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Stealth Playtest, Round Two

Tuesday, September 20, 2011


Illustration by Christian Pearce

In case you missed it, a few weeks ago the Pathfinder design team previewed some changes we were considering making to the Stealth skill. Like any design endeavor, game design benefits from iteration. After letting all of you playtest the rules and let us know what you thought of the first draft, we went back to the drawing board and made some changes based on that fantastic feedback.
In this round of playtesting, you'll find that we've cleared up some action issues. We have opened up the possibilities for using standard actions with the Stealth skill, as long as those standard actions do not attack creatures. In this way, the Stealth skill mirrors the rules found in the invisibility spell; at least as far as what actions you can attempt while you are hidden without automatically ending that condition.

Speaking of hidden, while we have kept the invisible condition, and have even strengthened the wording on that condition a bit, we have also created a lesser, connected condition called hidden. You gain the hidden condition when you benefit from Stealth, and you gain the invisible condition when you use a spell or effect that makes you visually undetectable, like the invisibility spell. Hidden is the base condition, and invisible is an upgrade of that condition.

Lastly, we have added some small language changes to explain how the hidden condition interacts with some universal monster rules dealing with senses—specifically blindsense, blindsight, scent, and tremorsense.
Just like the last round of playtesting, keep in mind that these changes are not yet official. While you are free to use them in your home game—and we would like you to do so—these changes are not yet ready for Pathfinder Society play. This time around we are going to give you two weeks to playtest and comment on these proposed changes, so tell us what you think sometime before October 3rd. We'll announce the final version in the Design Tuesday blog sometime after the playtest is completed, and make changes to the rules using the Pathfinder RPG FAQ system.

Stealth

(Dex; Armor Check Penalty) You are skilled at avoiding detection, allowing you to slip past foes or strike from an unseen position. This skill covers hiding and moving silently.

Check: Your Stealth check is opposed by the Perception check of anyone who might notice you. Usually a Stealth check is made at the start of an action when you have some kind of cover (except for soft cover) or concealment. You cannot spend a free action to initiate Stealth, but if you spend a free action while under the effects of Stealth, you must make a new Stealth check to continue its effects. You can always spend a swift action to stay immobile and make a Stealth check. You can move up to half your speed and use Stealth at no penalty. When moving at a speed greater than half your speed and up to your normal speed, you take a –5 penalty on the Stealth check. It's usually impossible to use Stealth while taking an immediate action, a full-round action, or any action to make an attack, unless you are subject to greater invisibility or a similar effect, or you are sniping (see below). When you make your Stealth check, those creatures that didn't succeed at the opposed roll treat you as hidden until the start of your next action or until the end of your turn if you do not end your turn with cover or concealment. You are not hidden from creatures that are observing you (creatures that you didn't have cover or concealment from) or that succeed at the opposed check.
A creature larger or smaller than Medium takes a size bonus or penalty on Stealth checks depending on its size category: Fine +16, Diminutive +12, Tiny +8, Small +4, Large –4, Huge –8, Gargantuan –12, Colossal –16.

Attacking while Hidden: Usually, making an attack against a creature ends the hidden condition. For purposes of Stealth, an attack includes any spell targeting a foe or whose area or effect includes a foe. Actions directed at an unattended object do not end Stealth. Causing harm indirectly is not an attack. If during your last action you were hidden to a creature, you are still considered hidden when you make the first attack of that new action.

Other Perception Checks: If a creature makes a Perception check as a move action to notice a hidden creature, the DC of the Perception check is the hidden creature's last Stealth check. This is also the case if a creature makes a Perception check to notice a hidden creature because the perceiving creature is entering an area where it could possibly notice a hidden creature.

Sniping: If you already are hidden to a target and you are at least 10 feet away from that target, as a standard action, you can make one ranged attack against that target and immediately make an opposed Stealth check to stay hidden. You take a –20 penalty on your Stealth check when attempting to snipe.

