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What is the proper way of using the Empower Spell metamagic feat?
Say we were empowering the lightning bolt spell.
1) Would you roll 10d6, and multiply the result by x1.5?
2) Or do you roll 15d6?
Which method is more proper?
Now, what if the lightning bolt was ALSO maximized?
1a) 60 + (10d6 / 2)
2a) 60 + 5d6
But what if we threw in intensify spell rather than maximize? Would you intensify it and then empower it?
1b) 15d6 * 1.5
2b) 20d6
3b) Something else
Well, there's really no significant difference between 10d6 x 1.5 and 15d6.
Personally, I usually do 10d6 x 1.5 just like you would against an enemy who was vulnerable to a particular energy type.
Regarding intensify spell, the feat simply increases the cap for the number of dice rolled. So, an empowered intensified lightning bolt would be 15d6 x 1.5 (assuming you're at least a 15th level caster).
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The way I do it:
Empower: 10d6 * 1.5
If you do it the other way, you would have trouble when needing to roll an odd number of initial dice (for instance, 9d6 empowered would become 13.5d6)
Maximize + Empower: 60 + 10d6 * 0.5
Intensify + Empower: 15d6 * 1.5 (assuming a 15th level caster)
The way I do it:
Empower: 10d6 * 1.5
If you do it the other way, you would have trouble when needing to roll an odd number of initial dice (for instance, 9d6 empowered would become 13.5d6)
Maximize + Empower: 60 + 10d6 * 0.5
Intensify + Empower: 15d6 * 1.5 (assuming a 15th level caster)
+1
there was an example in the 3.5 phi on how to use empower. I think it implied multiply the variable number by 1.5
it also said in the example that with maximize empower you still roll the random portion for the empower.
so 10d6 empower maximized fireball would be 60 + 50% of 10d6
the part I always found unclear is what the definition of variable number was. ie a lvl 5 clw empowered is it 1d8 x1.5 or is it 1d8 +5 x 1.5
An excellent point Are. 13.5 dice does seem awkward to roll.
Well, a player in my game uses d3s when he needs to roll half a d6. It's not quite right (2d3 average 4 whereas 1d6 averages 3.5), but close enough for the times when it comes up.
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there was an example in the 3.5 phi on how to use empower. I think it implied multiply the variable number by 1.5
it also said in the example that with maximize empower you still roll the random portion for the empower.
so 10d6 empower maximized fireball would be 60 + 50% of 10d6
the part I always found unclear is what the definition of variable number was. ie a lvl 5 clw empowered is it 1d8 x1.5 or is it 1d8 +5 x 1.5
In 3.5, the variable would have been (1d8+5) x 1.5. Examples using magic missile in the Player's Handbook confirm this.
However, this has changed in Pathfinder to (1d8 x 1.5) + 5. The Pathfinder game developers have confirmed this.
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pooh that's good to know.
Do the Dice from empower count for things like the Dragon Sorcerer's +1/die bonus damage?
or are they "phantom" dice just used to get a number for the empowered part of the spell?
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1d8+5 x 1.5 for the win.
Mathematically that statement is equal to saying 1d8 + 7.5 Which I think is not what you mean but still an interesting reading of the feat.
This is another good point as to why the 1.5 bonus should be figured with a trusty calculator and not even more dice. Also:
Do the Dice from empower count for things like the Dragon Sorcerer's +1/die bonus damage?or are they "phantom" dice just used to get a number for the empowered part of the spell?
- Does the half-die get a full +1 or only a +.5?
How come empower+maximize doesnt give max(10d6*1.5)=90 ?
Because the Maximize Spell feat specifically says that's not how the combination works. Otherwise, I'd have no problem with that either. It's a +5, after all :)
Do the Dice from empower count for things like the Dragon Sorcerer's +1/die bonus damage?
or are they "phantom" dice just used to get a number for the empowered part of the spell?
