Using flying kick as an intitator


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Me and my GM are disagreeing on the reading of the flying kick style strike from unchained i can get as a monk. I argue that it should be possible to use flying kick as an initiator, in other words my turn would go: flying kick->rest of flurry.
My gamemaster argues that it cannot be used this way and argues that it has to be part of an already started flurry of blows and that i cannot open with the flying kick.

"This movement is made as part of the monk's flurry of blows attack and does not require an additional action."

He argues that since its a part of the flurry it already needs to have started. He argues that it would be too strong of an ability, basically making it a smaller but more flexible pounce.

I would argue that since the movement is part of the flurry of blows, as long as i make an attack at the end, I'm still within the rules to do the flurry after engaging.

"This movement may be between attacks." I would argue that it wouldn't make sense to point out that it may be used between, and would have been worded diffrently if it only could be used between attacks. The "may" indicates that it also can be used before or after, but since the rest of the ruling rules out after we are left with before.

I also find it weird that his interpritation incetivices me to start a flurry by lightly slapping an ally before doing the rest of the flurry on the enemy.

Could somebody enlighten us on how you would rule this?


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Pathfinder Companion Subscriber
Unchained Monk wrote:

Style Strike (Ex)

At 5th level, a monk can learn one type of style strike. Whenever he makes a flurry of blows, he can designate one of his unarmed strikes as a style strike. This attack is resolved as normal, but it has an additional effect depending on the type of strike chosen. At 9th level, and every 4 levels thereafter, a monk learns an additional style strike. He must choose which style strike to apply before the attack roll is made. At 15th level, he can designate up to two of his unarmed strikes each round as a style strike, and each one can be a different type. The monk can choose from any of the following strikes.

Quote:
Flying Kick: The monk leaps through the air to strike a foe with a kick. Before the attack, the monk can move a distance equal to his fast movement bonus. This movement is made as part of the monk's flurry of blows attack and does not require an additional action. At the end of this movement, the monk must make an attack against an adjacent foe. This movement may be between attacks. This movement provokes an attack of opportunity as normal. The attack made after the movement must be a kick.

You may designate one of your attacks in the flurry of blows to be a style strike. This can be the first one, and nothing in Flying Kick specifically overrides this.

You are correct here; you may use a flying kick to extend your effective range and effectively move your fast movement distance, and still make your full flurry of blows.

It's not exactly ever going to be as good as Pounce, since you're not getting the bonus to attacks and you can only move your fast movement distance, and not your charge distance which would be anywhere from 50 to 90 feet greater, barring magic items that might make it even larger a gap.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

that's pretty much the whole of it. you just make your first attack your style strike. I'm pretty sure this how the majority of people run and use it, as an initiator.


Your GM is entirely wrong. Flying Kick is meant to fix the monk's classic issue of having high mobility in a game that punishes moving. It is exactly a pounce ability, but with a restricted range at first.

And please laugh at your GM's idea that Flying Kick is too strong. Level 5 wizards are throwing fireballs and summoning the always invisible aether elemental. Next level druids are Wild Shaping into tigers and actually getting pounce. Seriously, GMs need to knock off this crap.


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Monk OP pls nerf


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
Johnnycat93 wrote:
Monk OP pls nerf

this isn't even funny.


I wouldn't call it "OP", but I'd call it "holy hell that's an awesome martial ability when you pair it with being able to make multiple bonus attacks per round".

If actually really pushing the limits of Unchained Monk, a level 12 Umonk 11/ Cleric of Shizuru 1 can go:

30-foot Flying Kick unarmed strike (main) -> Domain Strike: Gentle Rest -> Medusa's Wrath bonus unarmed strike no.1 -> Medusa's Wrath bonus unarmed strike no.2 -> two-handed katana strike -> two-handed katana strike -5 -> two-handed katana strike -5 -> two-handed katana strike -10 -> two-handed katana strike (haste).

Scarab Sages

How are you granting Katana the monk special ability to FoB with it? As well, is the enhanced crit worth losing the 2d6 base unarmed Damage?


Crusader's Flurry, and yes. Pretty much any weapon is more desirable than Unarmed Strike.