Creating a Diversion to Hide: You can use Bluff to allow you to use Stealth. If you do not have cover or concealment, as a swift action, you can attempt a Bluff check opposed by the Sense Motive of opponents that can see you. If you are successful, you are considered to have concealment from those creatures (but you do not gain the percent miss chance from concealment) until the end of your next action, you make an attack (as defined in the Attacking while Hidden section, above), or the end of your turn, whichever happens first.

Action: Usually making a Stealth check is not an action. Using Stealth is part of the action you are taking.

Special: If you are subject to the invisibility or greater invisibility spells or a similar effect, you gain a +40 bonus on Stealth checks while you are immobile, or a +20 bonus on Stealth checks while you're moving. If you have the Stealthy feat, you get a bonus on Stealth checks (see Chapter 5).

Conditions

Hidden: You are difficult to detect but you not invisible. A hidden creature gains a +2 bonus on attack rolls against sighted opponents, and ignores its opponents' Dexterity bonus to AC (if any). You do not have line of sight to a creature or object that is hidden from you.

Invisible: Invisible creatures are visually undetectable. An invisible creature or object gains the benefits of the hidden condition. An invisible object or creature gains total concealment.

Universal Monster Rules

Blindsense (Ex) Using nonvisual senses, such as acute smell or hearing, a creature with blindsense notices things it cannot see. The creature usually does not need to make Perception checks notice hidden creatures or to pinpoint the location of an invisible creature within range of its blindsense ability, provided that it has line of effect to that creature. Any opponent the creature cannot see still has total concealment from the creature with blindsense, and the creature still has the normal miss chance when attacking foes that have concealment. Visibility still affects the movement of a creature with blindsense. A creature with blindsense is still denied its Dexterity bonus to Armor Class against attacks from creatures it cannot see.
Format: blindsense 60 ft.; Location: Senses.

Blindsight (Ex) This ability is similar to blindsense, but is far more discerning. Using nonvisual senses, such as sensitivity to vibrations, keen smell, acute hearing, or echolocation, a creature with blindsight maneuvers and fights as well as a sighted creature. invisibility, darkness, and most kinds of concealment are irrelevant, as is the hidden condition, though the creature must have line of effect to a creature or object to discern that creature or object. The ability's range is specified in the creature's descriptive text. The creature usually does not need to make Perception checks to notice creatures within this range. Unless noted otherwise, blindsight is continuous, and the creature need do nothing to use it. Some forms of blindsight, however, must be triggered as a free action. If so, this is noted in the creature's description. If a creature must trigger its blindsight ability, the creature gains the benefits of blindsight only during its turn.
Format: blindsight 60 ft.; Location: Senses.

Scent (Ex) This special quality allows a creature to detect approaching enemies, sniff out hidden foes, and track by sense of smell. Creatures with the scent ability can identify familiar odors just as humans do familiar sights.
The creature can detect opponents within 30 feet by sense of smell. If the opponent is upwind, the range increases to 60 feet; if downwind, it drops to 15 feet. Strong scents, such as smoke or rotting garbage, can be detected at twice the ranges noted above. Overpowering scents, such as skunk musk or troglodyte stench, can be detected at triple normal range.
When a creature detects a scent, the exact location of the source is not revealed—only its presence somewhere within range. The creature can take a move action to note the direction of the scent. When it is within 5 feet of the source, the creature pinpoints the source's location or notices a hidden creature.
A creature with the scent ability can follow tracks by smell, making a Wisdom (or Survival) check to find or follow a track. The typical DC for a fresh trail is 10 (no matter what kind of surface holds the scent). This DC increases or decreases depending on how strong the quarry's odor is, the number of creatures, and the age of the trail. For each hour that the trail is cold, the DC increases by 2. The ability otherwise follows the rules for the Survival skill. Creatures tracking by scent ignore the effects of surface conditions and poor visibility.
Format: scent; Location: Senses.

Tremorsense (Ex) A creature with tremorsense is sensitive to vibrations in the ground and can automatically notice hidden creatures and objects as well as pinpoint invisible creatures and objects in contact with the ground. Aquatic creatures with tremorsense can also sense the location of creatures moving through water. The ability's range is specified in the creature's descriptive text.
Format: tremorsense 60 ft.; Location: Senses.

