Whats the "point" of the starknife?


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Aniuś the Talewise wrote:

It has four points, not one ;)

(sorry I had to make this joke)

Badum bump. ::: canned chuckle :::

Doomed Hero wrote:


I can see it if it was about half the size it is usually presented as, but they all look like they're about two and a half feet across. They weigh three frickin' pounds. That's the weight of hefty hatchet.

Per the game dynamics, a handaxe (hatchet) is 3lbs, the starknife is depicted in some of the art more on what would be a 6lbs-8lbs weight, not 3lbs, based on the amount of structure metal that would be required. The Starknife is the weight of 3 daggers, not 4 short swords.

This is where GMs need to consider the game dynamics and listed uses over "artist impressions". If you look at the average Alchemist image, the guy would blow himself up just running to a fray 8x out of 10 times.

Starknife weight and damage suggest a smaller than "anime style oversize" weapons. Images make them more like something that you would see next to an anime character like "Cloud" and his sword that he could not be able to properly manuvere in a real combat situation.

Just shows that GMs and players need to consider common sense over excessive imaginative interpretations.

Sovereign Court

I really don't see the whole issue here.

Is the Starknife a top tier weapon which should be used by a bunch of different builds? No.

Is it good for thrower builds due to having superior range? Yes.

And thrower builds can be pretty viable with SA classes. Throwers can chuck out more attacks than any other build in the game due to combining TWF with Rapid Shot. They're also decent in melee. Extremely solid if they have a buddy with Greater Feint.

A bit of a jack of all trades. When it wins initiative the first round it gets a full attack with SA. (unlike melee builds) Then it can close to melee for flank SA (unlike ranged builds).

And to those saying that throwing isn't viable before you get a blinkback? Much before you can afford a blinkback belt - no one has magic weapons anyway, and you can just carry around a score of regular star-knives.

Frankly - they'd be much more viable if Improved Point Blank Shot didn't exist so they'd have the melee advantage over archers. (I hate that feat so much. I've house-ruled it out of my home games.)


Charon's Little Helper wrote:
Frankly - they'd be much more viable if Improved Point Blank Shot didn't exist so they'd have the melee advantage over archers. (I hate that feat so much. I've house-ruled it out of my home games.)

Wait. I when was "Improved Point Blank Shot" added. I see "Improved Precise Shot", but not "Improved Point Blank Shot" in the PRD.

Either way, even with point blank, the archer needs line of sight to hit, while a thrower can just use the same weapons he throws and melee and make attacks around corners and with minimal line of sight breaking.

Plus, the archer that takes Point Blank has to take it instead of another feat that could cause problems for others.

In most cases, most archer characters that I have seen used prefer to keep more distance between them and their targets. So the issues with point blank versus throwers is limited in my experience.


ShadoShryke wrote:
Charon's Little Helper wrote:
Frankly - they'd be much more viable if Improved Point Blank Shot didn't exist so they'd have the melee advantage over archers. (I hate that feat so much. I've house-ruled it out of my home games.)

Wait. I when was "Improved Point Blank Shot" added. I see "Improved Precise Shot", but not "Improved Point Blank Shot" in the PRD.

Either way, even with point blank, the archer needs line of sight to hit, while a thrower can just use the same weapons he throws and melee and make attacks around corners and with minimal line of sight breaking.

Plus, the archer that takes Point Blank has to take it instead of another feat that could cause problems for others.

In most cases, most archer characters that I have seen used prefer to keep more distance between them and their targets. So the issues with point blank versus throwers is limited in my experience.

its Greater Point Blank Shot ;)


James Jacobs wrote:

(shrug)

Your mileage may vary, I guess.

Not every build needs to be a damage per round contender.

I'm curious... what are Throwing Weapons supposed to be contenders of exactly? There's a pretty significant gap in support between throwing weapons and bows. Even crossbows have more feats and archetypes floating around for them. I don't think anyone expects throwing weapons (or the Starknife for that matter) to rocket to the top of any damage output contest. But it would be nice if a throwing weapon build actually kind of existed at all, instead of just being a gimmick for melee folks to use on rare occasions.


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Darkbridger wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:

(shrug)

Your mileage may vary, I guess.

Not every build needs to be a damage per round contender.