BadBird wrote:

I wouldn't call it "OP", but I'd call it "holy hell that's an awesome martial ability when you pair it with being able to make multiple bonus attacks per round".

If actually really pushing the limits of Unchained Monk, a level 12 Umonk 11/ Cleric of Shizuru 1 can go:

30-foot Flying Kick unarmed strike (main) -> Domain Strike: Gentle Rest -> Medusa's Wrath bonus unarmed strike no.1 -> Medusa's Wrath bonus unarmed strike no.2 -> two-handed katana strike -> two-handed katana strike -5 -> two-handed katana strike -5 -> two-handed katana strike -10 -> two-handed katana strike (haste).

That's really cool, and I'm not knocking it too hard, but for anyone who thinks that's anywhere near OP, the level 12 wizard hanging out next to the monk/cleric casts geas and removes any living creature of any HD from the fight with no save.

Unchained Monks get some fun stuff, but they are no where close to OP, and anyone who thinks so is completely and objectively wrong.

Scarab Sages

Johnnycat93 wrote:
Crusader's Flurry, and yes. Pretty much any weapon is more desirable than Unarmed Strike.

I just figure you could make use of the fact that you already have to make 3 unarmed strikes and all those feats you need to get the katana online, and instead get pummeling style and improved critical and crit every attack that hits about 50 % of the time. why mix unarmed strikes and katana strikes and fail to maximize either?


Correction, Geas won't work in combat, but there are other spells that will do better than eight attacks.


burkoJames wrote:
Johnnycat93 wrote:
Crusader's Flurry, and yes. Pretty much any weapon is more desirable than Unarmed Strike.
I just figure you could make use of the fact that you already have to make 3 unarmed strikes and all those feats you need to get the katana online, and instead get pummeling style and improved critical and crit every attack that hits about 50 % of the time. why mix unarmed strikes and katana strikes and fail to maximize either?

Probably because the payoff from a 15-20 crit with the Katana is worth more than a couple extra feats thrown at unarmed strike. Plus, Scorpion Style is a lot more useful in this case than Pummeling Style. Pummeling Style isn't a wise investment for an UMonk.


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zolari wrote:
He argues that it would be too strong of an ability, basically making it a smaller but more flexible pounce.

This is literally the entire reason it exists.


burkoJames wrote:
Johnnycat93 wrote:
Crusader's Flurry, and yes. Pretty much any weapon is more desirable than Unarmed Strike.
I just figure you could make use of the fact that you already have to make 3 unarmed strikes and all those feats you need to get the katana online, and instead get pummeling style and improved critical and crit every attack that hits about 50 % of the time. why mix unarmed strikes and katana strikes and fail to maximize either?

You certainly can just use unarmed strikes. Pummeling Style was reworked from what it used to be (whatever that was; the debates never ended), and now it's just Cluster Shot. Jabbing Style might, ultimately, be worth more. Anyhow, FoB with katana requires two feats to use, and one of those feats is a useful +1 attack anyhow; but really, I just cite katana because it's a cool weapon to flurry and very powerful, especially with two-handed Power Attack (that unarmed can't do). Using a weapon on a Monk also means that you're free to use a style that doesn't just boost your unarmed.

Scarab Sages

Johnnycat93 wrote:
burkoJames wrote:
Johnnycat93 wrote:
Crusader's Flurry, and yes. Pretty much any weapon is more desirable than Unarmed Strike.
I just figure you could make use of the fact that you already have to make 3 unarmed strikes and all those feats you need to get the katana online, and instead get pummeling style and improved critical and crit every attack that hits about 50 % of the time. why mix unarmed strikes and katana strikes and fail to maximize either?
Probably because the payoff from a 15-20 crit with the Katana is worth more than a couple extra feats thrown at unarmed strike. Plus, Scorpion Style is a lot more useful in this case than Pummeling Style. Pummeling Style isn't a wise investment for an UMonk.

I apparently missed some errata on pummeling style, so i actually agree with you there. Its crit potential was significantly reduced. my mistake. though i will note that Scorpian style, despite its name is not actually a style feat, and can be used while in any given style.

I'll think on this more.


