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I'm surprised; the Animist is a power gamer's dream. At high level, you get to Grapple and make Reactive Strikes from 30 feet away at about martial-grade accuracy, and that same feat can be retrained the next day to add one of the strongest battle form spells to a focus spell that already gives you three battle forms for free, which you can also swap out every day. You can cast falling stars, quandary, uncontrollable dance, wrathful storm, and canticle of everlasting grief all on the same class, while also having a repertoire of 36 signature spells that you can swap out each day and 3 Focus Points, and that's just your class features. I definitely recommend you give that class a try.
I looked again at the animist, the only battleform focus spell I see is a sustain spell on a class that doesn't have effortless concentration.
Maybe they have some feat under another name that let's them sustain like Effortless concentration, but an Untamed Form that doesn't take up a Sustain action is not as good as one that doesn't.
Animist is a bit of an odd class. I'd have to see it in operation to confirm your claims, because on paper they don't look to match the druid.
I may try one to actually see it work, but they definitely don't have Form Control or Perfect Form control and thus cannot engage in the same level of utility use in other forms as a druid.
It doesn't sound like they have 36 signature spells given that the spell slots are split and each slot must be used for the appropriate type of spell.
My wife played an untamed Druid in Ruby Phoenix and we didn't find the forms all that powerful at high level. Versatile, definitely. She could do a huge variety of things. But when it came down to combat, it tailed off at higher level as she just had no way to keep up with the actual martials accuracy wise. So it didn't feel great when she couldn't really keep up with the others except as a spellcaster, which was definitely effective.
I'd love to see a shifter class archetype that buffs up the forms and reduces spellcasting so that kind of build feels better, since it's not really a power problem (Druid is pretty good), just that specific fantasy isn't well-served right now.
This I agree with as well. If I had to make a larger, more structural criticism of the Druid, is that their identity as "the primal caster" not only leads to them feeling quite generic to some players, but also makes it difficult to fully cater to any one of the many playstyles and fantasies tied to them. Shapeshifting in my opinion is very underserved in PF2e, and I fully agree with you that battle forms drop off in effectiveness at higher levels even on the dedicated battle form subclass. I'd very much like to see a Shifter class in 2e that leverages the full potential of transformations with a chassis custom-built for it.
I looked again at the animist, the only battleform focus spell I see is a sustain spell on a class that doesn't have effortless concentration.
Look again:
So not only does the class have multiple focus spells that each give them multiple battle forms at no feat cost, the class can also compress away the Sustain requirement of not only their focus spells, but all of their apparition spells at nearly half the level of most other casters.
I may try one to actually see it work, but they definitely don't have Form Control or Perfect Form control and thus cannot engage in the same level of utility use in other forms as a druid.
They absolutely can even without those feats. Walk the Wilds and Wind Seeker extend your battle form duration, add battle form spells to your apparition repertoire (which automatically turns them into signature spells), and buff your Acrobatics checks. Roaring Heart lets you Stride x2, Shove x2, and give yourself and your allies temp Hit Points, all for two actions at sixth level, and Instinctive Maneuvers lets you give yourself a +2 to your Athletics checks. Whispers of Warning gives disadvantage to an attack against you every round at no resource cost, Jester's Gambol lets you ignore difficult terrain, and Spirit's Sacrifice gives you multiple lifelines in case you do drop to 0. The Animist has some incredibly strong feats, many of which synergize heavily with battle forms, to the extent that I'd say they may even be the better battle form class at this stage.
It doesn't sound like they have 36 signature spells given that the spell slots are split and each slot must be used for the appropriate type of spell.
Oh, but they do. Each apparition you pick gives you a repertoire of spells, and all of your apparition spells are signature spells. Because each apparition gives you up to 9 spells and you end up preparing 4 apparitions each day, you get a repertoire of 4 x 9 = 36 spells. This is, by the way, in addition to the divine spells you can prepare, and you also get extra apparition spell slots at higher levels to boot, making you a 4-slot caster in all but your two highest spell ranks. I don't want to make this an "Animist strong" thread, but the class very much does eat the Druid's lunch here. Part of it is because the Animist is almost certainly too strong, but part of it is because, as others have pointed out, the Druid runs out of supporting features at higher levels that would otherwise help maintain the advantage they have over other casters in key statistics. Even in that respect, the Animist also currently matches the Druid thanks to their Wis key attribute, expert Fort saves at 3rd level, and medium armor proficiency, but at least the latter class could have a little something more to look forward to from their features at high level.
Ah I see what you're saying now Teridax. With 4 apparitions they have 4 apparition spells prepared at each rank. Fair. They aren't freely picked and they'll get only 2 slots/rank to cast them from, but that's still pretty good.
You'll have to remind me where we discussed the Animist, but almost, yes! With 4 apparitions, you have 4 apparition spells to choose from with your two 1st-rank slots, but then 8 to choose from with your two 2nd-rank slots, all heightened to that rank, all the way up to 36 spells to choose for your 9th-rank slot, all heightened to 9th rank. Although you mix and match from set menus each time, many apparitions offer some really strong spells, so you do get a lot of the best of all worlds.
I'm not sure it eats the druid's lunch. There's some good primal spells that don't appear on any apparition list. Chain lightning, haste, slow all spring to mind.
Haste and slow aren't in current apparitions for sure, so until the Animist gets a dedicated buffer/debuffer apparition they won't have literally all of the best buff spells around, but they very much do out-blast the Druid thanks to earth's bile, Channeler's Stance, and later Cardinal Guardians. As mentioned above, they get their own battle form focus spells that require less feat support than the Druid to scale and have lots of other feats to boost them, many of which can be flexibly reprepared to other feats, and they also get to become arguably the best full caster gish in the game. That's already a lot of the Druid's niches covered, and whereas the Druid has to normally commit feats and subclasses towards strengthening an aspect of their play, the Animist can swap out their apparitions and many of their feats each day. Thus, not only does the Animist eat the Druid's lunch in my opinion, they can do so while also doing a whole bunch of other things on top. And again, this is largely the fault of the Animist being overtuned in my opinion, but also partly the fault of the Druid lacking standout core features at high level besides their primal spellcasting.
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I'm not sure how one begets the other - an overpowered (or even above curve) class is very capable of eating the lunch of classes with more standout class features - by which I mean the fighter.
Notice that you've only answered the first part of the quote -- that the Animist is overpowered and eats the lunch of other classes -- but completely ignored the second part -- that the Druid lacks anything in their core features that gives them an edge other casters don't have at high level. Even if the Animist were balanced, they'd still be at risk of eating the Druid's lunch, because they have unique class features at high level and the Druid doesn't, even as both have overlap in what niches they can fill.
It does explains why you're asking for proficiency boosts instead of something unique but the core of your contention is 'I think all prepared casters should be at the animist/cleric power level' and not about the druid unique benefits being bad (except inasmuch as you believe that that makes them worse than the animist and cleric).
I'm not sure why you're assuming I want every spellcaster to be as powerful as the Animist, as I very much don't want that. I've repeatedly criticized the Animist for being grossly overpowered in this very thread, so clearly I'm not advocating for everyone else to be brought to that same level. I certainly do think the Cleric sets a good benchmark for making a satisfyingly powerful caster, and I don't see anything wrong with holding less powerful casters to that standard.
On top of this, I also think you're mischaracterizing my point: I've never once stated that the Druid's unique benefits are bad, in fact I've stated many times that their unique benefits are fantastic, including in the OP. What I've actually said, however, is that these unique benefits fall off at high level, such that the class features that set the Druid apart from the rest eventually cease to drive any difference. Again, I've repeatedly cited the example of their medium armor proficiency and early Fort saves to point out how those create above-average modifiers at earlier levels that eventually turn into the same modifiers as any caster's. Thus, the request here is specifically to keep that edge the Druid has at early level all the way through to high level, hence my suggestion of a couple of proficiency bumps.
It's still a situation I rather solve with better 12+ feats for the Druid than stuffing in more proficiency bumps.
