Witches... will they ever get some loving?


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Jon Brazer Enterprises

Ambrosia Slaad wrote:
Dale McCoy Jr wrote:

Inspired by this thread, I wrote a few witch hexes. What do you think?

Link

These look pretty neat. :)

Thank you.

Jon Brazer Enterprises

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Hey everyone.

I just posted a few Elemental Witch hexes. Enjoy.


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Dale McCoy Jr wrote:

Inspired by this thread, I wrote a few witch hexes. What do you think?

Link

That's a fine collection of hexes there.

Jon Brazer Enterprises

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It's Tuesday again and I've got a new batch of witch hexes. Today is all about the Light patron.

Jon Brazer Enterprises

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Are these good and helpful to witch fans? Should I continue this series?


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Dale McCoy Jr wrote:
Are these good and helpful to witch fans? Should I continue this series?

I'm enjoying them but, like a lot of others I fear, am limited to Paizo content in my game group.

I'd be curious to see your take on my personal favourite patron - trickery.

Jon Brazer Enterprises

Tsukiyo wrote:
I'd be curious to see your take on my personal favourite patron - trickery.

I bounced a few ideas around with the wife over the weekend for the trickery patron, but I don't have any ideas that are definitive yet. I'll keep working on that one though.

And like I always say, "Just because you are letting something from a Pathfinder Compatible company, doesn't mean you have to let everything in." Ask your GM about one ability, spell, feat, or in this case hex.

Sovereign Court

Derklord wrote:
@Cole Deschain: The word "witch" is closely assossiated with evil, something that really shows in and hampers the class. This basically comes from the Bible explicitly forbidding the practicing of all kinds of magic;

That actually comes from a bad translation and King James himself having an issue with witches - which didn't even exist in Biblical times.

Exodus 22:18 (what I'm assuming you're referencing) "Suffer not a witch to live" was, in the Hebrew, referring to a specific type of spell-caster who did curses etc. (some have argued that they actually used poisons) So - it's basically saying to execute magical murderers/assasins - which isn't all that crazy of a rule.

Edit: Depending upon your perspective of "witch" (especially long before modern Wiccans) it might not have been a bad translation - but it definitely wasn't originally meant to encompass all spell-casters.


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Pathfinder Companion, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Some cool hexes. Though I just wanted to point out that in the Engulfing Hexflame for the Elements patron, you wrote: "Once a creature has benefited from the immolation hex, it cannot benefit from it again for 24 hours." I'm guessing it had a name change at some point?

Either way, they're definitely neat!

Jon Brazer Enterprises

Luthorne wrote:

Some cool hexes. Though I just wanted to point out that in the Engulfing Hexflame for the Elements patron, you wrote: "Once a creature has benefited from the immolation hex, it cannot benefit from it again for 24 hours." I'm guessing it had a name change at some point?

Either way, they're definitely neat!

Good catch. Thanks. And yes it did.


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Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

The "Witches Bottle" Hex from heroes of the wild allows you to make a potion of your Hexes.


Patron hexes for Deception and Trickery would probably overlap some. Honestly I'm not sure exactly what their distinction is supposed to be.


DHAnubis wrote:
Ssalarn wrote:

Players don't love witches, yo.

In all seriousness, it does seem to be one of the more underserved classes in Pathfinder. I think there's some solid 3pp options for expanding witches though; if I recall correctly, Flying Pincushion Games has a Witch entry in their "Into the Breach" product line that has some flavorful and well-balanced options.

The archetype I remember most vividly from that book did not get spells till either 4th or 5th level (then proceeded normally), but got an ability similar to a rage that also gave them Eidolon evolutions while the raged. I've always wanted to try that one out. Because being a raging hex monster sounds lovely.

Thanks; that one's mine. You didn't get spells until 5th level but instead got a vengeance incarnate alternate form (which used rage and eidolon mechanics) that was meant to make you more of a melee character. You also got a retributive curse effect later on, letting you basically apply bad effects to characters that hit you. It remains one of my favorites.

That said, I love witches, in general. As a player who tends to hoard my resources (i.e. spells), I love having the hexes to play with. It's one of my favorite classes.


