Kineticist really needs new impulses.

[Fabios]

It's my favorite class but In my opinion kineticist desperately needs new impulses.

The Main weirdness of the class Is that almost no element Is auto-sufficient; every element has INSANE tools but they're very few and can't complete a character on their own:

-Metal can do a bit of everything but not well
(low damage, low tankiness till level 14, the junctions are not that great, specializes againts a SPECIFIC kind of enemy) and this Is a problem in a class that's encouraged to take the best stuff from each element and mix-mash It.

-Water's healing capabilities are very mediocre (with the exception of having the universal vaccine to every disease for some reason with "torrent in the Blood"); It's debuff capabilities are very weak (useless againts single targets, weak againts lots of enemies cause they only have One target) and has decent damage (by kineticist's standard, by "the whole game" standard It's terrible)

-Earth has insane junctions, the best armor, the best composite impulses and One of them best impulses (free Wall of Stone!). But doesn't have any defensive reactions, lacks an aura for some weird reason and really needs wood to fill in the gaps.

-wood relies too much on Timber sentinel, without It the element goes from 4.5/5 to 2.5/5 stars; It has the best junction in the game but no way to use It (heavily lacks in the "good Two action impulses" department)

-Air Is REALLY weird, It has very good impulses but, like water, basically cannot function on It's own: no traditional buff/debuff, no damage, no tankiness, no Will to break, no mind to think, no trailer, no etinoh.

-Fire: suffers from It's own success, gets EVERY tool It needs (Flying flame, area and impulse junctions, Fire wave, blazing wave) in the first five levels and then doesn't get anything till level 12.

I'd like to see more impulses for everyone, especially auras.
Do you think that this Need to mix them Is a bug or a feature?

[magnuskn]

Air is pretty sweet on its own. Yep, no extra tankyness, but it's the only element which attacks Will saves at all. You can substitute healing with your extra movement and Battle Medicine. It has a lot of utility and the damage is decent enough.

But otherwise, yes, absolutely, Kineticist needs new impulses and a rework of how the class mechanics interact with archetypes.

It's overall a bit of a problem of 2E that new material for existing classes is undervalued by the developers in comparison to bringing out yet another new base class (or two) every second hardcover. More class archetypes, please, more new feats and alternative class abilities (like new impulses).

[Ravingdork]

What on Golarion makes you think te class needs to be good at everything? No other class works that way, so why should kineticist?

But yeah, new impulses would be great.

I also disagree that solo element kineticists can't stand on their own. I've played several such characters successfully and had a (elemental) blast.

[Fabios]

Ravingdork wrote:

What on Golarion makes you think te class needs to be good at everything? No other class works that way, so why should kineticist?

But yeah, new impulses would be great.

I also disagree that solo element kineticists can't stand on their own. I've played several such characters successfully and had a (elemental) blast.

More than being good at everything i think that elements should be capable of doing more on their own.

There are some elements that are barely unplayable as a mono element (water and air)

There are elements that are basically One trick ponies (wood)

There are others that can stand on their own but are much, MUCH weaker than they would be if a kineticist Simply took other elements (metal, Fire, earth)

The class STRONGLY encourages mixing elements, and it's cool, but i'd like the chance to be as effective as a mono element kineticist

[magnuskn]

I seriously don't get your take on Air. It's awesome on its own. It's not supposed to be played "alone" anyway, your character is part of a group. Water also is pretty dope.

[moosher12]

As Fabios said. Kineticist feels like it shines best when you're mixing and matching, but when you want to stay within a single element, it can at times feel like you don't have enough interesting options for the amount of slots you have to fill. I don't think it's a problem with the kineticist as a whole, I think it's just a problem with page count. Don't get me wrong, there are a LOT of kineticist abilities to choose from. But it's like having spells. More options is simply better.

As one example, wanting to play a pure air kineticist can be troublesome, especially when you actually only want air. No electricity, just air. And I'm sure folks that want to be pure electricity will encounter the counter-problem that they have to cut the choices almost in half to fulfill the fantasy they are going for. You're rich in options if you're trying to be a storm kineticist, but not so rich when you want to be specifically an aerokineticist or an electrokineticist to the exclusion of the other.

[Easl]

I'd like to see them get more impulses too. Heck not necessarily even combat impulses - some geared towards exploration mode, info collection/scrying, things like that would IMO be cool.

In terms of damage, you should look again. With the exception of the much-discussed 'fire combo', and the two L18 fire impulses, every element has a similar-damage impulse range: 2a, overflow, about 1d8 + 1d8/2 levels, with some sort of AoE, topping out at between 45-55 average damage at L19-20. This IS low compared to casters, because it equates to approximately what you'd get from casting a 'best rank -1' damage spell. Like it or hate it, that's what Paizo has decided is the 'cost' of all-day-blasting: to be 1 rank behind the casters in terms of damage-dealing. On the plus side, this means that (with the exception of the fire combo mentioned above), pretty much any kineticist build you want to explore will be able to blast out the same approximate damage by L4. So you don't need to worry overmuch about finding some damage-dealing easter egg build. With the kineticist, it's much more about "what damage types, spell shapes, ranges etc. do I want to access."

I'd be surprised if someone is still expanding the portal at L13 and 17, unless it's just for pure thematic reasons. By that time you've collected, what, about 11 impulse slots in one element? Sure you'll want to retrain some as higher impulses become available, but I'm guessing in terms of utility you don't really need more than that in any single element.