Scorpion 'Style' is pointless, IMO. You can take Medusa's Wrath as a bonus feat with no prerequisites, and then cross it with anything that causes stagger - like Domain Strike: Gentle Rest.

Scarab Sages

Ive looked at it, and I think unarmed strikes hold up pretty favorably with the katana build unless strength modifiers get high enough for the two-handed bonuses to start overcoming the damage benefit.

I realized that the second attack granted by Umonk FoB is actually at full BAB, so Ive accounted for that here.

I am not actually looking for crits with my build, so I will in general assume no crits on my build.

Flying Kick -> Medusa -> Medusa -> Unarmed/Katana -> Unarmed/Katana -> Unarmed/Katana -5 -> Unarmed/Katana -10 -> Unarmed/Katana Haste

Thats 6 full Bab attacks. Lets put a baseline of half of them hitting, and a pre magic item strength of 18.

for me, i get 3x(2d6+4) and an additional 4d6 from jabbing style, for 10d6+12, or an average of 47 Damage.

For the Katana Build, it gets a little trickier to do the math on, but, assuming your katana crits on every hit, you average between 3x(2d8+12) and 3x(2d6+4), which comes out to 6d8+36 and 6d6+12 which comes out to 65 and 39, the midpoint of which is - 52. so yes, you can burst higher with really good rolls. (and these numbers assumed a far higher crit chance then the 25% youd actually have.)But ive got a pretty consistent damage pool. Its possible features like power attack would be viable enough for you to break away from me. I'm just idlely speculating.

Perhaps some serious theory crafting would show that the numbers do win out in your favor, But i can put my remaining options into investing in unarmed strikes, so those 3+ hits will keep universally getting better. For you only half your hits will will improve in any fashion, and most of those improvements wont multiply with a crit, except again for power attack.

I just dont think the disparity is as bad as you think.


Everyone always assuming they can get Medusa's Wrath to proc more than once in a blue moon confuse me.

Your only options for making it work are going first in combat (never guaranteed), getting Stunning Fist to work, or using Scorion Style/Gorgon's Fist.

The first will only ever work on round 1, so you better hope you start within 15-20 feet of a guy and go first.

The second relies on the use of one of the most notoriously pitiful class features in the game, because you do not have the stats to jack that DC to a manageable level.

The third relies on the enemy failing not one, but TWO consecutive Fort saves of the same pitiful DC as option 2. And with no options (like Mantis Style, Ability Focus, etc.) to raise the DC. And requires you to spend TWO ROUNDS setting it up.

Realistically speaking, Medusa's Wrath is a non-factor in DPR calculations unless all you're fighting are Zombies.

Using an actual melee weapon, with the superior crit range/multiplier, better accuracy (due to likely having a higher enhancement bonus), and greater strength bonus to damage is going to be the stronger pure damage option in almost all cases. Grab a Santetsukon and go to town with your d10, 19-20/x2 self and enjoy more damage with less hassle.

Multiclassed builds might be different, but even then only really niche, specific ones.

Assuming you crit on every strike is a whole 'nother can of worms that should be pretty obvious as to why it shouldn't be considered a perk.


Above, BadBird used Domain Strike and gentle rest to proc staggered, which is actually pretty clever I think. Especially since he grabs that and crusader's flurry with only 1 level dip.


There should be other classes in your party that can impose one of the conditions conducive to Medusa's Wrath. Frigid Touch is a good example that is easy to find.


Crusader's Flurry is not very good for UnMonks, as:

1. It can't be used for extra attacks with Ki Pool, Stunning Fist or Elemental Fury as it is still not a monk weapon so it cannot be enchanted with ki focus;

2. Weapon is still not in the monk weapon fighter group so it cannot be used with Ascetic Style;

3. Cannot be used with Medusa's Wrath;

4. Cannot be used with Style Strikes.


Unchained Monks always take Medusa's Wrath because the other level 10 bonus feats are Improved Critical, Snatch Arrows, and Spring Attack. Might as well take the free feat that can give you two free attacks, even if it's rare.

And you need to do at least one unarmed strike to use your Style Strikes, so why not have the option?


Secret Wizard wrote:
There should be other classes in your party that can impose one of the conditions conducive to Medusa's Wrath. Frigid Touch is a good example that is easy to find.