There aren't additional dice. You roll Xd6 and multiply the result by 1.5.
I have always wondered by people have converted the simple math of xd6 times 1.5 to adding extra dice. Boggle!There aren't additional dice. You roll Xd6 and multiply the result by 1.5.Do the Dice from empower count for things like the Dragon Sorcerer's +1/die bonus damage?
or are they "phantom" dice just used to get a number for the empowered part of the spell?
IIRC that was the official errata'd way of doing it in 3.5.
I hate that the Paizo game designers don't see 6-13 (1d8+5) as a variable. It totally is!
The +5 SHOULD be empowered.
...so it could simply be an oversight on Paizo's part.
Sadly, the Paizo designers have been quite clear that, that is not the case.
If you do a d3 just make 1,2=1 / 3,4=2 / 5,6=3. Easy to do with any half d?.
Yes, that certainly works to get 1d3, but the problem is that 1d3 is not the same as (1d6 / 2) which should have an average of 1.75.
If you do a d3 just make 1,2=1 / 3,4=2 / 5,6=3. Easy to do with any half d?.Yes, that certainly works to get 1d3, but the problem is that 1d3 is not the same as (1d6 / 2) which should have an average of 1.75.
That depends on what rounding rule you use for your /2. If you round halves up, then the average should be 2 (and the 1d3 simulates it exactly). If you round halves down, then the average should be 1.5. If you round halves to the nearest odd number (or randomly choose which way to round halves), then you average 1.75.
That depends on what rounding rule you use for your /2. If you round halves up, then the average should be 2 (and the 1d3 simulates it exactly). If you round halves down, then the average should be 1.5. If you round halves to the nearest odd number (or randomly choose which way to round halves), then you average 1.75.If you do a d3 just make 1,2=1 / 3,4=2 / 5,6=3. Easy to do with any half d?.Yes, that certainly works to get 1d3, but the problem is that 1d3 is not the same as (1d6 / 2) which should have an average of 1.75.
Actually - that's not quite right in general.
The problem comes when you try to roll multiples which should always give you the same average.
For example - if you want to roll (20d6 /2) you should get an average of 35 (3.5 for each d6 times 20 then halved).
On the other hand, if you roll 20d3 you'll get an average of 40. If you round *each die* as you mention, you'll either get an average of 30 (rounding each one down) or 40 (rounding each one up). But neither is technically correct.
That depends on what rounding rule you use for your /2. If you round halves up, then the average should be 2 (and the 1d3 simulates it exactly). If you round halves down, then the average should be 1.5. If you round halves to the nearest odd number (or randomly choose which way to round halves), then you average 1.75.If you do a d3 just make 1,2=1 / 3,4=2 / 5,6=3. Easy to do with any half d?.Yes, that certainly works to get 1d3, but the problem is that 1d3 is not the same as (1d6 / 2) which should have an average of 1.75.Actually - that's not quite right in general.
The problem comes when you try to roll multiples which should always give you the same average.
For example - if you want to roll (20d6 /2) you should get an average of 35 (3.5 for each d6 times 20 then halved).
On the other hand, if you roll 20d3 you'll get an average of 40. If you round *each die* as you mention, you'll either get an average of 30 (rounding each one down) or 40 (rounding each one up). But neither is technically correct.
Oh, I agree, it's less and less of an issue when you have multiples -- but you still have to decide whether to round halves up or down, and it still has an effect on the average.
Again, choose to round halves to the nearest odd, and your average comes out much better.
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That depends on what rounding rule you use for your /2. If you round halves up, then the average should be 2 (and the 1d3 simulates it exactly). If you round halves down, then the average should be 1.5. If you round halves to the nearest odd number (or randomly choose which way to round halves), then you average 1.75.If you do a d3 just make 1,2=1 / 3,4=2 / 5,6=3. Easy to do with any half d?.Yes, that certainly works to get 1d3, but the problem is that 1d3 is not the same as (1d6 / 2) which should have an average of 1.75.