[Fabios]

Easl wrote:

I'd like to see them get more impulses too. Heck not necessarily even combat impulses - some geared towards exploration mode, info collection/scrying, things like that would IMO be cool.

In terms of damage, you should look again. With the exception of the much-discussed 'fire combo', and the two L18 fire impulses, every element has a similar-damage impulse range: 2a, overflow, about 1d8 + 1d8/2 levels, with some sort of AoE, topping out at between 45-55 average damage at L19-20. This IS low compared to casters, because it equates to approximately what you'd get from casting a 'best rank -1' damage spell. Like it or hate it, that's what Paizo has decided is the 'cost' of all-day-blasting: to be 1 rank behind the casters in terms of damage-dealing. On the plus side, this means that (with the exception of the fire combo mentioned above), pretty much any kineticist build you want to explore will be able to blast out the same approximate damage by L4. So you don't need to worry overmuch about finding some damage-dealing easter egg build. With the kineticist, it's much more about "what damage types, spell shapes, ranges etc. do I want to access."

I'd be surprised if someone is still expanding the portal at L13 and 17, unless it's just for pure thematic reasons. By that time you've collected, what, about 11 impulse slots in one element? Sure you'll want to retrain some as higher impulses become available, but I'm guessing in terms of utility you don't really need more than that in any single element.

-Most people would expand the portal at level 13 to pick up metal ironically, cause its best impulses are all level 12 and above (shattershields, metal form and the 1 milion shards or something like that)

-About damage, those are utterly pityful numbers sadly, you're not doing max level -1 damage but approximately max level -3/4 damage depending on the damage Spike. ALSO, not every element has that kind of damage: wood doesn't, metal gets It super late, earth's costs three actions if i'm not wrong.
Btw, that Is a slow damage progression sadly, It's nice to have "some" damage for sure but the only kineticists that can rely on damage are: early metal, Fire and late metal It's a weird halfway there

[QuidEst]

I would like more impulses, sure. But to say it needs them, or that none of the elements work as mono-element? I disagree.

The elements are somewhat specialized, with some overlap. That means that going mono-element means being somewhat specialized. If you want stuff outside of the specialization, that means leaving the element.

You're also ignoring that mono-element gets access to every composite to round out its options at levels 8+.

If Paizo goes in and adds everything that every element is missing, then the threads are just, "Why is earth's healing so weak, and air's single-target debuff option weaker than metal's multi-target debuff option? If you go mono-element, you can't get the best stuff."

I think want more options that lean into the specializations. Give me even more options for water battlefield control, give me more air tricks that don't fit into traditional buff/debuff boxes, give me more wood hitpoint support, give me more earth tankiness, give me more fire damage, give me- okay, for metal, I mostly want an impulse that can make an enemy count as wearing metal armor.

Or, the class could get some additional fun general feats. That's a way to improve the options that mono-element gets without just increasing the menu that multi-element can cherry-pick from.

[Teridax]

While I'm fully in support of more Kineticist impulses, and even in fact brand-new elements, I question how much those impulses would need to round out existing elements. If mono-element builds are so constrained that they're a lot weaker than multi-element builds in spite of the extra junctions they get, then sure, but I don't know if that's really the case now.

I'd also say that if current elements are meant to be good at something, but aren't, then that is a separate issue from them needing more things to do. If water is meant to be really good at healing and lacks good healing, for instance, then the solution oughtn't to be to make its current healing options obsolete with better impulses or let water do a bit of everything, but to buff the weak impulses accordingly so that a dedicated water Kineticist can be an excellent healer (and terrain controller). I do think each element offers enough to let a character specialize into a niche that is worthwhile in and of itself, so if that specialization isn't being rewarded enough, I'd like that addressed first before more stuff is layered on top.

[Finoan]

Fabios wrote:

The class STRONGLY encourages mixing elements,

It also strongly encourages being part of a team instead of an edgelord main character. And I think that is the point. Just like it is for every other class in print.

Yes, I fully expect that new books will have new Impulse options. But they are likely to stay on theme for the element rather than rounding out so any element - or every element - is 'auto-sufficient'.

[Fabios]

Teridax wrote:

While I'm fully in support of more Kineticist impulses, and even in fact brand-new elements, I question how much those impulses would need to round out existing elements. If mono-element builds are so constrained that they're a lot weaker than multi-element builds in spite of the extra junctions they get, then sure, but I don't know if that's really the case now.

I'd also say that if current elements are meant to be good at something, but aren't, then that is a separate issue from them needing more things to do. If water is meant to be really good at healing and lacks good healing, for instance, then the solution oughtn't to be to make its current healing options obsolete with better impulses or let water do a bit of everything, but to buff the weak impulses accordingly so that a dedicated water Kineticist can be an excellent healer (and terrain controller). I do think each element offers enough to let a character specialize into a niche that is worthwhile in and of itself, so if that specialization isn't being rewarded enough, I'd like that addressed first before more stuff is layered on top.

I fully agree with both of you! In fact i wouldn't want for elements to be samey, but i'd like for them to be able to stand on their own.