I would also like to see more Witch-themed archetypes of other classes. Starting with Hex Rager (Bloodrager) . . . .

Sovereign Court

I just wish that the Havoker had been viable. Very cool concept - but poor execution. It felt like the designer didn't really get that kinetic blast only worked due to all of the kinetiscist's other moving parts.

If they'd given the Havoker Gather Power and allowed spell levels to be sacrificed for the remaining Burn cost rather than the infusion's spell level equivalent it would have viable. (still weaker than a witch with hexes - but viable)


The problem is that "Witch-themed" means Hexes, and right now the hexes tend to be kinda all-or-nothing. I mean, which hexes would you want to have on a bloodrager? Your Charisma won't be high enough for hexes that allow a save, and there aren't many others. Sure, Flight would be a given, but apart from that?


Almost anything that's useful for a Wizard will be handy for the non-Hex aspects of a Witch.


Derklord wrote:
The problem is that "Witch-themed" means Hexes, and right now the hexes tend to be kinda all-or-nothing. I mean, which hexes would you want to have on a bloodrager? Your Charisma won't be high enough for hexes that allow a save, and there aren't many others. Sure, Flight would be a given, but apart from that?

Not really any worse than what happens to Bloodrager spells.

Jon Brazer Enterprises

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Today we share with you hexes from the Agility patron. Read all about them at JonBrazer.com.

Question: would you like the patrons defined more? Should they have names, personalities, goals, ...? Should they be more than vague nebulous forces? Should they be as detailed as deities, even if they lack the restrictions the religious classes (cleric, paladin, inquisitor, warpriest) have?


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I love witches, and wrote on a couple of books for Rogue Genius Games (Talented Witch and More Witch Talents) greatly expanding and compiling their available options. I'm especially proud of More Witch Talents, which Endzeitgeist was kind enough to give his highest possible praise.


Dale McCoy Jr wrote:

Today we share with you hexes from the Agility patron. Read all about them at JonBrazer.com.

Question: would you like the patrons defined more? Should they have names, personalities, goals, ...? Should they be more than vague nebulous forces? Should they be as detailed as deities, even if they lack the restrictions the religious classes (cleric, paladin, inquisitor, warpriest) have?

Not really looking to have Witches be an arcane form of clerics.. On the other hand having some patrons BE dieties, such as Hecate being revered as a patron of witchcraft.. I believe that Paizo made things nebulous so that home GMs had the option to develop them for their own campaign instead of nailing them down with rules dogma.


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Pathfinder Companion, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I personally do like patrons fleshed out more, but think that's mostly up to the player to work out with their GM and come up with something that's interesting and compelling. That said, I definitely think a list of possible patrons for each patron theme with some cool hooks would be nice just for inspiration, though it's worth noting that Necromancers of the Northwest did a similar concept with this product.


I like witches. I played one in a Serpent AP and she was a blast to play. She was able to blind one of the baddies. I liked the hexes.


Dale McCoy Jr wrote:

Today we share with you hexes from the Agility patron. Read all about them at JonBrazer.com.

Question: would you like the patrons defined more? Should they have names, personalities, goals, ...? Should they be more than vague nebulous forces? Should they be as detailed as deities, even if they lack the restrictions the religious classes (cleric, paladin, inquisitor, warpriest) have?

The difference between Patrons to Witches and Deities for divine casters to me is that the Deities are granting you a bit of their power in the form of spells, whereas the Patrons are just an extraordinary tutor that teaches ways to use your own power. The different themes of patrons aren't necessarily single individuals; there can be different entities that work as agility patrons, and the same entity can potentially serve as a different type of patron to different individual witches (for example, my Cartomancer witch's patron spirit is the spirit of the Harrow decks, which is a Deception patron to her, but could easily be something else)


I like the witch class a lot. In a number of ways I like it more than wizard actually, but I will admit, they could use a little love.

1. give them magic missile. I'm of the opinion that all arcane casters should have it.

2. Give them more spells. I'm not asking for fireball, but some lower level basic spells like color spray, to some of the spells that come from books like inner sea magic and magic tactics toolbox. They get some spells, but there are some that are just weird spells that mostly get ignored on the wizard/sorcerer list that would get some good usage on the witch list.

