Armored coat - Metal armor?


Rules Questions


I'm not sure how much of an armor needs to be metal for it to count as 'metal armor'. For purposes of a Metal Oracle's Armor Mastery revelation, is it metal? The description says it's leather with metal plates, so it seems a little ambiguous.


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Yes, it's Metal.

The counter-argument to the whole "Metal Oracle" is the Druid class' restrictions for armor, or even things like Heat/Chill Metal, and Shocking Grasp. If it has metal of any kind on it, then it's forbidden for said Druid to use, and is eligible targets for those spells.

Unless it makes a mention of "Made of mostly metal" or "The majority of the armor must be made of metal," then I don't see why you should treat it any different.


Thanks.


Quote:
This sturdy leather coat is reinforced with metal plates sewn into the lining.

That said, it only weighs 33% more than leather armor, so I would personally say it is probably NOT "mostly metal" for things relevant to that phrase (like making it out of mithral).

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Also, it's good to know if it can be Darkleaf, Mithral, or Dragonhide.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Zhayne wrote:
I'm not sure how much of an armor needs to be metal for it to count as 'metal armor'. For purposes of a Metal Oracle's Armor Mastery revelation, is it metal? The description says it's leather with metal plates, so it seems a little ambiguous.
PRD wrote:


Armor Mastery (Ex): You become more maneuverable while wearing armor. You can move at your normal speed in medium armor that is made of metal. This does not grant proficiency in armor. At 5th level, whenever you are wearing metal armor, you reduce the armor check penalty by 1 (to a minimum of 0) and increase the maximum Dexterity bonus allowed by your armor by 1. At 10th level, and again at 15th level, these bonuses increase by 1.

That seem to require a metal based armor, not a souped up leather armor with a bit of metal.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

So, a Darkleaf Cloth, Angelskin, Eel Hide, or Griffon Mane Armored Coat is possible?

Some of those are PFS legal materials, so I would like to know which ones are legal for an Armored Coat.


I didn't bother reading through rules text for ALL of them, but darkleaf cloth does appear to say "primarily leather" so yes, if something is made out of both leather and metal, the GM chooses which is the majority material, and you can use that set of special materials or the other.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Yeah, but with PFS, the DM is constantly changing.


I lean towards 'which bit is protecting you more?' for this sort of question -- after all, leather or hide armour might have metal fasteners, but you're not relying on a buckle to stop attacks. In this case, I'd lean more towards the armoured coat being metal armour -- the way its description is written, it sounds about like taking a modern leather longcoat and slipping some armour panels in (although nowadays we'd use other materials).

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

Well there's a novel chronicle sheet, City of the Fallen Sky, that has a +1 adamantine armored coat of fire resistance. That seems to point to it being 'metal enough'

Would be funny if it counted as both though. How would an adamantine/darkleave armored coat wear? ;-)

<-- now thinking my new archaeologist will be wearing a mithral armored coat ASAP, so he is in a 'basassed longcoat' ;-)


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Dye it black, put some spikes on it, and get an epaulette that looks like a skull. Splash it with the blood of your foe and it'll be metal.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

blackbloodtroll wrote:

So, a Darkleaf Cloth, Angelskin, Eel Hide, or Griffon Mane Armored Coat is possible?

Some of those are PFS legal materials, so I would like to know which ones are legal for an Armored Coat.

Much of that will have table variance, and PFS is a bad fit for things subject to table variance.


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

I've always thought of the armored coat as being considered metal for this kind of stuff.


Diego Rossi wrote:
Zhayne wrote:
I'm not sure how much of an armor needs to be metal for it to count as 'metal armor'. For purposes of a Metal Oracle's Armor Mastery revelation, is it metal? The description says it's leather with metal plates, so it seems a little ambiguous.
PRD wrote:


Armor Mastery (Ex): You become more maneuverable while wearing armor. You can move at your normal speed in medium armor that is made of metal. This does not grant proficiency in armor. At 5th level, whenever you are wearing metal armor, you reduce the armor check penalty by 1 (to a minimum of 0) and increase the maximum Dexterity bonus allowed by your armor by 1. At 10th level, and again at 15th level, these bonuses increase by 1.

That seem to require a metal based armor, not a souped up leather armor with a bit of metal.

Majority doesn't really matter. If metal is involved in its creation and protection value then yes, it is made of metal. It doesn't matter if there are other materials involved. By that logic then, Druids can wear stuff like Studded Leather armor, except we all know they can't.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:
Zhayne wrote:
I'm not sure how much of an armor needs to be metal for it to count as 'metal armor'. For purposes of a Metal Oracle's Armor Mastery revelation, is it metal? The description says it's leather with metal plates, so it seems a little ambiguous.
PRD wrote:


Armor Mastery (Ex): You become more maneuverable while wearing armor. You can move at your normal speed in medium armor that is made of metal. This does not grant proficiency in armor. At 5th level, whenever you are wearing metal armor, you reduce the armor check penalty by 1 (to a minimum of 0) and increase the maximum Dexterity bonus allowed by your armor by 1. At 10th level, and again at 15th level, these bonuses increase by 1.

