I've only made a few Characters so far for Society, but I have the habit of making about 4 scores under 10, to bring 2 up way higher. Do you tend to over power 1 or 2 stats, or do you try to keep everything average with each other to avoid have negs?
My current Character is a 14yearold girl, Gunslinger (Pistolero). When I make my characters I try to keep them close to what stats I think they would have, so being she is a young girl she is pretty weak and stupid.
Right now she is at Str 7, Dex 20, Con 10, Int 7, Wis 17, Cha 8. I think for being a trained gunslinger and yet still a young girl, that is pretty fitting.
I was thinking about the Charming aspect, but when thinking about how she is still young, I still wouldn't put her past 10 at most. Not to mention kids generally aren't that charismatic. The strength part I could see being a little higher, but even a athletic girl isn't very strong.
I mostly did wisdom for the grit so she could be more defensive if needed and I know a few people who are pretty wise even for their young age, the background story I have for her is she learned quickly to look out for her self, so she became wise quickly to avoid taking on more than she could handle.
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as a GM i roll my eyes when i see 7/20s accompanied with the "It fits the character" explanation.
The very first flaw I see with your character is that she'll very quickly get to a medium load. Your weapon and gunsmith kit (6lb) already takes you a quarter of the way there. Then you have your armor, since you have 20 dex you might want to go for studded leather armor, which is 20lb, putting you over, even if you opt for the lighter leather armor you still end up with 21lb of weight, a whole 3lb off medium load. And we haven't even looked at your back up weapon.
Still looking at your terrible strength score, it's pretty damn wishful thinking that you'll never get into melee. Grapples and disarms are going to be laughably easy to pull off on you.
10 con? There's a player's character where I GM that I have killed twice now (by accident) that has 8 con, these killings were done as a full round action by the way.
7 int? so you'll have 2 skill points per level, 3 if you choose not to go for the HP. Your going to have to put at least 1 point in craft (alchemy) to get fire arm ammunition cheap, that's not leaving much for out of combat (and some in combat) situations
I find one dump stat is ok, but dumping many stats to boost one ends up hurting more than helping.
I hate to admit, I dump stats too. However, I at least try to be reasonable.
*STR is how much you can carry
*DEX affects so much
*CON = more HP
*INT is more skill points, however I may sometimes dump it on classes that have a lot of skill points to begin with.
*WIS is questionable, but then again I don't make a lot of Will Saves... As in I tend to never be the target of them (and if so, usually on a high-will save character
*CHA... Well yeah... You see... Any skills of yours need CHA? No? Probably dump it (I feel ashamed of saying this...)
I know my PFS Gunslinger has the following stat array and reasoning:
(Human, +2 to DEX)
12 STR (Store more stuff? I'm barely on the edge of Medium Encumbrance)
19 DEX (I'll put my level 4 bonus here... I could still aim for a +6 at level 12)
12 CON (Help's fortitude, and d10 hit dice to me doesn't really scream help need more HP)
12 INT (4+1 Int+1 Favored Class Bonus=6 skill points. I'm maxing that perception, and doing other skills)
14 WIS (I never really use Grit a lot as a Pistolero...)
7 CHA (Pfft. I'm not the party's face, even if one of my traits gave me Diplomacy as a class skill.)
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I believe the minimum age for a Human in PFS is 15 (maybe 16). The Society does not "graduate" children. As such, the PC must be an adult (see table on page 169 of the Core Rulebook).
Also, being a "one trick pony" means your PC has a lot of weaknesses your GM can exploit, but as long as you play your PC's abilities correctly - especially the crippling ones - I'll respect your character concept.
I do find that most 7/20 players conveniently forget to play their 7's. Take your 7 INT for example (nevermind your 7 STR). A 7 INT means your PC is a borderline imbecile. They only have a rudimentary grasp of language (ie Common) and might have difficulty assembling and cleaning a pistol. I would consider the risk of accidentally shooting themselves, high. They would have very little "memory space" and would probably be forgetting things quite often (such as how to load a gun - "now is it powder first or musket ball?").
And don't forget battle tactics. You might be a master tactician, flanking, higher ground, when to grapple, when to aid another, but your 7 INT PC ... um, no.
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Do you tend to over power 1 or 2 stats, or do you try to keep everything average with each other to avoid have negs?
I have four 'real' PFS characters; their stat arrays at 1st level were (in Str, Dex, Con, Int, Wis, Cha order):
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14 10 14 10 16 14 - cleric
08 14 14 18 10 12 - witch
12 18 13 10 14 10 - gunslinger
18 14 13 10 12 10 - ranger
So, three 18s (all 16s with human +2 bonus), one 8, and nothing more extreme than that.
None of my characters have suffered from being under-specialised; if anything, my gunslinger is a bit of a one trick pony, even with such balanced stats (relative to your gunslinger's).
I do find that most 7/20 players conveniently forget to play their 7's. Take your 7 INT for example (nevermind your 7 STR). A 7 INT means your PC is a borderline imbecile. They only have a rudimentary grasp of language (ie Common) and might have difficulty assembling and cleaning a pistol. I would consider the risk of accidentally shooting themselves, high. They would have very little "memory space" and would probably be forgetting things quite often (such as how to load a gun - "now is it powder first or musket ball?").