Stephen Radney-MacFarland
Designer

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Shadow Lodge

2 people marked this as a favorite.

Looks very solid on the first go through. I do like the part on how it interacts with the different senses.

I will take a longer look and give some more detailed feed back later.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Nice. I like the fix ups to the other senses, although I am a little iffy about the 5 foot rule of Scent.


Quote:
You cannot spend a free action to initiate Stealth, but if you spend a free action while under the effects of Stealth, you must make a new Stealth check to continue its effects. You can always spend a swift action to stay immobile and make a Stealth check.

I think you meant to say:

Quote:


You cannot spend a free action to initiate Stealth, but if you spend a free action while under the effects of Stealth, you may make a new Stealth check to continue its effects. You can always spend a swift action to stay immobile and make a Stealth check.

Otherwise, the two parts to that sentence have nothing to do with each other - just because you can't spend a free action to initiate stealth has nothing to do with the requirement to roll to maintain it because you took a free action.

Personally, I'd modify it to say:

Quote:

You cannot spend a free action to initiate Stealth, but if you take an action while under the effects of Stealth, you may spend a free action to make a new Stealth check to continue its effects. You can always spend a swift action to stay immobile and make a Stealth check.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Whoops, one issue:

If you're in the middle of a combat, and take the swift action to hide...does that work?

Paizo Employee Designer

If are hidden and you take a free action, and you want to stay hidden, you must make a Stealth check in order to do so.

Stealth checks are not free actions, they are part of the action you take...including free actions if you want to stay hidden while taking that free action.

What you cannot do is spend a free action to initiate Stealth. If you are not hidden, you cannot spend a free action and make a Stealth check to become hidden.

Paizo Employee Designer

Cheapy wrote:

Whoops, one issue:

If you're in the middle of a combat, and take the swift action to hide...does that work?

Well, you must have cover (except soft cover) or concealment from the creatures you are trying to hide from. You can stay immobile by spending a swift action and make a hide check as that action.

It's a little strange, I know, but we wanted to have a higher action cost that a free action to make a Stealth check, and swift seemed to be the best option.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Stephen Radney-MacFarland wrote:

If are hidden and you take a free action, and you want to stay hidden, you must make a Stealth check in order to do so.

Stealth checks are not free actions, they are part of the action you take...including free actions if you want to stay hidden while taking that free action.

What you cannot do is spend a free action to initiate Stealth. If you are not hidden, you cannot spend a free action and make a Stealth check to become hidden.

So if I'm good enough at Stealth, I can speak (a free action allowed out of turn), and remain hidden?

Or even Speak then start to be hidden?


Paizo Charter Superscriber; Pathfinder Deluxe Comics Subscriber

It might be interesting to note how Hide in Plain Sight interacts with these rules. Otherwise I like it.

I noticed one thing. Previously it used to be that if attacked by an invisible you lost your DEX bonus and got an additional -2 penalty to AC. It seems this penalty is now shifted to a hidden attacker as a +2 bonus to attack, which makes sense, as it is a feature of the attacker not of the defender; there's no "oblivious" condition. :) Good.

Paizo Employee Designer

Cheapy wrote:
Stephen Radney-MacFarland wrote:

If are hidden and you take a free action, and you want to stay hidden, you must make a Stealth check in order to do so.

Stealth checks are not free actions, they are part of the action you take...including free actions if you want to stay hidden while taking that free action.

What you cannot do is spend a free action to initiate Stealth. If you are not hidden, you cannot spend a free action and make a Stealth check to become hidden.

So if I'm good enough at Stealth, I can speak (a free action allowed out of turn), and remain hidden?

Or even Speak then start to be hidden?

You can speak and attempt to stay hidden (assuming you are whispering or doing something to stay hidden...since that's the smart thing to do), but because you cannot initiate a Stealth with a free action. So you cannot speak and start to be hidden.

RPG Superstar 2009, Contributor

2 people marked this as a favorite.

I like.

Spoiler:

Now...if you can just work on that "facing" part we discussed... ;-)


Stephen Radney-MacFarland wrote:

If are hidden and you take a free action, and you want to stay hidden, you must make a Stealth check in order to do so.

