Reign of Winter (Inactive)

Game Master Just a Mort

Lol. Yeah Lorewardens...I'm actually handling Greta's level up. I don't personally feel you guys need any more beatsticks so maybe I'll get to do something funky instead.

What no more beatsticks? Not that we really need them, we talk our way out of more fights, maybe she should be a bard...

No bards for Joo. One of you go roll up one if you want ;)

But seriously having spent most of your life as someone without hands really limits your character options. As I said the 6 HD sort of kills any kind of caster outright.

If you have monster levels it's really better to be some kind of fighter/barbarian or general melee dude.

Paladin? Not by a long shot. Ranger - a bit weird trying to set up a camp or a campfire without hands huh?

Monk! (Yeah, not really...)

As for no hands, there is always still spell.

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There are selfish bard archetypes that don't buff the party, like the archeologist.

Otherwise, you are probably looking at Rogue or Brawler. Brawler with the martial flexibility makes for an interesting combo, but the power is heavily tied to how well you know the feats.

Still spell(+1 spell level) + eschew components. What a pain...

Monk...don't you need a monastery?

Rogue is good if you have multiple attacks and can pounce(I.e you're a leopard or tiger).

Then you take scout archetype, bite, claw, claw, rake, rake all with sneak attacks.

Brawler - I don't really study melee feats, so I wouldn't play a class that requires to do it on the fly.

Slayer - I'm not familiar with that class.

Alchemist!!!

No. I'm very sure Greta isn't into hallucinogens, and Dr Hyde style mutations. Even if you can grow hands.

And I can't touch a bomb with a 10 ft pole. They have NO PLACE in D&D!

I can't touch guns either :(

Flying tiger?

Should I use that mini instead?

lol idk

I think the aerial template is really cool, but man did I feel dirty using it for the first time. I feel like im cheesing :/

I think it's fine really. Good for pounce chargers, but Aerial has limitations to what you can apply it to. Later levels you're looking at more outsiders on the list, which you can't apply it to(nor do you need to since they can fly by themselves). Also you're giving up your smite damage(and DR bypass) for mobility.

You did pay the price, so there's nothing wrong getting some well-deserved rewards

Still spell(+1 spell level) + eschew components. What a pain...

Monk...don't you need a monastery?

Rogue is good if you have multiple attacks and can pounce(I.e you're a leopard or tiger).

Then you take scout archetype, bite, claw, claw, rake, rake all with sneak attacks.

Brawler - I don't really study melee feats, so I wouldn't play a class that requires to do it on the fly.

Slayer - I'm not familiar with that class.

Monk requires lawful alignment. That is it.

A monk who becomes nonlawful cannot gain new levels as a monk but retains all monk abilities.

Rogue is skill points. Lore Warden gave all Int based skills as class skills. The debilitating strike is also nice. Really depends on how good her Dexterity is though.

Brawler does require that you know your feat prerequisites. Given the above statement, probably do want to scratch that off the list.

Slayer is a Ranger/Rogue with full BAB from Advance Class Guide. 6 + Int skills. Ability to get Ranger Combat Styles. Sneak Attack.

this is easy! take fighter with the 'unbreakable' archetype! take two levels there then take a couple more as a lorewarden (or whatever she is) then see how she is doing...

Both archetypes replace bravery class feature. And no, I like Greta as a lorewarden.

Rogues suffer from bad to hit. Nat weapon fighters have less to hit as it is. If Greta was lawful she wouldn't be following you, since the law in White Throne would forbid it.

Both archetypes replace bravery class feature. And no, I like Greta as a lorewarden.

Rogues suffer from bad to hit. Nat weapon fighters have less to hit as it is. If Greta was lawful she wouldn't be following you, since the law in White Throne would forbid it.

That's what I get for trying to jump in a conversation, I didn't pay enough attention to her original archetype...

The word enchantment was used in a layman fashion, like what you'd get in King Arthur and the knights of the round table. Not in a professional(Yes, your GM has quite some wizard in her), sense.

headed to bed, be back on in a few.

Give me a moment. This part is going to take a while.

Heh. It's not like we can refuse, and order you to prepare faster ;-)

Sorry, kinda need to do this part justice.

Tom Marvolo Riddle and Lord Voldermort...

Also, I'm pretty pleased with the way the whole thing turned out, I got to tell you some backstory that most players wouldn't get to see...else this entire mod is not very obvious on backstory. I try to give as much backstory as possible.