And don't forget battle tactics. You might be a master tactician, flanking, higher ground, when to grapple, when to aid another, but your 7 INT PC ... um, no.
A 7 Int is only -2 on a d20 roll, which is about 10% less smart than a peasant. Not a high base line admittedly, but hardly mentally impaired.
If a 7 Int is borderline imbecile then 14 Int is borderline genius. If a 7 Int only has a rudimentary grasp of language and forgets things frequently then 14 Int is an expert linguist with a near photographic memory. As that's clearly not the case for a 14 Int then the disadvantage of a 7 Int has been overplayed, especially if the Wisdom is above average too. The -2 is already factored into certain skill rolls, intelligence checks, and number of skills and languages, but that's all there is to it. Anything else, such as changing language capability and memory further, or refusing to let them flank or gain higher ground, is just inventing new rules.
If an 18 Int (+4) is considered borderline genius then you'd need an Int of 3 to become borderline imbecile (-4). It does depend on your starting position of course. If the 'average' int is 14 then that changes things a lot; I've assumed it's 10.
Having 1 skill point in a class skill gives you +20% (+4) thereby easily overcoming any innate penalty. A 7 Int character with 1 rank in Knowledge Local knows as much about the local area as a character with Int 14 when asked a general question and is capable of knowing specifics the more intellgent character can't hope to match (ie can roll above 10). I don't see why that wouldn't translate into combat. In fact a less intelligent character is more likely to get into combat in the first place as on average he'll lose an argument with a smarter guy, so he probably fights *better* than an Int 10 peasant.
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Actually a 7 INT translates to a 70 IQ which is borderline moron (I mean no offense, this is a psychological term). A character above 15 INT is a genius. Animals have INT of 2. A 3 INT is the lowest possible for any kind of language ability.
My main point is that beyond simple game mechanics, ability scores affect the way a character acts (ie, the roleplay aspect) and it is a non sequitur to have a PC acting like a genius when they clearly are not.
Also, I do not stop players from taking advantage of the game rules. I just find it objectionable when they ignore facets of the character they built to allow their PC unreasonable advantage.
An IQ of 70 isn't 10% less intelligent than an IQ of 100, so I'd give them an IQ of 90 instead. I'm not sure how far linking IQ to Int can be taken, but any IQ test carried out in PFRPG would require a d20 roll. Even if my maths is wrong and a d20 = average 10, that still gives them an IQ of 80 (10-2). I'm not arguing that they're smart, just that they're not complete morons barely capable of speech.
Edit: as a 6 Int is also -2 and 7 is better, just not on d20 rolls, then a 7 is equivalent to IQ 85, or an unskilled worker who may have completed 7 years of elementary school but then dropped out.
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Actually a 7 INT translates to a 70 IQ
Citation please?
Keep in mind that all the ability scores are on the same number system (i.e., a 7 INT is the same level of "handicap" as a 7 CON or a 7 CHA or any other 7, just in a different aspect of the person).
Further keep in mind that the entire NPC population of the planet has, by default, an array of scores that includes a pre-racial 8 - even the heroic ones.
Assuming random distribution, that means that one-sixth of the entire population of the planet has 8 INT. This PC is only 1 point less than that. So you're saying that one-sixth of the planet is just a step away from serious mental deficiency?
Furthermore, fully half of Golarion's dwarves have 8 or less CHA, half of elves have 8 or less CON, etc. So half the population of dwarves and elves are borderline handicapped? Makes you wonder how they function as viable races, doesn't it?
And one sixth of elves have 6 CON; even worse than this PC's INT. Is one sixth of the elf population comprised of invalids? How about the one sixth of dwarves with 6 CHA? Are they borderline monstrous?
If you believe a 7 in an ability score is as bad as you say, then you're simply incorrect about the campaign setting. A 7 is still a fully-functional individual.
It's okay to not like dump stats. But the player isn't ignoring anything, and claiming that a 7 is worse than the mechanics already demonstrate is simply incorrect, as evidenced by an objective look at ability score rules and NPC/setting material.
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2Jiggy: I think the score * 10 = IQ comes from an old version of D&D - possibly AD&D where it was mentioned as a guide to visualize the scores. I remember that is goes back a very long time - and never was mathematically accurate on the fringes as the IQ scale might peak around 10* average of 3d6 but the distribution of IQ is less flat.
Also this was done before racial modifiers have been used - making the scale even less appropriate nowadays.
Back to dumping Charisma. All I can say is - in PFS play this is done at your own risk.
Diplomacy (and sometimes intimidation) is amont the most used skills to do faction missions. You can't always ask someone else to do them for you. Off course - it depends on the faction how often you need Diplomacy. Even an 'easy' DC 15 Diplomacy task can become nearly impossible for a Cha gimped character.
I remember a scenario where our low Cha barbarian managed to gather so many negative points for our group due to his utter lack of any diplomacy related checks that it caused us quite some problems.
There is another scenario where your Charisma slowly deterioates due to desease. A Cha 7 might cause you to play part of the scenario unconscious.
In a third scenario I just managed to salvage my character after a failed mission by our group because I hadn't dumped Int or Cha. It gave me enough time to crawl back to a Pathfinder Lodge in a major city and get myself cured before a permanent effect would have set in and it would have been a write-off.