And therein lies the issue: you're trying to address what is ultimately a core balance problem with optional elements. If the Druid had below-average feats at 12th level and above, then yeah, their current feats would benefit from improvements, but as it stands the Druid's feats are fantastic at all levels. No more powerful than the feat options for, say, the Bard or Cleric, but fantastic all the same. Introducing more powerful options would risk invalidating these feats and limiting the Druid's build variety overall, while creating a performance gap between those aware of the overpowered feats and those who aren't. This is why as much as I support giving the Druid and other classes more feats to support a wider range of builds, I absolutely do not believe the solution to this kind of issue is overpowered feats. The Druid isn't and never has been a class defined by overpowered feats, so I don't think that's a thing that needs to start now.
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I'd love to see a shifter class archetype that buffs up the forms and reduces spellcasting so that kind of build feels better, since it's not really a power problem (Druid is pretty good), just that specific fantasy isn't well-served right now.
I am once again asking for Paizo to add Shifter to 2E. It seems like such a slam dunk to me.
The underlying math system seems like it will work better for the shifter than first edition's. It's a mechanical and narrative niche that is unfulfilled and desired.I don't much care if it's a standalone class or some class archetype, but make it real, please.
My take on the Shifter specifically is that the Shifter wouldn't really be a full spellcaster, they'd mainly just enter battle forms, and so specifically to access the unique utility benefits of those forms while supplementing a martial chassis. This I think is meaningfully different from an Animal Barbarian, whose transformation is just a differently-flavored Rage that's got maybe a little utility sometimes but mostly just more damage, or a Dragon Barbarian who eventually, at a very high level, gets to transform into just one form. It would also be meaningfully different from an Untamed Druid, who's a full caster that can also use battle forms to deliver a decent portion of a martial class's Strike damage. Less so at higher levels, and one of the reasons why I'd like a proficiency bump to help there, but just enough to feel good -- yet still not quite martial-grade damage either, which is as it should be.
Of all the different kinds of spells to cast, battle form spells I think are the ones least likely to imbalance a martial class -- in fact, many battle forms would be downgrades to a martial class's damage and survivability, which is why Dragon Transformation needs to let the Barbarian use their own AC and add an extra bit of scaling at 18th level. One of the biggest design challenges for a Shifter class in PF2e would therefore be actually making battle form spells worthwhile on them if they're going to operate as more of a martial class, and the benefit of battle forms to a martial chassis would be utility, rather than raw damage or durability.
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My very rough contours of what a Shifter class ought to look like:
- You're not worried that if you go into battle form that you can't cast spells in battle form. (Probably because you don't cast that many spells, if any.)
- Your numbers in battle form are in line with normal martial numbers.
- You have some way to spend money on that. Maybe heavily into Handwraps?
- You're not worried about your battle forms becoming unreasonably big at higher levels.
- You can do this all day.
I'm not sure the actual mechanism for such a class should even be based on the current battle form family of spells. Maybe you'd end up much more like an eidolon without a summoner attached.
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My preference for shifter is they don't always go into full battle form in combat but utilize a hybrid form with the morph trait (as opposed to polymorph) that acts similarly to monk stances but they can stack these hybrid forms as they are only subject to morph limitations. I really want more of a chimera shifter that can also opt into singular battle forms for whatever reasons.
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but they very much do out-blast the Druid thanks to earth's bile, Channeler's Stance, and later Cardinal Guardians.
Have you actually PLAYED an Animist at high levels? Quite serious question, I'm genuinely curious.
Because my experience is radically different from yours. I find that I very rarely even bother with Channeler's Stance because it just isn't worth the action. Earth's Bile is nice but it more or less just compensates for the Animist having worse blasting spells.
My druid with chain lightning and hitting people with his pointy stick does at least as much damage as my animist (whether Animist or Druid does better in any particular encounter varies by the details of the encounter).
And Animist does NOT get access to Plant Shape or Dragon Shape.
I'm NOT remotely saying the Animist is weak. Its not. It can be made insanely flexible.
But it is pretty much on a par with a well built Druid power wise. The Animist is maybe, just maybe just a tiny smidgeon more powerful
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I'd love to see a shifter class archetype that buffs up the forms and reduces spellcasting so that kind of build feels better, since it's not really a power problem (Druid is pretty good), just that specific fantasy isn't well-served right now.I am once again asking for Paizo to add Shifter to 2E. It seems like such a slam dunk to me
It would require Paizo to first decide EXACTLY how Battle Forms work, what does and does not add to their base stats. See many threads for the long list of things that are unclear.
And Paizo seems totally and utterly unwilling to answer any of these questions, to actually decide how Battle Forms work.
If I sound bitter its because, well, I am :-). We've been shouting our questions since the playtest and Paizo just utterly refuses to answer.
Have you actually PLAYED an Animist at high levels? Quite serious question, I'm genuinely curious.
Yes, I have, and much of what you're saying doesn't track at all for me. Cycle of Souls eliminates the action cost of Channeler's Stance, and my Animist had plenty of great blast spells to choose from, whether it was falling stars, spirit blast, or wails of the damned. When I wanted to go full gish, I could similarly handily beat any Druid thanks to embodiment of battle and Forest's Heart. Not only that, but because I would swap out these vessel spells and wandering feats out each day, I could respec better than any class -- by contrast, a Druid would have to commit feats towards any one of these directions and stick to them.
And Animist does NOT get access to Plant Shape or Dragon Shape.
Nor do they need to; your focus spells already give you battle forms for those levels, and the single feat needed to fill in the gap at higher level is a wandering feat.
But it is pretty much on a par with a well built Druid power wise. The Animist is maybe, just maybe just a tiny smidgeon more powerful
It's not maybe, and it's not a smidgen. The Animist isn't just easily more powerful than the Druid, they're more powerful than any class when you build them properly. They're one of the strongest blasters in the game, the strongest gish full caster, and the strongest shapeshifter, and the best part is: all three of those could very well be the same character, sometimes even the same character within the same day. And again, part of the problem here is that the Animist is far too strong, but the Druid would not be so vulnerable to having their lunch eaten by any class that approaches their niche at high level if they had just a little something more going for them at those high levels.
Which is not surprising, because no matter what fancy cool name you give to some new shifter class or feat, all the pro-shifters seem to be asking for something like "you use your own statistics, temporary Hit Points, and unarmed attacks instead of those granted by animal form. You also retain the constant abilities of your gear..."
....which is the exact text of animal rage.
All the pro-shifters, you say?
My take on the Shifter specifically is that the Shifter wouldn't really be a full spellcaster, they'd mainly just enter battle forms, and so specifically to access the unique utility benefits of those forms while supplementing a martial chassis. This I think is meaningfully different from an Animal Barbarian, whose transformation is just a differently-flavored Rage that's got maybe a little utility sometimes but mostly just more damage, or a Dragon Barbarian who eventually, at a very high level, gets to transform into just one form. It would also be meaningfully different from an Untamed Druid, who's a full caster that can also use battle forms to deliver a decent portion of a martial class's Strike damage. Less so at higher levels, and one of the reasons why I'd like a proficiency bump to help there, but just enough to feel good -- yet still not quite martial-grade damage either, which is as it should be.
Of all the different kinds of spells to cast, battle form spells I think are the ones least likely to imbalance a martial class -- in fact, many battle forms would be downgrades to a martial class's damage and survivability, which is why Dragon Transformation needs to let the Barbarian use their own AC and add an extra bit of scaling at 18th level. One of the biggest design challenges for a Shifter class in PF2e would therefore be actually making battle form spells worthwhile on them if they're going to operate as more of a martial class, and the benefit of battle forms to a martial chassis would be utility, rather than raw damage or durability.
All of which is to say: I beg to differ. There are plenty of things battle forms can do that don't limit themselves to animal form or dragon form -- in fact, I think we don't even need to limit ourselves to primal battle form spells here, and there are plenty of other battle form spells out there with interesting benefits.
The OP's proposal (give Master fort saves) does absolutely nothing to buff up the main problem of using polymorph spells as your main attack strategy.
It is interesting that you would have chosen to focus on exactly one of the two proposals I made that also happens to be exactly the one not aimed at boosting the Druid's attacks. As it stands, master Fort saves would absolutely benefit a battle form Druid by making them more resilient. That's what saving throws are for, and I'm not sure why you would want them to also buff your attacks.
