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5,686 posts (5,687 including aliases). No reviews. No lists. No wishlists. 1 alias.


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Cockatrice is another good cavalier order. At level 2 they get standard action dazzling display without requiring a specific weapon in hand. Having a move action to get into position to catch more enemies in your display makes the ability a lot better.

Definitely cleric of those two. Reduced cleric casting prevents you from filling the role the cleric list is designed for.

Inquisitor has some utility that isn't tied to keeping up with the bestiary harmful effect schedule and gives a couple more skills, which are nice. Their nova is a lot better as well. Cleric is arguably better because it's a full caster, but inquisitor does bring something useful to the table.

I'd go cleric. Every party should either have a cleric, a witch with the healing patron who picks up condition removal spells religiously, or a combination of other divine casters who can provide all condition removal. (For example druids are very inadequate healers, but they do have remove disease on schedule which is the one hole a shaman can't fill.) If you're a cleric you'll know that someone has all the removes and restores as early as possible so if you're considering cleric as an option you should generally take it unless you know there's already another cleric in your group.


There is no such thing as magic. You're a mental patient suffering from delusions. If you settle down and take your medication the world will start to make sense again and you can have a nice walk on the grounds. How does that sound?

Implausible but not technically impossible lie (-10 penalty). +20 to bluff checks to lie. Is the BBEG specced for sense motive? Because I'm a bard with skill focus comedy and prodigy comedy and oratory.

Even if he doesn't choose to cooperate he no longer believes he can cast spells if he fails the opposed check.

Bluff is basically the one skill that can be as good as magic and glibness massively boosts it.

Charon's Little Helper wrote:
The only 'broken' way to jack up stats is the djinn wishing trick, but I know of games where that is considered par for the course. (APs do not.)

Djinn wishing just breaks up the inherent bonus gain so you don't get it all ridiculously backloaded after level 17. If inherent bonuses are okay at all Djinn wishing is a partial fix for their uneven distribution rather than a problem. Assuming the djinn charges what a wish is worth (ie. the value of the expensive material component a wizard or sorcerer would need to use). If they're getting them for free that's an entirely different problem.

Lemmy wrote:
Atarlost wrote:

The game needs a class that doesn't represent anything. The alternative is a cancerous proliferation of classes to try to represent everything.

If I want to play someone who isn't defined by his temper, his racism, his horse, his gun, or the alignment system I can be a fighter or a rogue derivative, a 6 level caster, or a swashbuckler that is even worse than the fighter.

Some class needs to be the generic multi-purpose modular fighting man.

Rangers are only racist if that's how you want to justify their class feature. To me it's makes much more sense that the Ranger simply studies the behavior, weaknesses and vulnerabilities of a certain type of prey... As any good hunter would do.

And Fighter are just as defined by their weapon as any Gunslinger.

When that prey is people, as it almost always is, they're racists.

And there's a difference between a guy with a sword that is like thousands of other swords, who can even pick up another completely different sword and still be okay and a guy whose entire concept revolves around being from Alkenstar and having an ultra-rare and special gadget that other people can't fathom.

Scavion wrote:
Atarlost wrote:
Ashiel wrote:
the Fighter doesn't represent anything.

The game needs a class that doesn't represent anything. The alternative is a cancerous proliferation of classes to try to represent everything.

If I want to play someone who isn't defined by his temper, his racism, his horse, his gun, or the alignment system I can be a fighter or a rogue derivative, a 6 level caster, or a swashbuckler that is even worse than the fighter.

Some class needs to be the generic multi-purpose modular fighting man.

Yeah but the generic multi-purpose modular fighting man is bad at being a generic multi-purpose modular fighting man.

If he was actually decentgood(Anyone can be decent at anything, you choose classes to be good at a particular thing) at fulfilling all your generic multi-purpose modular fighting man needs I don't think it'd be as annoying of an issue as it is.

There are, indeed, issues. But being generic is a virtue not a vice and in any game that intends to represent any setting without a degree of universal conformity incompatible with the traditional adventuring party it's a necessity.