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2Jiggy: I think the score * 10 = IQ comes from an old version of D&D - possibly AD&D where it was mentioned as a guide to visualize the scores. I remember that is goes back a very long time - and never was mathematically accurate on the fringes as the IQ scale might peak around 10* average of 3d6 but the distribution of IQ is less flat.
Also this was done before racial modifiers have been used - making the scale even less appropriate nowadays.
Ah, so a not-that-great-in-the-first-place rule of thumb that's outdated by a few systems/decades. Got it. ;)
Back to dumping Charisma. All I can say is - in PFS play this is done at your own risk.
Amen, brother. After my most recent session (played with my 7 CHA fighter/wizard), I'm really glad that my next PC will have 14 CHA and some solid Diplomacy skills. Oy.
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Multiple dump stats is pretty extreme. Most of my characters have one dump stat of 7 or 8 so I can start with a 19 in their most important stat. It's just not worth the cost of going for that 20. If you start with the 19, you can boost it to 20 at level 4, pick up a belt/headband to up it to 22 by level 4 or 5, and you should do great with that. It just isn't worth the extra 4 points out of a 20 point build to go from 19 to 20.
Ryan is right that a 7 Str for a gunslinger is just a bad idea. You'll need more than that just to carry your weapons and ammo. And since gunslingers need to stay relatively close to the front line for a ranged combatant (compared to archers who can stay 100+ feet away all the time), you'll need some armor and a decent Con score. Cha would seem to be the one acceptable dump stat for that class, but admittedly, I don't know that much about gunslingers.
And Don, as others have said, you're wrong about the 7 int being that bad. I think the int score x 10 = IQ thing comes from 1st edition AD&D, IIRC, so I'm ok with the 7 int = 70 IQ, but that's nowhere near as dumb as you seem to think it is.
Back when we were teens, I had a step-brother for about 3 years (my dad's 2nd marriage didn't last very long) with an IQ around that level. He was in remedial classes in school, but he managed to get mostly passing grades. He could talk like a normal person, read, write, and do normal everyday things. He was a little bit of a dumb hick, and he'll never go to college or get a job that involves much thinking, but he's a normal, functional person who probably has some menial labor job now as an adult.
So that's the level of intelligence I think of when it comes to a 7 int. What Don described about barely being able to talk or remember how to load the gun properly every time would be more like a 3 or 4 int.
My first PFS character dumped charisma and apart from having fun insulting people occasionally it was rather frustrating as there were entire encounters where the best thing she could do for the mission was keep her mouth shut and do nothing.
All my characters since then have enough investment in Diplomacy to let me contribute (ie take part) even if I'm not the party face. Just like a character shouldn't completely suck in combat, they shouldn't completely suck out of it either, because it's boring.
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Now that Don's old-school chops have been sufficiently busted... ;)
Having multiple dump stats in PFS is extremely dangerous. My first (and so far, only) TPK has been the result of two such-made casters (brought down a pregen and much more reasonably-built PC as a result).
Pathfinders encounter a variety of challenges. A 4:2 dump-pump ratio leaves you really good at one thing, but as soon as you can't be in that single, narrow situation, you die.
One-trick ponies have short life spans in PFS.
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7 INT may not mean mentally disabled, but it does mean plenty dumb. You're not going to be winning too many games of checkers. Solving puzzles and figuring out mysteries is definitely going to be somebody else's job.
How high do you figure Derek Zoolander's INT is? What about the guys from Dumb and Dumber?
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7 INT may not mean mentally disabled, but it does mean plenty dumb. You're not going to be winning too many games of checkers. Solving puzzles and figuring out mysteries is definitely going to be somebody else's job.
Here's the facts:
Suppose you're faced with a series of 20 puzzles in a dungeon. Each requires a DC 12 INT check to solve.
The difference between the guy with 7 INT and the guy with 10 INT is exactly two rolls where the latter will solve the puzzle and the former won't. Two. Out of twenty.
That's the extent of the difference between 10 and 7 INT. Nothing more.
7 INT guy is going to solve seven of those puzzles all by himself. And for each of them, there's a 55% chance that 10 INT guy couldn't figure it out.
After enough time, both will solve all the puzzles. The guy with 7 INT will solve ALL the puzzles eventually, taking only a few rounds longer than his buddy.
That's what 7 INT means.
EDIT: Also, if an 18 INT wizard is taking 10 on his INT checks to play checkers, the guy with 7 INT will beat him in one-in-four games. If your understanding of 7 INT doesn't accommodate that fact, then you're wrong.
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I think the int score x 10 = IQ thing comes from 1st edition AD&D, IIRC
Yup, I'm 99% sure that it was in the 1E AD&D DMG. That said, that version also strongly emphasized the bell curve of stat distribution on 3d6...an IQ of 140 for an adult actually puts you in the 99th+ percentile, but that 1E rule of thumb would only make it a 14 Int. So, that rule of thumb is pretty flawed, anyway. :-)
I have three PFS characters. While I'm OK with having a stat or two on the lowish side, I don't put more than one stat below 10 (and that's pretty much true in any d20 game I play, not just PFS). My stat arrays:
Half-elf paladin: Str 16, Dex 10, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 16
Half-elf rogue: Str 11, Dex 18, Con 12, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 14
Human wizard: Str 8, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 18, Wis 10, Cha 10
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With 20 points, I don't have much 'need' for dump stats (something I've taught my niece and nephew.) It's nice in combat to have the str 20 int 7 cha 7 barbarian, but if you want to, well, do something besides smash, having a more even display is good.