Stealth checks are not free actions, they are part of the action you take...including free actions if you want to stay hidden while taking that free action.

What you cannot do is spend a free action to initiate Stealth. If you are not hidden, you cannot spend a free action and make a Stealth check to become hidden.

I see what you're going for now. I'd word it this way, then:

Quote:
If you take a free action while already under the effects of Stealth, you must make a new Stealth check to continue its effects. You may not initiate Stealth as part of a free action.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Stephen Radney-MacFarland wrote:
Cheapy wrote:
Stephen Radney-MacFarland wrote:

If are hidden and you take a free action, and you want to stay hidden, you must make a Stealth check in order to do so.

Stealth checks are not free actions, they are part of the action you take...including free actions if you want to stay hidden while taking that free action.

What you cannot do is spend a free action to initiate Stealth. If you are not hidden, you cannot spend a free action and make a Stealth check to become hidden.

So if I'm good enough at Stealth, I can speak (a free action allowed out of turn), and remain hidden?

Or even Speak then start to be hidden?

You can speak and attempt to stay hidden (assuming you are whispering or doing something to stay hidden...since that's the smart thing to do), but because you cannot initiate a Stealth with a free action. So you cannot speak and start to be hidden.

I think Bobson understands my confusion.

I thought you couldn't start stealth as a free action but if you took another free action, you could tag along Stealth checks.

I agree with Bobson's wording.

Andoran

Paizo Charter Superscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Deluxe Comics Subscriber

You still need to make clear how someone/thing with Scent can detect a scent (DC? Automatic?)and how and if Stealth affects that.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

You're moving 30', stealthily. You roll a natural one on your check, and due to that don't beat a few enemies. You spend a swift action to stop where you are, and try to be stealthy.

Does that work?

My interpretation is that you would be noticed by those who saw you, but not necessarily by those who didn't see you fail the check.


Wait... can I cast a spell and make a Stealth Check to remain hidden?

If not, can someone point out for me where it says I can't?

By this, I mean a spell which is not also an attack (like buffs, or heals), cast targeting myself, an object, or an ally.

EDIT: Cheapy's above post certainly makes it seem like there should be some sort of limit on Stealth checks per round.

Paizo Employee Designer

Zaister wrote:

It might be interesting to note how Hide in Plain Sight interacts with these rules. Otherwise I like it.

I noticed one thing. Previously it used to be that if attacked by an invisible you lost your DEX bonus and got an additional -2 penalty to AC. It seems this penalty is now shifted to a hidden attacker as a +2 bonus to attack, which makes sense, as it is a feature of the attacker not of the defender; there's no "oblivious" condition. :) Good.

Since hide in plain sight interacts with what environments that you can use Stealth, giving exceptions to the usual need for either cover or concealment in particular situations, these rules should work perfectly fine with those exceptions. That's the goal anyhow.

The +2 to attack rolls was part of the original invisible condition in the Pathfinder Core Rulebook. I am pretty sure that was even the case in 3.5.

Paizo Employee Designer

KrispyXIV wrote:

Wait... can I cast a spell and make a Stealth Check to remain hidden?

If not, can someone point out for me where it says I can't?

By this, I mean a spell which is not also an attack (like buffs, or heals), cast targeting myself, an object, or an ally.

You can, but you must make a new Stealth check when you do.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
KrispyXIV wrote:

Wait... can I cast a spell and make a Stealth Check to remain hidden?

If not, can someone point out for me where it says I can't?

By this, I mean a spell which is not also an attack (like buffs, or heals), cast targeting myself, an object, or an ally.

Go Unnoticed just became really good :)


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Was it the intent that spells that don't "come from" a caster would still break stealth?

Such as Call Lightning.

Shadow Lodge

"Creating a Diversion to Hide: You can use Bluff to allow you to use Stealth. If you do not have cover or concealment, as a swift action, you can attempt a Bluff check opposed by the Sense Motive of opponents that can see you. If you are successful, you are considered to have concealment from those creatures (but you do not gain the percent miss chance from concealment) until the end of your next action, you make an attack (as defined in the Attacking while Hidden section, above), or the end of your turn, whichever happens first. Action: Usually making a Stealth check is not an action. Using Stealth is part of the action you are taking."