Just a heads up. Artosa is a rather big dungeon so to speak, and I would be pretty amazed if you could complete it without a break. I'd deem it as the completion of the Iron Man equivalent in Golarion. That being said, I'm not going to be telling you guys when to take breaks, it'll be up to you lot to pace yourselves.

This sounds like a challenge :-)

We'll just need to pace ourselves, and not splurge all of our limited resources all at once.

This sounds like a challenge :-)

Sounds more like a reasonable warning to me.

Crummock, I was just following Einar's instructions. He said north tunnel which was the way you guys came from, if you follow map directions, so I assumed it to be going where north usually is.

Ah, fair enough then. Mea culpa!

Currently going to put the game on hold.

Currently going to put the game on hold.

Awww I just got shiny new claws.

Going back to bed then.

Saturday morning and early afternoon, we will be out of town celebrating my wife's birthday with the kids. But that should be when some folks are in bed. I will be on again before we leave, and then when we get back.

I'm not a people person. I don't know how to talk nice. I don't believe in ignoring elephants in the room, either.

Crummock and Hirah need to sort out the problem. If it can't be fixed, then I'll call off ROW. Sorry about that.

If you want houserules, I could do so on create soul gem(so as long as you don't trade it off and its used on an evil target-not to have evil descriptor), but not for animate dead. I can even homebrew items that will disintegrate a dead body(but of course there will be a price).

The problem is I'm not sure if its just a symptom of a problem.

At the end of the day it's find a compromise, or no one gets to play.

Hirah - I will candidly tell you that having lengthy rule discussions with you is also trying on me. I believe I am much more patient then most GMs when it comes to explaining things.

I'm happy trying to find any sort of compromise here.

Basically, I understand completely that Create Soul Gem creates a way to prevent resurrection - and I think its really cool that Crummock found a way to counter enemies using this tactic.

That said, Hirah, worshiping a deity of freedom - finds that trapping souls in gems, denying creatures a final judgement and agony at the same time, a morally questionable thing to do, and knows that its a tactic more often used by daemons, which often results in soul gems being used as a form of currency.

Ironically, Hirah doesn't have a problem (much) with Animate Dead, if its served in the purpose of the greater good. She doesn't have a problem making enemies suffer (probably doesn't really feel comfortable with torture though), but probably dislikes post-mortem suffering in general.

I think the easy fix is just reflavoring Create Soul Gem into a spell that does everything Crummock wants with it (denying resurrection, making them suffer etc) - just not something virtually identical to what daemons do to their victims.

All Hirah wants is to preserve everything Crummock wants with the spell, just in a way so that it isn't heavily tied to evil outsiders who abuse the spell as its currently written.

I thought we had this discussion.

Create Soul Gem is an evil spell. Casting evil spells makes you evil.

To my knowledge, you haven't changed those rules Mort. You talked about how you thought it was silly, but you didn't change the rules.

So, is potentially permanently preventing someone from reaching Pharasma's domain and having their soul sorted evil or not? Seems like it should be. Our characters are in a fantasy world where gods are real. Denying someone entrance to their god's domain seems like a pretty big deal to me.

You should also consider that with these actions, Crummock is putting himself above Pharasma. That is an act of hubris, one that all the classical literature has gods making a big time mistake.

Since Hirah is a worshiper of a god of liberation, I think she has a point about how her god would find potentially eternal imprisonment nasty as well.

I've got to be off to Aikido, will be back later.

Done with Aikido.

Having thrown people around (and gotten thrown) allowed me to think a little more about this. I think it would be very helpful to have two rules questions resolved.

Mort,

Could you please tell us:

1. Does casting evil spells lead to you eventually becoming evil? (The trope of becoming the monster you fight.)

2. Are you removing the alignment descriptor off any spells, and if so which ones?

I think once we have those two rules issues resolved, perhaps we can have a constructive discussion about soul gems and group cooperation.

Note that I am not looking for what the rules as written say. I am asking how Mort wants it to be in this campaign.

1. Eventually yes, but at 100 castings or so.

2. I am prepared to houserule it on spells that cause group cooperation issues, but I need to consider the spell first(I.e animate dead is a no-no).

I am not interested in debates about whatever players want to with people's souls. I hate the GM telling me what my character should do - so I don't care to tell anyone what they should do.