My characters usually 'dump' wisdom (i.e. keeping it a 10). They spend skill points on perception and usually have strong will saves to balance. I don't have my folio handy, but I think Rey has a 10 wis, 11 strength, or something close to it. He's also a sage bloodline, so his Cha is 12.
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My next character's going to be something along the lines of 13/16/13/12/12/14 at first level (bumping STR and CON at 4th and 8th, respectively). Gonna have 2-3 levels of paladin, 3+ levels of ranger, and possibly some levels of inquisitor.
He's going to be a power-attacking full-BAB melee monster with a spiked chain, he's going to be an archer with Precise Shot and Rapid Shot, he's going to be a "face" with strong diplomacy, he's going to be a trap finder/disabler, and he's going to have saves in the double-digits really fast.
That's right, I'm going to try and break the game with stats ranging only from 12-16. ;)
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I just checked out my 8 PFS characters and found a total of 4 stats <10 between all of them.
Character 1 is a Human Wizard with Str. 7 - yes - I wanted that Int 20 to start with him
Str 7 causes you major problems if you want to stay light encumbrance. I only managed at low levels by having a backpack (containing the truly important stuff), no armor (I'm a wizard) and having a sack with less important stuff that I asked a fighter or dwarf to carry for me.
It is less of a problem once you have a handy haversack. And he is a Pathfinder Chronicler (1 level) as well as having a porter - that solves all carrying problems.
There was great rejoice when the first time he smashed an enemy with his quarterstaff - a mite.
Of eternal memory is when he went front line (after the main fighter ran through fear) and grappled (after a great roll) the BBE as he had run out of spells. [this was trying to buy time for the rest of the group but HE NEEDED HELP. Can't believe they left him grappling on his own for so long ...]
Character 2 is a Gnome Summoner
He has a Str of 9 which already helps a lot - in addition being small means some items are lighter. And he has an Eidolon that can carry a few items (provided it is summoned).
Also keep in mind the 9 is partially based on the race and would be an 11 before applying the race modifier.
Character 4 is a half-orc Barbarian
He has Int 8, Wis 8 (and Cha 12 - he is pretty intimidating). Getting 2 stats up high (Str and Con) can be a problem.
My latest character is a Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 14 Fighter. I actually spend 12, 12, 12 on the stats as it is a Rakhsasa spawn Lore Warden (-2 Wis, +2 Cha).
She is still a fighter - and can fight if necessary - but with Diplomacy and Intimidation being her best skills (not even taking into account Beast Mask if possible) she tries to avoid fighting or to demoralize enemies and only fights if this fails.
So I'm surely not someone who likes to go low on the stats.
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Re the OP, here's the stats for some of my chars:
- female human gunslinger/duelist: STR 8, DEX 19, CON 12, INT 14, WIS 10, CHA 12. I dropped her STR, like you, for the same reasons. I reckoned that she got by on her agility and wits, and a little bit of looks. She grabbed a porter to help with the load issues.
- male dwarf bard: STR 10, DEX 16, CON 12, INT 10, WIS 12, CHA 14. This is my only character with no negative stats, and it suits him perfectly. He's pure support for the other characters; has enough dex to shoot pretty good, enough con to not be afraid to take a hit, and enough charisma to speak confidently (but is still a dwarf, so can be brash at times).
- female half-elf druid/barbarian: STR 18, DEX 14, CON 15, INT 8, WIS 12, CHA 8. Ruukia is a savage outlander that's been estranged from any contact that wasn't with plants and animals her whole life. She never read books or spoke with others, hence the low int, and she has zero experience talking with others, so her cha could be dropped.
- elderly male elf fighter/monk: STR 7, DEX 19, CON 11, INT 14, WIS 16, CHA 7. This is my aging, master samurai character. He was a peerless swordsman once... long ago. But something happened that made him retire, blah blah. Anyway, the low str represents his age, and the high dex represents why he was once the best. His cha is represents not his looks, but his skill at talking and relating to others. He is often aloof and prefers brewing his tea and sharing tales of ancient civilizations or obscure facts (breadth of experience) than actually getting to know other people.
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To Pirate Frost the OP. Your stats are your stats. I would just like to point out through-out the thread the importance of CON.
I would think the base as far as utility you would get out of con in a point buy system would be 12.
What do you get at 12 Con an extra hit point from con a +1 on fort, most importantly the most over looked ability, a Negative -12 HP thresh hold.
Recently, a player in my area got killed 2x in less than 2 weeks. I gm'd one of the games. I found out afterwards the player playing a monk had a con of 10. Also at both times he was level 3 in a group playing a 4-5 tier game.
So to follow suit I will post my stat's may be hard since I have had some ability increases.
1 Jake the Rogue Elf 10 Scout 18/16/11/14/8/8 My first PFS character was very lucky to survive past my 1st level, bump con then dex.