Much more relevant to the topic at hand, however, is my other suggestion to potentially give the Druid master proficiency in simple weapons and unarmed attacks, with 19th level given as a safe level. I'm sure you'll agree that this is much more salient to the Druid's ability to attack using polymorph spells, particularly given untamed form's ability to boost your Strike accuracy if you use your own attack modifier. Important to note, however, is that even with an attack modifier equal to that of martial classes (which isn't dissimilar from the Druid currently being able to exceed the attack modifier of martial classes at early levels), the Druid would still not be dealing fully martial-grade damage: martial classes have custom-made class features aimed to boost their Strike damage output, the Druid does not. Martial classes have plenty of feats to further enhance their effectiveness with attacks, while the Druid is already committing all the feats they can just to get to the baseline. Being a touch under martial classes when you heavily commit your build towards it as the battle form specialist I'd say is a reasonable expectation to set, wouldn't you agree?
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Look again:
The Animist has two battle form vessel spells, darkened forest form and devouring dark form.
The Liturgist practice lets you automatically Sustain apparition and vessel spells each time you Leap, Step, and Tumble Through, and so at 9th level rather than 16th level.
So not only does the class have multiple focus spells that each give them multiple battle forms at no feat cost, the class can also compress away the Sustain requirement of not only their focus spells, but all of their apparition spells at nearly half the level of most other casters.
That still requires an action you may not want to use. I don't see that as as good as the druid.
I will test the performance of the animist versus the druid at some point. See if I agree with the assessment. I have measured druid damage output and they equal or exceed martials, by a lot in multitarget scenarios. Druid is one of if not the the most powerful damage caster in the game. If I can exceed it with the animist, I will post that I have.
That still requires an action you may not want to use. I don't see that as as good as the druid.
When would you not want to move while polymorphed into a melee battle form? What better use are you finding for your third action while in this battle form?
I have measured druid damage output and they equal or exceed martials, by a lot in multitarget scenarios. Druid is one of if not the the most powerful damage caster in the game. If I can exceed it with the animist, I will post that I have.
Interesting, what was your build? How did your Druid's spell damage perform relative to a primal Sorcerer or Witch?
But it isn't a core balance issue? Everyone seems to agree high level druid is plenty good unless you compare it with the animist (which you yourself think is overpowered).
It is, and the handful of people repeatedly defending the Druid's state have either argued on the merits of the class's benefits at early levels (which isn't relevant to their high-level performance), or simply listed the merits of the primal tradition, most of which could apply just as well to any other primal full caster (and, again, other primal full casters have other features on top). I'm not the only one criticizing the irrelevance of most of the pushback, as Squiggit called this out early on, and one of the people criticized outright admitted to not having read the OP.
By contrast, I have taken great pains to list out exactly what the Druid's core features are relative to other casters, and point out exactly where many of those essential benefits cease to carry relevance. I am also not the only one to criticize the Druid on this thread, nor even the only one to point out that their ability to excel in battle forms drops off at high level. You can feel however you like about the Druid, and that's your prerogative, but your feelings cannot serve as fact, and do not invalidate the verifiable fact that the Druid, at high level, loses the benefits of many of the perks that define them at lower levels.
Like, you're jumping between 'druids are weak at high level' and 'druids lack unique features at high levels' and these are not the same critique. People trying to directly talk to you are going around in circles because even in your direct reply to me you can't make your mind up if it's a balance (power) problem or a uniqueness (flavour) problem.
Because it is both, and you are driving a false dichotomy here, just as you have repeatedly tried to mischaracterize my extremely simple position. It's not like I haven't bent over backwards to explain it already, either:
And to be clear: this isn't a claim that the Druid is especially weak at high level, because simply being any kind of generic full caster at high level is going to be very powerful. This is a claim that at high level, the benefits that set the Druid apart from other casters at early level no longer exist, and the Druid finds themselves with the same basic statistics as other Wisdom casters who, on top of having the same spell slots and equally good feats, also have extremely powerful class features.
So you explain to me: why is this such a difficult point to understand? Why do you refuse to acknowledge this and instead try to frame my position as something it's not? Because again, my position here is not only extremely simple, it is backed up by hard numbers, in this case the Druid's modifiers. That the Druid feels fine to you at higher levels does not sit in contradiction with the fact that they find themselves with no distinguishing core features at a point where every other caster, including primal casters, gets the benefits of the primal spell list along with the same proficiencies and AC.
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They absolutely can even without those feats. Walk the Wilds and Wind Seeker extend your battle form duration, add battle form spells to your apparition repertoire (which automatically turns them into signature spells), and buff your Acrobatics checks. Roaring Heart lets you Stride x2, Shove x2, and give yourself and your allies temp Hit Points, all for two actions at sixth level, and Instinctive Maneuvers lets you give yourself a +2 to your Athletics checks. Whispers of Warning gives disadvantage to an attack against you every round at no resource cost, Jester's Gambol lets you ignore difficult terrain, and Spirit's Sacrifice gives you multiple lifelines in case you do drop to 0. The Animist has some incredibly strong feats, many of which synergize heavily with battle forms, to the extent that I'd say they may even be the better battle form class at this stage.
Walk the Wilds still a sustain and only 5 minutes. Are you sure you mean Wind Seeker? It doesn't seem to extend anything. I'm not sure how you are comparing this to the druid's form control feats.
Shove is a limited maneuver. Never use it unless forcing my way into a room.
Instinctive Maneuvers is pretty good. I wonder if you could pick that up as a druid.
Whispers of Warning doesn't work against critical hits. That is what you would most want to use something like that for. I usually pick up Opportune Backstab or Reactive strike on druids to use in conjunction with Trip or general attacking.
Oh, but they do. Each apparition you pick gives you a repertoire of spells, and all of your apparition spells are signature spells. Because each apparition gives you up to 9 spells and you end up preparing 4 apparitions each day, you get a repertoire of 4 x 9 = 36 spells. This is, by the way, in addition to the divine spells you can prepare, and you also get extra apparition spell slots at higher levels to boot, making you a 4-slot caster in all but your two highest spell ranks. I don't want to make this an "Animist strong" thread, but the class very much does eat the Druid's lunch here. Part of it is because the Animist is almost certainly too strong, but part of it is because, as others have pointed out, the Druid runs out of supporting features at higher levels that would otherwise help maintain the advantage they have over other casters in key statistics. Even in that respect, the Animist also currently matches the Druid thanks to their Wis key attribute, expert Fort saves at 3rd level, and medium armor proficiency, but at least the latter class could have a little something more to look forward to from their features at high level.
I will have to see how this mechanic works. It doesn't look this way on paper, but I haven't built on yet.
The animist did not look over strong to me. I have run some builds with it. It looks odd, like it spreads itself around too much without allowing it to build into something very strong. The feats are not as attractive as you are making them seem, neither are the practices.
I play the druid a certain way. If I can't match it with the animist, I will see it in play. I usually do storm-untamed form for power. I am not sure what I can combine or what practice is the strongest or if I can combine practices. I guess I will find out when I build one.
The oracle looked a little weak on paper, but playing one they are very strong.
Though neither the oracle nor the animist gets Effortless concentration. Druid is the only wisdom caster with effortless concentration. This feat is very powerful at high level. One of the best caster action economy boosters in the game.
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hat the Druid lacks anything in their core features that gives them an edge other casters don't have at high level. Even if the Animist were balanced, they'd still be at risk of eating the Druid's lunch, because they have unique class features at high level and the Druid doesn't, even as both have overlap in what niches they can fill.
What are you talking about? The druid has a great many advantages over other casters.
1. 8 hit point caster.
2. Wisdom as many stat. Can dump charisma and intelligence allowing them to focus all stat boosts and increases in the top four high value stats.
3. Best defensive options for a starting caster.
4. Primal list which allows them to heal and blast with the same character.
5. Untamed form feats allow them to take more versatile forms than any other class.
6. Only wisdom based caster with Effortless Concentration. Only other 8 hit point caster with bard that gets Effortless Concentration.
7. Able to easily delve into other orders for a very broad base of abilities.
8. One of the best if not the best caster for doing a combination of martial and caster damage.
No caster is eating the druid's lunch because it's very hard to do. If Paizo adds much more to the druid, they risk the druid becoming too powerful.