I have desperately tried to stay out of this. I have two things to input and then I will be done.

One, not sure why were creating a 'soul gem' with the hag, she's a monstrous humanoid not a main witch in a political system. I don't see her friends trying to help her the way that I think the witches would have.

so having said that:

I was talking with my wife, "I asked could you see elite soldiers in a special forces unit stop in the middle of clearing enemy out of a building to argue religion?" I started to think about it. People in real life who don't agree, hardly on anything, work together all the time.

So in theory we play four specialists who have agreed to help Baba Yaga (of all people) because it is the lesser of two evils...lesser of two evils...

We have one character who believes it is in his best interest to keep the souls of his enemies so they don't attack him.

It is the opinion of one or two other characters that this action is evil.

Do I have that about right?

So now were arguing about it out of game.

Mister Whiskers has asked out of game:

1. Does casting evil spells lead to you eventually becoming evil?
2. Are you removing the alignment descriptor off any spells, and if so which ones?

So asked and answered. Lets get on with it.

Hirah, (and Mister Whiskers to a lesser extent if this applies) call Crummock on it in game and move on. Crud, Mister Whiskers called out Einar for being grumpy with a hedge wizard.

So say something in game and move on. But remember we all work for Baba Yaga. We agreed to a geas, so don't get too high and mighty. We were brought in to do a messy job, not bake cakes and sing 'Kum by ya.'

Crummock wants to be CG and judge bad witches with a vengeance beyond his station. So your character doesn't think he's good anymore. So when were done don't buy a condo next to his.

If this is so unacceptable to your character would your character have ever taken this job? Their willing to work for Baba Yaga, who did they think they would be working with? All of her servants are evil.

Tell him you don't approve of his methods and move on.

Mort's running the game and she don't care. Can we keep playing please?

Alright, so there are evil spells. Animate Dead is one of them. I am lesss concerned with any numbers you put on it than I am that it is an evil act.

At the moment, it seems to me you have not decided if Create Soul Gem is an evil spell.

Let's try to take it to the next steps.

Mort:

If Hirah and Mr. Whiskers complain and council against the use of such magics but do not interfere with Crummock performing them, would we be aiding and abetting? Would she potentially be punished by her god of liberation?

If we restrict ourselves to words, will bad things happen to us because we failed to stop what I consider bad behavior?

Hirah:

Can you be less hostile in your presentation and perhaps avoid some of the rules arguments? Overall, I have found that Mort has an excellent understanding of the rules. Although I don't agree with all of their interpretations it isn't like they are making decisions without basis.

Einar, the problem is that its (the creation of a Soul Gem) something that goes against one of the core tenets of my deity (liberation). I'm risking losing access to class features / punishment with this singular, particular spell. Sure, Baba Yaga is evil, but Hirah is attempting to liberate the world from endless winter - so realistically I can justify it to my deity. Its harder to justify to my deity while I'm suddenly ok with someone in the party trapping souls, when its not required (if it was essential to the mission then at least I could argue that with Arshea).

I'm happy telling him I don't approve each and every time he casts it but I don't think Crummock (fairly) doesn't want Hirah to rag on about it every time he casts it.

If Hirah and Mr. Whiskers complain and council against the use of such magics but do not interfere with Crummock performing them, would we be aiding and abetting? Would she potentially be punished by her god of liberation?

If we restrict ourselves to words, will bad things happen to us because we failed to stop what I consider bad behavior.

I will never punish a character(by stripping powers, or otherwise) for failing to stop something done by another character. And I wouldn't be stripping someone of their powers for no good reason.

Example that will cause issues: Someone promises you a Manual of Bodily health+5 if you give him 100 human slaves. Everyone in the party happily does it without protest. That will cause you to lose your powers.

You have to CHOOSE to fall.

I can understand why Crummock wants to do it to witches in White Throne. They definitely knew what they were doing was wrong etc and willingly chose to do it. So yes, they had it coming.

Now when you talk about non humanoids - you're talking about a different culture altogether. A lot of monsters view humans as food. No malice meant, just food.

Maybe if you took a chance to explain it to them, they might realize ooops, we really shouldn't be eating humans...but probably that will never happen.

It's in their culture to do it. And let's not even go into what if a magical beast enjoys human flesh, and young is tender. There is a market for veal, afterall.

Einar, the problem is that its...