I'm curious... what are Throwing Weapons supposed to be contenders of exactly? There's a pretty significant gap in support between throwing weapons and bows. Even crossbows have more feats and archetypes floating around for them. I don't think anyone expects throwing weapons (or the Starknife for that matter) to rocket to the top of any damage output contest. But it would be nice if a throwing weapon build actually kind of existed at all, instead of just being a gimmick for melee folks to use on rare occasions.

In history (and by physics) throwing weapons would be just a standby or disruption technique for fighters of other types. For instance, an archer might carry a knife for melee, throwing, repairs and even eating.

Small throwing weapons were more of a distraction, because of how exacting you would have to be to get that exact critical strike with just muscle power and dexterity to to provide force and aim to the throw. I have watched my dad pin a roach to the wall with a folding buck knife from 15-16 feet away, but in a fight, he always said to rely more on your fists and what comes to hand because you can only carry so many knives and it is too easy to miss a prepared target.

Now, spears limit how many you can carry, but you can stab people, stop horses and throw them much farther more efficiently than a knife. Part of this is by learning trajectory so that you can let physics work for you, which does not work as well with small thrown weapons.

No matter how strong you are, there is only so far you can throw with any accuracy. This is why atlatl's, then bows, and then crossbows were invented.

The people that would want to break physics and damage via throwing weapons farther than they can physically throw become wizards. Those that don't want to mess with thrown weapons (other than spears) become archers.

Now, you could always make your own world with modified gravity that allows thrown weapons to be more effective.

Remember that the rule in Pen and paper games are only guidelines. It takes imagination to make it more than just a game of math and statistics.

Liberty's Edge

It's point blank master, and it's in the APG. And if you want a somewhat decent throwing build, there's the far strike monk from ranged tactics toolbox. It allows you to flurry with thrown weapons, gains proficiency with all thrown weapons and gets quick draw as a bonus feat.

EDIT - Unless he actually means the 3.5 feat.


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber
Deighton Thrane wrote:

It's point blank master, and it's in the APG. And if you want a somewhat decent throwing build, there's the far strike monk from ranged tactics toolbox. It allows you to flurry with thrown weapons, gains proficiency with all thrown weapons and gets quick draw as a bonus feat.

EDIT - Unless he actually means the 3.5 feat.

I'm thinking that might be the case, because I would argue that Point Blank Master is an excellent feat for a starknife user, even more-so than a regular archer because they actually have a reason to be in melee range with opponents.


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Darkbridger wrote:
I don't think anyone expects throwing weapons (or the Starknife for that matter) to rocket to the top of any damage output contest. But it would be nice if a throwing weapon build actually kind of existed at all, instead of just being a gimmick for melee folks to use on rare occasions.

Here you go. An official Paizo Starknife throwing archetype that can get you 1d4+21 damage per hit (at level 11), four attacks in a round AND uses a Blinkback Belt.

Level 11 Human with 16 Str and Dex after Racial and +2 from levels.
Take three levels in Weapon Master Fighter to get some feats and blammo. (Not really necessary, but I liked it for my build.)

1d4+21 - 3(Strength) + 3 (Weapon Training/Gloves) + 1 (Flying Blade Training) + 8 (Precise Strike) + 4 (Weapon Enhancement) + 2 (Weapon Specialization)

Plus, you are hitting at +20/+20/+15/+10.

If you want to forgo the Precise Strike bonus, you have the feats to launch a salvo of 8 attacks for 1d4+13 (MH) and 1d4+11 (OH) at +18/+18/+18/+18/+13/+13/+8/+8.

Seems pretty good to me.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Maybe there can be a specialized, long duration range buff spells for specific weapons and deities.

Like, Flying Starknife of Desna. For 24 hours, when you throw a starknife, you may target 2 creatures (or a number of creatures equal to your Wisdom modifier). You ignore half-cover and cover (but not full cover) as your starknife spins through the air.

Stuff like that.


SmiloDan wrote:

Maybe there can be a specialized, long duration range buff spells for specific weapons and deities.

Like, Flying Starknife of Desna. For 24 hours, when you throw a starknife, you may target 2 creatures (or a number of creatures equal to your Wisdom modifier). You ignore half-cover and cover (but not full cover) as your starknife spins through the air.

Stuff like that.

I really like this idea.