3. Drop cone of cold back down to the same level it is for wizard.

4. Give them more weapon proficiency. Not a huge buff since most witches aren't melee, but a nice bonus for witch would be the ability to use more exotic weapons that the wizard for when they are forced into melee. Scythe instead of quarterstaff, kukri instead of dagger, bolas or boomerang instead of crossbow. Maybe add the net or whip.

EDIT: I'm also a big fan of the blood hexs from the Magic Tactics Toolbox. They spice up the witch a lot for me. I wish there were some major hex and grand hex versions.

Jon Brazer Enterprises

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Tsukiyo wrote:
I'd be curious to see your take on my personal favourite patron - trickery.

2 written, 1 to go. (plus editing)

Edit: make that 3 written. (editing still needed)


Mark_Twain007 wrote:

1. give them magic missile. I'm of the opinion that all arcane casters should have it.

EDIT: I'm also a big fan of the blood hexs from the Magic Tactics Toolbox. They spice up the witch a lot for me. I wish there were some major hex and grand hex versions.

I see a connection here. Still, I'm kinda surprised anyone likes the blood hexes - I consider them ridiculously underpowered. Abeyance would be good if not for the "metal weapon" part, and everything else has such a minuscule effect...

Edit: It's a shame they only work (as actual hexes) for Witches and Shamans, and not for Hexcrafter Magi.


Derklord wrote:
Mark_Twain007 wrote:

1. give them magic missile. I'm of the opinion that all arcane casters should have it.

EDIT: I'm also a big fan of the blood hexs from the Magic Tactics Toolbox. They spice up the witch a lot for me. I wish there were some major hex and grand hex versions.

I see a connection here. Still, I'm kinda surprised anyone likes the blood hexes - I consider them ridiculously underpowered. Abeyance would be good if not for the "metal weapon" part, and everything else has such a minuscule effect...

I am saddened by the metal weapon portion of that one(which would be a little better if witches could use any good metal weapons, hint hint number 4). The fact that there aren't that many good ones is why I would like some major and grand hex versions, but really I'm just excited about the options. I'm not too concerned with really giving the witch a whole lot more super powerful options, as mentioned previously in the thread, there are some very powerful witch builds.

To me part of being the witch is doing the unexpected. The wizard can do this, but he spends a lot of time and effort making sure he/she has spells like fireball, haste, mage armor, ect. Meanwhile the witch is taking Earsend, irregular size, and strangling hair.


Mark_Twain007 wrote:
I am saddened by the metal weapon portion of that one(which would be a little better if witches could use any good metal weapons, hint hint number 4).

If only there was an archetype that would make the Witch not squishy... oh wait, they completely changed that one. There is no way I'm going to walk into melee with d6HD and only Mage Armor, and nothing like Blur, Mirror Image, Greater Invisibility, or Displacement - no matter my weapon proficiency.

Mark_Twain007 wrote:
Meanwhile the witch is taking Earsend, irregular size, and strangling hair.

I'm not! :-p

I don't think blood hexes can be good, because we already have the upper limit in save-or-suck hexes (Slumber and Ice Tomb). What I'd like to see are non-offensive hexes that don't require Crackle abuse to work.


Charon's Little Helper wrote:
Derklord wrote:
@Cole Deschain: The word "witch" is closely assossiated with evil, something that really shows in and hampers the class. This basically comes from the Bible explicitly forbidding the practicing of all kinds of magic;

That actually comes from a bad translation and King James himself having an issue with witches - which didn't even exist in Biblical times.

Exodus 22:18 (what I'm assuming you're referencing) "Suffer not a witch to live" was, in the Hebrew, referring to a specific type of spell-caster who did curses etc. (some have argued that they actually used poisons) So - it's basically saying to execute magical murderers/assasins - which isn't all that crazy of a rule.

Edit: Depending upon your perspective of "witch" (especially long before modern Wiccans) it might not have been a bad translation - but it definitely wasn't originally meant to encompass all spell-casters.