I don't know where you're getting your conclusion from because in play, I can guarantee the numbers favor druids. They do very, very well across all levels. Much better than other casters.
That's why your thread is a unicorn: the rare thread complaining about the druid.
You're writing walls of text like usual to push this idea that isn't what you think it is. Those feats you are claiming are these great feats are nothing a power gamer wants. Power gamers want simple, effective feats that don't even make them think about using something like shove when it's not a great combat maneuver. A sustain battleform spell...why would anyone want that when even the base battleform spells aren't sustain.
It's not as strong a selling point as you are pushing. It's not eating even any crumbs off the druid's plate. Druid is still feeling great looking over at the animist.
Walk the Wilds still a sustain and only 5 minutes. Are you sure you mean Wind Seeker? It doesn't seem to extend anything. I'm not sure how you are comparing this to the druid's form control feats.
How is a sustain requirement relevant when you're exploring? Fair do on Wind Seeker, but even so, Walk the Wilds extends the duration of your animal form all the same, and Wind Seeker lets you use your focus spell to fly (before you automatically unlock elemental form and get a fly Speed of 80 feet anyway).
Shove is a limited maneuver. Never use it unless forcing my way into a room.
... which is exactly what this feat has you do. It does a massive number of things for just two actions.
Instinctive Maneuvers is pretty good. I wonder if you could pick that up as a druid.
Yes, at 16th level and after taking two feats.
Whispers of Warning doesn't work against critical hits. That is what you would most want to use something like that for. I usually pick up Opportune Backstab or Reactive strike on druids to use in conjunction with Trip or general attacking.
Given that hits are much more common than critical hits, I'd think that no, preventing hits is definitely what you'd most want to use something like that for, even if being able to prevent critical hits on top would certainly be nice (and even more overpowered). Remind me at which level you're getting these other feats? Isn't it 16th level at the earliest for Opportune Backstab, 4th level for Reactive Strike with a Fighter archetype that gives very little with its dedication, or 12th level otherwise? How many archetypes are you taking on here, and how many feats are you committing to them that you're not putting into your Druid feats?
I will have to see how this mechanic works. It doesn't look this way on paper, but I haven't built on yet.
I am quite literally describing to you how the mechanic works. It can look however you feel, but that is how the Animist's apparition repertoire is designed.
The animist did not look over strong to me. I have run some builds with it. It looks odd, like it spreads itself around too much without allowing it to build into something very strong. The feats are not as attractive as you are making them seem, neither are the practices.
I play the druid a certain way. If I can't match it with the animist, I will see it in play. I usually do storm-untamed form for power. I am not sure what I can combine or what practice is the strongest or if I can combine practices. I guess I will find out when I build one.
It doesn't sound like you've built them correctly, nor like you've leveraged the flexibility of their daily apparition attunement or wandering feats. What builds did you go for, and what feats did you select at each level?
Also, take it from me: pick the Liturgist. It is by far the most powerful practice, and nearly every Animist build I've seen uses it. I'll be interested in seeing what you're comparing for damage, given how earth's bile is a single-action spell that slides in neatly alongside other blast spells (and therefore lets you double-dip on Channeler's Stance each round), whereas tempest surge is a focus spell that's meant to replace more powerful slot spells like thunderstrike.
The oracle looked a little weak on paper, but playing one they are very strong.
Off-topic here, but: how?! How did a four-slot, 8 HP/level caster with light armor proficiency register as weak on paper? Genuinely curious here; you're just about the only person I know who thought of the postmaster Oracle as weak.
Though neither the oracle nor the animist gets Effortless concentration. Druid is the only wisdom caster with effortless concentration. This feat is very powerful at high level. One of the best caster action economy boosters in the game.
If you like Effortless Concentration, then let me tell you, you're going to love the Liturgist. Again, getting that kind of action compression at 9th level, and without even needing to spend a feat either, is a game-changer.
What are you talking about? The druid has a great many advantages over other casters.
1. 8 hit point caster.
2. Wisdom as many stat. Can dump charisma and intelligence allowing them to focus all stat boosts and increases in the top four high value stats.
3. Best defensive options for a starting caster.
4. Primal list which allows them to heal and blast with the same character.
5. Untamed form feats allow them to take more versatile forms than any other class.
6. Only wisdom based caster with Effortless Concentration. Only other 8 hit point caster with bard that gets Effortless Concentration.
7. Able to easily delve into other orders for a very broad base of abilities.
8. One of the best if not the best caster for doing a combination of martial and caster damage.
The Animist satisfies points 1 through 3, gets more spells to choose from than even the Cleric to heal and blast, gets to prepare a focus spell that gives them three battle forms at no feat investment, can compress Sustain actions into movement 7 levels earlier than the Druid accesses Effortless Concentration, can easily delve into a variety of focus spells and additional spells at literally zero feat cost, and outperforms the Druid on both martial and caster damage. Most of the benefits you're describing here are also obtained through feats, not features, and do not exceed what other casters can gain through their own feats. Thus, and this still bears repeating, the issue I'm pointing out with the Druid specifically lies with their class features, and specifically at high level, where they clearly lack innate benefits relative to other casters (including other Wisdom casters).
You were a definite for master fort saves, and a 'potentially' for master attacks. So I responded to the thing you definitely suggested Paizo change, and didn't quibble about your 'potentially.'
Of course a bonus to fort saves is a benefit. It's just a nonsequitur. I think most people consider the unfun bits of the shifter theme to be that it lags too far behind on attack at high levels, and the size issues make it unavailable in many encounters. Fort save just isn't relevant to those.
"You said 'potentially', so I get to pretend like you never mentioned the thing at all" is, I'm sorry to say, a really weaksauce defense for a poor argument. You 100% did quibble about my "potentially", and in fact you're continuing to do so now. Accusing me of making a non-sequitur when it is specifically you who purposefully chose to bring up a suggestion irrelevant to the topic you designated, and so in deliberate ignorance of the suggestion directly relevant to said topic, is gaslighting, and I would ask you to not do that.
I'm generally fine with this, particularly since the high level at which you add it basically means the class unchanged for >95% of play. But I don't think it needs it to be a fine contributor and a satisfying role play experience.
Great, so we agree that it would be fairly uncontroversial and would help directly remediate one of the issues you brought up! I'm very happy to hear that you feel the Druid doesn't need this to assist in their roleplaying, and as a matter of fact I fully agree with you on this, which is why I never once complained that the Druid doesn't feel good to play or can't roleplay in a satisfactory manner. It looks to me like we actually have a fair bit of common ground here; had that been the starting point of this conversation I feel we would've had a much more productive exchange overall.
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Druid should not get master attacks or saves. The overall package is brutal enough as it is. I spent time tracking druid damage over levels. The ability to spike damage with primal blasting, then still maintain good damage with untamed form and/or good martial ability, and the overall utility of Untamed form made them one of the most powerful and useful members of any group they are in.
They are better than clerics at higher level when the font heals don't matter near as much. Far more versatile than clerics. They can fill a sort of blaster and healer roll at the same time allowing far more varied party builds.
Druid obviates the need for the cleric, but a cleric doesn't obviate the usefulness of a druid.
I don't know the animist and haven't played one. I don't like to speak much about classes I haven't played either good or bad. I know what I'm seeing on paper and that is not better than a druid. Different, but not better. Not worse either. I really couldn't say for sure right now.
Druid should not get master attacks or saves. The overall package is brutal enough as it is. I spent time tracking druid damage over levels. The ability to spike damage with primal blasting, then still maintain good damage with untamed form and/or good martial ability, and the overall utility of Untamed form made them one of the most powerful and useful members of any group they are in.
Quick question: what made this better than, say, a primal Sorcerer blasting with the bonus to their spell damage and then using a battle form spell, to say nothing of elemental toss as a third action and the bonus damage from blood magic? Because it seems like you're relying an awful lot here on the basic merits of the primal spell list without really describing anything specific to the Druid. It may be in fact one of the issues being described in this thread.
They are better than clerics at higher level when the font heals don't matter near as much. Far more versatile than clerics. They can fill a sort of blaster and healer roll at the same time allowing far more varied party builds.
... you mean, like Clerics? The class that not only gets six bonus 10th-rank slots for heal spells, but can also use those spells in incredibly versatile ways, including to blast?