Per Pathfinder RAW you round down:
Rounding: Occasionally the rules ask you to round a result or value. Unless otherwise stated, always round down. For example, if you are asked to take half of 7, the result would be 3.
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In 3.5, the variable would have been (1d8+5) x 1.5. Examples using magic missile in the Player's Handbook confirm this.
However, this has changed in Pathfinder to (1d8 x 1.5) + 5. The Pathfinder game developers have confirmed this.
Can you link to the confirmation please?
It kinda makes me sad. I like my empowered magic missile.
In 3.5, the variable would have been (1d8+5) x 1.5. Examples using magic missile in the Player's Handbook confirm this.
However, this has changed in Pathfinder to (1d8 x 1.5) + 5. The Pathfinder game developers have confirmed this.
Can you link to the confirmation please?
It kinda makes me sad. I like my empowered magic missile.
I do remember it because it made my sad when I saw it, then I remembered I am the DM so I houseruled it. I will try to find it again, but my search-fu has been failing.
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It would be (1d6x1.5) +5
1d6 is the variable potion, and it is the only part that gets increased. The bonus from 1/2 your level is not increased by Empower Spell. Same goes for Magic Missile.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
I'm going to miss my empowered fire shields. *cries*
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Considering that he later goes on to say:
Hey there folks,
Just one quick note. Lets not bog down this preview thread in a rules discussion at the moment. There will be plenty of time to work it out once the game is released. Until we get an FAQ, or something similar, up and running, I would prefer to keep things light.
For those society players out there, I doubt that Josh would consider this thread a source of official rulings. We need something more concrete than that...
Anyway.. I am going to need to look at this particular issue a bit more closely, so just hang in there. We are now less than two weeks to release.
And that's all I can find as far as official comments go. I've flagged the OP for the FAQ, and we can hope that they are concerned enough to weigh in. As a player who plays a wizard in PFS, I hope they do.
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Variable: going to change with each casting.
Static: stays the same with each casting.
(at least how I see it)
magic missiles: 1d4 (variable) +1 (static) per missile.
Which do you think that Empower will change, considering it says:
Benefit: All variable, numeric effects of an empowered spell are increased by half.
Anyway, run it how you wish, it is your game (unless you are PFS). At least with Magic missile, you are only talking about a +1 damage to run it as (3d4+3)*1.5 instead of (3d4*1.5)+3
I hate that the Paizo game designers don't see 6-13 (1d8+5) as a variable. It totally is!
The +5 SHOULD be empowered.
The "Paizo Game Designers" actually confirmed both ways, and then, as Trent pointed out, basically left it to the GM.
There basically is no game reason to not allow the +50% to include static portions of variables effects. At best they are still barely worthwhile to do (with the possible exception of magic missile). You certainly wouldn't cast an empowered cure light wounds instead of a cure serious wounds. Empowered Cure Serious instead of Breath of Life? Barely better until level 16. Empowered Fire Shield is neat, but hardly a game killer for a 6th level spell.
The "Paizo Game Designers" actually confirmed both ways, and then, as Trent pointed out, basically left it to the GM.I hate that the Paizo game designers don't see 6-13 (1d8+5) as a variable. It totally is!
The +5 SHOULD be empowered.
Yeah, but one of said designers has seniority, thus making his rule take precedent as far as official rulings are concerned. Sadly, he ruled against my interpretation.
Yeah, but one of said designers has seniority, thus making his rule take precedent as far as official rulings are concerned. Sadly, he ruled against my interpretation.
It was the same designer both times - no seniority involved. Run it how you like.
Yeah, but one of said designers has seniority, thus making his rule take precedent as far as official rulings are concerned. Sadly, he ruled against my interpretation.It was the same designer both times - no seniority involved. Run it how you like.
He never said anything to cancel out the statement that only dice get multiplied.