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Ashiel wrote:
the Fighter doesn't represent anything.

The game needs a class that doesn't represent anything. The alternative is a cancerous proliferation of classes to try to represent everything.

If I want to play someone who isn't defined by his temper, his racism, his horse, his gun, or the alignment system I can be a fighter or a rogue derivative, a 6 level caster, or a swashbuckler that is even worse than the fighter.

Some class needs to be the generic multi-purpose modular fighting man.

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Lemmy wrote:
Atarlost wrote:
Strong, can do anything, but can't do everything in the same character. That sounds like tier 2 to me.
They can do everything in the same character... Just not in the same day. All Cleric builds still have access to all their spells.

The cleric can't do everything with spells without having the stats to back them up and can't have the stats for both dealing damage and forcing saves at a useful level at the same time because the combat buffs are no longer good enough to overcome poor combat stats. They just don't have the "hurting people" spells to fill the hammer role without strength (or dex and dex to damage) and lack spells to make hurting people irrelevant. Instead they have a list full of spells that fill the same handful of roles in slightly different ways.

zainale wrote:
all that matters is that i can heal as a druid.

Your sole qualification to be a healer is that you can activate a wand of cure light wounds. You're missing too many condition removers for the real healer role and have delayed access on all cures other than light as well as heal.

So, no, you really can't heal as a druid.

ChaosTicket wrote:
Im really trying hard to find a Domain that is practical. I dont find much point in a specific slot spells that cannot be altered. Cleric in particular has alot of domains that give wizard spells which can only be used in those single domain slots per turn.

You can get domain slots back with Pearls of Power. That's not a good deal for something like fireball, but druids have other blasts anyways. For something you might cast once per fight it's an option if it isn't too high level. That would be something like Fly from the Feather domain. And you get an animal companion you can boost to full with Boon Companion because it's a subdomain of Animal. Sure, you can just turn into a bird to fly, but then you have to choose between having a top notch combat form and being able to fight airborne opponents. A feather domain druid can be hovercat. Pick up the Improved Spell Sharing teamwork feat and grab an extend metamagic rod to make up for the duration loss and when you get Overland Flight your pet can be hovercat while you're hoverdinosaur and save the third domain slot to use when the barbarian feels left out and use the third level pearls to GMF more of your or your companion's teeth and claws or pass them on to the ranger for instant enemy.

Remember, you don't need a pearl in hand to cast the spell, you use it between combats.

Storm Druid doesnt seem like a terrible Archetype. It cant use an animal companion, but being able to replace prepared spells with more uses of domain spells might be nice IF I can find spells that arent just Druid spells. That kind of makes the Storm Druid is weaker Theologian. Theologian can use Wizard spells like Fireball.

You also get the ability to spam generally useful domain spells while preparing more situational spells.

This is potentially good for obscuring mist since you can see through it and your enemies can't. Same for fog cloud if you take weather or one of its subdomains. The only maybe useful off-list spell I can find available to any storm druid domain options is Solid Fog from the cloud domain.

KenderKin wrote:
There should only be a very few instances of cure spells being used in combat. Out of combat burning 10 charges from a wand is better than using either casters higher level spell slot.

There are HP healing spells worth using on combat, but they're not cures. There's Heal (which druids get a level later than clerics), and Breath of Life (which druids don't get at all).

So when HP healing in combat becomes worthwhile for clerics it still isn't for druids. And when druids do get Heal they're spending seventh level slots instead of sixth. That's not good.

Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Having 1/2 BAB and only maybe a +5 Dexterity, tops, leaves you with only +15 to hit, not factoring in other penalties (and very few bonuses to implement as well without sacrificing other options).

Huh? Boosting attack rolls isn't that hard.

Heroism: bonus on attack rolls (no weapon qualifier) for two and a half hours at level 15 from a second level slot
Inspire Courage (find a friend, take leadership, or summon a Lillend Azata before opening the door): bonus on attack and weapon damage rolls (the weapon qualifier is definitely only on the damage rolls)
Reduce Person: +2 size bonus to dexterity and a +1 size bonus to attack rolls for a net +2 for fifteen minutes from a first level slot.