Deity specific spells would be a really neat way to make divine casters more unique.


Doomed Hero wrote:
SmiloDan wrote:

Maybe there can be a specialized, long duration range buff spells for specific weapons and deities.

Like, Flying Starknife of Desna. For 24 hours, when you throw a starknife, you may target 2 creatures (or a number of creatures equal to your Wisdom modifier). You ignore half-cover and cover (but not full cover) as your starknife spins through the air.

Stuff like that.

I really like this idea.

Deity specific spells would be a really neat way to make divine casters more unique.

Don't we just call these domain spells?


Doomed Hero wrote:
SmiloDan wrote:

Maybe there can be a specialized, long duration range buff spells for specific weapons and deities.

Like, Flying Starknife of Desna. For 24 hours, when you throw a starknife, you may target 2 creatures (or a number of creatures equal to your Wisdom modifier). You ignore half-cover and cover (but not full cover) as your starknife spins through the air.

Stuff like that.

I really like this idea.

Deity specific spells would be a really neat way to make divine casters more unique.

Adventure Path #2 has an article on Desna that includes a prestige class, a new domain and some new spells for devotees of Desna. c:

(I really like Desna actually, if I lived in Golarion she might be one of the gods I worship)


GM Bold Strider wrote:
Darkbridger wrote:
I don't think anyone expects throwing weapons (or the Starknife for that matter) to rocket to the top of any damage output contest. But it would be nice if a throwing weapon build actually kind of existed at all, instead of just being a gimmick for melee folks to use on rare occasions.

Here you go. An official Paizo Starknife throwing archetype that can get you 1d4+21 damage per hit (at level 11), four attacks in a round AND uses a Blinkback Belt.

Level 11 Human with 16 Str and Dex after Racial and +2 from levels.
Take three levels in Weapon Master Fighter to get some feats and blammo. (Not really necessary, but I liked it for my build.)

1d4+21 - 3(Strength) + 3 (Weapon Training/Gloves) + 1 (Flying Blade Training) + 8 (Precise Strike) + 4 (Weapon Enhancement) + 2 (Weapon Specialization)

Plus, you are hitting at +20/+20/+15/+10.

If you want to forgo the Precise Strike bonus, you have the feats to launch a salvo of 8 attacks for 1d4+13 (MH) and 1d4+11 (OH) at +18/+18/+18/+18/+13/+13/+8/+8.

Seems pretty good to me.

Ok, I stand corrected. Yet another reason I need to dig the ACG out of the box it is packed in and finally read it. Unfortunate that it is still item dependent, but it's definitely a possible build... a narrow build (dagger or starknife only) but still a build.

From the point of view of this build, I guess the starknife is a lot better than most other thrown weapons. I'm not sure whether the better crit of the dagger wins out over the range of the starknife for this though.

Dark Archive

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SmiloDan wrote:
Like, Flying Starknife of Desna. For 24 hours, when you throw a starknife, you may target 2 creatures (or a number of creatures equal to your Wisdom modifier). You ignore half-cover and cover (but not full cover) as your starknife spins through the air.

And we can call it a glaive!

Aniuś the Talewise wrote:
(I really like Desna actually, if I lived in Golarion she might be one of the gods I worship)

Ditto. She's my favorite, thematically, and would be an ideal 'tradiational elven goddess' for those who grew up with the Realms and Roger Moore's 'demihuman deities,' and are a bit put off by Calistria's harder edges, although the starknife is probably the only thing I don't love about her. (Same with Nethys, with his super-flexible N alignment, total lack of junky alignment domains, and, ugh, favored weapon - quarterstaff?)

Then again, I'd be all for interesting favored weapon stuff for several gods. A curved or wavy-bladed and notched midwife's/surgeon's/executioner's dagger for Pharasma, using dagger stats but with a higher crit multiplier and the deadly property could be funky (with the MW versions also counting as a MW Heal tool), or a combined shield-with-built-in-crossbow (or crossbow-with-built-in-shield) for Abadar, could be funky.


Hehe I think my Sun elves and Desna would have some fundamental ideological clashes. Wood elves might appreciate her though.

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Yeah, Desna is kind of anti-slavery. ;-)

Just like Asmodeus is a bit bossy.

Shadow Lodge

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Got it memorized?