Does it say anywhere in any rules that a pathfinder god will punish a player for the actions of someone else? If so why would you ever join a team working for Baba Yaga?

You took a geas to help Baba Yaga... all her servants are evil... You took your religious well being into your own hands when you agreed to help her.

Einar there are two different concepts you are dealing with in your last sentance

One is working with evil, which technically, I dont have an issue with. Its stated good creatures can work alongside evil for the greater good. Otherwise, you would never, ever be able to play a Paladin or Cleric in this AP (and I understand that you can). So yes, I can work with Baba Yaga (grudgingly), especially, as I can claim or judge a standing that I'm seeking the liberation of endless winter. Therefore, I'm doing a greater good. I don't run into any issues with my deity by helping Baba Yaga (I checked).

The second point (and my issue), is that I need to uphold the tenets of my deity. Just like a cleric, just like a paladin (though mine are much less extreme). My chosen deity, has a philosophy of liberation, freedom. The conflict, is someone in this party trapping souls, which heavily contradicts what my deity supports. Hence the question of "will this affect the standing I have with my deity". it means that if you actively enslave someone in front of me, I will probably say something about it (although up until now I have tried to avoid as much conflict RE this). I'd probably be fine though with what Crummock did earlier, which was buy a slave and release it - Arshea would be super proud about that.

Now RE

Does it say anywhere in any rules that a pathfinder god will punish a player for the actions of someone else?

In my experience (but Mort might know a little more about it than me), rules are hazy on the subject. It is stated that occasionally, if good divine adventurers working with evil, they might occasionally need an atonement spell (which seems to indicate yes, it does have some mechanical issue) - but that's all I can find on the topic. Someone more rules savvy might know a bit more.

The GM cannot be arsed to find rules stating pathfinder god punishing players for anyone else's actions.

As I said it is all about free will and making choices.

I will never punish a character(by stripping powers, or otherwise) for failing to stop something done by another character. And I wouldn't be stripping someone of their powers for no good reason.

Example that will cause issues: Someone promises you a Manual of Bodily health+5 if you give him 100 human slaves. Everyone in the party happily does it without protest. That will cause you to lose your powers.

You have to CHOOSE to fall.

I can work with that.

Hirah, can you?

Still waiting for imput from Crummock.

Sure, I can work with that.

Still waiting for imput from Crummock.

So, are we just waiting for Crummock to chime in before we can resume?

Yes. I want to make sure things can be settled once and for all, since I didn't do it properly the last time and they flared up again.

Since we are trying to settle things, I would like to point out a couple of things that I'm seeing differently than Einar.

I see our group as more a hodgepodge of heroes that happened to be at the proper location at the time. I don't consider us elite, nor soldiers. We have not trained extensively together, and at times it shows.

We do not 'work for Baba Yaga'. The geas was to free her so she would prevent Elvana from bringing on an eternal winter.

I don't see either of the above causing problems or preventing us from working together. I just want to point out a difference in viewpoint.

If it ends here I'll just write it as the black mantle gives a huge sigh at squabbling PCs, then paste the bad ending as copied over from the last book of the AP where Queen Elvana wins. I mean I read it, thought it was totally cool for the writers to include it in. How many people actually get to see the bad ending?

GMs excluded.

As I have indicated to Mort and Robert via PM, enabling the AP to continue is more important than my own personal desires.

Consequently, I am happy to continue, with the caveat that I will only do what I think Hirah and Mr Whiskers want, and will give them first right of refusal on any of the actions that I *do* take; hopefully, that way, we can avoid further conflict.

All right people, lets get moving then.

I don’t really have anything with in character arguments, or pointing out things to the GM – but not to the point where they start resulting in derailing in-game matters, or pissing the players/GM in question off. IC – just yatter, and then be done with it – you don’t have to harp on it for several pages, or kick up a big fuss.

I'm suffering from lag spikes and inability to find thread syndrome. Is it just me?

It looks like the website may have reset again - it appears all my 'dots' disappeared (something I only discovered accidentally, when I noted that a thread I was following had 'updated' without me noticing).

It might be worth PM'ing people to let them know...

PMs sent to Hirah and Mr Whiskers.

Though I would not be surprised if Spikey the lag monster ate their posts...took ages to tweak my flame oracle in another game.

Interestingly, dots still seem to be absent - your last post here (and Mr Whisker's in the Gameplay thread) still did not show up for me on my 'campaign' page...