That's +2 easy all dungeon, +4 if you're feeling twitchy, +6 with warning, +5 with a level 15 friend or level 13 cohort, or +7 with a friend or cohort if you're feeling twitchy.

Another thing you can do if you're worried is use the quicken on Twilight Haze instead. Since it's your illusion you can see through it fine, but your enemy probably can't see you (no save or SR!) which will usually deny them their dexterity bonus. Less max damage than quickening a second blast, but you probably won't be missing since every common typed AC bonus except deflection is gone and your resource expenditure is a lot lower.

TOZ wrote:

Why Tier 1s are 1s.

Why Tier 3s are 3s.

Exactly. The cleric is tier 1 because...clicks on the spoiler

A litany of stuff that didn't make the transition to Pathfinder. Ah.

In Pathfinder, clerics can no longer stack enough day long self buffs to ignore their stat distribution so the same cleric cannot be both a front line damage dealer and have the save DCs to be an offensive caster.

Strong, can do anything, but can't do everything in the same character. That sounds like tier 2 to me.

You've linked this in another thread, which indicates it's still something you're working on.

That being the case I'd like to point out a flaw in your methodology. Let's look at Improved Grapple as an example. You've rated it as a 3, but it's real cost is not 3 because it has a prerequisite you probably don't actually want. No one takes improved unarmed strike unless they have monk scaling or want a style feat. Actually using it is very rare even when you do have it unless you also have scaling unarmed dice.

If improved grapple is actually worth 3 it should be discounted by its prerequisite. If it's actually worth 4 prerequisite based discounting should be noted on the spreadsheet.

SmiloDan wrote:
I think the human oracle favored class bonus can be helpful in learning condition removal spells.

Not really. You can't use it until you're already three levels behind schedule.

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In principle there are three major ways to gestalt.

You can gestalt for strength. This usually only applies to martials because casters don't stack well. Taking something with a good martial extra like the ninja or investigator and comboing with a strong martial like the paladin or barbarian or taking something with a big damage boost like cavalier and crossing it with druid are typical examples.

You can gestalt for versatility. If you've got two players gestalting to do the job of four characters without running more than one character each this is what you get. You want to see a pair of carefully synergizing characters, or possibly three for this.

You can gestalt around weakness. In this you combine two classes so as to minimize the weaknesses. You see a lot of paladins and monks in this style because paladins have great saves and lay on hands while monks have good saves and unarmored AC.

If you're not in a two character party you shouldn't mix full arcane and full divine spellcasting unless you're using druidic wildshape as your durability plan. Divine casters generally don't offer casting boosts that stack with arcane casting boosts.

If your concern is condition removal you need a cleric. If you want to save them cure light wounds wands you want a life oracle.

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Das Bier wrote:

The whole Tier 1 thing started with CoDzilla. Not WoSzilla. a 9 level caster with all the armor and weapons he can want, full access to every spell on a prepared caster list, decent combat ability, great saves...

And 9th level spells are capstone abilities more powerful then anything a fighter gets, and a cleric gets 5 or so, starting at level 17 instead of 20, that they can change EVERY DAY.

And wha, your melees couldn't deal 250 hp dmg/rd at 20? Someone needs to optimize their melees more. Heh!

The CoDzilla you're talking about does not exist in Pathfinder. Divine Power no longer increase BAB and doesn't stack with Divine Favor at all, the unholy trinity of persistent metamagic, divine metamagic, and nightsticks are all gone, and polymorphing has been nerfed dramatically.

No longer can the same cleric or druid be the strongest martial and a top caster without loaded stat dice. Indeed, it's really hard for clerics to be the strongest martial at all.

He's talking about how to enter the PrC I think.

The Magaambyan Initiate is not on Archives of Nethys or nor is anything with a similar name on pfsrd.

The archetype is probably meant to completely supersede the prestige class, though. Paizo decided a few years ago that they hate prestige classes and want them forgotten.

