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I still remember we hit level 12 and our wizard summoned a dragon to fight a dragon to keep up with its movement. Got wrecked by its fear aura, then couldn't land a hit flying and attacking once. Just a total waste of a spell slot. That wizard never used that spell again in any campaign on any caster character.This is a matter of expectations. A spell should be just part of the solution versus a boss monster. If a summoned dragon was a match for an on level dragon then the game would be broken like every previous edition.
Of course it doesn't help that spells like Synesthesia and Wall of Stone exist. Which do have the power to swing an encounter all by themselves.
I would be fine if summon dragon were part of the solution at high level, but it's so bad that it did nothing and has done nothing every time we use it. Once you start reaching the 3 to 4 or more levels difference in what you're fighting, the summons become less and less able to do anything when cast unless you're using them for extra spells or some special ability.
Any combat function doesn't work with the high level spread. The level spread makes mooks into bosses and bosses into god-like enemies that can't be touched by the summoned monster even with the highest level slot used. I feel a max level summon spell should be a whole lot better than they are.
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I still remember we hit level 12 and our wizard summoned a dragon to fight a dragon to keep up with its movement. Got wrecked by its fear aura, then couldn't land a hit flying and attacking once. Just a total waste of a spell slot. That wizard never used that spell again in any campaign on any caster character.This is a matter of expectations. A spell should be just part of the solution versus a boss monster. If a summoned dragon was a match for an on level dragon then the game would be broken like every previous edition.
Of course it doesn't help that spells like Synesthesia and Wall of Stone exist. Which do have the power to swing an encounter all by themselves.
I would be fine if summon dragon were part of the solution at high level, but it's so bad that it did nothing and has done nothing every time we use it. Once you start reaching the 3 to 4 or more levels difference in what you're fighting, the summons become less and less able to do anything when cast unless you're using them for extra spells or some special ability.
Any combat function doesn't work with the high level spread. The level spread makes mooks into bosses and bosses into god-like enemies that can't be touched by the summoned monster even with the highest level slot used. I feel a max level summon spell should be a whole lot better than they are.
This scenario has me curious.
If your wizard was level 12, he's using Rank 6 spells, and Summon Dragon gives four choices for what it can tag there:
River Drake is clearly the weakest, and I doubt it was the choice.
Young Omen Dragon is Occult and cannot be chosen by an Arcane caster, so it's also out.
That leaves 2: Young Black and Young Brass.
Both would have good options to engage outside of the Fear aura of the enemy dragon.
Black has Stinking Cloud, which has a 120' cast range, so it can be used outside of the 90' fear aura, and on a successful save, the enemy dragon would be Sickened 1. It also has Slow and True Strike, so it could have closer in options once the Fear wore off after a round or two, and could be used to try and draw Reactive Strike or set up aerial flanking.
But Brass is even better! It has Earthbind, which has the same 120 range, and on a *successful* save, makes the flying creature descend 120 feet, though most of its spells are defensive. It has the same ability to potentially draw RS as Black, but it also has Mirror Image. On top of that, it could cast Resist Energy (against the enemy dragon's breath weapon energy type) on one of your party.
If your enemy dragon was the Adult tier (which is around level 11), both Black and Brass would be hitting with around a 12, or 10 with flanking, which is not bad for a summons, and would be able to soak 4-6 hits, or 2-3 crits, from the enemy dragon.
If you were fighting a Level 16ish Ancient, yeah, they'd be bad, but what would you expect? If you could summon a monster at level 12 that could go toe-to-toe with a level 16 boss, well, that would be seriously overpowered.
It doesn't seem to me to be a summons issue, but either an expectations issue, or maybe poor tactics. I would lean towards the first, given how you have talked about your group in the past.
Since a summon can stick around for a full minute, its round-to-round abilities have to be diluted compared to an unsustained spell. You might be able to have higher-powered summons with less issue if you had to constantly feed them spell slots.
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I still remember we hit level 12 and our wizard summoned a dragon to fight a dragon to keep up with its movement. Got wrecked by its fear aura, then couldn't land a hit flying and attacking once. Just a total waste of a spell slot. That wizard never used that spell again in any campaign on any caster character.This is a matter of expectations. A spell should be just part of the solution versus a boss monster. If a summoned dragon was a match for an on level dragon then the game would be broken like every previous edition.