Maybe they can, maybe they can't. Banking on them doing it every round of every combat just to help you out isn't a good move.


Sundakan wrote:
Secret Wizard wrote:
There should be other classes in your party that can impose one of the conditions conducive to Medusa's Wrath. Frigid Touch is a good example that is easy to find.
Maybe they can, maybe they can't. Banking on them doing it every round of every combat just to help you out isn't a good move.

Why would you need them to do it every round?

Save-or-sucks are super common. The UnMonks ability to jump from target to target, poaching on whoever fails their save on a stagger effect, which is super cheap to come by, is a great ability, not something you need to do every day to be worth it though.

In the end game, it can easily execute a boss that PASSES a save against Stunning Critical, Stunning Finale, Suffocation, and other stuff.

You don't need to do it every round to be good, but it's a massive force multiplier with very little set up.


Just to note - I'm not really pushing Crusader's Flurry as some kind of supreme power-option or anything; it's an indulgence of mine because the style of it is awesome, and I'd guess it's about as good as typical pure unarmed strikes with a good style would be.

Most of the issues with a weapon on an Unchained Monk boil down to a single attack; your 1/round Style Strike can be the same attack as your 1/round Ki attack and your 1/round Stunning Fist, so it's generally a question of 1 attack out of many per round being 'left out'. Since UMonk gets full 1.5x STR as well as 1.5x Power Attack with a two-handed weapon, a weapon has even more of a natural advantage over an unarmed strike than with a normal Monk. Even if a UMonk invests in Dragon Style/Ferocity and triggers Medusa's, the strikes that don't need to be unarmed are probably going to be a fair deal more powerful with a weapon than with more fists.

If I had to guess, I'd guess that in the long run Jabbing Master and a reliable trigger to Medusa would tip the scale towards unarmed. But making all of your attacks minus one with a much more easily enhanced, higher-crit weapon at the cost of that one other strike being weaker is typically not a bad trade. Having your style open also means you can work in something else. Like maybe switching between one and two hands as needed to gain a huge AC buff off of Crane, and then exploiting that with Stylish Riposte (though I might be running out of feats at this point).


A CR 12 monster has AC 27 according to the Average Monster Stats table. For this I'm assuming a +2 weapon/amulet, a Str of 18 (16 at first level, with two level increases), and a +4 Str belt. Weapon Focus will also be selected for both strikes and katanas, no Power Attack or Styles used. The monster will be stunned in order for Medusa's Wrath to trigger, since monks can drop that themselves, even if it rarely happens. Thus their modified AC is 25.

Our monk has a BAB of +11, unarmed damage of 1d10 ×2, and katana damage of 1d8 18-20/×2. The average damage of our unarmed strike is 13.5 (5.5 +6 Str +2 enhancement), and the katana's average is 15.5 (4.5 +9 Str +2 enhancement).

The formula to get average damage for a single attack is Weapon Average×(Chance to Hit-Chance to Crit)+Weapon Average×Crit Multiplier×(Chance to Crit×Chance to Confirm)+Weapon Average×(Chance to Crit×(1-Chance to Crit)).

Flying Kick -> Medusa -> Medusa -> Katana -> Katana -> Katana -5 -> Katana -10 -> Katana Haste
The attack bonuses are +20/+20/+20/+20/+20/+15/+10/+20.
The average damage for an unarmed strike at +20 is 13.5×(0.8-0.05)+13.5×2×(0.05×0.8)+13.5×(0.05×0.2)=11.34

The katana attacks are 15.5×(0.8-0.15)+(15.5×2)×(0.15×0.8)+15.5×(0.15×0.2)=14.26/9.80/5.35.
The total is 11.34 + 11.34 + 11.34 + 14.26 + 14.26 + 9.80 + 5.35 + 14.26 = 91.95
__________
Flying Kick -> Medusa -> Medusa -> Unarmed -> Unarmed -> Unarmed -5 -> Unarmed -10 -> Unarmed Haste

This monk didn't need to multiclass, so their unarmed strikes do 2d6 damage and they have a +12 BAB.