Trade a first level spell for Saving Finale ASAP. A first level slot and an immediate action to let an ally reroll a save is the best deal you'll get. If your GM allows you to McGuiver, Solid Note is another long term first level spell. It's Immovable Rod light. Another possibly interesting spell is Detect Metal. Most dangerous people wear or carry metal. Most traps have metal components. Most hidden treasure is metal. Probably ditch comprehend languages and Hideous Laughter first.

For second level, mirror image is good defense. Blur is an okay defensive buff for your friends and as written allows stealth anywhere because it gives concealment. There really aren't very many good second level spells for the long haul. Heroism might be nice, but it'll overlap with your first third level pick.

At third you take Good Hope. The wizard might cast Haste or the cleric Blessing of Fervor so you don't absolutely have to be the one casting haste, but Good Hope is exclusive to bards and I think Iomedean clerics and is really good unless everyone else in your party is an unchained barbarian. Morale attack and damage bonuses from non-spell sources are rare and morale save bonuses are usually just against fear. You also take Haste if no one else is casting it or Blessing of Fervor. Dispel Magic is good because it works on caster level checks not saves so it will always work the same, but it's bad because the CR system guarantees that enemy casters will always be higher level than you. Glibness is another very strong bard exclusive. The bluff modifier for an impossible lie is -20. Glibness gives +20. A merely far-fetched lie is only -10 and in a world with magic a lot of things are merely far-fetched. Another potentially strong spell is Jester's Jaunt, aka Fighterdoken. Mad Monkeys is yet another third level spell of interest. It's the only swarm spell that understands and obeys commands and it makes combat maneuvers based on your caster level and casting stat, which means it scales the way other summons don't and is therefore potentially worth using. It's essentially a death zone for non-psychic casters other than sorcerers as they lose a spell component pouch or divine focus every round. Most weapon users will also find the risk of being disarmed unacceptable, making this a roving zone of battlefield control. One that, since it understands common, you can direct with free action talking rather than move actions like most other directable spells. Oh, and unlike other summon spells it offers no SR check.

shadowkras wrote:
This is a trope well known for turning into animals and changing their appearance and yet they don't even get beast shape. And somehow they can cast hostile polymorph spells when they can't even turn themselves into a cat?

I believe their intent was to use the patrons for those iconic effects.

Transformation patron has all kinds of shape changing spells.

What lacked, honestly, was more unique spells, specially at higher levels.

The SRD is also lacking the proper link to all spells granted by witch patrons or oracle mysteries, only domains got that treatment.
Shapechange,for instance, is on Agility 9, Transformation 9 and Strength 9.

The animal and terrain domains don't get links either.

Ssalarn wrote:
Atarlost wrote:
Alceste008 wrote:
Having played both, animal focus is much, much better than wildshape for character that goes into combat. Wildshape + Natural spell is amazing for casters thou.
So, which teamwork feat lets you get pounce with three primary natural attacks at level 6 or five primary natural attacks at level 8?
Well, this build which I threw together in about 5 minutes right after the class came out doesn't get pounce, but it is designed to use teamwork feats to generate multiple attacks at the character's full attack bonus using primarily standard actions, sooo... That's something.

Not buying it. It relies almost entirely on retaliation. At level 9 you can get two attacks with improved feint partner, but only if you don't move because feinting is itself a move action. You're going to be lucky to get one set of AoOs per encounter before your enemy cancels out of his full attack and goes after someone else. More likely he'll decide you've developed a reputation and skip that or have someone non-melee focus down the animal, leaving you without until you can afford to burn a day in an environment appropriate to the animal you want. A druid is in control of his effectiveness while you beg for whatever scraps the GM deigns to give you.

If the wolf goes down you're completely useless. It has a critically low will save, a questionable reflex, and wizard-like HP (3.6 average HP per character level and fewer HD to multiply by its con mod). No wolf no teamwork feats. If you think using it for scouting is anything but abject stupidity you obviously haven't played it under a GM that isn't throwing softballs. Something like that fails one stealth check against an encounter scaled to four full level PCs and it'll be pushing up daisies in short order along with all your class features that aren't strictly inferior to the worst druid variants.