Of course it doesn't help that spells like Synesthesia and Wall of Stone exist. Which do have the power to swing an encounter all by themselves.
I would be fine if summon dragon were part of the solution at high level, but it's so bad that it did nothing and has done nothing every time we use it. Once you start reaching the 3 to 4 or more levels difference in what you're fighting, the summons become less and less able to do anything when cast unless you're using them for extra spells or some special ability.
Any combat function doesn't work with the high level spread. The level spread makes mooks into bosses and bosses into god-like enemies that can't be touched by the summoned monster even with the highest level slot used. I feel a max level summon spell should be a whole lot better than they are.
This scenario has me curious.
If your wizard was level 12, he's using Rank 6 spells, and Summon Dragon gives four choices for what it can tag there:
River Drake is clearly the weakest, and I doubt it was the choice.
Young Omen Dragon is Occult and cannot be chosen by an Arcane caster, so it's also out.
That leaves 2: Young Black and Young Brass.Both would have good options to engage outside of the Fear aura of the enemy dragon.
Black has Stinking Cloud, which has a 120' cast range, so it can be used outside of the 90' fear aura, and on a successful save, the enemy dragon...
We are fighting a CR 15 or 16 dragon. Single high level boss dragon against a group.
This is a comparison of combat effectiveness measured in damage versus using a competing spell of the same or close to the same level.
A summon if used in the highest level slot must compete with damage and effectiveness of another damage option to take the slot away from a better spell. Summons as you gain levels don't provide a competitive option.
They provide more of a niche option if you need some special ability. The muse azata is an example of an ability is almost always an evergreen option across levels. Summons for combat meaning damage fall off a cliff as you gain levels.
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Since a summon can stick around for a full minute, its round-to-round abilities have to be diluted compared to an unsustained spell. You might be able to have higher-powered summons with less issue if you had to constantly feed them spell slots.
Spells all compete against each other for a slot based on what they do. So a combat summon should be able to equal the damage of a similar level spell in a combat. Since direct damage in PF2 does pretty nutty damage, very hard for a spell to compete.
Even if the spell lasts a minute, the fight likely won't last a minute. So you have to build these spells to do enough damage or effect to equal the spells they compete against with the span of a combat.
I don't envy the Paizo designers having to thread that needle. I will say for the moment summons spells for combat are hitting on the too weak to compete against another spell slot as the levels up. Need to be up tunned some until we get a sweet spot for effectiveness.
Not only do they need to be tuned higher for regular casters to compete with other slots, they really need to be tuned up to make the summoner summon creature option and feats a lot more viable. With summons as weak as they are for combat, the summoner using summons is an absolutely terrible option becoming more terrible the higher level you get. No class should become weaker as you gain levels, but summons spells become far, far weaker as the levels rise due to the way the level based math works.
Thank you for your answer, Deriven. It was an expectation issue, as I was thinking.
Since a summon can stick around for a full minute, its round-to-round abilities have to be diluted compared to an unsustained spell. You might be able to have higher-powered summons with less issue if you had to constantly feed them spell slots.Spells all compete against each other for a slot based on what they do. So a combat summon should be able to equal the damage of a similar level spell in a combat. Since direct damage in PF2 does pretty nutty damage, very hard for a spell to compete.
Even if the spell lasts a minute, the fight likely won't last a minute. So you have to build these spells to do enough damage or effect to equal the spells they compete against with the span of a combat.
I don't envy the Paizo designers having to thread that needle. I will say for the moment summons spells for combat are hitting on the too weak to compete against another spell slot as the levels up. Need to be up tunned some until we get a sweet spot for effectiveness.
Not only do they need to be tuned higher for regular casters to compete with other slots, they really need to be tuned up to make the summoner summon creature option and feats a lot more viable. With summons as weak as they are for combat, the summoner using summons is an absolutely terrible option becoming more terrible the higher level you get. No class should become weaker as you gain levels, but summons spells become far, far weaker as the levels rise due to the way the level based math works.