If that's what the Hebrew word really meant at the time then it's the Wiccans who made the bad translation because that's exactly what the term traditionally means in English. It's not like we have lots of non-biblical Hebrew or Aramaic texts as old as the Torah and the term isn't used in any way that gives context until 1st Samuel where it's used of a medium.

If you think about it from a Judeo-Christian perspective that makes sense. Human magic is fake and Satan is limited (see Job) so curses don't actually do anything; but mediums give false comfort, defraud widows and orphans, and falsify evidence that there is an Eternity other than that which God created. Curse-mongers just defraud people who hire curses and unlike mediums the nature of their product is not such that they must know that they're frauds. They're just really ineffective mercenaries.

Jon Brazer Enterprises

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Some witches draw their power from death itself. Here are hexes unique to such witches.

Jon Brazer Enterprises

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In keeping with our halloween-theme, we present to you patron hexes for the trickery witch. Just don't expect any candy.


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Quote:
Witches... will they ever get some loving?

Isn't that what the Charm hex and Valentine's Day (or maybe Halloween) is for...?

*badum-tish*

I-... I'll see myself out.


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Dale McCoy Jr wrote:
In keeping with our halloween-theme, we present to you patron hexes for the trickery witch. Just don't expect any candy.

Cool. Nice work. I'll try and get GM approval to retrain a hex into the Confusing Friends and Foes hex and perhaps try and take Covered in Horrors as my 14th level Major Hex - currently only 11th but want Ice Tomb at 12th.

Anyway, jolly good stuff.


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Dale McCoy Jr wrote:
In keeping with our halloween-theme, we present to you patron hexes for the trickery witch. Just don't expect any candy.

I so hope you collect these into a PDF when you've got the time. I know I would buy it.


Shaman make better witches.
What they really lack, is a quicken hex feat for action economy


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Right now, the patrons have no flavor to me; they're just a choice of a spell list. Someone had suggested giving each patron things unique to that particular patron, an associated class skill, a pool of abilities like the oracle gets with their mystery, etc.

I think the hexes written by Dale McCoy are a wonderful start to that. Maybe there could be something about the bargain the witch makes with the patron. These are not (usually) divine beings; patrons are powerful parties who are helping the witch out for their own reasons, and they have their own agendas and plans that they are trying to further.

Jon Brazer Enterprises

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Eric Hinkle wrote:
Dale McCoy Jr wrote:
In keeping with our halloween-theme, we present to you patron hexes for the trickery witch. Just don't expect any candy.
I so hope you collect these into a PDF when you've got the time. I know I would buy it.

Oh definitely. Just as soon as I finish writing hexes for all the patrons.


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Move over Grindr and Tinder, the hot new dating app is Familiar, the only one devoted to the romantic lives of witches.

Dark Archive

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Hubaris wrote:
Saves or dies have been done to death, but where are Hexes that allow shadows to grapple someone? A hex that causes a person to randomly trip and fall over? How about a hex that forces someone to forget certain things with a kiss or steal their voice? Hexes that allow someone to 'save' an action and use it later (or alternatively delaying something from happening)? What about a hex that allows the Witch to force someone to stutter on spells and fail the cast?

Hexes that steal stuff, like a target's voice (rendering them unable to voice spells), or sight (blinding them), or youth (giving them age penalties to attributes, and taking them away from the witch), etc. could be fun.

Quote:

Then 'good' aligned options can even include hexes that create protective energy bubbles, hexes that make one immune or resistant to a specific ailment (such as diseases, sleep effects, paralysis, etc) for a duration, hexes that allow a witch to use balms and heal people over time, hexes that allow one to summon a minor creature (maybe a la Lesser Planar Binding) to do menial non-combat tasks, a hex thats the reverse of Evil Eye which buffs skills, AC, attack rolls or saves, or even ones that allow you to Commune, a hex to preserve someone from death with a quick Breath of Life (at a cost), or even a hex that allows you to animate small items to clean the house or whatnot.

There is so much design space and I feel its boxed in too much with the pretense of power.

More healing / buffing options for good witches would definitely be cool.