So if I read this right after slicing a dog I can in tell the angry guard "Hey look it's that ninja!" and if I beat his sense motive I can then run like a scared halfling and hide?


Oh - one request. Can we please get a definition of what it means to "pinpoint" a creature? Does that mean you know exactly what space, but still have normal total concealment miss chance? Or that you know exactly where they are and can hit them as if they weren't hidden/invisible?


Cheapy wrote:
KrispyXIV wrote:

Wait... can I cast a spell and make a Stealth Check to remain hidden?

If not, can someone point out for me where it says I can't?

By this, I mean a spell which is not also an attack (like buffs, or heals), cast targeting myself, an object, or an ally.

Go Unnoticed just became really good :)

I liked stealth on casters before. Now? Like this? Its near required.

And a good thing!

Paizo Employee Designer

Cheapy wrote:

Was it the intent that spells that don't "come from" a caster would still break stealth?

Such as Call Lightning.

That particular spell take a full-round action to cast, so you typically can't do it with a stealth check, unless you have greater invisibility or some other way to stay hidden while using full-round action. After that, the action it takes to concentrate on a spell and call down further bolts is a gray area, but I would say you can still attempt to stay hidden in the normal way.

That's something we will have to talk about internally, but it also affects the invisibility spell, so that's probably an FAQ rather than an update issue.

Paizo Employee Designer

Bobson wrote:
Oh - one request. Can we please get a definition of what it means to "pinpoint" a creature? Does that mean you know exactly what space, but still have normal total concealment miss chance? Or that you know exactly where they are and can hit them as if they weren't hidden/invisible?

The first, not the second. You can find that on page 563 of the Core Rulebook.

Paizo Employee Designer

dartnet wrote:

"Creating a Diversion to Hide: You can use Bluff to allow you to use Stealth. If you do not have cover or concealment, as a swift action, you can attempt a Bluff check opposed by the Sense Motive of opponents that can see you. If you are successful, you are considered to have concealment from those creatures (but you do not gain the percent miss chance from concealment) until the end of your next action, you make an attack (as defined in the Attacking while Hidden section, above), or the end of your turn, whichever happens first. Action: Usually making a Stealth check is not an action. Using Stealth is part of the action you are taking."

So if I read this right after slicing a dog I can in tell the angry guard "Hey look it's that ninja!" and if I beat his sense motive I can then run like a scared halfling and hide?

That is correct, my goblin friend.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Stephen Radney-MacFarland wrote:
Cheapy wrote:

Was it the intent that spells that don't "come from" a caster would still break stealth?

Such as Call Lightning.

That particular spell take a full-round action to cast, so you typically can't do it with a stealth check, unless you have greater invisibility or some other way to stay hidden while using full-round action. After that, the action it takes to concentrate on a spell and call down further bolts is a gray area, but I would say you can still attempt to stay hidden in the normal way.

That's something we will have to talk about internally, but it also affects the invisibility spell, so that's probably an FAQ rather than an update issue.

Oh, forgot about the full-round action.

My main concern is the spells that don't come from you, such as Earth Call.

I believe Create Pit is indirect harm, so you could remain stealthed...

Paizo Employee Designer

Cheapy wrote:
Stephen Radney-MacFarland wrote:
Cheapy wrote:

Was it the intent that spells that don't "come from" a caster would still break stealth?

Such as Call Lightning.

That particular spell take a full-round action to cast, so you typically can't do it with a stealth check, unless you have greater invisibility or some other way to stay hidden while using full-round action. After that, the action it takes to concentrate on a spell and call down further bolts is a gray area, but I would say you can still attempt to stay hidden in the normal way.

That's something we will have to talk about internally, but it also affects the invisibility spell, so that's probably an FAQ rather than an update issue.

Oh, forgot about the full-round action.

My main concern is the spells that don't come from you, such as Earth Call.