Their unarmed Strikes do 11.38/9.45/5.29.
Total is 11.38 + 11.38 + 11.38 + 11.38 + 11.38 + 9.45 + 5.29 + 11.38 = 83.02

So dealing 8.93 damage more cost a level of monk, another feat (Weapon Focus (katana)), and 8,000 gp to enchant the katana.

Now the thing that keeps me from using the katana and just sticking with fists is this: a CR 12 creature has 160 HP according to the table. Both monks will drop their foe in two rounds by themselves, or one round if they have a buddy putting out at least as much damage as them. So why bother with the katana and multiclassing if it isn't enough to go from two-shotting an enemy to one-shotting them?


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"Come on, man, all the cool monks are doing it!"


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d'Eon wrote:
Now the thing that keeps me from using the katana and just sticking with fists is this: a CR 12 creature has 160 HP according to the table. Both monks will drop their foe in two rounds by themselves, or one round if they have a buddy putting out at least as much damage as them. So why bother with the katana and multiclassing if it isn't enough to go from two-shotting an enemy to one-shotting them?

This is actually a fairly interesting and often overlooked point. What does winning the DPR Olympics actually do for your character?

Of course, not every monster is the average. There can definately be those that are abnormal. And though the Katana might be more costly, I am not sure multiclassing on a martial can be counted as a real disadvantage. I don't think Monk has thay much stuff that loosing a Monk level is a big deal. And furthermore for most of your career (barring games that stop at level 12) you will be ahead a little bit more because 12 is a key level for unarmed strike damage.

Honestly, I will probably never play either. But from what is presented the Monk with the Katana has a much more tempting target for enchantments than the unarmed Monk.


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Yeah, I think it's a personal choice between the two. Me, I really don't like multiclassing unless it's a prestige class, and even then I think twice. An extra 8-9 damage isn't worth it to me, especially since it won't actually kill the average enemy I face any faster. There just comes a point where you've optimised enough.

I just wanted to point out that either monk build is about as good as they can get facing an equal CR foe. One has a snazzy weapon to enchant, the other has a feat unspent and a wee bit more gold. But over a large number of fights against CR 12 opponents, both are pretty much the same.


d'Eon wrote:
There just comes a point where you've optimised enough.

Le gasp! Don't tell the high level power builders that!

But yea, I don't understand avoiding multiclassing. One of my favorite parts of builds! Cheesy multiclassing for daaays. XD But, in general I definitely would rather have a good CC or nitch option over more raw damage. Why I like the Brawler so much more. Though, Style Strikes are super awesome. Even if it feels like Flying Kick just outshines the rest for being so mandatory.


And I struggle to even remember that section of the rules exist :D Don't know why, I'd rather stay with one class and maaaybe a PrC. Don't like gestalt either.

I'm probably going to commit the heresy of taking Foot Stomp at 5 instead. Crane Style for super defense, Foot Stomp them to make them deal with me.


I mean, at 5th I can totally understand wanting Footstomp more. (Then you can start to pretend everything is Kung Fu Hustle! *shot*) Going past 9th without it would be waaaay too heretical though.


That's the plan. Though I wish there was a feat called Extra Style Strike, sure would be nice.


d'Eon wrote:
That's the plan. Though I wish there was a feat called Extra Style Strike, sure would be nice.

There is quite some room for additional UnMonk options...


d'Eon wrote:


I just wanted to point out that either monk build is about as good as they can get facing an equal CR foe. One has a snazzy weapon to enchant, the other has a feat unspent and a wee bit more gold. But over a large number of fights against CR 12 opponents, both are pretty much the same.

Ease of use is a pretty big factor. To get an unarmed build to be competitive in damage, you need to do a lot of work. Multiple Feats, specfic niche builds, ally aid, etc.

To get a weapon build to be so close to as good as to be irrelevant, or even better, you just need to...pick up a weapon. That RtK isn't changing much either way.


Sundakan wrote:
d'Eon wrote:


I just wanted to point out that either monk build is about as good as they can get facing an equal CR foe. One has a snazzy weapon to enchant, the other has a feat unspent and a wee bit more gold. But over a large number of fights against CR 12 opponents, both are pretty much the same.