Water Is not able to stand on It's own NOT because It needs an armor, but because it's niches (healing and control) are not strong enough to carry It. I mean, honestly, It's barely a healer :/

-lay on hands but worse ONCE
-three action heal once but worse ONCE
-small heal when you critically fail a save

It Just doesn't cut It, if It could spam It or have more powerfull options THEN It could stand on it's own

[Teridax]

I'd say a key advantage Ocean's Balm has over lay on hands is that whereas the latter is a focus spell that costs a Focus Point a pop, Ocean's Balm is an at-will action you could apply to your entire party, including yourself. Each target gets locked out of the healing for ten minutes, but that's also ten minutes the Champion would need to recover a single Focus Point, so it's tricky to make that impulse stronger for spot healing in combat without also making it just blow all other sources of healing out of the water out of combat. I'd quite like to see them get stronger healing still, but I'm not sure how to go about that with those balance considerations in mind. The alternative could be temporary Hit Points, but Pathfinder treats those with extreme caution for whichever reason.

[ottdmk]

I gotta say, looking at a mono Water build... I think there's a lot of potential there. They've got some neat stuff! Throw in some appropriate Class Feats (I see real potential in a Safe Elements/Winter Sleet combo) and yeah, I'm pretty sure you'd have a solid build.

[Kelseus]

Truthfully, even with a single element Kineticist, I often find that there are two or three impulses per level that I want to take, not including the general Kineticist feats. The class is already really strong.

[Ascalaphus]

I feel there's a lot of cool conceptual effects kineticists could be doing that don't have impulses yet.

As someone who enjoys hay fever a significant part of the year, I was looking for an air/wood composite pollen blast for example.

I don't think we're crippled and absolute need impulses, but there's a lot of cool design space still available.

[exequiel759]

Air is probably the element that functions on its own the best besides probably fire. I'm playing a solo air kineticist and from 1st to 6th level it has been a blast. Certainly the damage isn't the best, but being allowed to move each time I do a 2A impulse has made me effectively invincible. Plus, Four Winds is probably the best reposition tool in the game (there's also a playtest commander in my group, so the amount of free movement the party gets its insane). There's also Whisper on the Wind for long-ranged communication, Clear as Air for infinite invisibility, and in a few levels Cyclonic Ascent for infinite flying and Desert Wind (through Elemental Overlap) to fix the damage problem.

I would like more impulses though, but more importantly, more elements. Aether and void have been mentioned in Rage of Elements already and are probably the only two elements I could see making an apparition later down the line in this edition, specially with the SF2e compatibility.

[Zoken44]

Hmm... so an idea for that Water impulse mentioned. a new water impulse, high level, called "Wash the past Away" 2 action single target, or three action overflow 30 burst.

any target who is currently temporarily immune to an effect (such as immune for 10 minutes, or immune for one day) loses that immunity. once a target is effected by this they are immune to it for one day.

[ornathopter]

Yeah, for the most part I'm satisfied with the impulses available now (and I'm not sure why OP said earth has no defensive reactions when calcifying sand is there - sure, it's only one, but it's there and pretty good.) We've already gotten Wood impulses from Wardens of Wildwood though, so I expect we'll get more here and there as time goes on. I also think it'd be fun if we could get some kinetecist or element specific armor or shields or other gear options in a Treasure Vault 2.

[Fabios]

ornathopter wrote:

Yeah, for the most part I'm satisfied with the impulses available now (and I'm not sure why OP said earth has no defensive reactions when calcifying sand is there - sure, it's only one, but it's there and pretty good.) We've already gotten Wood impulses from Wardens of Wildwood though, so I expect we'll get more here and there as time goes on. I also think it'd be fun if we could get some kinetecist or element specific armor or shields or other gear options in a Treasure Vault 2.

To be honest calcifying Sand Is so bad i don't even consider It.

"Ohh, you can... Close your aura and block once per fight... Yay"

[Squiggit]

More impulses would be great, but I have to echo that it doesn't feel nearly as dire as the OP makes it out to be.

I'd also ascribe some of the most egregious gaps more to individual impulse balance being off than any broader failures, and addressing those is just as if not more important imo than new content.

Fabios wrote:

There are others that can stand on their own but are much, MUCH weaker than they would be if a kineticist Simply took other elements (metal, Fire, earth)

TBH I just recently talked my GM into letting me respec out of dual element on my geokineticist because I wasn't getting enough from a second element and being able to pick up multiple composites just felt so much better.

Other than that I think the bigger gap for me has been from Elemental Blast feeling a bit under, since that's a go-to single target option, rather than just the element sucking.

[Kelseus]

I would like to see more composite impulses. There are only 15 total and no higher then level 6.

If I have a dual element Kineticis, I want to be able to take 1/2 of my impulses as composites.

Give me a level 12+ composite with three elements!

[Easl]

Fabios wrote:

ALSO, not every element has that kind of damage: wood doesn't, metal gets It super late, earth's costs three actions if i'm not wrong.

You're wrong.

Hail of Splinters (wood): L1 2d4 -> L19 20d4, ave 50.
Magnetic Pinions (metal): L1 2d4 -> L19 20d4, ave 50
Retch Rust (metal): L8 4d10 -> L20 10d10, ave 55
Tremor (stone): L1 1d8 -> L19 10d8, ave 45

How about the 3a impulses?
Hell of Needles (metal) gets to 59.5 average,
Shattered Mountain (stone) gets to 55

How about the other elements?
Air's 2a overflow is Lightning Dash. It gets to 7d12, ave 45.5 at L19
Fire's Blazing wave tops out at 12d6 or 12d8 with the junction, ave 42 or 55.
Water's Tidal hands tops out at 45; the harder to use call the hurricane gets to 54.