The druid has no such weak link. If her companion dies she isn't effected. Or she takes a domain and doesn't even have that to lose.

Alceste008 wrote:
Having played both, animal focus is much, much better than wildshape for character that goes into combat. Wildshape + Natural spell is amazing for casters thou.

So, which teamwork feat lets you get pounce with three primary natural attacks at level 6 or five primary natural attacks at level 8?

All condition removal spells should be on all 6 or 9 level divine spell lists at the cleric schedule. And oracles should get them known for free along with or instead of the cures and inflicts.

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Texas_ogre wrote:
I am new to pathfinder and a GM and player> they party of player is a dm'ing are rule mongers. They always have detect magic going do end y thing magic (I,e, traps or item are pointless. I need a to know if there is a fix for this ? They have it running at all times. This has made magic raps pointless. help please

Since the point of traps was to annoy the players this is an improvement. Just stop using traps and if you have a dedicated trapfinder let him rebuild.

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Squiggit wrote:
I have to disagree with the hunter adding nothing. Even its most basic concept, fighting along side your animal ally, is something that doesn't work great in the base game.

It shouldn't. If one person has a pet he's controlling twice as many characters as everyone else. If everyone has a pet suddenly you're dealing with an 8 or 10 character party.

Pet classes, like summoners, have no place in a multiplayer game that isn't entirely based on group combat with ultra-streamlined wargame style mechanics rather than mechanically complex characters and RPG style mechanics. Or real time computer games where player attention is a finite resource.

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The ACG is mostly missed opportunities.

Everyone wanted a melee grit class. What we got is garbage. I don't think anyone disputes that it's garbage and I think everyone agrees on why it's garbage. No more discussion is needed.

Everyone wanted a generalized paladinoid from the fighter/cleric hybrid. Full BAB with 4 level casting and alignment restrictions by deity with no onerous code. What we got is not fit for purpose. It lacks the on schedule healing of a cleric and the staying power of even a fighter, much less a paladin. Instead we get nova or nothing. All hail the fifteen minute workday.

People have been asking for a martial shapechanger basically forever. Instead Paizo combined the ranger with the druid and got something based on one of the worst mechanics in the game. It's at least not a summoner, but companions are generally bad for table flow unless being used as mounts, make martials redundant at low levels when martials are supposed to be useful, and peter out into uselessness as anything but a 2x2 meat wall at high levels because their attack bonus progresses too slowly. The hunter itself also has an attack bonus that progresses too slowly for something that isn't a natural attacker. Paizo should have learned not to give anyone intended to actually fight unaugmented medium BAB from the core rogue.

DM Livgin wrote:
Ya, is it intended to mean an appendage with opposable thumbs, or just a limb capable of some sort of manipulation.

Or is it an unwritten hand, in which case everyone has two no matter their body structure (ignore the contradiction with multi-attack).

Cyrad wrote:
And if you already made up your mind and totally disagree with all of these people, then there's really no point in continuing this discussion. If you truly feel they aren't helping you, then arguing back and giving condescending remarks does not accomplish anything but create unwelcome hostility in this community. Even if you feel they're doing the same to you. You're better off...

People who give others s+~% for trying to find a fix for a side effect of doing the very things that every martial vs caster thread recommends to fix that problem are people the community is probably better off without.

Alex Trebek's Stunt Double wrote:
Anzyr wrote:
Okay, easy there pardner, I'm saying it's pretty clear the "assumption" of the material components in a spell component pouch is that it has the material components for the spells you've actually prepared. Otherwise the pouch would be huge because there are just so many spells with material components, it would be a sack full. That's is clear enough for me.

This is obviously false. The spell component pouch contains the components for all spells you prepared today. And all spells you might possibly prepare tomorrow. And all spells you might possibly prepare the next day and so on. If it worked as you claim wizards would only be able to prepare spells in an apothecary.