Ease of use is a pretty big factor. To get an unarmed build to be competitive in damage, you need to do a lot of work. Multiple Feats, specfic niche builds, ally aid, etc.

To get a weapon build to be so close to as good as to be irrelevant, or even better, you just need to...pick up a weapon. That RtK isn't changing much either way.

Not a lot of work. Two feats and the right class.


I dont think it was mentioned above but dipping Crusader Cleric will get you free weapon focus with that katana and still let you get the repose domain. A big pay off not mentioned was moving to a weapon lets you get cheaper enchantments to your hit/damage and opens up the neck slot for a higher AC. If you are playing for the long haul, it can be worth dipping on an unarmed monk anyways to get that sweet gentle repose/medusa's wrath combo going. Grab yourself monk robes to make up for the damage or otherwise just cackle madly as you pummel the crap out of crap.


burkoJames wrote:
How are you granting Katana the monk special ability to FoB with it? As well, is the enhanced crit worth losing the 2d6 base unarmed Damage?

Monk unarmed strikes just make up for them being light weapons.

At level 1 an unarmed strike does on average 5.5 with power attack ignoring crit. A temple sword does on average 7.5 when wielded two handed with power attack ignoring crits.

At level 4 an unarmed strike does 8.5 with power attack. A temple sword does 10.5

At level 8 an unarmed strike does 11.5. A temple sword does 13.5

At level 12 an unarmed strike does 15. A temple sword does 16.5

At level 16 an unarmed strike does 19. A temple sword does 19.5

At level 20 an unarmed strike does 23. A temple sword does 22.5

Every 4 BAB the two handed weapon user gets another 3 damage from power attack. The unarmed monk gets 2 from power attack and, until level 12, 1 from the increasing damage die and he starts out behind. At higher levels he gains damage faster, but because he started behind he only catches up at a level most characters don't reach and only if compared to what is no longer the best monk weapon. The unarmed monk takes until level 16 to even beat a quarterstaff.

Only at level 20 is the unarmed strike better than getting +3 instead of +2 from power attack. A katana is strictly superior to a temple sword. So are some genuinely two handed monk weapons that the unchained monk is proficient with that the original monk wasn't.
It's not like you need a free hand to unarmed strike with: all the good style strikes are kicks anyways.

Unlike the original monk, the unchained monk also gets 1.5x strength when using a two handed weapon. The same clause was also preventing the original monk from getting 1.5x strength when using dragon style in a flurry so he can equalize that, but only if he doesn't want a different style.

Unarmed monks get to use the same enhancement for all attacks, but armed monks make one style strike on only some rounds because only flying kick is worth using unenhanced and unarmed strike enhancement costs twice as much as armed enhancement and also makes your ANA cost 50% more if your GM even allows you to combine it with the AMF.


Sundakan wrote:

Ease of use is a pretty big factor. To get an unarmed build to be competitive in damage, you need to do a lot of work. Multiple Feats, specfic niche builds, ally aid, etc.

To get a weapon build to be so close to as good as to be irrelevant, or even better, you just need to...pick up a weapon. That RtK isn't changing much either way.

Not quite, the unarmed monk attack routine I posted did only 8 damage less than a weapon using monk. Both routines were calculated with using only Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist, Medusa's Wrath, and Weapon Focus for katana and unarmed strikes.

Both setups killed an average CR 12 foe in two rounds. If Medusa's Wrath doesn't proc, the damage goes to 69.27 for the katana monk, and 60.26for the unarmed monk. Add one more buddy doing 40ish damage a round and the enemy is still down in a round.

The katana monk enchanted both an AoMF and katana to get those numbers, and both spent an equal number of feats. The unarmed monk is also not calculated with Dragon Style active.

Swapping the +2 AoMF lets you buy a +3 katana instead of +2, making the katana monk's total 74.83. A 12 point difference, but still not massively significant to me.


Can you use flying kick with ascetic style and a reach weapon to get that tiny little boost to your "pounce" range? I keep toying with a Kurisagame Unmonk.


Torbyne wrote:
A big pay off not mentioned was moving to a weapon lets you get cheaper enchantments to your hit/damage and opens up the neck slot for a higher AC.