But also: within the exact same paragraph, you're claiming "font heals don't matter near as much", but then also hold healing as an important enough role to serve as a point of comparison. So what is the truth?
Druid obviates the need for the cleric, but a cleric doesn't obviate the usefulness of a druid.
How so? How is your Druid going to cast heroism, roaring applause, breath of life, or wails of the damned? How many high-rank spells are they going to need to sacrifice in order to heal worse than a Cleric's divine slots? Because it looks an awful lot to me like not only does the Cleric match the Druid on pure spellcasting, they still get their divine font while the Druid gets... what, exactly, from their core features?
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4. Primal list which allows them to heal and blast with the same character.
I think you are underselling the Primal list. It has some good control and buff options. But also reasonable healing is fairly easy for any character to have at higher level.
OK, sure, thanks for finally stating your position?
You mean, the position I'd already stated several times, as demonstrated by the quote provided?
So my final answer us that no, the Druid is perfectly competitive at higher levels, unless your comparison point is the Animist. The fact their starting features cease relevance at high levels doesn't cost them at higher levels, because not having to patch holes at lower level gives them room to pick stuff that will still work at high levels.
Okay, which stuff? How does this compare to stuff other casters can pick that would be just as relevant at those levels? Because those "holes" are induced specifically when you try to do some of the things the Druid does at early level -- like walk into melee and Strike -- which classes like the Cloisted Cleric don't have to worry too much about early on, and can do without having to pick compensatory Armor Proficiency feats at higher levels. At the end of the day, the Druid gets the same number of feats as other casters, so again, this comes across as yet another attempt to contrive special status where none exists.
You will probably disagree with this but I think this is also a perfectly valid stance - certainly if we're talking about casters who fall off at higher levels there's several more pressing to fix. Which probably won't be fixed anyway, but still.
Believing that the Druid feels fine to play is never something I disagreed with -- I've just pointed out numerous times that this is completely irrelevant to the topic of how their class features objectively compare to other classes at high level. You don't have to agree with me, but asserting your opinion as fact when the actual facts disagree with you is what's caused a lot of your posts to go nowhere. I also don't see the point of creating yet another false dichotomy here: just because other casters may fall off at higher levels (which ones?) doesn't mean we need to dismiss the Druid's case -- in fact, if you feel this is a problem with other classes, you could even bring those up in their own threads! Something tells me you won't, but still, it would be a lot more productive than trying to convince someone that their thread is invalid just because you feel a different way.
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I see now. Animists have 36 choices from their four apparitions for spells, but only 2 slots per level to cast them from.
2 slots are normal divine casting.
Then two apparition slots per level with up to 36 spells they can cast spontaneously.
Not as flexible as a druid with preparation or a sorcerer, but the apparition slots are flexible according to your chosen apparitions. Not sure how good that is overall.
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I think the question here is not what does the Druid get but rather. What does Druid trade for their proficiencies?, They get 8 hit points which is standard for casters, they get light armor, standard. They get 3 Slots of magic per rank, nice. They get Medium Armor, okay that is not standard...And they also get shield block, wait but why? Why did they trade out good spell casting features for defenses?
Lets be real here.
- Clerics get Divine Font, 4-6 max heal/harm slots.
- Bard gets super powerful Cantrips
- Oracles get 4 slots per rank and good level 1-2 Feats.
- Animist has spontaneous and prepared slots and ability to be super versatile.
Looks like the Druid traded cool spellcasting features for defensive features with only they have. Unless you count War-priest Doctrine Cleric....Then even still they aren't even despite Druids gets Legendary Spell DCs/Attack Rolls, Divine Font is just better overall.
To me, the druid is on the weaker side of casters, kind of a jack-of-all-trades, master of none.
The good:
- He's sturdy.
- He uses WIS for casting.
- He can make use of effortless concentration
- He's the only WIS primal caster
- He can get an absurd amount of reach
- He's a prepared caster that knows his full spell list.
Now the bad:
- He's much weaker at blasting than a primal sorcerer. Sure, he's sturdier, but most players who want to blast will take extra damage AND extra casting over extra survivability.
- He's much weaker at healing than a cleric. No divine font and no bonus to dices means his in-combat heals will always be subpar. Also, being a prepared caster, you have to decide whether you'll slot in a heal in one your top-level slots or not, whereas the cleric doesn't have to, and the sorcerer doesn't need to.
- Even through Untamed Form, he's much weaker at melee than a dedicated melee - although the stat spread can help it some. It's especially painful when in cramped space, and ALL APs actually have some dungeoneering at one time or another. Also, no natural spell means he'd better be sure he won't need to change back to help a friend through battle medicine or emergency heal.
- His fast animal companion progression can be easily reproduced via an archetype (beastmaster) while some of his best focus spells come online early enough to get poached with two feats.
- His feats are pretty tame. He gets effortless concentration, which is great, but a lot of his other feats expend on keeping wildshape relevant or giving crappy focus spells.
So he can't blast very well, he can't heal very well, he can't melee very well, he can't tank very well and he's not a skill monkey.
What's left for him is being able to use Untamed Form for exploration (as long as he sinks an awful lot of feats) and, well, that's about it. Untamed form is horrible to use since it usually costs you a whole round (form control isn't sturdy enough). So either you start a fight by doing it and lose the most important round, where you could have turned the tide through mass slow or chain lightning, or you do it at the end to mope up, where you basically could use a cantrip. Also, healing in combat is usually counterproductive, BUT you need someone to do it anyway in case of an emergency, to prevent a wipe. This means that unless someone else has heal on his spell list, you're SOL when you're in Untamed Form.
So, yeah, I really think druid needs a buff. And I also think Beastmaster needs to be nerfed, but that's another subject.
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I think the question here is not what does the Druid get but rather. What does Druid trade for their proficiencies?, They get 8 hit points which is standard for casters, they get light armor, standard. They get 3 Slots of magic per rank, nice. They get Medium Armor, okay that is not standard...And they also get shield block, wait but why? Why did they trade out good spell casting features for defenses?
Lets be real here.
- Clerics get Divine Font, 4-6 max heal/harm slots.
- Bard gets super powerful Cantrips
- Oracles get 4 slots per rank and good level 1-2 Feats.
- Animist has spontaneous and prepared slots and ability to be super versatile.Looks like the Druid traded cool spellcasting features for defensive features with only they have. Unless you count War-priest Doctrine Cleric....Then even still they aren't even despite Druids gets Legendary Spell DCs/Attack Rolls, Divine Font is just better overall.
Once again, why do you think divine font is better overall? I have played a few clerics and divine font becomes progressively less useful as characters get more powerful. They need less in combat healing and out of combat healing is cheaper.
Your list doesn't take into account the overall abilities of the druid. I'm wondering if you and Teridax really think the designers fall for this stuff.
Druid: Only wisdom based primal caster. Primal list better for blasting than the divine list.
Feats are amazing compared to cleric and oracles. Definitely on par with the bard.
Best at Untamed Form: No sustain Untamed Form spell. Feats to extended Untamed Form to all the time. Most upgrade feats so you can turn into almost anything.
Good blaster feat line with Storm.
Able to mix and match orders to gain other abilities.
High level form feats not poachable by other classes.
Only 8 hit point primal caster.
This attempt to paint Divine font as some kind of unique ability far better than the cleric fails to point out cleric feats are improved, but still not even close to as good as druid feats.
As someone playing an oracle right now, oracle feats are pretty sucky compared to druid feats.
Bard feats are good, but very narrowly focused. Bard isn't as good at damage dealing as the druid, but that's not their thing anyway.
You're really trying to paint this picture of the druid as lacking when people that build them and play them know otherwise. They are one of the highest damage dealing classes in the game. One of the only casters I've seen consistently equal to beat martials dealing damage across all levels.
Druids are very versatile.
Divine Font? That ability is boring and loses its advantages past the low levels where very few PCs are getting dropped and in combat healing is a waste of resources.
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Quick word of correction on that, it's once per 10 minutes in the book (just not on AoN).
Good catch! That definitely makes the effect much more reasonable. I was wondering if it was normal for the Animist to get hit so infrequently with it, even by that class's standards. Will definitely make a note of this for future sessions.