2 Peterabu of Oppara Human Inquisitor of Erastil/Fighter 9/1
16/14/12/14/16/8 Bump dex then wis. Died from a one shot, at level 4
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Maybe you're right, but let me play devil's advocate a bit:
7 INT may not mean mentally disabled, but it does mean plenty dumb. You're not going to be winning too many games of checkers. Solving puzzles and figuring out mysteries is definitely going to be somebody else's job.Here's the facts:
Suppose you're faced with a series of 20 puzzles in a dungeon. Each requires a DC 12 INT check to solve.
The difference between the guy with 7 INT and the guy with 10 INT is exactly two rolls where the latter will solve the puzzle and the former won't. Two. Out of twenty.
That's the extent of the difference between 10 and 7 INT. Nothing more.
7 INT guy is going to solve seven of those puzzles all by himself. And for each of them, there's a 55% chance that 10 INT guy couldn't figure it out.
Well sure, but DC 12 puzzles are super easy. What about DC 28 puzzles? Mr. INT 10 (let's call him John Doe) has a 15% chance of figuring them out. Mr. INT 7 (let's call him Derek Zoolander) has a 0% chance.
It's similar for DC 29 and DC 30. Those are the levels of puzzles that John can sometimes get, but Derek just can't ever.
After enough time, both will solve all the puzzles. The guy with 7 INT will solve ALL the puzzles eventually, taking only a few rounds longer than his buddy.
That's what 7 INT means.
That's presuming that the puzzles allow infinite retries, i.e. taking 20. In that case, it's obvious that the difference isn't about solving DC 12 problems, but about DC 28-30 problems, like I mentioned.
But what if they don't allow retries? If that's the case, we should think about what average percentage of the puzzles John and Derek will get right on the first try.
Actually, this is pretty much exactly like a high school quiz. So let's talk about grades! (This is based on typical American-style grades, which go A B C D F in descending order, for those of you in other countries)
On 20 DC 12 skill checks, John needs a 2 or more, so he'll get 19 correct, for 95%. That's a solid A grade.
On those same 20 checks, Derek needs a 5 or more. He'll get 16 correct, 80%, for a B- grade. Bad, not still okay.
But wait a minute. 10 is supposed to be average Intelligence, and an average grade is supposed to be a C. If John's acing the quiz, then the quiz is too easy. So let's normalize this result by looking at a harder quiz, shall we?
75% is a basic C, so an accurate test should put John at 15 correct answers. So a normal quiz ought to be twenty DC 16 checks, where John needs a 6 or more
Derek needs a 9 or more to make a DC 16 check. If John gets 75% right, then Derek only gets 60% right. And 60% is an F.
So if John's a C student, Derek flunks.
EDIT: Also, if an 18 INT wizard is taking 10 on his INT checks to play checkers, the guy with 7 INT will beat him in one-in-four games. If your understanding of 7 INT doesn't accommodate that fact, then you're wrong.
Taking 10 is playing it safe, so Mr. 18 INT (let's call him Albert Einstein) is not really trying hard. Albert just makes what seem to be the obvious moves.
Derek *is* trying, and still only wins 25% of their games. And keep in mind that Derek will never win if he also takes it easy and just takes 10. He has to try hard, think about every move and hope he gets lucky.
But here's the real difference: in this example, neither Derek or Albert are actually good at checkers. They're playing it completely untrained. They've never studied or practiced; all they know are the rules.
Derek could practice, but if he really wants to improve, it going to take him just about all of his free time to do so. He's not going to have very many skill points, so if he puts one into Profession (checker player) each level, that means he's basically practicing checkers to the exclusion of everything else.
But if Albert decides that he wants to get better at checkers, he's got plenty of skill points to do so. Heck, he can study checkers while also spending time learning about nature, the planes, religion, magic, spellcraft, and architecture. Or he could study checkers, chess, go, poker, backgammon, blackjack, and shogi, all at the same time.
TL;DR: 7 INT may not mean 70 IQ, but it does mean you flunk out of high school!
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How do y'all run it, as a GM, when everyone in the party, except one, has dumped CHA? Should their nervousness/awkwardness/rudeness around people hinder the party as a whole?
Think about trying to make a deal with a charismatic guy (sorcerer frex) while this group of 4 ugly meats stand behind him flexing muscles, twirling daggers, picking their noses. You want that BMW? Let me throw in the seat covers for an additional 400 pp. At the very least, I figure the average citizen is going to be worried they are talking to the mob...
To the OP. I usually dump one stat because I like a challenge. Usually I take it to a physical stat (and XukXuk was really hard to play with 10 hp at 7th level, but we still tell his tale! :) I have built one character with a 20 by leaving several stats at 10 and taking a 9 (not yet played).