I think with summons they really are not there for pure damage. They have some damage some utility but also are more bodies on the field. Any attack or movement against them is basically a debuff effect unless it is an AOE any damage the summon soaks up is indirectly a heal on your party. One issue at some tables though could be too much "game" knowledge by the NPC. GMs understanding how under leveled summons are can wind up with them just ignoring the summon instead of the more natural reaction to suddenly seeing a dragon appear in front of you of Holy crap its a dragon and react accordingly.
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Off the top of my head, if the cap were raised by even just one level, then you could summon Lesser Deaths with summon undead and completely wreck certain encounters with their Aura of Misfortune. Even for a 10th-rank spell, an automatic -5 on average to all d20 rolls I think is quite strong.
I think with summons they really are not there for pure damage. They have some damage some utility but also are more bodies on the field. Any attack or movement against them is basically a debuff effect unless it is an AOE any damage the summon soaks up is indirectly a heal on your party. One issue at some tables though could be too much "game" knowledge by the NPC. GMs understanding how under leveled summons are can wind up with them just ignoring the summon instead of the more...Since a summon can stick around for a full minute, its round-to-round abilities have to be diluted compared to an unsustained spell. You might be able to have higher-powered summons with less issue if you had to constantly feed them spell slots.Spells all compete against each other for a slot based on what they do. So a combat summon should be able to equal the damage of a similar level spell in a combat. Since direct damage in PF2 does pretty nutty damage, very hard for a spell to compete.
Even if the spell lasts a minute, the fight likely won't last a minute. So you have to build these spells to do enough damage or effect to equal the spells they compete against with the span of a combat.
I don't envy the Paizo designers having to thread that needle. I will say for the moment summons spells for combat are hitting on the too weak to compete against another spell slot as the levels up. Need to be up tunned some until we get a sweet spot for effectiveness.
Not only do they need to be tuned higher for regular casters to compete with other slots, they really need to be tuned up to make the summoner summon creature option and feats a lot more viable. With summons as weak as they are for combat, the summoner using summons is an absolutely terrible option becoming more terrible the higher level you get. No class should become weaker as you gain levels, but summons spells become far, far weaker as the levels rise due to the way the level based math works.
No one wants to spend the highest level spell slot to have a dragon ripped apart in a round by higher level enemies. The level difference leads to more crits, more missed saves, and such leading to quick obliteration.
Summons are fine up to about level 10. Then as the level difference gets wider and wider with monsters having more passive abilities and doing some crazy damage, they become less and less effective for the functions you are listing.
The attack rolls and damage are just one element. Even the ability to rip it apart in a round by a boss monster becomes possible. That would mean you spent the highest level slot you have to cast a spell that made a monster appear to absorb maybe one round of attacks or if the monster like an ancient dragon sees a PC summon a small dragon they do ignore it because they are a dragon that knows how powerful other dragons are. Thus knows it's weak and has no interest in wasting actions on it.
Spells all compete against each other for a slot based on what they do. So a combat summon should be able to equal the damage of a similar level spell in a combat. Since direct damage in PF2 does pretty nutty damage, very hard for a spell to compete.
To zoom in on that bit:
The summon spell needs to "in the average case" have a total impact that matches other spells. You have to add together the summon's damage, the damage reduction (by getting hit), the action-stealing (by being swung at), and even the battlefield manipulation (by being a token occupying space).
This is what I mean when I say that summon spells are dangerously powerful.
It's pretty easy to see that a summon spell that eats a foe's Stride + Strike, does 1/4 the dmg of an on-R spell, and stops a foe from flanking, can quickly add up in terms of power.
And considering the HP growth math, I do think at higher level, summons noticeably shift away from dealing damage and into more of a tank/obstruction utility role.
If a player's summon is killed via targeted damage at any level, that basically means that the spell was wildly powerful, and this is all the more true at high level.
_______
A quick note on over time & sustain spells.
Some dev-set duration would be seen as the break-even point of power returns for the investment of casting. Any shorter, and the spell is intended to provide inferior returns, and any longer results in a "stronger than other spells, on purpose" effect.