What he said was:For those society players out there, I doubt that Josh would consider this thread a source of official rulings. We need something more concrete than that...
Anyway.. I am going to need to look at this particular issue a bit more closely, so just hang in there. We are now less than two weeks to release.
However he never got back to the issue for the society players.
RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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I hate that the Paizo game designers don't see 6-13 (1d8+5) as a variable. It totally is!
The +5 SHOULD be empowered.
The "Paizo Game Designers" actually confirmed both ways, and then, as Trent pointed out, basically left it to the GM.
There basically is no game reason to not allow the +50% to include static portions of variables effects. At best they are still barely worthwhile to do (with the possible exception of magic missile). You certainly wouldn't cast an empowered cure light wounds instead of a cure serious wounds. Empowered Cure Serious instead of Breath of Life? Barely better until level 16. Empowered Fire Shield is neat, but hardly a game killer for a 6th level spell.
One reason might be the relationship between maximize and empower. Using fireshield as an example:
Norm emp Maxlvl 8: normal 11.5, empowered 17.25, maximized 14
lvl 12: normal 15.5, empowered 23.25, maximized 18
lvl 15: normal 18.5, empowered 37.5, maximized 21
At every level at which you could cast fire shield, the 7th level spell would be worse than the 6th level spell.
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One reason might be the relationship between maximize and empower. Using fireshield as an example:
Norm emp Max
lvl 8: normal 11.5, empowered 17.25, maximized 14
lvl 12: normal 15.5, empowered 23.25, maximized 18
lvl 15: normal 18.5, empowered 37.5, maximized 21At every level at which you could cast fire shield, the 7th level spell would be worse than the 6th level spell.
winning explanation ! (also works with the cure spell series...)
Vrischik
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And yes, this is after a discussion with Jason that included talking about his earlier "dice only, no bonuses" ruling pre-publication.
So it is the year 2020. And still no one gets the "empower spell" spell. I am ol' school DnD, new to pathfinder, n u all r driving me crazy. So lets do the literature evaluation before the actual math.
EMPOWER SPELL defined is: ALL variable, (note the comma) numeric (adjective) effects of an empowered spell (the spell u r casting) are increased by half. INCLUDING BONUSES (which means it has a + before the number) to those (meaning 1 or more) dice rolls.
Definitions:
Variable- not consistent or having a fixed pattern. Liable to change and/or be changed or adapted.
Not the way WotC and Paizo have been using "variable" in this context.
Variable effect: This effect is determined by a die roll, including modifiers thereto. For example, "deals 15d8 damage" is a variable, as is "deals 15d8+15 damage."
This is contrasted with fixed effect: "deals 50 damage" or "reduces you to 1 hp.")
Chill touch has both: {1d6 negative energy damage - variable} and {1 Str damage - fixed}.
So kiddos what this means is if the number is set (i.e. d3, d4, d6, d8, d10, etc.) It can not be effected. However if the number before that dice such as a (1) when working with a 1d8 roll can be changed such as 1d8/caster lvl. And you are lvl 15. It becomes a 15d8 + 7d8 = 22d8 roll. Always round down when halves are not even.
No. It's floor {15d8 x 1.5}. You roll to determine the variable, then multiply it.
Similarly, a maxpower for this spell would be 120 + floor {15d8 x 0.5}.Now if that 1d8/caster lvl has a +5 bonus, the bonus is halved rounded down and becomes +7. So your equation at lvl 15 casting a spell of 1d8+5/lvl of caster would look like this, 22d8+7. So basically your variable is when caster lvl or + bonuses apply to your initial spell.
Again, no; it'd be floor {(15d8 + 5) x 1.5}.
Let's take an example of a spell that, instead of rolling for damage, deals 2/level damage. "2/level" is NOT a variable effect, because there is no variable (ie, randomness) involved in it.