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To further add to the case for stat dumping, please consider that this is a group game. Grog the Beauty School Drop Out may never be able to hit a tn 20 linguistics check, but he only needs to make that check if the other 3 characters at the table also shared his love of eating paste well i. This isn't likely given a random assortment of adventurers, and a random assortment is the worst case scenario: more likely people will comp shop what characters they could bring to the campaign. You need to weight the already small difference in Grog the beauty school drop out's and joe schmoe the averages different chances of making the check against the odds that someone else isn't a lot more likely to succeed,
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My 5th level rogeuy human druid (original stats)
STR: 7 DEX: 14 CON: 14 INT: 14 WIS: 17+2 CHA: 7
He outsources his carrying capacity needs to his animal companion. He finds, sneaks, and disarms traps heals, and casts spells. the velociraptor does respectable melee damage and makes a heck of a tank. I think its fair that he asks someone else to be the face. He was concieved as an example of a non rogue rogue.
2nd level Gnome Cleric of the lantern king.
STR: 5 DEX: 14 CON: 16 INT: 10 WIS: 15 CHA: 17
Channel heavy cleric (hence the high cha) Has dual channeling (+ and -) and will pick up control undead at 3rd level so he can have his own undead dance troupe: being dead is NO excuse for being boring!
1st level (one adventure down) Tengu insuisitor (and probably fighter)
STR: 14 DEX: 16 CON: 12 INT: 10 WIS: 16 CHA: 8
Again,, dumping Cha. Probably not as hard as i should have mechanically, but i have in my head a jaunty lovable rogue with one of his own feathers in his cap (because what could be prettier?)
Mechanically all it is is a -1 to his diplomacy, which is rather irrelevant next to his class bonus and ranks.
Level 1 paladin (half orc) 1 adventure down - I made this guy to try PFS. Because of some of the rules around first steps being confusing i made the druid in a hurry and found his skills worked better in pfs
Is a combat reflexes pole arm fighter that was heading for dragon disiple.
STR: 18 DEX: 14 CON: 12 INT: 7 WIS: 12 CHA: 14
Dumped in. Mechanically from a 7 int to a 10 int is 4 points: thats an expensive skill point since i only get 2 per level anyway.
From a role playing perspective it allows the party to do things behind the paladins back with plausible deniability
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How do y'all run it, as a GM, when everyone in the party, except one, has dumped CHA? Should their nervousness/awkwardness/rudeness around people hinder the party as a whole?
In a home-game, there mere presence of them will have a negative impact on social interaction. However, in PFS, players rarely have control who they are playing with. So I only penalize the results if the dump-Cha characters actively do something.
Dealing with extreme stat arrays is a crap-shoot in PFS. Some scenarios "all brawn, no brains" work just fine. In fact, they improve your chance of success. Other times, you're destined for failure when the best diplomacy character has no ranks and a Cha of 10, maybe 12.
It also depends on the other characters at the table. I prefer balanced arrays, but when I sit with a group of "elites" I tend to fall behind in a lot of things.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Let's say that the common folk have attributes that fall on a normal 3-18 curve. A cooper with an Intelligence of 10 is at the 50th percentile; half the people in the village are smarter than he is, while half are his level of intelligence or dumber.
The miller with an Intelligence of 7 is in the 17th percentile. 83 out of every 100 villagers is smarter than the miller. He's not the town imbecile, but he's probably got a reputation for being otnay ootay ightbray.
Now, I would imagine that the Pathfinder Society expects people to be a cut above the general rabble. So, Pirate Frost's gunslinger probably didn't impress Aram Zey when she knocked at the door to the Grand Lodge with a note pinned to her tunic reading "She was found wandering the docks, claiming she wants to join the Society. If you accept her, my agents will sneak ground glass into your cough syrup. Much love, Grandmaster Torch".
To make matters worse, she's not just deficient in one arena. The Master of Swords is concerned that she can't carry an empty treasure chest the length of the academy grounds. Back in her home village, again, 83% of all the people her age and stature were stronger than she. She's not the weakest teenager back home -- that honor goes to the kid who almost wasted away to death a couple of years ago; he can't defend himself with much more than a short-sword held in both hands -- but she's pretty close.
So what does she say to the Grand Lodge when they note that she's both dense as stone and strong as a dried-out weasel? Not much; she's acutely shy and mumbles a lot, not making eye contact with people. Among villagers, she's 25th percentile in personality. Among the powerful and flamboyant Pathfinders? Somewhat less than that.
But she's pretty perceptive and flows like water itself when someone swings at her. Remember River Tam in a fight? Like that, except weak as a kitten.
"Somebody like that, they can shoot three people with three bullets, simple as that."
"Which is good, Captain. Because I don't think she can carry more than three loads for her weapon."
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I've got a character who went with dex 7 wis 7. I wanted to play someone who often missed out on things, was always a hair slow to react, but made up for it in other ways. He can pass knowledge checks like none other (take 10 for a 38 Kn: anything), cast spells, and hulk out in melee.
Another character of mine has four 14s and a 12 at first level. Long story short: stats don't always matter most. What your character can offer the table (both skills, personality, and backstory) do.
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I break the rules. Sorry.
I normally ask the party to have a single point person when diplomacy is involved (obviously some situations this doesn't work). That person rolls diplomacy, everyone else rolls to assist (if they want to). If those assisting fail their assist roll by 5 or more they hurt the party and I impose a -2 penalty to the party's diplomacy.
Of course, I let everyone (players) talk and come up with cool stuff to say and add circumstance bonuses and penalties that I don't discuss.
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I break the rules. Sorry.