Except for Fire's All Shall End in Flames - which is a total beast - all the elements 2a overflow damage blasts - and in fact most of the 3a overflows, too - top out between 45-55 points of damage at their highest boost.

The biggest differences are in AoE shape, damage types, and other 'special' attributes. This makes them all unique and definitely makes some better than others for specific circumstances. So for example, Metal's Pinion damage is immediate and easy to target, versus Wood's Splinters being a cone with half being bleed. Is one objectively better? Well if you want immediate down, of 3 or less enemies, Metal's got that. If you've got a nice cone-shaped group of lots of enemies, or you think bleed over 2+ rounds is going to be really helpful, that's Wood's forte. We play in Foundry where you have a rough idea of how injured an opponent is. I've seen Splinters being used as a 'fire and forget' weapon, where after the first bleed tick it becomes obvious that the enemy will likely die on the second tick, so the party tactically moves on to other targets. That can be valuable.

Quote:

the only kineticists that can rely on damage are: early metal, Fire and late metal It's a weird halfway there

I disagree. Air's the slowest to get it's 2a overflow and it's d12 L+3 progression is not as smooth so there will be some levels when it's behind (it's 'make up bonus' is that it also moves the kineticist out of melee range in a way immune to reactive strike), but they can all do roughly similar damage numbers.

[Dubious Scholar]

I think, as is...

Water, Fire, and Wood all have a lot of appealing options across the board.

Metal and Earth feel very lackluster at low levels. Metal armor's crit-shattering is frankly a bad idea. A big part of the issue for both elements is having bad level 4 impulses, though Metal feels worse off than Earth (with its level 1 options being the worst armor, two damage impulses, and then the questionable toolmaking impulse, and having less appealing 6/8 impulses than earth too).

Air feels like it needs a little help too (the level 1 impulse spread is unappealing, but boomerang+four winds is at least a useful pair to take, it's just... that's the only pair you'd take?). Level 4 is only really Lightning Dash, but at 6+ it opens up. So overall it's a bit ahead of Earth (though... Earth does have the option of a strength build going full kinetic melee under heavy armor, even if their impulses are less appealing).

Going 2+ elements cleans up a lot of the issues for the less appealing elements... as long as you don't try to include Metal, since it's the most lacking in early utility options.

[Fabios]

Easl wrote:

Fabios wrote:

ALSO, not every element has that kind of damage: wood doesn't, metal gets It super late, earth's costs three actions if i'm not wrong.

You're wrong.

Hail of Splinters (wood): L1 2d4 -> L19 20d4, ave 50.
Magnetic Pinions (metal): L1 2d4 -> L19 20d4, ave 50
Retch Rust (metal): L8 4d10 -> L20 10d10, ave 55
Tremor (stone): L1 1d8 -> L19 10d8, ave 45

How about the 3a impulses?
Hell of Needles (metal) gets to 59.5 average,
Shattered Mountain (stone) gets to 55

How about the other elements?
Air's 2a overflow is Lightning Dash. It gets to 7d12, ave 45.5 at L19
Fire's Blazing wave tops out at 12d6 or 12d8 with the junction, ave 42 or 55.
Water's Tidal hands tops out at 45; the harder to use call the hurricane gets to 54.

Except for Fire's All Shall End in Flames - which is a total beast - all the elements 2a overflow damage blasts - and in fact most of the 3a overflows, too - top out between 45-55 points of damage at their highest boost.

The biggest differences are in AoE shape, damage types, and other 'special' attributes. This makes them all unique and definitely makes some better than others for specific circumstances. So for example, Metal's Pinion damage is immediate and easy to target, versus Wood's Splinters being a cone with half being bleed. Is one objectively better? Well if you want immediate down, of 3 or less enemies, Metal's got that. If you've got a nice cone-shaped group of lots of enemies, or you think bleed over 2+ rounds is going to be really helpful, that's Wood's forte.

Quote:

the only kineticists that can rely on damage are: early metal, Fire and late metal It's a weird halfway there

I disagree. Air's the slowest to get it's 2a overflow and it's d12 L+3 progression is not as smooth so there will be some levels when it's behind (it's 'make up bonus' is that it also moves the kineticist out of melee range in a way immune to reactive strike), but they can all do roughly similar damage numbers.

Hail of splinters'es damage comes from persistent bleed, very strong but easily resisted.

Magnetic peons targets AC, this makes It very weak in the Grand scheme of things (also, i did specify that early game metal and late game metal had decent damage).
Air's Is basically a suicide bomb cause you end up in the middle and you're ignoring that a Fire kineticist Main damage source Is not It's impulse damage dices but the weakness coupled with thermal Nimbus.
By using the best Fire rotation (which doesn't include all shall end in flame cause it's kinda crap, blazing wave and lava leap are much Better) almost HALF your Total damage comes from flat sources (weakness, thermal Nimbus and the persistent damage you get from flame Oracle archetype).