Another example:
Unerring Weapon- This spell causes a weapon to veer closer to vital areas, improving the result of a critical threat. This transmutation grants a +2 bonus on attack rolls to confirm critical hits plus 1 additional point per four caster lvls (maximum total bonus +7). Now do you remember that part in empower spell feat. INCLUDING bonuses. This means a lvl 8 spell caster can give a +4 bonus normally. But with empower spell feat it becomes a +6 bonus. Maximum using empower spell rounded down is +10 bonus to an attack roll.
"ABSOTIVELY AND POSILUTELY NOT!" In this case, you have a different problem: you're conflating two notions of the term "bonus".
When the empower spell feat says that it includes bonuses, it means that includes any bonuses and other modifiers that being applied to the variable effect.
Consider the Evoker school arcana, which adds max(1, evoker_level/2) to your damage with evocation spells. If you apply this to the first missile of a magic missile, then it is an included bonus on a variable effect: that missile empowers to (for example) floor{(1d4+6) x 1.5}, while the others empower to floor{(1d4+1) x 1.5}.
Unerring weapon doesn't *have* a variable effect; its effect is (2, +floor (caster_lv/4)). The fact that it grants a bonus has no bearing on its lack of variable effect; it can't be empowered.
Note empower spells doesn't work with spells that give +1 bonuses only. Bonuses must be +2 or higher, and the effect must be to a rolled dice. It will work with fireball but not flaming sphere. Will work with bulls strength but not mage armor.
Flaming sphere deals 3d6 fire damage every time it tries to roll into someone, Reflex negates. "3d6 fire damage" is a variable effect and is thus subject to empower.
Bull's strength has a numeric effect of 4. This is not a variable effect and thus cannot be empowered.
Not just Paizo's practice either. The last time empower spell worked on bull's strength was D&D 3.0, when it gave a +1d4+1 enhancement bonus. Gummyslayer's info does not derive from D&D 3.x or from PF.
All that necromantic energy to raise the thread, only to get it wrong.
So it is the year 2020. And still no one gets the "empower spell" spell. I am ol' school DnD, new to pathfinder, n u all r driving me crazy. So lets do the literature evaluation before the actual math.
EMPOWER SPELL defined is: ALL variable, (note the comma) numeric (adjective) effects of an empowered spell (the spell u r casting) are increased by half. INCLUDING BONUSES (which means it has a + before the number) to those (meaning 1 or more) dice rolls.
Definitions:
Variable- not consistent or having a fixed pattern. Liable to change and/or be changed or adapted.
Numerical- relating to or expressed as a number or numbers.
So kiddos what this means is if the number is set (i.e. d3, d4, d6, d8, d10, etc.) It can not be effected. However if the number before that dice such as a (1) when working with a 1d8 roll can be changed such as 1d8/caster lvl. And you are lvl 15. It becomes a 15d8 + 7d8 = 22d8 roll. Always round down when halves are not even. Now if that 1d8/caster lvl has a +5 bonus, the bonus is halved rounded down and becomes +7. So your equation at lvl 15 casting a spell of 1d8+5/lvl of caster would look like this, 22d8+7. So basically your variable is when caster lvl or + bonuses apply to your initial spell. Another example:
Unerring Weapon- This spell causes a weapon to veer closer to vital areas, improving the result of a critical threat. This transmutation grants a +2 bonus on attack rolls to confirm critical hits plus 1 additional point per four caster lvls (maximum total bonus +7). Now do you remember that part in empower spell feat. INCLUDING bonuses. This means a lvl 8 spell caster can give a +4 bonus normally. But with empower spell feat it becomes a +6 bonus. Maximum using empower spell rounded down is +10 bonus to an attack roll.
Note empower spells doesn't work with spells that give +1 bonuses only. Bonuses must be +2 or higher, and the effect must be to a rolled dice. It will work with fireball but not flaming sphere. Will work with bulls strength but not mage armor.
Hope i made it...
That's a unique interpretation, but it doesn't agree with the FAQ nor any Paizo rules designer post I've ever read.