I normally ask the party to have a single point person when diplomacy is involved (obviously some situations this doesn't work). That person rolls diplomacy, everyone else rolls to assist (if they want to). If those assisting fail their assist roll by 5 or more they hurt the party and I impose a -2 penalty to the party's diplomacy.
Of course, I let everyone (players) talk and come up with cool stuff to say and add circumstance bonuses and penalties that I don't discuss.
More or less what I do - I just haven't ever advertised it.
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How do y'all run it, as a GM, when everyone in the party, except one, has dumped CHA? Should their nervousness/awkwardness/rudeness around people hinder the party as a whole?
The same way I run it when the fighter swings his sword while surrounded by weaklings or when the wizard casts his spell while surrounded by idiots.
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Table of 6 with no party face has a d6 rolled for who ends up tackling the diplomacy (with RP reasons why the NPC picked them to talk to). If they do have a party face, I roll a d10, giving the extra numbers on it to the party face character.
Dumping charisma can and should be a bad thing. Recoverable, and the face can assist on the rolls, and often leads to some absolute hilarity.
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Let's say that the common folk have attributes that fall on a normal 3-18 curve.
I like your post overall (you definitely know how to do storytelling!), but your premise is incorrect. The common folk have scores ranging from 8-13. Heroes range from 8-15 (note that the low-end score does not change between commoners and heroes).
As I stated upthread, this means that a stat dumped to 8 is in line with one-sixth of the population of humans. A stat dumped to 7 is actually better than one-sixth of the population of other races. I.e., the little girl in your example is actually more charismatic than one-sixth of dwarves, and stronger than one-sixth of gnomes and halflings.
Last I checked, dwarven society was not hampered by the majority of their population having single-digit CHA. One third of the race is either on par with or worse than that girl. So in Pathfinder, 7 CHA is something that one-third of an entire race could have and still be a functioning society. Would society function if a third of the population was as you described that girl? If not, then you're wrong.
Same with STR: most gnomes and halflings have single-digit STR. One third of them are as weak or weaker than the girl. Last I checked, they could wield medium-sized shortswords one-handed. As for dragging the empty chest, it must have been made of lead: that girl can run at 3x her base speed while carrying 70lbs, can lift 140lbs off the ground and walk around with it, and can drag 280lbs across the Lodge grounds. Apparently the Society tests initiates by having them drag 300lb empty chests around? If you picture 7 STR as so weak you can't hold a weapon properly or drag a box around, you're wrong.
Oh, and her INT? She could have an engineering degree if she wanted. Sure, she'd need to devote all her study time to that one field (one rank per level in Profession [engineer]), but she'd be brilliant at it (it's based on WIS) and she could even take Skill Focus. Alternatively, she could study to become a linguist. She could become fluent in reading, writing and speaking multiple languages (13 by retirement, including common). If your idea of 7 INT wouldn't allow someone to be fluent in multiple languages or be a skilled engineer, then you're wrong.
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TLDR: PFS GMs need to treat ability scores as meaning what the rules say they mean, not what makes them feel justified about how they already treat their players.
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I was thinking about the Charming aspect, but when thinking about how she is still young, I still wouldn't put her past 10 at most. Not to mention kids generally aren't that charismatic. The strength part I could see being a little higher, but even a athletic girl isn't very strong.
I mostly did wisdom for the grit so she could be more defensive if needed and I know a few people who are pretty wise even for their young age, the background story I have for her is she learned quickly to look out for her self, so she became wise quickly to avoid taking on more than she could handle.
First of all, I believe the FAQ covers starting age, and you need to have a starting age within the range the Core Rulebook lists, which I believe is no younger than 16 for a human.
Now to your question.
Man of Mystery archetype changes grit to Charisma.
I would imagine that a young female pistolero is more likely to have less wisdom than intelligence.
Young women are not stupid. They just aren't usually world-wise (of course depending on their environment I suppose).
Its actually kind of insulting to women in general to assume that a young woman would be stupid because she's young.
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7 INT may not mean mentally disabled, but it does mean plenty dumb. You're not going to be winning too many games of checkers. Solving puzzles and figuring out mysteries is definitely going to be somebody else's job.Here's the facts:
Suppose you're faced with a series of 20 puzzles in a dungeon. Each requires a DC 12 INT check to solve.
The difference between the guy with 7 INT and the guy with 10 INT is exactly two rolls where the latter will solve the puzzle and the former won't. Two. Out of twenty.
That's the extent of the difference between 10 and 7 INT. Nothing more.
7 INT guy is going to solve seven of those puzzles all by himself. And for each of them, there's a 55% chance that 10 INT guy couldn't figure it out.
After enough time, both will solve all the puzzles. The guy with 7 INT will solve ALL the puzzles eventually, taking only a few rounds longer than his buddy.
That's what 7 INT means.
EDIT: Also, if an 18 INT wizard is taking 10 on his INT checks to play checkers, the guy with 7 INT will beat him in one-in-four games. If your understanding of 7 INT doesn't accommodate that fact, then you're wrong.
Yeah, but you can't boil down subjective roleplay into objective statistics.
Anything that's at 7 means a fairly extreme amount of weakness in that area. Its the threshold that Paizo determined a hero (before racial modifiers) shouldn't go below. Because well heroes are heroic, and those that are heroic aren't ridiculously weak in one area, let alone 4 (I have a hard time believing that the Lodge would graduate a 4/20 character anyways).