GM 1990 wrote:
Pippin fails his dex-check and tosses a rock down the well, but I digress.

That was a WIS check. Thus, "Fool of a Took."

Kyudoka wrote:
Go for a Cleric (Crusader). Take Heavy Armour feat as your bonus feat. Take Extra Channel and tell the party you're only using channels to heal, the rest of your feats are yours and your spells are for buffing.

No reason to eat the diminished spellcasting. You don't have much use for the bonus feats. Channels aren't going to be useful without charisma you can't afford to get selective so skip that. At least one of the squishies needs to die and trade in for another front liner anyways. Your first level feat is heavy armor proficiency because there's nothing else you can do with it. The only other feat you really need is power attack at third.

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The Mortonator wrote:
Atarlost wrote:
The Mortonator wrote:
But... but... we already had the final Fighter thread! D:

How many sequels and spinoffs has Final Fantasy had? Has Square Enix shown any signs that they might stop?

That's what I thought.

That was a joke on a sillily presumptuous thread.

<grammar nazi>You put a comma between adjectives. Eg. "silly, presumptuous thread." Most importantly you should have used the plural because you're talking about two jokes on a silly, presumptuous thread.</grammar nazi>

<spelling nazi>Also, there are only two 'l's and one 'i' in silly.</spelling nazi>

<grammar nazi>You shouldn't start a sentence with a conjunction.</grammar nazi>

<spelling nazi>People do it all the time in informal English.</spelling nazi>

The voices in my head proceed to have a pointless argument about prescriptivism versus descriptivism in linguistics and then get shot by the Russians.

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The Mortonator wrote:
But... but... we already had the final Fighter thread! D:

How many sequels and spinoffs has Final Fantasy had? Has Square Enix shown any signs that they might stop?

That's what I thought.

BobTheCoward wrote:
Do you think designers might like the multi day dungeons design as part of the fantasy rpg aesthetic?

They rarely make sense as multi-day dungeons. They have to be played that way because the rules don't work for long dungeons, but break points and safe retreats are not generally provided and the issue of the denizens reacting is present in almost all dungeons. Only entirely trap and mindless creature inhabited tombs and ruins are reasonable to run as static and a dungeon must be static to be assayed over multiple days.

When there are breakpoints they aren't enclosing single day segments.

Let's take the Emerald Spire cellars. The party should probably be level 2. There's an APL+2 encounter, two APL encounters, an APL+1 encounter, another APL+1 encounter, another APL encounter, an APL+3 encounter, an APL-1 encounter, and an APL+2 encounter. That's nine encounters, five of them CR>APL: more than a day's work for even a moderately optimized party, especially at that point when there are no lower level spell slots and non-renewable resource pools are only 6+stat or 3+stat. You take Kyra, Lem, Ezren, and Valeros in there and they're going to retreat with their tails between their legs halfway through and the level boss will be forewarned and slaughter them on their second foray. That's a fairly typical length for a level and the natural unit of that dungeon is the level.

Designers make large dungeons as part of the fantasy RPG aesthetic, but they usually aren't meant to be multi-day and when they are the days are much longer than spec.

The fundamental problem is that the dungeon designers don't listen to the game designers and the game designers completely ignore the dungeon designers.

By design a CR=APL encounter should drain 1/4 of the party's resources. This is off because resources increase as you level and the difficulty is calibrated to a very unoptimized party, but it's the design intent.

When is the last time you saw a dungeon with just four encounters averaging CR=APL? That's what a Paizo adventure should be delivering according to spec. Properly calibrated to a group that can optimize but isn't hardcore about it you should have 4 encounters averaging CR=APL+1. When's the last time you saw that either? It doesn't happen much. You get little house clearing ops and you get big endurance dungeons and the game mechanics don't scale properly to either.

The module writers ignore the specs for the CR system and the rules designers blithely ignore the way adventures are and always have been written in actual reality.

Except the recharge variant in Unearthed Arcana, whoever came up with grit and the people who did 4e. Per encounter or renewable abilities are critical to making the game work for both the one or two encounter per day hex crawl and the properly guarded lair of evilness.

