Versatility is a Human Virtue

Hooray for human fighters!!!
It's nice how the feats show an ability humans have to adapt and learn that separates them from the rest of the world.
I look forward to the "alternate class reward"s in this book

On that note ....
Using "Fast Learner" can you only choose the skill and hit point or can you choose the hit point and the "alternate class reward"?
Also can you just choose to get 2 hit points? it's most likely no but I thought I'd ask.

Oh yeah and 1st

Those are some sweet feats for hooman fighters...hope some other classes get some love too.

I love Fast Learner.

Neat stuff. The additional versatility from these feats opens up really interesting areas, both in terms of character creation and future feat design. Although, Critical Versatility kind of tweaks my "gamist vs simulationist" sensibilities. Why would a human only be able to do this once a day? It isn't like you can drill for an hour during a fight to switch from one feat to another. Might as well save a line and let them do it whenever they want.

The wording of the benefit section of Fast Learner needs some editing. It is unclear as to whether, if you choose to take an alternate class reward, you also get either a hit point or skill point, or whether choosing the alternate class reward means you do not also get to choose a hit point or skill point. Better to fix it now than to wait for errata.

does fast learner act retroactively? (I guess and hope so, because nearly everything in PF does, but it's not very clear)
I love all those feats, but I sense some power creep coming this way (perhaps I'm just a afraid of change and I should go play my non-nina rogue).

Fast Learner is in awesome feat, too bad the other ones are fighter only feats.

Fast Learner is awesome.

Fast Learner is awesome.

Toughness somehow seems less of a go-to when you roll low for hp now...

Wow, as a human sorcerer fast learner is like getting to take Toughness twice and still keep your extra spell known!

Gorbacz wrote:

Fast Learner is awesome.

Toughness somehow seems less of a go-to when you roll low for hp now...

They stack, something Human Barbarians gotta love...

Those are some really nice feats. I am also a big fan of Fast Learner.

Fast Learner is in awesome feat, too bad the other ones are fighter only feats.

I am sure we will see feats for all classes for each race.

Fast Learner seems to be EITHER +1 HP and +1 skill point per level OR the alternate favored class bonus.

I can't imagine it being "+1 HP, +1 Skill, Favored class bonus. Pick 2."

I don't believe anyone was thinking differently. The description is pretty clear you don't get both.

Fast Learner seems to be EITHER +1 HP and +1 skill point per level OR the alternate favored class bonus.

I can't imagine it being "+1 HP, +1 Skill, Favored class bonus. Pick 2."

I agree that this is most likely the intended rule, but they really could word it better. Such as:

"When you gain a level in a favored class, you gain both +1 hit point and +1 skill rank instead of choosing either one or the other. If you choose an alternate class reward, you do not get any benefit from this feat for that level."

So much love for Humans. I hope Gnomes get something equally awesome, and Dwarves get some fun stuff as well.

Cheapy wrote:

Fast Learner seems to be EITHER +1 HP and +1 skill point per level OR the alternate favored class bonus.

I can't imagine it being "+1 HP, +1 Skill, Favored class bonus. Pick 2."

I agree that this is most likely the intended rule, but they really could word it better. Such as:

"When you gain a level in a favored class, you gain both +1 hit point and +1 skill rank instead of choosing either one or the other. If you choose an alternate class reward, you do not get any benefit from this feat for that level."

Yea, all those "or"s make it weird.

When you gain a level in a favored class, you gain [both +1 hit point and +1 skill rank instead of choosing either one or the other benefit] or [you can choose an alternate class reward.]

I don't believe anyone was thinking differently. The description is pretty clear you don't get both.

I was responding to Galnorag.

Martial Versatility is unimpressive to me. In order for it to be better than just taking Weapon Focus again, you'd need to routinely use three or more different weapons from the same weapon group.

Who does that?

Martial Versatility is unimpressive to me. In order for it to be better than just taking Weapon Focus again, you'd need to routinely use three or more different weapons from the same weapon group.

Who does that?

You can use it for ANY one combat feat - which means if you take weapon focus greatsword and work your way all the way through a feat chain requiring weapon focus to get into, and then you find a karking sweet Falchion, you can pick any one of those combat feats to apply to the falchion - not just weapon focus. So you could bypass a lot of pre-req feats if you like.