I believe Create Pit is indirect harm, so you could remain stealthed...

Anything you can cast while under the effects of the invisibility spell and still stay invisible, you can cast while you are hidden and still possibly stay hidden.

Paizo Employee Designer

Neil Spicer wrote:

I like.

** spoiler omitted **

You're a funny guy, Neil. :)


Stephen Radney-MacFarland wrote:
Bobson wrote:
Oh - one request. Can we please get a definition of what it means to "pinpoint" a creature? Does that mean you know exactly what space, but still have normal total concealment miss chance? Or that you know exactly where they are and can hit them as if they weren't hidden/invisible?
The first, not the second. You can find that on page 563 of the Core Rulebook.

Ah-ha! Thanks. We've always played it that way, but I never had a rule quote for it before.

Andoran

Zaister wrote:

It might be interesting to note how Hide in Plain Sight interacts with these rules. Otherwise I like it.

I noticed one thing. Previously it used to be that if attacked by an invisible you lost your DEX bonus and got an additional -2 penalty to AC. It seems this penalty is now shifted to a hidden attacker as a +2 bonus to attack, which makes sense, as it is a feature of the attacker not of the defender; there's no "oblivious" condition. :) Good.

Perhaps there should be an oblivious condition, or would that be stunned or helpless already? Or Flat-Footed?

Paizo Employee Designer

1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. 8 people marked this as a favorite.
Dragnmoon wrote:
You still need to make clear how someone/thing with Scent can detect a scent (DC? Automatic?)and how and if Stealth affects that.

If it is within range, it is automatic. Stealth doesn't help you when going up against a creature that has scent. That's the long and short of it.

Andoran

KrispyXIV wrote:

Wait... can I cast a spell and make a Stealth Check to remain hidden?

If not, can someone point out for me where it says I can't?

By this, I mean a spell which is not also an attack (like buffs, or heals), cast targeting myself, an object, or an ally.

EDIT: Cheapy's above post certainly makes it seem like there should be some sort of limit on Stealth checks per round.

Personally, I would consider this to be akin to sniping and use the -20 penalty accordingly.


Stephen Radney-MacFarland wrote:

Anything you can cast while under the effects of the invisibility spell and still stay invisible, you can cast while you are hidden and still possibly stay hidden.

So the Stealthed/Invisible Rogue and/or Spellchucker with the Wand or Spells of Summon Monster/Planar Ally/Infernal Lawyer can still remain hidden while making someone else have a very bad day.

*Monty Burns* Eeeexcellent.

Andoran

1 person marked this as a favorite.

How about an explicit interaction with flanking?
When GMing, I've always ruled that you don't provide flank if you're invisible or stealthed because the flanking rules are predicated on the target being "threatened."
If I'm totally unaware of something's existence, it isn't going to be very threatening to me.

Paizo Employee Designer

12 people marked this as a favorite.
tjlatta wrote:

How about an explicit interaction with flanking?

When GMing, I've always ruled that you don't provide flank if you're invisible or stealthed because the flanking rules are predicated on the target being "threatened."
If I'm totally unaware of something's existence, it isn't going to be very threatening to me.

A creature threatens under certain circumstances (see page 180 of the Core Rulebook). It may not seem threatening to you, but that's not how threatened squares work in the rules. An invisible or hidden creature still threatens, because it could and might make and attack in a creature within those squares.

Andoran

Paizo Charter Superscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Deluxe Comics Subscriber
Stephen Radney-MacFarland wrote:
Dragnmoon wrote:
You still need to make clear how someone/thing with Scent can detect a scent (DC? Automatic?)and how and if Stealth affects that.
If it is within range, it is automatic. Stealth doesn't help you when going up against a creature that has scent. That's the long and short of it.

*Wishes this was not a playtest thread* That is how I run it now, and you have no clue how much headache I get over that!


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

So if I stealthily cast haste (to buff my party) I remain stealthy.
(Not using Invisibility, but the stealth skill)
But when I stealthily cast Ice storm, my stealthiness fails.

Unless my ice storm was just dropping shards of ice/hail and those unfortunate sods just happened to get in the way, and I remain stealthed. (As they were indirectly harmed).