Think 7 Int is Caramon, and 7 Con is Raislin.
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TLDR: PFS GMs need to treat ability scores as meaning what the rules say they mean, not what makes them feel justified about how they already treat their players.
When I run you at one of my tables Jiggy, you more often than not do a good job at roleplaying your character's stats. Maybe not as extreme (or sometimes more extreme) than I might, but you make the attempt to play your stats as you've devised them.
With a low Charisma, you play your Tian as a pompous, elitist, jerk.
Its fun. And I try to have my NPCs riff off that when its appropriate to do so.
But not all players care to roleplay their character's stats as appropriate.
They like to try and be the face with a 7 charisma, and then would get all huffy when the NPCs don't take to them.
They are the first one to jump up and assist the fighter who's trying to lift a portcullis. Really? Weaky-Mcweakersen? You are going to try and help lift the portcullis? Don't you think you'd be better off holding up the wall over there?
Or the 7 Dex guy who tries to do acrobatics in combat all the time (despite having a 3 in Acrobatics do to low Dex and armor check penalty) to avoid AoO's.
Just because the rules say you can, or the statistics support a potential success on the effort, doesn't mean its good roleplay to actually do it.
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Yeah, but you can't boil down subjective roleplay into objective statistics.
Now are we talking about subjective roleplay? Because I thought we were talking about how GMs would make a situation mechanically more difficult just from someone with a dumped stat being present. I thought we were giving examples that directly contradicted numbers in the Core Rulebook.
If a GM wants to subjectively describe a PC's frail musculature, fine. But if he tells them they can't drag a 100-pound item across the floor when their 7 STR says they can drag more than double that, the GM is cheating.
If a GM wants to subjectively describe a PC's timid persona, fine. But if he tells them that their very presence is negatively impacting somebody else's nearby skill check, that GM is cheating.
So let's be clear on what we're talking about, lest we talk past each other and get nowhere.
Anything that's at 7 means a fairly extreme amount of weakness in that area. Its the threshold that Paizo determined a hero (before racial modifiers) shouldn't go below.
If you can't go below a 7 and still be heroic, then that means the guy with a 7 is still heroic.
EDIT:
Think 7 Int is Caramon, and 7 Con is Raislin.
People need to stop using example characters I'm not familiar with. :P
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While I, personally, don't tend to drop more than one stat below 10 on any one character, how a player builds their character is their own business. I'll admit, I find some builds and concepts a wee bit ridiculous, but that's my opinion. Just as someone might look at my "balanced" characters and scoff at not having more than one stat above 16 at level 1, I'm likely to look at their characters and roll my eyes at their "min/maxing".
What I feel is important is that players use both the good and bad stats of their characters. For example, my Elven Witch has an 8 str. He can wield a sword just fine, but being as that he also happens to have an int of 26 (at level 11) his spells and hexes are usually plenty enough to let him hold his own in combat. He doesn't need to carry heavy things because he has a big strong Dragon Disciple to do that for him. I dislike stat penalties beyond just a simple -1, so I usually don't build my characters like that unless I have an RP reason for it. However, a low stat score isn't insurmountable, as there are always ways of compensating.
Got a low strength? Get a bag of holding or a pack animal (or a burly squire) to haul your gear. Just be aware that str checks aren't your forte and be prepared to suck at swimming and climbing without ways to compensate.
It's not the GM's job to penalize a player for having dump-stats (at least in PFS) for no good reason. However, if your faction mission requires you to do something without anyone else noticing and your stats/skills aren't up to the task? Tough cookies. Find a creative solution, or a way to compensate through items/spells/etc.
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Yeah, but you can't boil down subjective roleplay into objective statistics.Now are we talking about subjective roleplay? Because I thought we were talking about how GMs would make a situation mechanically more difficult just from someone with a dumped stat being present. I thought we were giving examples that directly contradicted numbers in the Core Rulebook.
If a GM wants to subjectively describe a PC's frail musculature, fine. But if he tells them they can't drag a 100-pound item across the floor when their 7 STR says they can drag more than double that, the GM is cheating.
If a GM wants to subjectively describe a PC's timid persona, fine. But if he tells them that their very presence is negatively impacting somebody else's nearby skill check, that GM is cheating.
So let's be clear on what we're talking about, lest we talk past each other and get nowhere.
Anything that's at 7 means a fairly extreme amount of weakness in that area. Its the threshold that Paizo determined a hero (before racial modifiers) shouldn't go below.If you can't go below a 7 and still be heroic, then that means the guy with a 7 is still heroic.
Lets be careful when we throw the cheating word around eh?
There is enough ambiguity in the rules that allows for certain GM calls.
If the 7 Charisma character just sits back and doesn't try to talk to anyone, then yeah, probably not going to adversely affect things.
But if Mr. Ugly and Socially Unacceptable keeps interrupting Dashing Guy, then yeah, good roleplay by the GM indicates that the NPCs aren't going to deal with that too well.
You have to allow the GM to make subjective calls based on circumstances. Otherwise, you are asking a GM to be a computer and spit numbers out at you.