I see now. Animists have 36 choices from their four apparitions for spells, but only 2 slots per level to cast them from.
2 slots are normal divine casting.
Then two apparition slots per level with up to 36 spells they can cast spontaneously.
Not as flexible as a druid with preparation or a sorcerer, but the apparition slots are flexible according to your chosen apparitions. Not sure how good that is overall.
This is significantly more flexible than a Druid or Sorcerer. Not only are you a prepared 2-slot caster, your other 1-2 slots per rank benefit from a repertoire as big as the Sorcerer's, except literally every spell is a signature spell and you get to rebuild that repertoire each day. You can't choose freely from a spell list, but you still get to choose powerful spells from across every tradition, making the Animist the class with the greatest access to spells outside their tradition in the game.
Your list doesn't take into account the overall abilities of the druid. I'm wondering if you and Teridax really think the designers fall for this stuff.
I'm gonna level with you: you're not one of the game's designers. Based on your judgments, your personal standards for what is and isn't powerful in my opinion do not match up to the designers', much less the performance of various builds. In this very thread, you assessed the postmaster Oracle as weak, implied the Druid out-blasts an Elemental Sorcerer, and repeatedly underestimate the Animist's abilities, going as far as to dismiss a -5 to enemy attack rolls as a reaction as weak even when we both missed that the ability needed to be reined in with a 10-minute frequency requirement. This isn't about making anyone fall for anything, this is about laying out the facts plainly and trying to have a conversation without overhyping or dismissing tangible mechanics based on completely arbitrary judgment calls. In this respect, and no matter how much you try to downplay it, the Cleric's divine font is a feature the class has and that the Druid doesn't, and despite the front you've put up to pretend the bonus healing doesn't matter at high level, it's clear that you value healing as a contribution, and would therefore value the Cleric's divine font more highly if it weren't so inconvenient to your argumentative position.
Well yes lol if we were to delete 90% of your opening post complaints, then delete your suggestion to give the class Master fort save, and we were to retain only the half a sentence suggestion to give L17-20 druids a higher attack rating when transformed, then we agree. I think in that case you'd probably get a lot of agreement!
Part of this may just be play style. I don't feel the need for characters to necessarily have a unique schtick to make them fun or effective. If the druid is "only" a highly effective blaster, healer, buffer and debuffer caster with a wider than normal range of noncombat polymorph forms as well as some circumstantially useful combat forms, I'm fine with that. If it blasts well and has good utility, it doesn't make me feel at all bad to think of someone else arriving at a similar set of capabilities with the animist. You do you. For on-level encounters with monsters, druid keeps the pace admirably. That's what's needed for balance. Not coming out even in a head-to-head white room comparison with someone else's animist build.
Except as other people have also mentioned, the Druid's lack of high-level features does have tangible consequences, such as their battle forms falling off. You may not personally feel strongly about this, and that's fine, but this is ultimately not a thread about your feelings, this is a thread that plainly lays out some basic facts that support my play experience with the Druid, and as it turns out the experience of other players too. You don't have to feel the same way, but by that same token your disagreement did not entitle you to engage in bad faith with the topic of discussion, nor resort to manipulative behavior in an argument. In the future, I would recommend that you lead with that common ground when you can, and use that as the basis for articulating what disagreement you may have, rather than gaslighting or straw-manning the person you've chosen to be your opponent.
'No distinguishing class features from L15 beyond' is one of the core bases of your argument, but it's not a fact at all. It's either just plain wrong or your opinion.
Depending on how pedantic you want to be then yes, the Druid can still talk to plants or animals as a free 1st-level feat and that's something other classes don't get in their class features, but I hope you're not resorting to this level of sophistry to try to justify your behavior. The example I did bring up of AC via medium armor proficiency falling off, however, is a verifiable fact: once again, a Druid with the basic +5 AC from medium armor will eventually have the same AC as a Cloistered Cleric with +5 Dex and explorer's clothing, which happens as early as 15th level. I listed out the benefits of the Druid in the OP to lay out plainly what they get over other casters and how those benefits lose relevance over time. That you would conspicuously and repeatedly avoid engaging with this I don't think signals an intent to have a discussion in good faith.
What is a fact is that of the ten L16-20 class feats, six of them are clearly distinguishable from other classes (two order spells, three untamed form buffs, one casting buff). In terms of experience of other players, you have at least one responder (Deriven) has said that Perfect Form Control - a L18 class feat - is something he has found useful. Thus the whole premise of your argument is really something closer to "I, Teridax, don't find the L16-20 druid class feats all that interesting or useful, so I think the class needs something in addition to them." Which is fine - not everybody need agree about the value of various class feats etc. - but 'no distinguishing...' is simply not a fact from which a compelling argument to buff the druid can be made.
You're confusing feats with class features, a conflation you are heavily relying on here to avoid addressing the actual topic of discussion. As I have already stated multiple times, the problem here has nothing to do with the Druid's feats, nor are the Druid's feats relevant to the discussion: the Druid has great feats, and those feats are just as great as the feats of other caster classes, who also happen to have unique class features on top. The existence of satisfying feats that are on-curve with competitors therefore does not exempt a class from having unique class features as well, and a class normally ought to have both. The Druid lacks meaningful class features at high levels, and that is something that I think ought to be addressed with their class features, not their feats.
To focus on the positive - It IS a common complaint that their forms don't keep up with martial melee contributions. I am personally wary of handing a full caster shapeshifting martial equivalency - I don't think that should or will happen - however I think there is probably some space to improve partway. So I agree with you there.
Good, at least we can agree on this. Even if we were to just limit ourselves to bumping up the Druid's attack proficiency to master at 19th level, that would still give the class a unique benefit to look forward to. It would also let the Druid stand out for being the only class with a legendary spell DC and master Strike proficiency, which they'd then be particularly good at leveraging with certain primal spells and untamed form. I'd still want to give the class a Fort save bump at 15th level so that they don't have this four-level gap where they still lack distinguishing benefits compared to most other classes, particularly as that would let the class survive better in melee as well, but that's not something I need to persuade you to agree on either.
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Even if we were to just limit ourselves to bumping up the Druid's attack proficiency to master at 19th level, that would still give the class a unique benefit to look forward to.
That's a pretty big bump for end-game, though. I agree that druid needs help, but that looks a bit extreme.
Considering a druid that uses his attack stat gets a +2 on top, that means that if you took 16 STR at creation, bumped it every time you can and took the apex item, you're still +1 ahead in accuracy against every single martial but the fighter (and gunslinger with guns).
Getting the second best accuracy of the game on top of being a full caster looks a bit too stacked for my taste. Plus, since you're using your own bonus, you can abuse the hell out of perfect form in order to start a fight shapechanged, negating the biggest drawback of Untamed form.
I agree that martials have a lot of other goodies on the side (and more feats to play with since an untamed druid had to burn some into upgrades) but still, it doesn't compare favorably to the sheer versatility of choosing your form + getting a full spell list to play with.
That's the problem with those jack-of-all-trades characters: since they're fairly good in every domain, once you upgrade one of those areas to make them competitive, they end up being unbalanced by all the other stuff they can do.
Maybe, like someone said in a previous post, it could be done in some kind of wavecasting fashion, like give them a magus progression, some goodies, and nerf their casting.
Considering a druid that uses his attack stat gets a +2 on top, that means that if you took 16 STR at creation, bumped it every time you can and took the apex item, you're still +1 ahead in accuracy against every single martial but the fighter (and gunslinger with guns).
If you're taking a Strength apex item as a Druid, you're effectively committing so hard to Striking that your broader spellcasting suffers as a result. Remember: as a Druid, you still don't get damage boosters like the Barbarian's Rage or the Rogue's Sneak Attack, and a large number of your feats are already being committed towards trying to match up to the base statistics of martial classes, so if you're specializing this hard and still falling significantly behind, as is the case now, then that build path is doomed to disappoint at high level.
Maybe, like someone said in a previous post, it could be done in some kind of wavecasting fashion, like give them a magus progression, some goodies, and nerf their casting.