Or I could use that as a distraction "OMG an Ice storm!" to restart my stealthing?

Interesting.. gives me something to try out.

Also.. since I can't full round action for stealth... can my rogue no longer stealthily Coup-de-grace someone? Since it is both an attack, and a full round action???? Or that my CdG goes off, and I am no longer stealthy since I attacked.


Thank you for this. Y’all are awesome.

A suggestion: Some notes on sound. For example what if any bonuses does the Silence spell grant to stealth. It won’t have an effect on line of sight and such, but becomes very important if you are ‘sneaking’ instead of ‘hiding’.


Terrific improvement. A few notes:

Does not the section on actions belong under an Action: -headed paragraph as is the style for the other skills? Even if stealth does not take an action, such a section might be useful so that people can quickly identify that.

I still feel like you're "burying the lead" as far as stealth granting a hidden state. It seems more important to know what it does, then how much it costs. I'd like to see the information presented in that order; "stealth grants hidden" first, action costs second, or in their own section.

The language "you may always spend a swift action" still troubles me. It may be the placement, since it comes before the description of limitations on initiating stealth. That goes back to point 1, above.

Lastly, I still see the phrase "use Stealth" but I'm glad to see you've adopted the proper English verb "hide" in the paragraph title at least! Don't think the clarity would suffer if you were to use "hide" in all cases, at least contrasting it with other potential uses of the stealth skill (sniping comes to mind?). Nitpicking semantics again. You can count on me to do that.

That's it, really! I'm very happy to see the hidden condition. It's laudable that you adopted so many of the suggestions. This version is suitable to playtest in my ongoing campaign. Will report back!

(PS- You do realize that September 26th is only 6 days and not two weeks, right?)

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Companion Subscriber
Quote:
Creating a Diversion to Hide: You can use Bluff to allow you to use Stealth. If you do not have cover or concealment, as a swift action, you can attempt a Bluff check opposed by the Sense Motive of opponents that can see you. If you are successful, you are considered to have concealment from those creatures (but you do not gain the percent miss chance from concealment) until the end of your next action, you make an attack (as defined in the Attacking while Hidden section, above), or the end of your turn, whichever happens first. Action: Usually making a Stealth check is not an action. Using Stealth is part of the action you are taking.

Okay, this seems to imply that a stealth check is involved somewhere in here, but I don't seem WHEN you actually get to make it. The way I read it is, if you have a good enough bluff, you don't need stealth, because you can bluff yourself invisible, which then seems like it makes stealth redundant for classes that has them both, as you can use bluff for all the normal bluff uses, AND for stealthing.

Am I misunderstanding this?

Paizo Employee Designer

Evil Lincoln wrote:

(PS- You do realize that September 26th is only 6 days and not two weeks, right?)

I do. This was originally planned to go up last week, but the minis announcement bumped it to this week. I asked for this to be changed, but it wasn't. The playtest lasts until the 3rd, which means that the 3rd is the last day to get comments on this message board.

Paizo Employee Designer

Ryu_Hitome wrote:
Quote:
Creating a Diversion to Hide: You can use Bluff to allow you to use Stealth. If you do not have cover or concealment, as a swift action, you can attempt a Bluff check opposed by the Sense Motive of opponents that can see you. If you are successful, you are considered to have concealment from those creatures (but you do not gain the percent miss chance from concealment) until the end of your next action, you make an attack (as defined in the Attacking while Hidden section, above), or the end of your turn, whichever happens first. Action: Usually making a Stealth check is not an action. Using Stealth is part of the action you are taking.

Okay, this seems to imply that a stealth check is involved somewhere in here, but I don't seem WHEN you actually get to make it. The way I read it is, if you have a good enough bluff, you don't need stealth, because you can bluff yourself invisible, which then seems like it makes stealth redundant for classes that has them both, as you can use bluff for all the normal bluff uses, AND for stealthing.

Am I misunderstanding this?

You make the Stealth check as part of your next action, since you have concealment until the end of your next action (or you make an attack, or until the end of your turn, whichever happens first). Usually, you will use it to move away, but there are other ways to use it as well.


