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Pros:
- Huge area
- Doesn't hit allies
- Both conditions are good ones to inflict
Cons:
- 3 actions
- Needs a failure to do much different than a Fear spell 2 ranks lower
In a large scale combat this is going to be good because a lot of things are going to fail it and thus both Frightened and Stunned. In a smaller scale combat it's not very useful because Success odds go up, and it's not worth casting against a single enemy.
I don't think I'd take it on a Spontaneous caster in a typical campaign, but in one where you know there's a higher proportion of battles with larger numbers of enemies it becomes more worthy of consideration. I've definitely had encounters where this would have been quite useful because they were large map/lots of enemy situations where this could hit all of them.
But once you get AoE Slow, how often would you spend your actions on this vs casting that? I think that's the real issue: this is a situational spell for a situation that doesn't come up a ton, competing for actions with more generally effective spells.
Now as something an NPC would cast on the party it could be fun to toss out, especially if they're fighting a military themed foe.
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It's basically a mix of Heightened Fear with Synaptic Pulse.
Pros:
Cons:
This spell action cost and duration discourage me to use it. It looks good if you have to fear troops or wants to disable multiple enemies reactions, but outside this specific use I probably won't use it.
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It's basically a mix of Heightened Fear with Synaptic Pulse.
Pros:
Have a good range
Have a good AoE
Doesn't have an incapacitation trait
Only affects enemies (no FF).
Merges frightened and stunned effects Cons:
It's 3-actions
It has a 1 round duration (so yes this means that the frightened ends in the beginning of the caster turn, not matter how much it's its value).
No fleeing on critical failure. This spell action cost and duration discourage me to use it. It looks good if you have to fear troops or wants to disable multiple enemies reactions, but outside this specific use I probably won't use it.
The no incap is good for a stun. Could be used as a control spell, so your allies can move in without causing reaction attacks or abilities. Looks like a good spell for group coordination.
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The no incap is good for a stun. Could be used as a control spell, so your allies can move in without causing reaction attacks or abilities. Looks like a good spell for group coordination.It's basically a mix of Heightened Fear with Synaptic Pulse.
Pros:
Have a good range
Have a good AoE
Doesn't have an incapacitation trait
Only affects enemies (no FF).
Merges frightened and stunned effects Cons:
It's 3-actions
It has a 1 round duration (so yes this means that the frightened ends in the beginning of the caster turn, not matter how much it's its value).
No fleeing on critical failure. This spell action cost and duration discourage me to use it. It looks good if you have to fear troops or wants to disable multiple enemies reactions, but outside this specific use I probably won't use it.
"Could be used as a control spell, so your allies can move in without causing reaction attacks or abilities."
How does the spell prevent reaction attacks?
It took some discussion, but the community I think has mostly agreed that when stun says no actions, that means no reactions as well. So if you stun the group, they can't take reactions, free actions, or any type of action until the stun condition is removed on their turn. Since it can't be removed between turns unless removed by a spell or special ability that allows it, then any stunned targets won't be able to react against your movement when you go in.
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How does the spell prevent reaction attacks?
Stunned says "you can't act". While some people felt that was flavour text that didn't do anything (which is its own argument), Player Core doesn't agree:
If you can't act, you can't use any actions, including reactions and free actions.
"It has a 1 round duration (so yes this means that the frightened ends in the beginning of the caster turn, not matter how much it's its value)."
Oh jeez I didn't know that, I thought Frightened always ticks down, thanks for this.
Is that true? Effects that caused Stunned always seem to have a duration on them for some reason. I don't think the intention is that Frightened also ends immediately.
It's another common discussion that some people disagree but when a condition is inside a stat block with duration, the conditions, that are effects, are limited to the duration like any other thing in the effect description.
I don't think frightened ending is intentional, but it would definitely be a DM choice as the rules aren't clear and the spell was written in a way that doesn't make it clear if the frightened condition is separate from the duration. They should have left off the duration as the conditions the spell causes have rules for how they are reduced.
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Resentment witch enters the chat...
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"When you Cast or Sustain a hex, your familiar can curse a creature within 15 feet of it, prolonging the duration of any negative conditions affecting it by 1 round."
Mine is a raven. And he floats around willy-nilly cursing everyone (even friends if they piss him off).