Sometimes you can calculate this break even duration when it comes to more simple "just do damage" spells, but even when summon spells make that comparison kinda impossible, it still does affect the considerations for summon spells.
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Spells all compete against each other for a slot based on what they do. So a combat summon should be able to equal the damage of a similar level spell in a combat. Since direct damage in PF2 does pretty nutty damage, very hard for a spell to compete.To zoom in on that bit:
The summon spell needs to "in the average case" have a total impact that matches other spells. You have to add together the summon's damage, the damage reduction (by getting hit), the action-stealing (by being swung at), and even the battlefield manipulation (by being a token occupying space).
This is what I mean when I say that summon spells are dangerously powerful.
It's pretty easy to see that a summon spell that eats a foe's Stride + Strike, does 1/4 the dmg of an on-R spell, and stops a foe from flanking, can quickly add up in terms of power.And considering the HP growth math, I do think at higher level, summons noticeably shift away from dealing damage and into more of a tank/obstruction utility role.
If a player's summon is killed via targeted damage at any level, that basically means that the spell was wildly powerful, and this is all the more true at high level.
_______A quick note on over time & sustain spells.
Some dev-set duration would be seen as the break-even point of power returns for the investment of casting. Any shorter, and the spell is intended to provide inferior returns, and any longer results in a "stronger than other spells, on purpose" effect.Sometimes you can calculate this break even duration when it comes to more simple "just do damage" spells, but even when summon spells make that comparison kinda impossible, it still does affect the considerations for summon spells.
As someone that spends a lot of time playing at higher levels, I can say that combat summons become progressively worse. I've used summons in the 1 to 7 to 10 range and they do what you say they do. They can be a nice little roadblock that maybe does a bit of damage. They aren't too bad. I've used them for a variety of purposes at lower levels.
But once you push to that 11 and up range and especially after 13 to 15, the attack rolls, passive ability saves, ability to use reach, AOE damage, and the like makes summons pretty useless. They critically miss or miss their saves against passives like auras and gazes nearly upon summoning which can be quite bad. They can barely land a blow. They get crit on nearly every hit from the enemy. The save effects on their passives or spells is so low that an enemy shrugs it off. Those big fat hit point pools that make you think they can take a hit getting crushed by crits and high damage enemy abilities. All in all I stop using summons unless like a muse azata or some spell user past level 13. No way I'm spending a level 7 or higher slot that I can will with some amazing hammer spell for a summon that is going to critically fail an aura, gaze, or special ability effect and be rendered useless almost as soon as I use the spell.
The level gap is too wide at high level. The tiered system they used where you're summoning some level-3, 4, or 5 creature at level 13 and up with a level 7 or higher spell is too painfully low to be worth using for combat.
A primal sorc in our Stolen Fate campaign did make some pretty good use of the giant family of summoned creatures, but yeah, I don't think that increasing level gap is appropriate tbh.
A primal sorc in our Stolen Fate campaign did make some pretty good use of the giant family of summoned creatures, but yeah, I don't think that increasing level gap is appropriate tbh.
The giant is one of the better ones at lower level meaning 10 to 11 or lower. They take up a lot of space. Wide swing is nice against mooks. Their reach is nice too. They got a lot of hit points. Main downside of giants is you run into reflex save AOE stuff. They get wrecked.
L13 Storm giant has 3x casts of R6 Chain Lightning, and the infamous +37 to its rock throw.
One R9 spell, coming online at L17, to cast 3 R6 Chain Lightnings is already good sustain damage. And that is without all the dmg mitigation, action stealing, etc.
While I do think the summon spells in general could use some adjustment, I also think people here are underselling as-is summons rather noticeably.
L13 Storm giant has 3x casts of R6 Chain Lightning, and the infamous +37 to its rock throw.
One R9 spell, coming online at L17, to cast 3 R6 Chain Lightnings is already good sustain damage. And that is without all the dmg mitigation, action stealing, etc.
While I do think the summon spells in general could use some adjustment, I also think people here are underselling as-is summons rather noticeably.