Also, you should aknowledge that doing 50 points of damage ON A FAIL at level 20 Is worthless most of the time, you're barely poking at their hp bars without also giving them debuffs (which Is fundamental to High level play, if you're not a magus It's a game of debuffs where hitpoints are almost a formality)

[Easl]

ottdmk wrote:

I gotta say, looking at a mono Water build... I think there's a lot of potential there. They've got some neat stuff! Throw in some appropriate Class Feats (I see real potential in a Safe Elements/Winter Sleet combo) and yeah, I'm pretty sure you'd have a solid build.

Winter Sleet, Torrent in the Blood (to exclude enemies), and then Call the Hurricane. IMO, arguably, Water is the element that gets the best value from Safe Elements.

[Easl]

Fabios wrote:

Air's Is basically a suicide bomb cause you end up in the middle

It also brings you out of the middle. Or takes you from one side of the encounter to the other. But I'd agree that air impulse junction's ability makes it better: go through, then reposition. Or do it in the other order to "Get set up for your attack run" :), so that you don't have to end up right next to your chosen target.

Quote:

and you're ignoring that a Fire kineticist Main damage source Is not It's impulse damage dices but the weakness coupled with thermal Nimbus.

By using the best Fire rotation (which doesn't include all shall end in flame cause it's kinda crap, blazing wave and lava leap are much Better) almost HALF your Total damage comes from flat sources (weakness, thermal Nimbus and the persistent damage you get from flame Oracle archetype).

I'm not ignoring it. I think I said twice if not three times that the fire combo is ahead of other kineticist builds in terms of damage. But still, that requires enemies to be in your aura, so if you're counting 'in the middle' as a detraction from air kineticist, in fairness that criticism would apply to a fire kineticist using Aura Junction + Thermal Nimbus to boost their dpr too.

[Perpdepog]

QuidEst wrote:

...give me- okay, for metal, I mostly want an impulse that can make an enemy count as wearing metal armor.

This gave me a mental image of an impulse that literally wraps a creature in metal, similar to Metal Carapace, and now I want that to be a thing.

It could grant small AC bonuses to teammates, or a small amount of resistance against an attack, or on the flipside it could hinder an enemy's speed, or cause them a penalty like making them Clumsy or Enfeebled while trapped in the armor. And, of course, it'd make whoever you use it on, in whatever form it takes, count as wearing metal armor.

[Teridax]

Perpdepog wrote:

This gave me a mental image of an impulse that literally wraps a creature in metal, similar to Metal Carapace, and now I want that to be a thing.

There's this one particular moment in the Legend of Korra that reminds me of exactly this, and that to me is reason enough to include this kind of impulse. Wrapping a creature in metal to physically trap them and render them vulnerable to metal-exploiting weaknesses I think would make sense on the metal element, and would address its major problem of having very situational synergies: if you're fighting an enemy with metal armor or the metal trait already, great, but if not, you'd have the option to spend a few more actions turning on that synergy, which in the case of some adventures may let metal Kineticists exploit those synergies for the first time at all.

[Fabios]

Easl wrote:

[

I'm not ignoring it. I think I said twice if not three times that the fire combo is ahead of other kineticist builds in terms of damage. But still, that requires enemies to be in your aura, so if you're counting 'in the middle' as a detraction from air kineticist, in fairness that criticism would apply to a fire kineticist using Aura Junction + Thermal Nimbus to boost their dpr too.

I'd Say that there's a difference in the sense that a Fire kineticist HAS to Plan a way to get in melee to do that combo, so it's not really a weakness since Fire IS a melee element all things considered.

Air, meanwhile, really Isn't as most if not all of It's utility and damage Better works in a ranged enviroment.

Also, i brought up the Fire combo because kineticist damage doesn't work in a vacuum, but i want to consider It in the context of the game.

Non Fire damage is normal while Fire combo damage Is absurd in the context of the class

Non Fire damage Is low/very Low while Fire combo damage Is High/top tier in the context of pf2e as a whole

[Castilliano]

Perpdepog wrote:

QuidEst wrote:

...give me- okay, for metal, I mostly want an impulse that can make an enemy count as wearing metal armor.

This gave me a mental image of an impulse that literally wraps a creature in metal, similar to Metal Carapace, and now I want that to be a thing.

It could grant small AC bonuses to teammates, or a small amount of resistance against an attack, or on the flipside it could hinder an enemy's speed, or cause them a penalty like making them Clumsy or Enfeebled while trapped in the armor. And, of course, it'd make whoever you use it on, in whatever form it takes, count as wearing metal armor.

Or maybe an iron maiden, damage + wearing metal/Immobilized until they Escape, maybe with Persistent or recurring damage. Or maybe transform a body part into inanimate metal.

Back to the OP: I've been reviewing Kineticist a lot the past couple of days and I'm sensing choice paralysis/"paradox of choice" seeping in, so I'm unsure I'd like more option. Some may need tuning, but I disagree with most every premise in the OP re: functionality, breadth, & roles one should be able to achieve with one element. It's amazing what we can achieve with a single class much less each (unnecessarily separated) subset of it.

More elements/themes would be great, that would unleash a slue of Compositions mono-element K's could acquire. Maybe even add Class Archetypes, like for blood or Cha-based. Not that I'll ever finish with the current options blended with other Archetypes. :-)

[Zoken44]

I really don't get why "Kineticists should get more impulses" is a hot take.