I think you can still use reactions while stunned. For example failure effect for Spirit Song states:
Failure: The creature takes full damage, can't use reactions until the beginning of its turn, and is stunned 1.
If Stunned automatically prevented no reactions they wouldn't have explicitly stated it in this failure effect.
Well, it's been pretty clearly shown that stunned means no reactions until the stun clears. If you want to run it that way, it's up to you.
That little rules tidbit is just another example of Paizo writing things that don't need to be written because their rules and conditions are currently all over the place like frightened not having a duration and ticking down at the end of rounds.
I think it is pretty clear stunned means no actions including reactions until Stun clears. Otherwise stun is just a weaker version of slow. Most of us tend to think that isn't the case.
But since Paizo designers have yet to clarify stunned and make some of their rules more clear, GMs can run it as they want until Paizo decides to clear it up...which might be never or next edition.
Stunned was much, much better in PF1 as with most things, especially if you make stunned just a weaker version of slow.
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I think you can still use reactions while stunned. For example failure effect for Spirit Song states:
Failure: The creature takes full damage, can't use reactions until the beginning of its turn, and is stunned 1.
If Stunned automatically prevented no reactions they wouldn't have explicitly stated it in this failure effect.
Check page 436 of the Player Core.
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I think you can still use reactions while stunned. For example failure effect for Spirit Song states:
Failure: The creature takes full damage, can't use reactions until the beginning of its turn, and is stunned 1.
If Stunned automatically prevented no reactions they wouldn't have explicitly stated it in this failure effect.
They did, though. Stunned says "You can't act."
"You can't act" is actually defined in the rules:
If you can't act, you can't use any actions, including reactions and free actions.
So there's no ambiguity here at all, it's stated flat out that while stunned you can't take any actions whatsoever, including reactions.
The problem is that it's just stated in a place that is easily overlooked, and that whoever wrote Spirit Song put redundant text in it that doesn't need to be there. That creates confusion that wouldn't exist without the redundant text.
This is far from the only example of that.
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I think it's pretty good.
Short duration, but some potentially really nice effects. The combination of good range + huge area + no target cap + no incap + ally safe is really nice.
Short duration sucks, and the success effect is a little rough. Unless you're leveraging the range and area heightened fear does the same thing two spell levels earlier.
This spell definitely seems like a great candidate for a combat utility spell on a high level caster who's past relying on 5th rank spell slots, but frighten 1 for 1 round is going to be a common enough outcome I probably wouldn't rely on it much at levels where 5th rank slots are my main drivers.
"When you Cast or Sustain a hex, your familiar can curse a creature within 15 feet of it, prolonging the duration of any negative conditions affecting it by 1 round."Difficult to extend a spell that needed 3 actions, unless somebody else casted it.
Just get an ally to strike your familiar so you can use Phase Familiar, EZ.
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This reminds me Daze spell.
Since the beginning, no one really knows why it has a duration but this prevents it to work with Unleash Psyche and other things that doesn't work if the spell has duration.
This reminds me Daze spell.
Since the beginning, no one really knows why it has a duration but this prevents it to work with Unleash Psyche and other things that doesn't work if the spell has duration.
Yeah a lot of spells that inflict Stunned seem to have a duration even when it makes no sense for them to have a duration. Daze is a great example because what is that duration doing? Damage is permanent, Stunned will drop off before the duration ends, and there's no lingering area effect that needs to end.
Shock and Awe is no exception. Ignore the duration and everything works pretty well.
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I don't think anyone has given this interpretation yet.
The duration provided might have nothing to do with conditions the spell applies as we all know those conditions have built in ways to handle duration, the duration tells us how long the spell affects the area you target.
We know that creatures in the area of the spell must roll a will save.
If the effect lasts for 1 round then I am thinking I need to apply the save to creatures in the burst when the spell is cast since they would be in the area at that time and when any creature enters the area since they would become in the area while the duration remains.
I was reading the rules again and this have an interesting point.
Spells like Wall of Fire and Stinking Cloud doesn't explicitly say that the effect stays in the area during its duration. This is implied due to their nature.
Also the Durations rules states that:
The duration of a spell is how long the spell effect lasts. Spells that last for more than an instant have a Duration entry. A spell might last until the start or end of a turn, for some number of rounds, for minutes, or even longer. If a spell's duration is given in rounds, the number of rounds remaining decreases by 1 at the start of each of the spellcaster's turns, ending when the duration reaches 0.