That +37 is obviously a typo and not meant to be +37. DC33 at that level is a nothing save. You have to be level 17 to cast a level 9 spell. Even Level-2 mooks are CR15. So you're going to use one of your few level 9 spells to summon storm giant CR 13 that may appear and miss a save against even a mook passive?
I guess if your DM allows a typo for some extreme creature that you search for, I guess you can exploit that.
The reality is you would be better off using the level 9 slot for a chain lightning yourself for your level based DC. It would do more damage than wasting the slot on a summon creature.
As soon as you cast the summon, the giant is ready to throw an R6 C.Lightning.
3x 8d12 @DC 33 is surprisingly relevant compared against 1x 11d12 @DC 38. The giant's DC being 5 lower is a big downgrade, but that's just barely still usable.
If the caster has a way to sustain for 0A, then the other two R6's cost 0A. Otherwise, they cost 1A each.
The summon having lower defenses itself helps it to bait attacks. If a creature sees it getting crit on a Strike, that'll entice another swing. As I mentioned, I'd still say the summon's primary job is to be a distraction. Both having a flashy offensive spell, and looking like an easy target, help with that.
And this thing has more HP than an HP6 caster. Those attributes really help it appear to be a good idea to burn down the crazy lightning giant ASAP, while making it a big win for the party if their summon takes the focus.
There's also other, lets call them odd quirks of summon spells. Such as the temp allies being valid targets for Battle Medicine, making that combat heal essentially cost no resource beyond the 1A. All cooldown-throttled abilities like that work, which is another big part of why buffing summon spells is so risky from a balance PoV.
They are a vessel for action-granting abilies, too. Feed it an L17 Energy Mutagen / Energy Breath Potion and now it's got another offensive option, etc.
Minions are just a nightmare from a balance PoV, and a spell that creates a temp minion on the spot is that much worse. I'm not going to claim that summons are secretly OP at high level or anything, but just plopping them down on the map behind the foe's backline is kinda the worst way to use them most of the time. In terms of balance budget, they pay for the ability to be temp allies, so leaving that power untapped is a reason why they may feel like they under-perform.
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High level summons only being good because of free spell slots is a bit of an issue IMO. Otherwise the numbers are so bad that your summon can easily be ignored by the enemy because the potential threat is so low.
Wizard and Reanimator have options for broad +1 for summons, giving similar to the master summon feat line for Summoners and perhaps an item that all casters could use (say level 12 item or so) could help out higher level summons a good deal. Make it something you need to invest in. Just the option to make them elite, or anything that makes them have higher numbers without increasing the powers of what you can summon while also not fighting against party status buffs would be a huge help.
As soon as you cast the summon, the giant is ready to throw an R6 C.Lightning.
3x 8d12 @DC 33 is surprisingly relevant compared against 1x 11d12 @DC 38. The giant's DC being 5 lower is a big downgrade, but that's just barely still usable.
If the caster has a way to sustain for 0A, then the other two R6's cost 0A. Otherwise, they cost 1A each.The summon having lower defenses itself helps it to bait attacks. If a creature sees it getting crit on a Strike, that'll entice another swing. As I mentioned, I'd still say the summon's primary job is to be a distraction. Both having a flashy offensive spell, and looking like an easy target, help with that.
And this thing has more HP than an HP6 caster. Those attributes really help it appear to be a good idea to burn down the crazy lightning giant ASAP, while making it a big win for the party if their summon takes the focus.
There's also other, lets call them odd quirks of summon spells. Such as the temp allies being valid targets for Battle Medicine, making that combat heal essentially cost no resource beyond the 1A. All cooldown-throttled abilities like that work, which is another big part of why buffing summon spells is so risky from a balance PoV.
They are a vessel for action-granting abilies, too. Feed it an L17 Energy Mutagen / Energy Breath Potion and now it's got another offensive option, etc.
Minions are just a nightmare from a balance PoV, and a spell that creates a temp minion on the spot is that much worse. I'm not going to claim that summons are secretly OP at high level or anything, but just plopping them down on the map behind the foe's backline is kinda the worst way to use them most of the time. In terms of balance budget, they pay for the ability to be temp allies, so leaving that power untapped is a reason why they may feel like they under-perform.