Irrelevant. Barkskin is a qinggong power. Amulet of natural armor is always a bad idea on a Monk.


Secret Wizard wrote:
Torbyne wrote:
A big pay off not mentioned was moving to a weapon lets you get cheaper enchantments to your hit/damage and opens up the neck slot for a higher AC.
Irrelevant. Barkskin is a qinggong power. Amulet of natural armor is always a bad idea on a Monk.

Partially, the weapon still saves you money on enchantments, the amulet saves you some action economy and Ki points. It's the route i'd prefer to go at least.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
Secret Wizard wrote:
Torbyne wrote:
A big pay off not mentioned was moving to a weapon lets you get cheaper enchantments to your hit/damage and opens up the neck slot for a higher AC.
Irrelevant. Barkskin is a qinggong power. Amulet of natural armor is always a bad idea on a Monk.

you also are still applying wisdom to AC... using your whatever the slot is that has crown items is called...

has house ruled slots away


BadBird wrote:

Just to note - I'm not really pushing Crusader's Flurry as some kind of supreme power-option or anything; it's an indulgence of mine because the style of it is awesome, and I'd guess it's about as good as typical pure unarmed strikes with a good style would be.

Most of the issues with a weapon on an Unchained Monk boil down to a single attack; your 1/round Style Strike can be the same attack as your 1/round Ki attack and your 1/round Stunning Fist, so it's generally a question of 1 attack out of many per round being 'left out'. Since UMonk gets full 1.5x STR as well as 1.5x Power Attack with a two-handed weapon, a weapon has even more of a natural advantage over an unarmed strike than with a normal Monk. Even if a UMonk invests in Dragon Style/Ferocity and triggers Medusa's, the strikes that don't need to be unarmed are probably going to be a fair deal more powerful with a weapon than with more fists.

If I had to guess, I'd guess that in the long run Jabbing Master and a reliable trigger to Medusa would tip the scale towards unarmed. But making all of your attacks minus one with a much more easily enhanced, higher-crit weapon at the cost of that one other strike being weaker is typically not a bad trade. Having your style open also means you can work in something else. Like maybe switching between one and two hands as needed to gain a huge AC buff off of Crane, and then exploiting that with Stylish Riposte (though I might be running out of feats at this point).

Having to split your bonuses is a big downside of this. If you want to mix attacks you are going to have to buy an amulet of mighty fists and a magic weapon.

Scarab Sages

How do things change if the katana is +1 Keen instead of a flat +2.

Also, to even out the gold spent, you could give the unarmed build Deliquescent Gloves. 8,000 gold, so roughly the same as the katana. They wouldn't apply to the kick in the flying kick, but would apply to all of the other attacks.

I'm on my phone or I would attempt to do the math.


I'm running the numbers, but something just leapt out at me.
+2 katana versus AC 25: 15.5×(0.8-0.15)+(31×0.15×0.8)+(15.5×0.15×0.2)=14.26/9.80/5.35.

+1 keen katana versus AC 25: 14.5×(0.75-0.3)+(29×0.3×.75)+(14.5×0.3×0.25)=14.14/9.43/4.53

If you don't have something that procs on a crit, don't make your katana keen, or at least don't use gold for it. Cast keen edge or get a scabbard of keen edge instead.


Barkskin is a limited duration power eating a very limited resource. Unless the duration is at least an hour/level abilities are not a substitute for items. And almost every ability the monk used to get for free all day is now a ki power that costs per use, making ki even dearer.


Atarlost wrote:
Barkskin is a limited duration power eating a very limited resource. Unless the duration is at least an hour/level abilities are not a substitute for items. And almost every ability the monk used to get for free all day is now a ki power that costs per use, making ki even dearer.

Ki leech.u get to use it with no ki.

On a side note about getting ur medusa wrath attacks. I know were talking about flying kick, but u get more then one special attacl.so incase ur allready in reach and even better at enogh high level to use two while full attacking.spin kick. Make one normal attack amd for the medusa extra attavks spin kicks


If you are only throwing a few US then the bodywraps is a really good idea. Much cheaper than the AOMF and you're getting as much use since you're only making that many US anyways.

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