Okay, let's humor this and suppose we massively nerf the Druid by making them into a wave caster: what are you giving them in exchange for this? Because simply letting them match martials in attack modifier or even exceed it by +1, something they already do right now at early levels, ain't gonna cut it. Your polymorphed Druid might be able to make accurate Strikes, and that's nice, but your martials' Strikes will still hit harder pound for pound, and that's before factoring in the benefit of their class features, or even just the traits on the weapons they're using. Not only that, but martial classes rarely just Strike, not when their feats let them make Strikes with bonus effects, including action compression, accuracy compression, utility, and other benefits. Attack modifiers are not the be-all and end-all to the power of martial classes, and if that were the case, then giving any caster a 9th-rank heroism spell would be enough for them to outperform a Thaumaturge.
Really, we need to stop assuming in these online discussions that martials are just beat sticks on legs. Martials don't just go into melee and whack enemies with naked Strikes, and while Strikes are a big part of their power, it's not where all of their power comes from. When a caster uses a battle form made for fighting, they do become a beat stick on legs -- they often gain a bit of utility on the side and the Druid certainly has feats to let them do a few more things, but ultimately they'll be making a lot of naked Strikes, and that's where their power will come from while polymorphed. If you want battle form Druids to become wave casters, fine by me, that's what a Shifter could easily end up looking like -- but you can't expect them to just remain beat sticks.
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Divine Font? That ability is boring and loses its advantages past the low levels where very few PCs are getting dropped and in combat healing is a waste of resources.I'm curious what you mean by this. If past the low levels very few PCs are going down and in-combat healing is not needed, are you dying from something other than damage or is every fight just a curb stomp? Is the action cost simply too high?
Combats are a lot more unpredictable in the early levels, but I still think healing in combat stays useful in nearly every fight that isn't an automatic victory even in later levels. If an enemy spends actions dealing damage and you heal that damage away, you're essentially taking actions away from the enemy, which tends to be useful. Even if you only want to heal when someone goes down, that still means you want to have healing as an option for when that happens. If your survival isn't threatened, healing doesn't matter, but neither does anything else. Unless it's an encounter where you aren't directly threatened and instead need to stop the enemy in time or something. In my experience, those encounters are the exception, not the rule.
Your hit point levels are so high as you level that the need for combat healing due to sudden crits is far lower.
My level 18 barbarian at the moment has 348 hit points. It's very hard to bring that down to a level in a single combat where I need healing during that combat.
So you wait out the fight and do Medicine between combat healing and your fine. Thus the reliance on Divine Font is far, far lower.
Whereas in those early levels as discussed in another thread a while back, a single crit my reduce your hit points to near death requiring combat healing fairly often. Those fonts are great to have to shore up the hit points in those early level combats.
You keep fighting at higher levels. If your hit points stay above or around 50, then you're ok to wait until between combat healing. Thus the fonts don't get used. They just sit there ending the day with 50 percent left.
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I'm gonna level with you: you're not one of the game's designers. Based on your judgments, your personal standards for what is and isn't powerful in my opinion do not match up to the designers', much less the performance of various builds. In this very thread, you assessed the postmaster Oracle as weak, implied the Druid out-blasts an Elemental Sorcerer, and repeatedly underestimate the Animist's abilities, going as far as to dismiss a -5 to enemy attack rolls as a reaction as weak even when we both missed that the ability needed to be reined in with a 10-minute frequency requirement. This isn't about making anyone fall for anything, this is about laying out the facts plainly and trying to have a conversation without overhyping or dismissing tangible mechanics based on completely arbitrary judgment calls. In this respect, and no matter how much you try to downplay it, the Cleric's divine font is a feature the class has and that the Druid doesn't, and despite the front you've put up to pretend the bonus healing doesn't matter at high level, it's clear that you value healing as a contribution, and would therefore value the Cleric's divine font more highly if it weren't so inconvenient to your argumentative position.
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No, I just know this game and have stated mechanically why I think the way I do. All this has showed up in play over time. I could show you at your own table while druid's are better than clerics in the majority of situations including the incredible power of untamed form.
I have said nothing of the kind about the sorcerer or postmaster oracle.
The sorcerer is one of the most powerful and versatile casters in the game. It is the best 6 hit point caster in the game. If you have been involved in any of the wizard threads, then you would have seen me state this.
I have stated the postmaster oracle is also one of the most powerful casters in the game.
I could discuss either of these classes in depth, especially the sorcerer.
The main statement I've made is the druid is in my experience the most powerful damage caster in the game. But this isn't due to blasting ability. It's due to the overall kit mixing blasting from spell slots and focus spells with martial damage from weapons and focus spells. I've found the druid shines playing them in a very versatile way not focusing on any single aspect of the class, but using all your capabilities as a whole to do a lot of damage in a wide variety of situations.
I've explained their advantages which you and a few others trying to manufacture this issue with druids as seems to be happening lately where classes with no problems suddenly have problems. You haven't answered many of my criticisms of your assessment.
Here are some again:
1. Druids are the only wisdom based primal caster.
2. Druids can focus on the four high value stats for ability increases including starting ability bonuses. People vastly underestimate the value of being able to focus all four stats on those four high value stats with an ability like Untamed Form.
As far as the divine font discussion, you should understand why it isn't as valuable as you're making it out to be. You can run absolutely fine without a cleric in any game in this edition. I often choose sorcs or druids as the healer's in our group builds because cleric healing is overkill.
You should mechanically understand why given the lack of consistency in number of fights per adventuring days, difficulty of fights, party composition, kill speed, hit point pools, and a variety of other factors.
How valuable is divine font if you're doing hex crawling with one fight a day? Not very valuable at all. Whereas a druid's untamed form may be very valuable if hexcrawling in areas with water, mountains, or areas where alternative movement is more valuable.
If you're fighting a single boss that isn't able to bring the group's hit points to a low level, how valuable is divine font? Not very. The druid's more damaging primal spells are more valuable for bringing down the boss faster.
What if you're fighting six monsters and you have a wizard in the group? Is the Divine font more valuable for healing while you engage the six monsters or the druid's second chain lightning to nuke the entire group into oblivion?
I've found the druid's versatile abilities more valuable than the extra heals tactically, especially so at higher levels.
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The animist doesn't look all that great. They have so few feats. That sustained battleform spell isn't great at all. That's bad action economy.
Half their spells are limited to their apparition spells.
I was even looking at earth's bile someone was touting a while back. It has slow scaling and is ok for a 1 action spell. It's a bit like a damaging witch hex.
I will try one at some point. I'm not feeling excited about the animist. It's so feat limited.
I did like Channeler's stance for sustained spell damage. That's unique to the animist, but you gotta be in that stance and you don't even get Effortless Concentration at high level to make this really cool.
Too bad channeler's stance didn't work for general spells. Only works for apparition spells. If I use an animist, channeler stance is definitely a feat I'd build around.
My level 18 barbarian at the moment has 348 hit points.
Crit failing your save against an ancient diabolic dragon will have you receive 147 damage on average. Even on your Barbarian, the class with the most Hit Points in the game that you appear to have beefed up even further with Toughness and Mountain's Stoutness, that's still nearly half their Hit Points. If your Wizard crit fails that save -- and, with Con +5 and a +10 HP ancestry, they'd have 208 HP at that level -- that's nearly three-quarters of their health. Throw another of those in the encounter, which isn't outside the realm of possibility given how high-level parties can manage extreme encounters, and one or more of your party members may easily find themselves burning to a crisp if you don't have powerful healing at the ready to get them out of the danger zone.
I have said nothing of the kind about the sorcerer or postmaster oracle.
You've repeatedly named the Druid as one of the best blasters and similarly admitted that "the oracle looked a little weak on paper". If your point is simply that the Druid uses the primal list, then that's not a very strong point, given that the same could be said of other primal casters, and that other traditions have their own, equally desirable advantages -- even the divine tradition, which at high level loses a lot of the disadvantages it starts off with at low level.
And to be clear, the point being made here is that the Druid and their contributions aren't valuable -- of course they are, spells will always be valuable, as are good feats. The point is that this by itself is not the benchmark for a caster's power, otherwise casters that had anything more than just a generic full caster chassis at high level would be massively overpowered. As a caster whose defining class features fall off at high level -- including their use of battle forms -- the Druid is an exception to this rule. That other primal casters can afford large benefits in the form of class features at those levels suggests that there's room to for some small-scale improvements, such as a couple of targeted proficiency bumps.