That seem to require a metal based armor, not a souped up leather armor with a bit of metal.

Majority doesn't really matter. If metal is involved in its creation and protection value then yes, it is made of metal. It doesn't matter if there are other materials involved. By that logic then, Druids can wear stuff like Studded Leather armor, except we all know they can't.

It matter for special materials. If a weapon is mostly made of wood, like a spear, adding a mithail spearpoint will not help with the weapon weight, but it will make the striking part mithral.

Same thing when you replace the armored coat plates with mitharal.
To cite the relevant rule:
"Items not primarily of metal are not meaningfully affected by being partially made of mithral."

Reading the Metal Oracle revelation I think that it require a "armor primarily made of metal", but that, is my opinion. The text of the rule can be interpreted both ways.

The druid limitation include armor with even a small part of them made of metal, as it prohibit studded leather, an armor that is primarily made of leather.


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Wouldn't a mithral tipped spear still bypass DR/silver though?

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Ravingdork wrote:
Wouldn't a mithral tipped spear still bypass DR/silver though?

From my point of view? Sure, what matter for that is the striking part. It simply will not weight 1/2 of the normal weight as it is mostly made of wood.


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Quote:
Majority doesn't really matter.

Yes it does because of text like:

Quote:
Items not primarily of metal are not meaningfully affected by being partially made of mithral.

And darkleaf also says must be primarily hide/leather, etc. Majority determines what things you can substitute.

Quote:
Wouldn't a mithral tipped spear still bypass DR/silver though?

Not seemingly by RAW, no. It's not meaningfully affected at all unless it's primarily made out of metal. Unless your GM interprets a spear to be "primarily made out of metal", or you're talking about a big metal spear (not sure if the existence of that would be strictly RAW, even though it's obviously possible to construct realistically)


It's interesting that Adamantine and Cold Iron use an arrow (part metal and part wood) as examples of weapons that can be made of them, while Mithral uses the example of a longsword (probably all metal) as its example.


blackbloodtroll wrote:
Yeah, but with PFS, the DM is constantly changing.

Not an issue for me, for the record.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Gisher wrote:
It's interesting that Adamantine and Cold Iron use an arrow (part metal and part wood) as examples of weapons that can be made of them, while Mithral uses the example of a longsword (probably all metal) as its example.

They fall in the same category of the spear. The striking part is made of metal, so it count against DR, but the special material don't give it other benefits.

From Ultimate equipment:

PRD wrote:

Special Materials

Weapons and armor can be crafted using materials that have innate special properties. If you make a suit of armor or a weapon out of more than one special material, you get the benefit of only the most prevalent material. However, you can build a double weapon with each head made of a different special material.


Where are people getting this "striking surface matters in a special way" stuff from?

Obviously that's how real life works, but is that in the rules?


Crimeo wrote:

Where are people getting this "striking surface matters in a special way" stuff from?

Obviously that's how real life works, but is that in the rules?

In the rules, no.

In the FAQ, yes. It's not directly related to it, but if it's crafted, it counts as being Adamantine for overcoming DR and Hardness. But it doesn't retain Adamantine's hardness if it's crafted in a certain manner.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Companion Subscriber
Zhayne wrote:
blackbloodtroll wrote:
Yeah, but with PFS, the DM is constantly changing.
Not an issue for me, for the record.

For the most, that's my experience too.

I still go out of my way to avoid things with high table variance.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

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I pretty much avoid everything with high table variance also. I'll find something with less differences of opinions on how the rules work instead.


Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Crimeo wrote:

Where are people getting this "striking surface matters in a special way" stuff from?

Obviously that's how real life works, but is that in the rules?

In the rules, no.

In the FAQ, yes. It's not directly related to it, but if it's crafted, it counts as being Adamantine for overcoming DR and Hardness. But it doesn't retain Adamantine's hardness if it's crafted in a certain manner.

That FAQ does not establish that you are allowed to make a weapon out of adamantine if it is not primarily made out of metal.

It only establishes that a weapon with an adamantine head and a wooden haft (which presumably still would have to have been a weapon made primarily out of metal to have had the option of making it adamantine) still deals damage as per adamantine's properties.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

I can no longer read this thread, without constantly hearing this song.

Grand Lodge

Sorry for the thread necro, but I recently stumbled upon a named Mithral armoured coat, which would seem to definitively answer how to treat an armoured coat (primarily metal, metal special materials).

Lifecollar Coat


Ravingdork wrote:
Wouldn't a mithral tipped spear still bypass DR/silver though?

Since when does mithral count as silver for such purposes?

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Klorox wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
Wouldn't a mithral tipped spear still bypass DR/silver though?
Since when does mithral count as silver for such purposes?

Since Pathfinder.

They made Mithril useful for weapons rather than just being fancy.


Dangit, I'm so used to 3.5 that I've become adept at missing key passages when they are at variance with it. I'd grown used to mithral being strictly armor material.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Yeah, that happens a lot :3


armoured coat or am I mistaken?


"This sturdy leather coat is reinforced with metal plates sewn into the lining."