Albion, The Eye wrote:
- There is absolutely no way of addressing condition removal at this point

With this condition it has to be cleric. Everyone else is missing something or has it badly delayed from when it's expected. Except the healing patron witch, but that's only going to make your party's difficulties worse.

The most important thing, though, is to make sure the next character to die is one of the redundant arcanists or the psychic and that they replace it with another tank. You have a 1:1 tank to squishy ratio if you count the rogue as a tank. You shouldn't. Counting him as a squishy you have 1:2, which is extremely low. You should strive to never go below 1:1 and 2:1 or 3:2 is healthier.

No one can provide significant in combat healing and front line. There are oracle and shaman builds that heal usefully in combat before Heal, but they use life link and all their actions to do it so they can't really front line as well.

Hmm wrote:
Atarlost wrote:
I said it's strictly worse than an unarchetyped bard in the PFS context but playable.

It's about even with an unarchetyped bard. Really, it has a lot in common with the core bard. It still has the two major iconic bardic abilities: inspire courage and bardic knowledge.

It's just not as great for PFS where your team varies. However, get one friend who you regularly play with for this character and I believe that this archetype can far surpass the regular core bard. This bard does not go it alone. Get him a familiar or a friend with teamwork feats, and he becomes awesome.


A familiar won't help. Familiars don't get feats because they don't have real hit dice. You have to reliably game with another real world player. Most people in PFS don't.

In a home game where you have a constant group and everyone builds their characters together it's great, but in PFS everything teamwork related is going to be wasted almost all of the time and the other ability is dropping a generally useful caster boosting ability for a very specific ability that will probably never get used.

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If you can't keep your dungeons day trip sized, try the Unearthed Arcana recharge magic variant and kludge something similar for all other resource pools.

Unearthed Arcana is on the d20SRD.

Selvaxri wrote:
You bashed this archetype right out the gate, Atarlost followed suit, and Hmm atleast said it's best when working with other whom also invested in teamwork feats.

I said it's strictly worse than an unarchetyped bard in the PFS context but playable. It's Demagogue that's a hard no.

But I don't think you'll get to use the teamwork feats because any time you could be sharing them you could be inspiring courage instead, which is a hefty attack and damage bonus and is what moves you from poor accuracy to acceptable accuracy. It's the difference between being able to power attack or deadly aim and do worthwhile damage and not being able to and not doing worthwhile damage. Add in the action cost of switching performances and it's going to be really iffy most of the time.

You can't use it with lookout because you'll never already be performing when you need it.

Outflank and Precise Strike are the most overvalued teamwork feats. That means they're probably the ones you're most likely to encounter on inquisitors and cavaliers.

I'm not finding two teamwork feats that are better than +2/+2 for everyone given the reality that not everyone can always flank.

Allied Spellcaster is a late pick once spell resistance starts to be a problem. Occasionally you'll be able to get use out of that one.

But, really, since you won't use the ability you should build just like a normal bard apart from skills. And you might decide not to get discordant voice since it would only be at the end of your PFS career and without versatile performance the prerequisite hurts.

Real people fight with multiple styles.

Post-Marian Legionnaire: sword and shield (with bashing even though they're using the most tower shield like of all tower shields) and thrown weapon.

Pretty much every military archer ever: bow or crossbow and some sort of secondary weapon (usually a sword).

Actual German combat instructor Hans Talhoffer: two handed sword, sword and shield, sword and spiked shield, sword and dagger, poleaxe, and two handed spiked shield off the top of my head.

Anyone with a ranged weapon will be proficient in a back up melee weapon. Anyone who aspires to be a teacher of combat must master several styles because he'll be expected to train more than one kind of troop.

I'd like to see weapon properties unified with natural attack modifiers like grab, trip, and pull. There's no reason to have two different mechanics for basically the same thing, and it would make weapon properties actually useful.

I'm going to have to agree with Chess Pwn.