I did like Channeler's stance for sustained spell damage. That's unique to the animist, but you gotta be in that stance and you don't even get Effortless Concentration at high level to make this really cool.
Too bad channeler's stance didn't work for general spells. Only works for apparition spells. If I use an animist, channeler stance is definitely a feat I'd build around.
Why are you trying to blast with general spells when your apparitions give you fireball? Also, why are you not picking the Liturgist for that action compression level, it bears repeating, seven levels earlier than Effortless Concentration? This doesn't sound like you've tried out the Animist, so much as just superficially read a few of their mechanics on paper and given up on trying to build one optimally.
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If you're taking a Strength apex item as a Druid, you're effectively committing so hard to Striking that your broader spellcasting suffers as a result. Remember: as a Druid, you still don't get damage boosters like the Barbarian's Rage or the Rogue's Sneak Attack, and a large number of your feats are already being committed towards trying to match up to the base statistics of martial classes, so if you're specializing this hard and still falling significantly behind, as is the case now, then that build path is doomed to disappoint at high level.
Of course, being able to hit with more accuracy than other martials comes with an investment. You only lose 1 DC by going STR over WIS, though.
Or you could go WIS, get the same DC as any caster, and the same accuracy as any martial.
kay, let's humor this and suppose we massively nerf the Druid by making them into a wave caster: what are you giving them in exchange for this? Because simply letting them match martials in attack modifier or even exceed it by +1, something they already do right now at early levels, ain't gonna cut it. Your polymorphed Druid might be able to make accurate Strikes, and that's nice, but your martials' Strikes will still hit harder pound for pound, and that's before factoring in the benefit of their class features, or even just the traits on the weapons they're using. Not only that, but martial classes rarely just Strike, not when their feats let them make Strikes with bonus effects, including action compression, accuracy compression, utility, and other benefits. Attack modifiers are not the be-all and end-all to the power of martial classes, and if that were the case, then giving any caster a 9th-rank heroism spell would be enough for them to outperform a Thaumaturge.
Really, we need to stop assuming in these online discussions that martials are just beat sticks on legs. Martials don't just go into melee and whack enemies with naked Strikes, and while Strikes are a big part of their power, it's not where all of their power comes from. When a caster uses a battle form made for fighting, they do become a beat stick on legs -- they often gain a bit of utility on the side and the Druid certainly has feats to let them do a few more things, but ultimately they'll be making a lot of naked Strikes, and that's where their power will come from while polymorphed. If you want battle form Druids to become wave casters, fine by me, that's what a Shifter could easily end up looking like -- but you can't expect them to just remain beat sticks.
Hmm, I don't know why you go all defensive here, I said myself that martials have other things on the side and even more feats to play with.
As for Wavecasting, they did this with the battle harbringer, so we have a pretty good idea of how a "melee druid" would look like: get wavecasting instead of full spellcasting, get reactive strike and critical specialization for free, get master fortitude, get expert proficiency at 5 and master at 13, and probably a couple features tied to Untamed form.
Of course, being able to hit with more accuracy than other martials comes with an investment. You only lose 1 DC by going STR over WIS, though.
Or you could go WIS, get the same DC as any caster, and the same accuracy as any martial.
You're losing "only" 1 to your spell attacks and DCs to get "only" 1 to your Strikes as a caster. I don't think you can downplay one without doing the same of the other.
Hmm, I don't know why you go all defensive here, I said myself that martials have other things on the side and even more feats to play with.
If that is the case, then you should perhaps acknowledge that in the discussion, instead of turning them into Schrödinger's Class Features where they both simultaneously do and do not exist depending on argumentative convenience. If they do exist, and if they do majorly contribute to those classes' power, then it logically follows that even with comparable or even superior Strike accuracy, the Druid would still fail to match up to the martial power of martial classes. That's not being defensive -- and I don't think it's a very honest argumentative tactic to try to frame the person you disagree with as unreasonably angry -- that's just making sure that we're respecting the common ground we've set in this conversation.
As for Wavecasting, they did this with the battle harbringer, so we have a pretty good idea of how a "melee druid" would look like: get wavecasting instead of full spellcasting, get reactive strike and critical specialization for free, get master fortitude, get expert proficiency at 5 and master at 13, and probably a couple features tied to Untamed form.
So your model for a wave caster Druid is an infamously botched class archetype that severely downgrades their core class feature while failing to function adequately as a martial Striker? No thanks.
You're losing "only" 1 to your spell attacks and DCs to get "only" 1 to your Strikes as a caster. I don't think you can downplay one without doing the same of the other.
That's true, but remember we're comparing him to other martials who actually don't have spells (or are far behind through archetyping). So it's a choice on whether you want to be more precise with spells or melee.
I assume someone who'd want to melee a lot and profit from the +2 boost you're advocating would get the STR apex, but you can go the other way round if you want.
If that is the case, then you should perhaps acknowledge that in the discussion, instead of turning them into Schrödinger's Class Features where they both simultaneously do and do not exist depending on argumentative convenience. If they do exist, and if they do majorly contribute to those classes' power, then it logically follows that even with comparable or even superior Strike accuracy, the Druid would still fail to match up to the martial power of martial classes. That's not being defensive -- and I don't think it's a very honest argumentative tactic to try to frame the person you disagree with as unreasonably angry -- that's just making sure that we're respecting the common ground we've set in this conversation.
Well, saying "I agree that martials have a lot of other goodies on the side (and more feats to play with since an untamed druid had to burn some into upgrades)" seemed pretty straightforward.
I just don't agree with you that those class features, from whatever class they are, are more powerful than being a full caster - and being able to adapt to the situation by flying, burrowing, swimming, AOE breath or insane reach.
So your model for a wave caster Druid is an infamously botched class archetype that severely downgrades their core class feature while failing to function adequately as a martial Striker? No thanks.
It's not my model but Paizo's.
The other option we have is warpriest. Lose legendary spell proficiency to get master proficiency in weapons and fortitude.
That's true, but remember we're comparing him to other martials who actually don't have spells (or are far behind through archetyping). So it's a choice on whether you want to be more precise with spells or melee.
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Well, saying "I agree that martials have a lot of other goodies on the side (and more feats to play with since an untamed druid had to burn some into upgrades)" seemed pretty straightforward.
I just don't agree with you that those class features, from whatever class they are, are more powerful than being a full caster - and being able to adapt to the situation by flying, burrowing, swimming, AOE breath or insane reach.
Being able to adapt to the situation with spells is part of the package of being a full caster, and Paizo seems to have decided that the full package of martial classes is equal to the full package of a full caster -- which includes more than just full casting. I think it therefore stands to reason that a caster who devotes a huge portion of their power towards matching the Strike accuracy of martial classes, all while still dealing less basic Strike damage, still having no extra martial core features, and still lacking in the same feats that enhance their martial power to the same extent, would be able to find their specialization rewarded without eating the lunch of martial classes. This is, by the way, what I'm referring to by Schrödinger's Class Features, and you're glossing over how full casters get extra class features just as well as martials.
It's not my model but Paizo's.
And Paizo's model for that specific class archetype failed. What you are saying is also not the whole truth: long before the Battle Harbinger, Paizo released the Magus and the Summoner, which I'd say are the actual models for what a bounded caster should look like. Not only do they have wave casting and martial proficiencies, they have extremely powerful core class features that tie those two bits of their kit together -- all while also having core class features that the designers straight-up forgot to give the Battle Harbinger, like greater weapon specialization (or, in the Summoner's case, greater eidolon specialization).
So, once again: how would your proposal hold up to those classes? Forget about the janky Cleric class archetype; the Magus gets record-breaking burst damage while the Summoner gets to have four actions and two bodies per turn, all while having a stat spread that lets them leverage both the high Charisma for competent full casting and the high Strength for competent Strikes. How do you propose for what would effectively be a Shifter class archetype to shine at shapeshifting in a manner that is worth stripping the Druid of most of their spell slots and the upper end of their spellcasting proficiency?
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It does seem like wave casters for the three non-arcane traditions could be easily spun into unique classes if Paizo were so inclined to do so. The Battle Harbinger seemed like a "well, making a whole class is a lot of work, what if we do this" experiment.