Liberty's Edge

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Ah, thread necromancy.

Also, in this case, obsolete thread necromancy, since as of Divine Anthology there's at least one excellent mechanical option the starknife has that nobody else does: Cha to attack and damage. Which is wonderful.

It requires worshiping Desna, of course. :)

Liberty's Edge

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My mind was blown when I saw that one.

Asmodeus and Abadar should really take note - Desna has a monopoly on all the best divine features.

Liberty's Edge

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The Dandy Lion wrote:

My mind was blown when I saw that one.

Asmodeus and Abadar should really take note - Desna has a monopoly on all the best divine features.

I dunno, Abadar has Travel and Nobility (both excellent), a Trait to make Perception a Class Skill, and some pretty solid Feats, while Asmodeus has Trickery and Diabolical Negotiator, as well as some very nice summons.

Desna's followers don't really get better options (okay, the Domains are awesome, I admit), those options are just more focused on physical combat. And not even in a synchronized way given that using Butterfly Sting with a starknife is a bad life choice in general.

Liberty's Edge

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Mhm, true. I mostly singled those two out as being them being deities of trade/bargaining more than anything.

I must admit, nobility is an awesome domain, and I had forgotten eyes and ears of the city.

More on topic, I do think Desna's divine fighting technique was something thrown weapons sorely needed. Amusingly, works a bit better with the blinkback belt as the need for physical enhancements is much less urgent.

Liberty's Edge

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Personally, I think it works better as a melee technique.

Ranged combat feats generally require high Dex as a prerequisite, which limits its utility a bit (you can go a fair ways with Dex 13, I suppose, though what you do for AC at that point is a tad tricky). Meanwhile, you can do melee with Str 13 and Power Attack alone (which is an awesome option for caster builds).

Not that it's never useful at range (I can see some interesting Slayer builds taking advantage of this, for example), and any Bard can give up his 10th level Versatile Performance for the second level and get a nice ranged option right there, but it seems to work better as a primarily melee technique, IMO.

Liberty's Edge

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Sound advice. Two feats, minimal ability score investment and then you're free to specialise in casting/class features while still being a capable fighter.

I need to explore this technique more. There's a lot of potential. Thanks!

Liberty's Edge

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The Dandy Lion wrote:
Sound advice. Two feats, minimal ability score investment and then you're free to specialise in casting/class features while still being a capable fighter.

Yep. I swear my next build is gonna do precisely this as a Lunar Oracle (Spirit Guide) abusing Lore Spirit for Wizard spells (which requires high ratings in all mental stats).

Relevant to this tactic is the Varisian Tattoo Trait, which gives even those without martial weapons the appropriate Proficiency (and with solid Desna flavor to boot).

The Dandy Lion wrote:
I need to explore this technique more. There's a lot of potential. Thanks!

It's very cool without being actively broken. I'm quite pleased with it. :)

And you're quite welcome.

Sovereign Court

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion Subscriber

Sweet, sweet Varisian Tattoo. ^_^

As for Desna's Shooting Star, I'm worried that it won't make it to PFS. While it'd be a shame, I find it a little understandable - I'd be making a lot of Desnans.


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Deadmanwalking wrote:

Ah, thread necromancy.

Also, in this case, obsolete thread necromancy, since as of Divine Anthology there's at least one excellent mechanical option the starknife has that nobody else does: Cha to attack and damage. Which is wonderful.

It requires worshiping Desna, of course. :)

I don't actually have that booklet. So its a religon feat?

Sovereign Court

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion Subscriber

More or less, yes. ^_^

It's a feat (although certain classes can trade class features for it), and it requires worship of Desna; meeting additional prerequisites at higher levels lets you unlock additional benefits.

Silver Crusade

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Zwordsman wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:

Ah, thread necromancy.

Also, in this case, obsolete thread necromancy, since as of Divine Anthology there's at least one excellent mechanical option the starknife has that nobody else does: Cha to attack and damage. Which is wonderful.

It requires worshiping Desna, of course. :)

I don't actually have that booklet. So its a religon feat?

Yep.

Well, Deity feat technically.

Silver Crusade

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Rysky wrote:
Zwordsman wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:

Ah, thread necromancy.