I mean do we object every time a new spell is added to the game?

I would love to see more non-combat impulses. Things to help with exploration or roleplay or down time. Like maybe introduce a subset of impulses that either have alternate effects if done as part of down time, or only work during down time, things like summoning useable/valuable amounts of ore (letting you role your Impulse attack as for an earn income check) or revitalize natural places, or grant protection from undeath by cremating in sacred fire, purifying tainted water sources.

[Perpdepog]

Zoken44 wrote:

I really don't get why "Kineticists should get more impulses" is a hot take.

I mean do we object every time a new spell is added to the game?

I would love to see more non-combat impulses. Things to help with exploration or roleplay or down time. Like maybe introduce a subset of impulses that either have alternate effects if done as part of down time, or only work during down time, things like summoning useable/valuable amounts of ore (letting you role your Impulse attack as for an earn income check) or revitalize natural places, or grant protection from undeath by cremating in sacred fire, purifying tainted water sources.

It's not. It's also not the part of the thread people are responding to. Everybody seems in agreement that more impulses, as a general idea, is both cool and good. The argument isn't just that kineticist needs more impulses, however, but that going mono-element is bad, and there need to be impulses that broaden each element so they can be more of an all-rounder. I'm also seeing discussion surrounding damage output as well.

[25speedforseaweedleshy]

Zoken44 wrote:

I really don't get why "Kineticists should get more impulses" is a hot take.

I mean do we object every time a new spell is added to the game?

I would love to see more non-combat impulses. Things to help with exploration or roleplay or down time. Like maybe introduce a subset of impulses that either have alternate effects if done as part of down time, or only work during down time, things like summoning useable/valuable amounts of ore (letting you role your Impulse attack as for an earn income check) or revitalize natural places, or grant protection from undeath by cremating in sacred fire, purifying tainted water sources.

not hot take it just doesn't solve any problem

kineticist are the most insane feat starve class despite have more bonus feat than any other class

problem is their design

kineticist should have 5 to 15 impulse slot like spell slot instead of each impulse cost 1 feat

[ornathopter]

I'm eternally glad kinetecists don't have slots, the 'you have a bag of tricks you can use anytime anywhere resource-free, using one doesn't mean you can't use another later' thing is a major reason why I like them and I hope we get future classes along the same lines. I hate spell slot management and kinetecist lacking that is nothing but upside for me, and let me actually get to play at least some of my class fantasies.

[Finoan]

25speedforseaweedleshy wrote:

kineticist are the most insane feat starve class despite have more bonus feat than any other class

problem is their design

kineticist should have 5 to 15 impulse slot like spell slot instead of each impulse cost 1 feat

Rephrasing: Your problem with Kineticist is the design.

The phrasing difference is that the Kineticist design is not inherently bad. You just don't like it.

It feels feat starved if and because you want to have all of the things. The same is said of Summoner too.

It's honestly a good problem to have. Much better than the other side of the coin - such as Wizard where people are saying that its feat choices are so lackluster that the class is ideal for archetyping with.

[Easl]

Castilliano wrote:

Or maybe an iron maiden, damage + wearing metal/Immobilized until they Escape, maybe with Persistent or recurring damage. Or maybe transform a body part into inanimate metal.

Hell of a Thousand Needles is kinda like that, but it's too late to be a build staple. Maybe they need a 'junior' version with the same concept. Iron Maiden is a really evocative name!

Quote:

Maybe even add Class Archetypes, like for blood or Cha-based. Not that I'll ever finish with the current options blended with other Archetypes. :-)

yeah in other posts the idea of expanding the kineticist to more themes has come up. So many planes to open gates from! It's definitely a cool idea, to expand on the current 6 options chassis

[Gaulin]

Personally I think more impulses would be nice, of course. But I also agree with the sentiment that mono element is a lot worse than combining elements. Being able to nearly double your options (I know going multi element blocks you off from being able to get any composite but it's still a net gain by a lot) alone is huge.

For example, my personal bugbear is mono earth. I love earth element stuff, always have. But earth is pretty mediocre by itself in areas that I personally would prefer they were stronger. Earth is great at creating terrain and controlling movement, but not as good as I would like at personal defense and damage. I can't stand tremor, both mechanically and immersively. Only hitting things on the ground is dumb, especially when earth only gets 3 damaging impulses and one is a 3 action with a good but niche effect and not especially competitive damage, the other damage impulse is level 18. Also how do you picture shaking the ground doing a ton of damage at level 20? What does it look like, what if they're on a wooden bridge? It's just sillyness, always hated tremor like abilities in any fantasy setting.

All that said, to fix those issues I personally feel that we should get impulses that are exclusively mono element. The feats that are mono element only aren't very good (thematic but not very strong). And if we just give feats to every element with no restrictions, it will just make dipping into other elements even more attractive.

[exequiel759]

The only real way I could see the kineticist being feat starved is for an Avatar-like build where you take as many elements as you can. For single or two elements, I feel you have the perfect amount of feats if not a bit too much for certain combinations.

[Deriven Firelion]

The kineticist is action starved, not feat starved. I find the kineticist has a few high value abilities you use a lot, mostly because you don't have the actions to do much else.