I think more of a great coat or a long duster with metal sewn inside...
A discrete version of armour perhaps, good for social occasions.


blackbloodtroll wrote:
Also, it's good to know if it can be Darkleaf, Mithral, or Dragonhide.

No. it can't. because it's significant parts that distinguish it as it's type of armor ARE metal enough to disqualify as hide, but not enough to make it PRIMARILY metal.


Gisher wrote:
It's interesting that Adamantine and Cold Iron use an arrow (part metal and part wood) as examples of weapons that can be made of them, while Mithral uses the example of a longsword (probably all metal) as its example.

That's because it's the head that does the damage for the arrow, whereas armor isn't just all about one small part of it.


Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
blackbloodtroll wrote:
Also, it's good to know if it can be Darkleaf, Mithral, or Dragonhide.
No. it can't. because it's significant parts that distinguish it as it's type of armor ARE metal enough to disqualify as hide, but not enough to make it PRIMARILY metal.

That makes no sense.

It must be made primarily of one material, in which case that would be the material that can be made special and benefit from being "primarily made" out of said material.

If you're going to argue that it's neither primary, nor secondary, inbetween two material types, then it's a split between the multiple materials involved, and in that case, you can use any special material that the ones involved can be replaced with, but if you try to use more than one special material, only one special material's benefit functions at any given time (probably determined upon being crafted).

The only exception to that sort of rule are Double Weapons, which state you can make each head out of different materials, and those materials' benefits apply when making attacks with the respective head.


blackbloodtroll wrote:
Yeah, but with PFS, the DM is constantly changing.

Exactly.

Saying DM discretion is of no help in PFS, where you can have a new GM at every table.


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Didn't the GameMastery Guide (that obscure core rulebook that nobody bothers to look at any more) establish that all of these armors with a little bit of metal in them (for example, studded leather) have enough metal in them that they can meaningfully be made of mithral?


Did it?

I've not opened my Gamemastery Guide in years :P


I don't even have one, but it may be becaus I DM so seldom.


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I had to decide a month ago whether to allow a mithral armored coat, and mithral is a special material with the "primarily of metal" clause. (My GMPC made herself an armored coat and she started a fashion trend throughout the party.) I found this old thread, but it did not have a definitive answer on whether an armored coat was primarily made of metal.

Crimeo wrote:
That said, it only weighs 33% more than leather armor, so I would personally say it is probably NOT "mostly metal" for things relevant to that phrase (like making it out of mithral).

Leather armor is a full suit and an armored coat is a coat. Hide armor weighs 25 lbs., yet a hide shirt weighs 18 lbs. Chainmail weighs 40 lbs., yet a chain shirt weighs 25 lbs. Leather armor weighs 15 lbs., so by the same ratio a leather coat would weigh 10 lbs. An armored coat weighs 20 lbs, so that makes it half metal by weight.

On the other hand, a leather coat would have give a +1 armor bonus, and an armored coat has a +4 armor bonus. Most of the bonus must come from the metal. The leather armors, such as leather and studded leather, are light armors. The metal armors, except for a chain shirt and armored kilt, are medium or heavy. The armored coat is medium armor. Apparently, the metal made it medium.

Hence, I ruled for my table that replacing the steel with mithral would have the usual cost and effect of making armor out of mithral.


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it's a leather coat not a leather waistoat/vest . I know that the earlier reference to a historical coat of plates would push that way, but I think that the PF armored coat is more of a metal lined duster style of coat. so a fully leather version would likely be a +2 AC, just like leather armor. so half the weight and half the amor come from the metal plating, I still agree that there is enough metal that making one of mithral would affect it... but, it is one of these rare armors where there is also enough leather that using, say, dragonhide, would also work.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Zedorland wrote:

Sorry for the thread necro, but I recently stumbled upon a named Mithral armoured coat, which would seem to definitively answer how to treat an armoured coat (primarily metal, metal special materials).

Lifecollar Coat

While that is interesting and could provide the required evidence, but things like Force Tower which is a mithril tower shield and Tower Shields must be wooden. So it could be a special "break the rules" item. There are also weapons with weapon properties that can't be used together in several things.


The armored coat is a brigandine that opens at the front so it can be donned without assistance. It's basically a breastplate in overlapping pieces held together by rivetting each piece to a canvas outer layer. Except someone with no clue about armor construction wrote leather because he couldn't grasp the concept of hard wearing fabric being able to support that much metal.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Atarlost wrote:
The armored coat is a brigandine that opens at the front so it can be donned without assistance. It's basically a breastplate in overlapping pieces held together by rivetting each piece to a canvas outer layer. Except someone with no clue about armor construction wrote leather because he couldn't grasp the concept of hard wearing fabric being able to support that much metal.

Uh, dood.

Pathfinder Armored Coat wrote:
This sturdy leather coat is reinforced with metal plates sewn into the lining.
Wikipedia wrote:
A brigandine is a form of body armour from the Middle Ages. It is a cloth garment, generally canvas or leather, lined with small oblong steel plates riveted to the fabric.

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