Also, in this case, obsolete thread necromancy, since as of Divine Anthology there's at least one excellent mechanical option the starknife has that nobody else does: Cha to attack and damage. Which is wonderful.

It requires worshiping Desna, of course. :)

I don't actually have that booklet. So its a religon feat?

Yep.

Well, Deity feat technically.

Edit: Ninjaed by sneaky butterfly ninja Kali

Edit x2: Meant to hit edit, not reply >_<

Sovereign Court

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Think of it as a workout for your post count. ^_^

Silver Crusade

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Kalindlara wrote:
Think of it as a workout for your post count. ^_^

There are many other types of workouts I'd prefer :3


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I can imagine.

You do know you can delete your own post within one hour, right?

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Hehe

And I know, but it still shows up on the post counter for the thread.

Plus I found it amusing.


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The point is on the other end to the handle. Its pointy and often sharp, used to stab things. Hope this helps, cheers.


Bofor wrote:
The point is on the other end to the handle.

Nope, both ends of the handle are blunt. The pointy parts are at 45° in each direction from the handle.

:-p


And while we're getting technical about it, the knife doesn't actually have a point; it has 4.


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Plus if Charisma is not your character's strong suit, you can instead get Starry Grace and go all-in on Dexterity instead.


Derklord wrote:
Bofor wrote:
The point is on the other end to the handle.

Nope, both ends of the handle are blunt. The pointy parts are at 45° in each direction from the handle.

:-p

Who could even lift that thing, let alone throw it. It's supposed to be a light weapon, really? It probably weighs around 8lb.

That's just about my only complaint with pathfinder's art scheme; their weapons, especially the swords, are super heavy and unwieldy. That and the boob-plate of course.

Liberty's Edge

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I think it's a homage weapon to this movie: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndpV6qfQJVw Except the movie version is ten times better imo.

Otherwise as usually much fluff not supported by mechanics imo. It's not the wrost weapon. certainly not worth taking by me at least imo. Took a look at the Returning property because of this thread. Talk about missing the point by the devs. I would take it as a weapon property precisely so that I can move and attack. Not stand still.


Burnscar wrote:
Derklord wrote:
Bofor wrote:
The point is on the other end to the handle.

Nope, both ends of the handle are blunt. The pointy parts are at 45° in each direction from the handle.

:-p

Who could even lift that thing, let alone throw it. It's supposed to be a light weapon, really? It probably weighs around 8lb.

That's just about my only complaint with pathfinder's art scheme; their weapons, especially the swords, are super heavy and unwieldy. That and the boob-plate of course.

What, no hate for Amiri's bare midriff armor?


Atarlost wrote:
Burnscar wrote:
Derklord wrote:
Bofor wrote:
The point is on the other end to the handle.

Nope, both ends of the handle are blunt. The pointy parts are at 45° in each direction from the handle.

:-p

Who could even lift that thing, let alone throw it. It's supposed to be a light weapon, really? It probably weighs around 8lb.

That's just about my only complaint with pathfinder's art scheme; their weapons, especially the swords, are super heavy and unwieldy. That and the boob-plate of course.

What, no hate for Amiri's bare midriff armor?

Because Amiri is a raging berserker with little regard for her own safety?


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Honestly, boobplate riles me up more. You can look at the leathers and spikes and go "that's not armor, it's just a skimpy emo outfit," and then that's what that is - she primarily avoids being killed by virtue of her constitution modifier anyway. And besides, at least the armor parts look functional - none of it is making her actively worse at defending herself.

But boobplate is just stupid - it increases the area over which you'll get your ribcage caved in by being hit, which is the opposite of what you want out of armor; it should ablate force, not concentrate it on a smaller area. Boobplate is not unlike wearing twenty nails, all of them pointing towards the center of the chest, and hoping that no-one comes along with a hammer. It is deserving of scorn and derision.

Amiri's thing is just fashion. Peasants didn't wear armor into battle anyway.

Should she put on a breastplate, or a chainmail hauberk? Yeah, she should. But nothing she's wearing actively makes her more likely to die. You gotta cut the designers some slack - it's not like I want them to give their characters helmets or something. Although the cleric's helmet (and everything about her art except for the sword, actually, it's a tiny bit too heavy) is just perfect.