Overflow often costs 3 to 4 actions to use. 2 or 3 actions to use the ability, then 1 action to reactivate your kinetic gate which gives you an aura or a blast. Usually you activate an aura given how pathetically weak the single action blasts are, not even keeping up with a well built weapon damage.

Some kineticist abilities are really nice and some are terrible. This is much like spells.

I'm not real sure what you would do with more impulses. I wouldn't mind a few better options for certain elements, but I find I often have too many impulses and too few actions to use them.

I want to use my most impactful options or your abilities are pretty weak. If they made new impulses, I'd want to see the impact.

Mostly I'd like some clean up on the kineticist for more consistent die rolls. It's not fun to add an extra d10 to an earth blast when it uses d8s. You want the die size consistent across abilities. It looks like some elements maybe planned to use a d10 like earth, but ended up with d8s and that outlier ability that adds a d10 to earth blasts seems odd.

I'd like some of the impulses that exist to be polished up and rebalanced to make them more usable. Why add more impulses when you have some conceptually very nice ones that if you polish them up, could be very competitive.

I'd rather get more feedback from kineticist players on what impulses to polish up and what odd abilities don't match the ability they're enhancing. Smooth the kineticist over and improve some of the weak impulses. Adding impulses when you have a bunch of weak ones would make for a big impulse list of wasted page space on useless abilities like happens with useless spells.

The kineticist should be a very tight class with a smaller number of very useful abilities so that page space is well spent and not superfluous.

[Ryangwy]

I think printing more dual-element impulses will do more for mono-element (at higher levels, sure, but that's intentional) than printing mono-element that 'fills the gap', since the later makes two elements even better since any combination of two elements is increasingly likely to be able to do anything while the former specifically strengthens mono elements so long as the dual-element impulses only do things their parts can do.

[Easl]

Deriven Firelion wrote:

Mostly I'd like some clean up on the kineticist for more consistent die rolls. It's not fun to add an extra d10 to an earth blast when it uses d8s. You want the die size consistent across abilities.

This was errata'd. Tremor, I think it was? Its d8s across the board now.

Quote:

I'd like some of the impulses that exist to be polished up and rebalanced to make them more usable.

I'd bet money that the one thing we won't see is an update to impulses that have them do more damage. Damage is too consistent for it to be unintentional; like it or not, they are where Paizo wants them to be. Though I would happily be shown wrong. Same thing with new impulses in future books: will there be some? Yes almost certainly. Will they do more damage than the current set? My guess is: no almost certainly not.

[Deriven Firelion]

Easl wrote:

Deriven Firelion wrote:

Mostly I'd like some clean up on the kineticist for more consistent die rolls. It's not fun to add an extra d10 to an earth blast when it uses d8s. You want the die size consistent across abilities.

This was errata'd. Tremor, I think it was? Its d8s across the board now.

Quote:

I'd like some of the impulses that exist to be polished up and rebalanced to make them more usable.

I'd bet money that the one thing we won't see is an update to impulses that have them do more damage. Damage is too consistent for it to be unintentional; like it or not, they are where Paizo wants them to be. Though I would happily be shown wrong. Same thing with new impulses in future books: will there be some? Yes almost certainly. Will they do more damage than the current set? My guess is: no almost certainly not.

I don't need more damage.

I'm talking stuff like making sure it is clear the Incap trait on solar detonation only applies to the blinding effect, not the entire impulse which just put in the incap trait on the whole spell.

Make the fascination condition better or more clear so that Wiles on the Wind is something you might want to use.

Make Infinite Expanse of The Blue Heaven a lot more usable. The way it reads, it seems mostly useless. Level 18 impulses should be highly useful and do something clearly amazing.

A pass over to clean up existing impulses and make them more usable and interesting before adding a bunch of others to sift for any good ones.

[Gaulin]

I don't think there are too many impulses that need balancing. I think timber sentinel should probably have a 10 minute cool down, jagged berms should probably have a 1/turn damage clause, maybe metal carapace breaking changed, but imo most others have their niche.

[Finoan]

Deriven Firelion wrote:

I'm talking stuff like making sure it is clear the Incap trait on solar detonation only applies to the blinding effect, not the entire impulse which just put in the incap trait on the whole spell.

Fair.

Deriven Firelion wrote:

Make the fascination condition better or more clear so that Wiles on the Wind is something you might want to use.

Fair.

Deriven Firelion wrote:

Make Infinite Expanse of The Blue Heaven a lot more usable. The way it reads, it seems mostly useless. Level 18 impulses should be highly useful and do something clearly amazing.

??

On a successful save, the target is off-guard until they leave the area. So they either have to just accept the AC reduction or spend actions moving.

On a failed save, they get the Fleeing condition. They can't attack any more. They have to Stride or otherwise move to leave the area ... except that they have to pass a 50% flat check to do that. They will end up wasting at least one action moving randomly to a likely less-than-ideal location and can waste an unbounded number of actions (probably no more than 4 or 5) trying and failing to leave the effect.

And people think the spell Slow is good...

The only problem that I see with it is that since it costs 3 actions, you can't combine it with Pacifying Infusion to exclude your allies from the effect.

Though it would probably be borderline OP if you could combine it with Pacifying Infusion. You could have your Reach weapon fighter (or other characters with good movement based reactions) in the area while all the enemies proc RS.