Hobbun wrote:

I don't believe anyone was thinking differently. The description is pretty clear you don't get both.

I was responding to Galnorag.

Ah yes, I see what you mean. But I agree with you, you don’t get both.

More important Question regarding fast learner. Toughness is Retroactive now, so is getting Skill Points from Increased Int. Are the Bonuses from Fast Learner Retroactive?

More important Question regarding fast learner. Toughness is Retroactive now, so is getting Skill Points from Increased Int. Are the Bonuses from Fast Learner Retroactive?

This is a good question. It certainly should be, but the wording doesn't make that clear.

Very definitely a Feat in need of wording clarification (though awesome).

Dwarfs don't get any new rules, feats, or archetypes. It's just 2-4 pages full of ale recipes.

Dwarfs don't get any new rules, feats, or archetypes. It's just 2-4 pages full of ale recipes.

And a sidebar with different types of stone and their dwarven nicknames.

Do'Gat Xarget wrote:

Dwarfs don't get any new rules, feats, or archetypes. It's just 2-4 pages full of ale recipes.

And a sidebar with different types of stone and their dwarven nicknames.

And Don't forget the Beard care tips!

Hmmm... some of this looks mighty familiar.

*thumbs up*

I wish Martial Versatility would work with 2 weapons of your choosing, but it still a step in the right direction. I will probably houserule it to work that way.

I will also probably drop Martial Mastery down to level 13, and drop the human prereqs for both of them, but that depends on what the other races get also.

Mabven the OP healer wrote:

Cheapy wrote:

Fast Learner seems to be EITHER +1 HP and +1 skill point per level OR the alternate favored class bonus.

I can't imagine it being "+1 HP, +1 Skill, Favored class bonus. Pick 2."

I agree that this is most likely the intended rule, but they really could word it better. Such as:

"When you gain a level in a favored class, you gain both +1 hit point and +1 skill rank instead of choosing either one or the other. If you choose an alternate class reward, you do not get any benefit from this feat for that level."

Yea, all those "or"s make it weird.

Quote:

When you gain a level in a favored class, you gain [both +1 hit point and +1 skill rank instead of choosing either one or the other benefit] or [you can choose an alternate class reward.]

I think your final parsing is the correct one, and that still makes it a great feat for a human. Favorite class: wizard, Int = 18 means 7 skill points per level plus an additional hit point. Unlike some of the other posters I still see some value to Toughness but it would depend on the campaign.

Two feats and level 16 seems silly for what Martial Mastery gets. I've house-ruled a fighter-only feat I called Weapon Versatility that allowed all of a character's weapon-specific feats to apply to any weapon in the same weapon group.

For a single feat it adds a little versatility but no real power increase - at best, someone wielding a pair of kukris to save on feats might upgrade their main hand weapon to a rapier, for 1 extra average damage. Because weapons within the same group tend to have the same damage types, a fighter be able to get 2 of the 3 types (S/P/B) in a group, but not all three.

The primary benefit is that it makes a wider array of treasure useful - no more "Oh, that's a flaming handaxe, I only use light picks, just sell it." That's worth a feat, but not two - and certainly not at 16th level, when most characters have the money to commission whatever specialty weapon they want - and have already done so.

Adding my voice to the chorus that Fast Learner could be worded better.

As it stands, the current intent of the feat ("gain +1 hit point and +1 skill point, or the favored class bonus") is probably the best balanced, but some part of me wishes that it let you pick any two out of those three options (even though it's clear that 90% of the time the skill point would be the option that gets ignored).

The more I hear about this book, the more I look forward to getting a copy. Curse your seductive ways, Paizo!

Cheapy wrote:

Mabven the OP healer wrote:

Cheapy wrote:

Fast Learner seems to be EITHER +1 HP and +1 skill point per level OR the alternate favored class bonus.

I can't imagine it being "+1 HP, +1 Skill, Favored class bonus. Pick 2."

I agree that this is most likely the intended rule, but they really could word it better. Such as:

"When you gain a level in a favored class, you gain both +1 hit point and +1 skill rank instead of choosing either one or the other. If you choose an alternate class reward, you do not get any benefit from this feat for that level."

Yea, all those "or"s make it weird.

Quote:

When you gain a level in a favored class, you gain [both +1 hit point and +1 skill rank instead of choosing either one or the other benefit] or [you can choose an alternate class reward.]