You're talking about this absent what you will be fighting when you can cast level 9 spells when a CR 15 demon or lich is a mook. High CR creatures have a lot of abilities and lots of defenses. They have big hit point pools too, more than the giant.
The giant is a CR13 creature with CR13 stats fighting against even mooks with CR15 hit points and stats. It just gets worse when equal CR or higher CR.
9th level spells at level 17 are your highest level slots. You still start with 2 or 3 depending on the type of caster. You want to use one of 2 or 3 highest level slots to cast a summon? Out of your entire list, you think this will be the optimal spell to cast compared to other level 9 spells to fight an enemy or group of enemies that will challenge a level 17 group?
That's what summons have to compete with. It's not, "I can see how this might be useful." It's "This spell has to have to a high impact as it is my highest level spell slot that I will use in the strongest fight I will face for the day. Is this the best spell I can slot in my level 9 slot to make the highest impact?"
I do not think a level 9 summon meets that criteria as someone that has run a lot of level 17 or higher characters against a lot of high level monster or groups of them.
Due to how incredibly contextual they can be, summon spells are kinda anti-whiteroom in how they play out, but I'll stand by that seeing it in action has showed that it can be competitive.
It wasn't used in party vs solo fights obviously, though I'm not sure I can actually remember a single fight in Stolen Fate that was as such. The fewest I can remember is named foe + 2 others.
Wait, I do remember some odd pink slime fight, that might have been a single foe.
Regardless, throwing down a large and flashy pool of HP is still a good all-rounder (sans nuke) option. You can whinge about it not being a specialist spell in any one category, and that's fine.
That Sorc had Effortless Concentration, a summon spell was practically a prebuff any time there was turn 1 without the foes being directly exposed.
Because yes, even that "summon as a prebuff" angle is a very real factor. If you don't have LoS for your meteor rain nuke, you still want to make good use of your turn.
You're not able to get good targeting for dmg/debuffs, nor will HP be gone for healing. Storm Giant has 3 spells in the tank, 5 rocks in the bag, and most action cost on the up front summoning. Compared to most stat buff or sustain spells, that's a damn compelling offer.
Going even further, no one said you had to wait until mid-combat to conjure that minion, you can do so before door kick if you are so inclined.
Like with Contingency, you are making tradeoffs with summon spells, but just because you're never going to compete with a "pure nuke" spell for damage does not mean it's a poor tradeoff to make.
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High level summons only being good because of free spell slots is a bit of an issue IMO. Otherwise the numbers are so bad that your summon can easily be ignored by the enemy because the potential threat is so low.
Wizard and Reanimator have options for broad +1 for summons, giving similar to the master summon feat line for Summoners and perhaps an item that all casters could use (say level 12 item or so) could help out higher level summons a good deal. Make it something you need to invest in. Just the option to make them elite, or anything that makes them have higher numbers without increasing the powers of what you can summon while also not fighting against party status buffs would be a huge help.
Making them elite is a genius keyhole solution, I love that
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I'd say the risks in summoned creatures stem from three main factors where they differ from party members:
In short: unlike player characters whose powers each strike a balance between strength and reliability, monsters sometimes have these showstopper abilities that have both in extreme amounts, like automatic d20 rerolls with no save attached. When these showstopping abilities ignore level scaling, this makes for summons that can have a significant impact in encounters even when many levels below the monsters being fought.
Making them elite is a genius keyhole solution, I love that
I was able to summon an elite silver dragon since I asked my GM if I could summon max level for the spell and do ice damage since everything in the spell range was fire and he took pity on me. It still did nothing, enemy crit saved against breath, it missed 6 attacks and two AoO. It's still a good start to a solution for high level summons though.
Teridax,
1:that's part of the point of a summon is to have a monster that goes all out.
2: bone croupier is not a valid summon due to being uncommon. Find a few examples of common creatures that have powerful abilities that still work with a level difference of 5-7.
3: as with #2 the majority of abilities a monster can bring are made near useless by the fact they will be five to seven or more levels bellow what you are fighting. Any summon against a boss or mini boss is edging close to a full level of success behind on all checks. That makes them so far away from solo an enemy that they struggle to make any offensive effect on the battlefield.
