 10 min/level buffs and wandering monsters prevent you from sleeping in the dungeon* the paladin and barbarian can keep going as long as the monsters occasionally drop consumables because they don't need to smite or rage to handle chronic encounters. The warpriest is bleeding spell slots to keep up with the non-smiting paladin and non-raging barbarian. Who really cares if he can nova? They can nova too and they don't have to choose between being dead weight in the attrition encounters or being dead weight in the afternoon.

* you know, a classic dungeon crawl.

The Warpriest cannot fill any non-martial role satisfactorily and cannot fill the martial role full time. It doesn't matter how good you are at novaing, if you can't properly fill a party role you have no business in a reasonably sized party.

Clerics can, with the right archetype and a one level dip, perform the martial role nearly as well and can be satisfactory healers.

Inquisitors can perform the martial role nearly as well and be the #3 skill class behind bard and investigator.

Paladins can perform the healing role almost satisfactorily (mercies cover most of the stuff they can't remove and they can use restoration wands, but no remove blindness/deafness at a reasonable level) and the martial role full time. Antipaladins are lousy healers, but still full time martials.

The Warprieist is a waste of page space, crowding an already crowded design space and making the fifteen minute adventuring day even more mandatory for parties that contain them.

Orfamay Quest wrote:
Kain Darkwind wrote:

Negative levels is a great example of the asymmetrical nature of magic vs martial combat.

A creature that has been reduced in hit points, but not brought below 0 fights exactly as fiercely (barring self preservation instinct) as one at full hit points.

Agreed, but I think that that's actually a good thing against the background of the rest of the rules. Otherwise the barbarian, who is taking hit point damage on a fairly regular basis, would be fighting at 2/3 of his already low-level of effectiveness all the time, while the wizard, who goes out of his way to treasure both of his hit points, will still be slinging spells.

Yes, the lack of HP damage death spirals is a good thing.

The presence of ability damage/drain and negative energy death spirals is a bad thing for all the same reasons.

If you really value the fun of not having death spirals you should remove all self-stacking debuffs and apply the buff stacking limitations to debuffs.

You don't need Cosmopolitan, but need 3 int before taking Nature Soul which means 4 HD. That pushes Animal Ally to druid equivalent 8 and boon companion to druid equivalent 10.

Gish usually refers to an arcane caster of some sort.

I'm actually inclined to suggest witch/investigator. You'll start slow, but come level 4 you'll be able to add half your level to attack and damage against a target for only an action cost. You'll also have the option of picking up mutagen for hard targets and the strength patron has the big three clerical self buffs. You can get the illusion defenses other than mirror image and vanish from the alchemist list along with ablative barrier and mage armor is on the witch list and false life and greater are on both. Mutagen can give natural armor (not the same type as the enhancement to natural armor barkskin or AoNA give so it stacks) and can use the sapping offense talent to cast freely if he can contrive a way to attack out of turn or as less than a standard action (eg. as an AoO or the free touch attack after quickening a touch spell). And, of course, there are the hexes, which work in armor if you're running a still spell build. Unfortunately I can't find any worthwhile first level non-somatic witch spells to not need stilling.

Wizard/investigator also works, though you wouldn't get the same combat endurance hex and studied target combine into.

Another option is to run magus 6 fighter x alongside wizard or arcanist. That lets you pick up the arcana to spell combat non-magus spells for 2 BAB. You can still every non-cantrip with a somatic component and use all your first level wizard slots on true strike.

Since masterwork tool is deliberately undefined for most skills you can use a whetstone that you paid too much for to give yourself a +2 on intimidate checks.

Pan wrote:
Orfamay Quest wrote:
Pan wrote:

Folks also love Game of Thrones where almost no character has plot armor. The unknown outcomes of a robust and consistent world are what makes the story/show so exciting.

I don't think I suggested otherwise. People also enjoy tragedies where you know it will all end unsatisfyingly and you get a good cry. Sometimes those people are even the same people.

I'd caution you, though,.... if you've been hired to write a screenplay for a new Bond film and you give the producers Game of Thrones instead, there's a good chance they'll ask for their advance back.

Why cant there be both Game of Thrones and James Bond. Why must there be onetruewayism going on here?

Because they're different franchises.

If all the Game of Thrones people would go play Call of Cthulhu and leave D&D for the James Bond set we wouldn't need to have these arguments.

LibraryRPGamer wrote:

Hi Everyone,

I am playing a human rogue in a Oregon Trail-inspired campaign. We just hit level 2 and we do not have a healer. Since the rest of the party are all "dumb fighter" types, the task of healing has fallen onto me.

I usually don't play healers or rogues, so I could really use some advice on how to combine the two.

** spoiler omitted **

My gut tells me to go lore or heavens oracle for the CLW and/or channel. Are there any other/better options?

Thanks for the help!

It is not an Oregon Trail themed campaign unless people are dieing of dysentery left and right. It is therefore most appropriate to have no healer at all.

GreyWolfLord wrote:

Here are a few ways to nerf spells...

Double everyone's saves. Seriously...double them. That won't even come close to solving the problem, but it will make them maybe stand a chance to save once in a while at higher levels.

Return to the...if the spellcaster gets hit before casting the spell...they lose the spell and it never gets cast.

Of course, your spellcasters may feel you sort of over did the nerfing...but's one way to nerf them and their spells.

The most game breaking spells aren't cast in combat.

Dragon Style is good for pounce builds since they really need to be charging.

Goblin Cleaver and Orc Hewer (dwarf) are good for big hit druids to cleave without adjacency. They're relative to your size so you don't much need the third in the chain when you can turn huge.

Natural Speech is good for animal form druids, especially if you want to use barding.

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