I think your final parsing is the correct one, and that still makes it a great feat for a human. Favorite class: wizard, Int = 18 means 7 skill points per level plus an additional hit point. Unlike some of the other posters I still see some value to Toughness but it would depend on the campaign.

8 per level - 2 class, 4 int, 1 favoured class and 1 human...

This is going to be the best hardcover since the Advanced Players Guide, I'm sure!

Super sweet

A couple of questions:

Question #1:
With Martial Mastery & Martial Versatility, if you apply this with an Exotic Weapon you have Weapon Focus, does that mean it applies to all weapons in the Fighter Weapon Training groups? Or does that mean it applies to all weapons in that weight class (light, one-handed, two-handed, etc.)?

Question #2:
For the Critical Versatility feat, when we mention "critical feat", are we talking about feats like "Improved Critical"? Just want some clarification.

A couple of questions:

Question #1:
With Martial Mastery & Martial Versatility, if you apply this with an Exotic Weapon you have Weapon Focus, does that mean it applies to all weapons in the Fighter Weapon Training groups? Or does that mean it applies to all weapons in that weight class (light, one-handed, two-handed, etc.)?

It's talking about the Fighter Weapon Training groups.

Ok, I'm being obtuse. I don't see any difference between Martial Versatility and Martial Mastery.

Versatility says you can use any weapon specific feat with any weapon in the same group as that weapon. Mastery says all weapons. However, Versatility doesn't say to pick which weapon you can use it with, and every other feat in the book that says 'may be used with any' means any at any time, not any one that you pick (unless it specifically says pick any) one). So... confused, it seems like the two feats are functionally identical. What am I missing?

Question #2:

For the Critical Versatility feat, when we mention "critical feat", are we talking about feats like "Improved Critical"? Just want some clarification.

Improved critical is a combat feat not a (Critical) feat. It's refrencing feats like bleeding critical, blinding critical, etc.

Ok, I'm being obtuse. I don't see any difference between Martial Versatility and Martial Mastery.

Versatility says you can use any weapon specific feat with any weapon in the same group as that weapon. Mastery says all weapons. However, Versatility doesn't say to pick which weapon you can use it with, and every other feat in the book that says 'may be used with any' means any at any time, not any one that you pick (unless it specifically says pick any) one). So... confused, it seems like the two feats are functionally identical. What am I missing?

Martial Versatility (Combat) is choosing one feat to apply to a weapon group.

Martial Mastery is all combat feats applying to it.

mdt wrote:

What am I missing?

Martial Versatility (Combat) is choosing one feat to apply to a weapon group.

Martial Mastery is all combat feats applying to it.

DoH!

Thanks, I totally bypassed the 'Each' at the beginning of Mastery. Ok, that's not a bad feat then. :)

So,
A half-Orc barbarian could take all these human feats, given that he counts as both Orc and Human (And be able to take Orc feats). Same with a half-elf.

I don't believe so mdt, for the same reason outlined in in this FAQ.

I don't believe so mdt, for the same reason outlined in in this FAQ.

That's only for alternate racial traits. I don't think there's any specific Half-Orc feats or Half-Elf feats. And per 3.5, they could take a feat that required elf or orc blood. Unless Paizo's changed that explicitly...

EDIT : Honestly, I'd have preferred it if half-elves and half-orcs didn't have alternate racial favored class options, I'd have rather they just used human/elf and human/orc instead.

Hmm, yea.

Actually, they've said that feats are open for the half-races, like stabbing shot for half-elves from APG.

Racial traits and favored class options are something completely different though, as stated in the FAQ quoted.

It'd be nice to have a list of what are OK to take, and what aren't. Perhaps this book will go through that.

Orcs of Golarion has a bunch of feats that have the pre-req Orc or Half-Orc.

If Half-orcs could already take them then I dont think they would have called out both races.

So much love for Humans. I hope Gnomes get something equally awesome, and Dwarves get some fun stuff as well.

I can't speak for gnomes, but dwarves definitely get some fun stuff as well. In fact, one bit of dwarven "fun stuff" has already appeared in the previews.

So, for Fast Learner...

The obvious way to go is to choose the human favored class variant as your basic pick, then take Fast Learner to get hit points and skill points on top of that. Or am I missing something?