Some spells have effects that remain even after the spell's magic is gone. Any ongoing effect that isn't part of the spell's duration entry isn't magical. For instance, a spell that creates a brief, loud sound might deafen someone for a time, even permanently. This deafness couldn't be counteracted because it is not itself magical (though it might be cured by other magic, such as sound body).
Most effects are discrete, creating an instantaneous effect when you let the GM know what actions you are going to use. Firing a bow, moving to a new space, or taking something out of your pack all resolve instantly. Other effects instead last for a certain duration. Once the duration has elapsed, the effect ends. The rules generally use the following conventions for durations, though spells have some special durations.
For an effect that lasts a number of rounds, the remaining duration decreases by 1 at the start of each turn of the creature that created the effect. Detrimental effects often last “until the end of the target's next turn” or “through” a number of their turns (such as “through the target's next 3 turns”), which means that the effect's duration decreases at the end of the creature's turn, rather than the start.
Instead of lasting a fixed number of rounds, a duration might end only when certain conditions are met (or cease to be true). If so, the effects last until those conditions are met.
Some effects can be ended early with the Dismiss action. An effect with the sustained duration lasts until the end of your next turn, but it can be extended as described in the Sustain action.
While adventuring, characters (and sometimes their belongings) are affected by abilities and effects that apply conditions. For example, a spell or magic item might turn you invisible or cause you to be gripped by fear. Conditions change your state of being in some way, and they represent everything from the attitude other creatures have toward you and how they interact with you to what happens when a creature drains your blood or life essence.
Conditions are persistent. Whenever you're affected by a condition, its effects last until the condition's stated duration ends, the condition is removed, or terms dictated in the condition itself cause it to end.
Considering these rules, some of which are contradictory, but with the first being specific to spells (and therefore more specific than the general rule regarding the duration of effects and conditions), what is likely to happen is that during the duration, the effect will continue to affect the area, and under the conditions, exactly as stated in the spell's effect, and after the spell's effect ends, such as Deafened example, they will be only removed if something (like sound body spell) removes the condition. What means that conditions could be way more harsy than many people expects if we use the sum of all durations (spell + condition duration).
IMO it's something that need a good clarification.
Another thing to consider is that treating the spell as establishing a 1 round zone that forces a save or suffer conditions to those in the area or entering the area while its still up allows it to occupy its own distinct space in the tradition list.
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It has a 1 round duration (so yes this means that the frightened ends in the beginning of the caster turn, not matter how much it's its value).
I disagree with this interpretation.
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The problem is that every interpretation have its own problem or something that someone will dislike.
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The problem is that every interpretation have its own problem or something that someone will dislike.
True. They should have been explicit.
The way I play it is a deduction from the rules. For the conditions which have their own ending rules like frightened or sickened then I use what is stated in the condition - so you can end up with a condition even after moving out of an area or after the spell that generated that condition expires. Other conditions that have no duration or reasonable ending condition so I use the duration of the effect - because these conditions don't make any sense without it.
For me it is a question of identifying the specific and general rules. I take notice of what is in the condition itself unless it is otherwise overidden.
Currently I rule based in foundry's mechanics.
Once that the spell effects automations just link the conditions to the spell effect and ends the condition when the spell ends it's how I rule in the end of the day.
In foundry casting a spell will also post the chatbox with the spell's effects in it. Dragging the conditions from that box onto a creature will apply the conditions normally with its value. So there is no issue running conditions with their own duration separate from the spells duration.
"When you Cast or Sustain a hex, your familiar can curse a creature within 15 feet of it, prolonging the duration of any negative conditions affecting it by 1 round."Difficult to extend a spell that needed 3 actions, unless somebody else casted it.
Cackle. I have never actually used it to sustain a spell. I have used to keep unending misery....unending.
"When you Cast or Sustain a hex, your familiar can curse a creature within 15 feet of it, prolonging the duration of any negative conditions affecting it by 1 round."Difficult to extend a spell that needed 3 actions, unless somebody else casted it.
At the start of your next turn you cast Patron's Puppet - a free action hex, before any ongoing durations tick down.