You may only be giving up Inspire Competence for Inspire Teamwork, but you can use the former on occasion. You can't use the latter until you get the ability to stack performances. At level 10. And you need to cast a 4th level spell to do it.

Inspire Courage is that good. Almost no other combat performance has any purpose at all.

The one you're giving up for essentially just faster diplomacy is the one other good combat performance. Dirge of Doom cuts down saves with no roll required, which is your go to way to boost casters.

Since you can never choose Inspire Teamwork over Inspire Courage your bonus teamwork feats will be useless in PFS. Unless, like Hmm, you have two people running coordinated characters and always attending the same PFS scenarios. Well Versed is no loss (if it comes up you won't even remember you have it anyways), but Versatile Performance is versatile.

I mean, it's not horrible. Every trade it makes is a trade down in the PFS context, but at least it doesn't lose your basic accuracy booster so you can still function. You can play it and be useful and have fun, but it'll be strictly inferior to an un-archetyped bard.

Demagogue is absolutely horrible, though. You delay inspire courage until level 5 and reduce it by +1/+1. In principle this isn't as useless as archetypes that trade away the whole ability, but it's still really bad and you should never ever use it. Not even to build an NPC since the abilities it gives are things a GM should handwave for NPCs anyways.

A bard without spells is only half of a class. I'd suggest using Freebooter Ranger instead as a good magic light class with an inspiration-like mechanic available from level 1.

Snowblind wrote:
Harleequin wrote:


1) Jesus - divinely wise but as far as we understand not academically trained at all

Your base ability scores are totally independent of academic training.

Also, while I haven't read the bible in ages, I don't remember Jesus being of particularly questionable intelligence. His wisdom was probably high, but I can't think of any particularly useful indicators of his intelligence.

Also, he was Jewish. They had the most universal and academic religious teaching in the classical world. To be recognized as a rabbi as he was even at the beginning of his ministry indicates way more book learning than most people of the time could hope to aspire to. It's not the most useful education for things other than religious debates, but then neither was a classical Greek education. The two are roughly comparable.

Das Bier wrote:
nah it'd get destroyed by the wind motion. It's just mold, and it would be setting up some pretty severe winds.

Without cold air overlaying warm air you don't get those winds.

Convection happens when you have hot fluid below cold fluid. Brown mold at the bottom of a volcano will reduce the convection in the air and the magma is so viscous that violent enough convection to destroy the mold is unlikely.

If you don't already get tornadoes in normal volcanoes you won't get them when you make the magma surface colder.

You should always take flying kick as your first style strike.

I'm not sure personal trial is really weaker than smite evil. It boosts damage less, but it also boosts attack, saves, and AC. Since the OP can't rely on having a cloak of resistance he won't have saves so high as to make that redundant against enemies worth smiting.

I wouldn't leave paladin for sentinel. Therefore skip deific obedience and take power attack there instead of the sentinel bonus feat you aren't getting.

Champion of Irori probably won't work well. It's a hybrid PrC so you'd lose gestalt on those levels and it's not better than being a gestalt paladin monk. And if you don't lose gestalt you'd be locked into pairing it with monk anyways and after discounting everything that would just overlap it's probably not better than paladin.

That int penalty is always going to hurt interesting and versatile since skills are what let you play most of the non-combat parts of the game.

Bard would work. Medium armor proficiency is only useful at low level if you can take the armor expert trait and get mithril breastplate and bardic weapon proficiencies are adequate. Or if your dex isn't going to fill that out anyways elven chain and no trait. Versatile Performance helps your skill situation slightly. I'd only plan around the first one and go for act or comedy since you have racial bonuses to diplomacy and sense motive. If you can RP in PFS that's your handle for it.

Oracle would work. Skills will be tighter, but you should be no worse off than a human cleric. You can pick up your missing proficiencies with battle or I think ancestors or metal.

Another possibility is cavalier. Cockatrice can leverage charisma well with standard action dazzling display and you're in the same skill situation as the oracle. Maybe better because you can better afford to use your favored class bonus on them.

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