So if I understand correctly, anyone can, while standing in plain sight, attempt to feint as a swift action and, if successful, follow it up with a stealth check to deny opponents their Dex bonus to AC (thereby allowing the feinting-hider to sneak attack if they have that class ability). And this can be done every round even if they remain right in front of everyone? Would it work with only a standard action attack or even a full-attack (for the first attack only of course)?

If so, it'd seem that the bluff-stealth battlefield shuffle will be the latest dance craze to sweep the roguish population.

Paizo Employee Designer

Evil Lincoln wrote:

Terrific improvement. A few notes:

Does not the section on actions belong under an Action: -headed paragraph as is the style for the other skills? Even if stealth does not take an action, such a section might be useful so that people can quickly identify that.

Ayep, I'm getting this and the date thing fixed.


One problem I have is that now a stealthy can't hide and draw & drink a potion, or switch out gear in preparation for ambush.

Andoran

Stephen Radney-MacFarland wrote:
Dragnmoon wrote:
You still need to make clear how someone/thing with Scent can detect a scent (DC? Automatic?)and how and if Stealth affects that.
If it is within range, it is automatic. Stealth doesn't help you when going up against a creature that has scent. That's the long and short of it.

It helps quite a bit... you just need to carry a reach weapon.

Paizo Employee Designer

Ambrus wrote:

So if I understand correctly, anyone can, while standing in plain sight, attempt to feint as a swift action and, if successful, follow it up with a stealth check to deny opponents their Dex bonus to AC (thereby allowing the feinting-hider to sneak attack if they have that class ability). And this can be done every round even if they remain right in front of everyone? Would it work with only a standard action attack or even a full-attack (for the first attack only of course)?

If so, it'd seem that the bluff-stealth battlefield shuffle will be the latest dance craze to sweep the roguish population.

You would have to do this, or something like this, and you must have hide in plain sight or something similar that allows you to use Stealth in "full view" of creatures.

Take a swift action to feint, make an attack, take a 5-foot step and make a Stealth check as part of that move, and then make another attack.

You need to succeed both checks to pull it off.

Paizo Employee Designer

Malignor wrote:
One problem I have is that now a stealthy can't hide and draw & drink a potion, or switch out gear in preparation for ambush.

You can do all of those things while and attempt to remain hidden.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Stephen Radney-MacFarland wrote:

You make the Stealth check as part of your next action, since you have concealment until the end of your next action (or you make an attack, or until the end of your turn, whichever happens first). Usually, you will use it to move away, but there are other ways to use it as well.

Hmmm, here's a question for you....

Normally, the rogue would have had to get behind cover in order for that brief period of concealment after a bluff to be useful. However there is this line in the stealth rules: "If during your last action you were hidden to a creature, you are still considered hidden when you make the first attack of that new action". So, doesn't that mean a rogue could bluff, stealth, and then sneak attack all in the same round even without an real cover or concealment around?

I don't consider this overpowered because it is basically a harder version of the Improved Feint feat, but I wanted to make sure that my interpretation was correct and that this was intended in the rules.

Paizo Employee Designer

Matrixryu wrote:
Stephen Radney-MacFarland wrote:

You make the Stealth check as part of your next action, since you have concealment until the end of your next action (or you make an attack, or until the end of your turn, whichever happens first). Usually, you will use it to move away, but there are other ways to use it as well.

Hmmm, here's a question for you....

Normally, the rogue would have had to get behind cover in order for that brief period of concealment after a bluff to be useful. However there is this line in the stealth rules: "If during your last action you were hidden to a creature, you are still considered hidden when you make the first attack of that new action". So, doesn't that mean a rogue could bluff, stealth, and then sneak attack all in the same round even without an real cover or concealment around?

I don't consider this overpowered because it is basically a harder version of the Improved Feint feat, but I wanted to make sure that my interpretation was correct and that this was intended in the rules.

If you stealth as part of an action, you must have cover or concealment (or hide in plain sight, or invisibility) in order to do it. Remember, you always use stealth as part of an action.

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