Raising the level of what you can summon means not only will their checks be better, but their abilities and raw numbers will as well, so I don't think that's a good solution. I think after level 10 when your summoning things -5 level to you, increasing their effective level by one or two via elite template would help keep their math relevant to your fights while not bringing in powerful abilities.
Their should be some level of buy in, like a feat or item, but summons should be more then buffers and roadblocks.
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Teridax,
1:that's part of the point of a summon is to have a monster that goes all out.
"Goes all out" and "wrecks the encounter due to a broken ability that was never intended to be used by the players" are not the same thing. Monsters are full of the latter kind of ability, and their disruptive nature is what makes summon spells so disruptive even now.
2: bone croupier is not a valid summon due to being uncommon. Find a few examples of common creatures that have powerful abilities that still work with a level difference of 5-7.
Gladly:
So even now, it is entirely possible to summon a common creature with a summon spell and break the game's balance over your knee. That most summons suck and don't scale poorly is irrelevant to the fact that there are summons out there that are already problematic, and each new monster introduced to the game runs the risk of adding to the pile if it can be summoned.
3: as with #2 the majority of abilities a monster can bring are made near useless by the fact they will be five to seven or more levels bellow what you are fighting. Any summon against a boss or mini boss is edging close to a full level of success behind on all checks. That makes them so far away from solo an enemy that they struggle to make any offensive effect on the battlefield.
As already pointed out, and as shown by the above, the problem comes specifically from monster abilities that don't rely on a check or DC to work. These monster abilities aren't all that rare, either, nor are they exclusive to rarer monsters.
Their should be some level of buy in, like a feat or item, but summons should be more then buffers and roadblocks.
I agree, but the fact that summons can be buffers and roadblocks is a problem in a game where buffers and roadblocks can be incredibly powerful. I think part of the problem here is that we expect summons to be more than just a big wall of HP that gets in the way, but aren't necessarily acknowledging that spells like wall of stone are amazing precisely because you're creating this wall of HP that gets in the way. Even if we put aside the edge cases, that's still very strong. I personally would like summons to feel better and not have such awful modifiers and DCs relative to the enemy, but I think that means finding ways to give up on the stuff that's not as important, like the HP being added to the fight.
Personally, I think there are three main ways summons could be improved:
So it's not that I don't want summon spells to be made better, I just think they need to be made better in a way that avoids their current pitfalls. I don't think we can just jack up the stats of summons without consequence, but I do think summons in general could be approached in a different way that would allow them to feel good at what they're meant to do.
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I would have liked if summon spells had a specific list of available summons and how those summons advanced by level. Something like how animal companions are handled. The type of creature you summon would all share a stat block but the individual kind of summon determines attack types, abilities and so on. So for example:
Summon Undead for instance would have a certain stat block, but being a zombie or skeleton would determine it's weakness, resistances, and 2 of a list of 3 or 4 types of attacks that suit them as well as certain abilities (zombie brute would get grab, skeleton might get a ranged attack to go with a melee attack) and so on.
Summon Animal would have a stat block shared by all summoned animals but the type of animal determines it's move types as well as a list of attacks and abilities that different animals might have.
Or even more simply summons could have been made share the players stats with some modifiers and it's own HP but have access to different attacks and abilities based on the type of thing summoned.
I think having a selection of attacks and abilities that the caster can choose would have been a nice way to allow summons to be versatile without requiring the player have access to the monster manual to browse through all the options.
Lastly, it would have been easier to balance something like this. Two creatures of the same level can have vastly different stats and capabilities. Monsters were not designed to fight other monsters after all, they were designed to fight PC's.
Based on the D&D 5E 2024 feedback, a lot of players are hooked on the idea of summoning "real" monsters, so I think it would be best to add any formulaic summons as a new set of spells or an alternate option for the existing ones.
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2: bone croupier is not a valid summon due to being uncommon. Find a few examples of common creatures that have powerful abilities that still work with a level difference of 5-7
Not only is this an errata, it's an unusual errata to an AP volume that was not compiled into a single book. Bone Croupier was *THE* use for Summon Undead from the time it was printed until the time it was errata'd.