Jon Brazer Enterprises

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AllThatJazz wrote:
These are not (usually) divine beings; patrons are powerful parties who are helping the witch out for their own reasons, and they have their own agendas and plans that they are trying to further.

I considered doing this myself. I've talked with a number of witch fans and this (from what I have observed) is a minority view in them. But it was the words of my wife that convinced me that I should not do this. She said that witches communed with the raw forces of nature, the woods, fire, the cycle of life and death, etc. There is no person or personality to the force itself, but that same force gives (or better, reveals) power to those that are apart of it. Or at least that is our best understanding since neither of us are Wiccan.

If there is a Wiccan on the boards and I got it wrong, please feel free to correct me.


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Tacticslion wrote:
Quote:
Witches... will they ever get some loving?
Isn't that what the Charm hex and Valentine's Day (or maybe Halloween) is for...?

No need for a hex, they just need to dress like this!

Set wrote:
Hexes that steal stuff, like a target's voice (rendering them unable to voice spells)

Please tell me the witch gets to use the target's voice for the duration! I'm not asking much, just a token really, a trifle. What I want from you is... your voice!

Set wrote:
More healing / buffing options for good witches would definitely be cool.

Yes, the only healing is crap because 1/day just doesn't cut it, and the only real buff requires massive crackle abuse.

@Dale: I think you focus a bit too much on save-or-suck hexes. The witch's spell list has the same fault, but every time I see "mind affecting, will negates" I think "I could use that, or slumber. Slumber it is!".

Also, "The duration of this hex can be extended with the cackle hex." makes absolutely no sense on a hex that lasts more then Int mod. I know Agony has it, but that makes no sense, either.

Sovereign Court

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Dale McCoy Jr wrote:
If there is a Wiccan on the boards and I got it wrong, please feel free to correct me.

Considering that Wiccan was started in 1954, its impact upon the traditional "witch" upon which the class is based is minimal at most. (Though Wiccan was somewhat based upon bits and pieces of pagan stuff - it's unclear how much what we know about that was actually ever done and how much was propaganda/satire/artistic license/etc. of one kind or another.)

Jon Brazer Enterprises

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For a nice Halloween grossout, we bring you Endurance Patron Hexes.

Jon Brazer Enterprises

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Recently we finished writing the last of the Patron Hexes. So next week, we will be releasing the Book of Magic: Patron Hexes. Check out the cover as well as the Ancestor Patron Hexes.

Jon Brazer Enterprises

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Check it out!


Has anyone tried out the Invoker Witch archetype?

I'm trying one out right now, and it's pretty nifty.


Dale McCoy Jr wrote:
For a nice Halloween grossout, we bring you Endurance Patron Hexes.

I play an Endurance scarred witch (grandfathered in, as the campaign started before they erratad that away) in Way of the Wicked. Recently picked it back up again after a hiatus. I kind of got lazy and stopped picking feats at 5th level (now at 10th) and am behind on hexes too because there aren't many I want, so I like your stuff.

The fatigue-related hex is neat, if a bit circumstantial. I'd consider picking it. The wartskin hex seems fine for some witches, although not in line with my witch's flavor. The weaken hex is so much worse than Evil Eye that I can't imagine taking it - Evil Eye does significantly worse things to a foe who passes their save than Weaken does to one who fails it. I think that last one could use a review.


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Dale McCoy Jr wrote:
AllThatJazz wrote:
These are not (usually) divine beings; patrons are powerful parties who are helping the witch out for their own reasons, and they have their own agendas and plans that they are trying to further.

I considered doing this myself. I've talked with a number of witch fans and this (from what I have observed) is a minority view in them. But it was the words of my wife that convinced me that I should not do this. She said that witches communed with the raw forces of nature, the woods, fire, the cycle of life and death, etc. There is no person or personality to the force itself, but that same force gives (or better, reveals) power to those that are apart of it. Or at least that is our best understanding since neither of us are Wiccan.

If there is a Wiccan on the boards and I got it wrong, please feel free to correct me.

Wicca has relatively little to do with the sources Paizo seems to be drawing for the design of this class.


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Update: Mirror Witch in the Villain Codex if you want to be able to talk to a mirror (familiar replacement) and consult with it for various divinations!

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