I've bigger problems with her sword than with her midriff - but even then "she's using a giant's blade" sits better with me than "Yeah no, what are you talking about? That's just how greatswords look," which is presumably the excuse for the warpriest art.

Liberty's Edge

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Starknives now have several interesting options (Desna's Shooting Star, Starry Grace, Startoss Style, et cetera) but these tend to be mutually exclusive...

Cha to attack/damage and Dex to attack/damage do not stack with each other or any other attack/damage stat

Hit one target with multiple 'points' of the starknife does not stack with bounce the starknife to hit multiple targets

et cetera.

Are there any really good synergistic combinations for starknives? Or just a lot more flexibility and options than they used to have?


CBDunkerson wrote:

Starknives now have several interesting options (Desna's Shooting Star, Starry Grace, Startoss Style, et cetera) but these tend to be mutually exclusive...

Cha to attack/damage and Dex to attack/damage do not stack with each other or any other attack/damage stat

Hit one target with multiple 'points' of the starknife does not stack with bounce the starknife to hit multiple targets

et cetera.

Are there any really good synergistic combinations for starknives? Or just a lot more flexibility and options than they used to have?

It allows you to focus solely on Charisma and maybe one or two other stats, dumping the rest in some cases, which is nice. I have a thread here with a Cleric 6/Oracle 1 build that I'm planning on using for Carrion Crown, but I've found my favorite combo to be Oracle 1/Medium X. With the second build, I put all of my points into CHA and CON, and then literally don't care about any other stat. Using the Lore Keeper and Sidestep Secret Oracle revelations, you get CHA to AC, Reflex, all knowledge skills, and those skills are now class skills. Through Noble Scion in there at level 1 and you also now have CHA-based initiative.


In principle, you could do a Swashbuckler with the Artful Dodge feat, and use charisma to qualify for both dexterity and intelligence prerequisites.


Here are the comparisons I've been able to make so far in terms of dagger vs starknife. I'm focusing specifically on those two because they have the most in common, and most class features/archetypes that work with one of them will work just fine with the other (like knife master rogues and flying blade swashbucklers).

In favor of Daggers:
* Cheaper: Daggers cost 2gp apiece, while starknives are 24gp each. Unless you're investing in masterwork or enchantments, you might be better off buying 11 daggers with the 24 gold.
* Better threat range: Daggers threaten a critical hit on a 19-20, which can be raised to 17-20 with keen or Improved Critical. You'll be critting more consistently with a dagger than with a starknife.
* More common proficiency: Almost every class is proficient with daggers, since most classes are proficient with all simple weapons and most of the ones that don't have that automatic proficiency are still proficient with daggers. Clerics and inquisitors of Desna don't have to worry about this since they get starknife proficiency for free, but other simple-only classes don't have that luxury.

In favor of Starknives:
* Better critical multiplier: Only critting on a natural 20, but you'll crit harder than you will with a dagger.
* Better throwing range: Starknives can be thrown twice as far as a dagger, allowing you to stay farther back from combat while attacking the enemy.
* Ranged combat support: This is the big one. Unlike daggers or any other thrown weapon, starknives have many feats to support their use as a thrown weapon. Starknives are also notably the only weapon (at least as far as I'm aware) that can use your Dexterity for damage rolls when you use it as a thrown weapon, thanks to the Starry Grace feat. All of the options that give you Dex to damage for daggers specifies that it only applies to melee attacks.


Deadmanwalking wrote:
Yep. I swear my next build is gonna do precisely this as a Lunar Oracle (Spirit Guide) abusing Lore Spirit for Wizard spells (which requires high ratings in all mental stats).

Before you go down that path you might want to read Arcane Enlightenment closer ...

Arcane Enlightenment wrote:
The shaman can add a number of spells from the sorcerer/wizard spell list equal to her Charisma modifier (minimum 1) to the list of shaman spells she can prepare.

Oracles are spontaneous casters w/ spells known not spells prepared. Nothing in the Spirit Guide archetype changes that.

Sovereign Court

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Just to head things off before we derail: that probably deserves its own thread. ^_^


I'd like to throw (pun intended) another point in favor of Starnkives:
Since they are a melee weapon you can add the Spell Storing enhancement to them. Delivering the spell also does not require a melee attack, it can be done with a thrown weapon. It creates some interesting options when bouncing that weapon around with the Startoss feats.

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