Some other team tactics that do still work are:
* Have your Rogue Sneak Attack them repeatedly while they are all off-guard.
* Have someone with a big AoE like a burst or 30 foot cone cover the area in damage. Preferably repeatedly with something like a sustained duration spell while they run around like headless chickens in there.

I do also have to question at least the phrasing on this:

Deriven Firelion wrote:

The kineticist should be a very tight class with a smaller number of very useful abilities so that page space is well spent and not superfluous.

Which of the many various gaming styles should be supported by the very tight Kineticist class with non-superfluous page count?

Yours, of course? To the detriment of anyone who plays the game differently than you?

[Fabios]

Finoan wrote:

Deriven Firelion wrote:

I'm talking stuff like making sure it is clear the Incap trait on solar detonation only applies to the blinding effect, not the entire impulse which just put in the incap trait on the whole spell.

Fair.

Deriven Firelion wrote:

Make the fascination condition better or more clear so that Wiles on the Wind is something you might want to use.

Fair.

Deriven Firelion wrote:

Make Infinite Expanse of The Blue Heaven a lot more usable. The way it reads, it seems mostly useless. Level 18 impulses should be highly useful and do something clearly amazing.

??

On a successful save, the target is off-guard until they leave the area. So they either have to just accept the AC reduction or spend actions moving.

On a failed save, they get the Fleeing condition. They can't attack any more. They have to Stride or otherwise move to leave the area ... except that they have to pass a 50% flat check to do that. They will end up wasting at least one action moving randomly to a likely less-than-ideal location and can waste an unbounded number of actions (probably no more than 4 or 5) trying and failing to leave the effect.

And people think the spell Slow is good...

The only problem that I see with it is that since it costs 3 actions, you can't combine it with Pacifying Infusion to exclude your allies from the effect.

Though it would probably be borderline OP if you could combine it with Pacifying Infusion. You could have your Reach weapon fighter (or other characters with good movement based reactions) in the area while all the enemies proc RS.

Some other team tactics that do still work are:
* Have your Rogue Sneak Attack them repeatedly while they are all off-guard.
* Have someone with a big AoE like a burst or 30 foot cone cover the area in damage. Preferably repeatedly with something like a sustained duration spell while they run around like headless chickens in there.

I do also have to question at least the phrasing on this:...

The problem of infinite expanse of the Blue Heaven Is that it doesn't do anything usefull on a success (no, making Someone off guard at level 18 it's not usefull, on a success casters can send a boss back to pathfinder First edition while kineticist HAS to Hope they fail a rigged throw)

[Squiggit]

Gaulin wrote:

I don't think there are too many impulses that need balancing. I think timber sentinel should probably have a 10 minute cool down, jagged berms should probably have a 1/turn damage clause, maybe metal carapace breaking changed, but imo most others have their niche.

I really dislike flash forge. Level 0 only. Common only (no access clause). Adventuring gear only. Extra 'GM feel free to disallow' clause. Ten minute duration. Random chance to break after every use. Never scales.

There's just so many restrictions on what's already a pretty limited use case. You can't even really do many cute flavorful things with it because the item blows up after ten minutes regardless.

And it's supposed to compete against your core early game damage options?

there are a handful of other feats I think are underbaked but flash forge feels really emblematic of hypercautious design.

[Deriven Firelion]

Finoan wrote:

On a successful save, the target is off-guard until they leave the area. So they either have to just accept the AC reduction or spend actions moving.

On a failed save, they get the Fleeing condition. They can't attack any more. They have to Stride or otherwise move to leave the area ... except that they have to pass a 50% flat check to do that. They will end up wasting at least one action moving randomly to a likely less-than-ideal location and can waste an unbounded number of actions (probably no more than 4 or 5) trying and failing to leave the effect.

And people think the spell Slow is good...

The only problem that I see with it is that since it costs 3 actions, you can't combine it with Pacifying Infusion to exclude your allies from the effect.

Though it would probably be borderline OP if you could combine it with Pacifying Infusion. You could have your Reach weapon fighter (or other characters with good movement based reactions) in the area while all the enemies proc RS.

Some other team tactics that do still work are:
* Have your Rogue Sneak Attack them repeatedly while they are all off-guard.
* Have someone with a big AoE like a burst or 30 foot cone cover the area in damage. Preferably repeatedly with something like a sustained duration spell while they run around like headless chickens in there.

This is a level 18 ability.

Off-guard by that level is something easy to obtain. It doesn't stack.

Fleeing? Really? No reduced saves, you have to use move actions to get to the target, it gets a flat check to resist this ability. It's a level 18 ability. It should be more impactful.

A level 3 fear could do the same and people don't use that at high level because fleeing is not a good condition, especially fleeing without frightened debuff reducing AC, saves, and the like.

For a level 18 ability this is not great. It is not better than slow. It is not very useful for a level 18 ability.

I'm not sure why anyone would think it was good at level 18.

Quote:

Which of the many various gaming styles should be supported by the very tight Kineticist class with non-superfluous page count?

Yours, of course? To the detriment of anyone who plays the game differently than you?

This has nothing to do with gaming styles.

I have played now 3 kineticists. Two to level 15 plus and am starting another one.

Kineticist has a very locked in playstyle with action hog abilities. You can only use so many impulses at a time.

Generally you're activating a stance and staying in it.

Then using an overflow ability as often as possible.

They fortunately made sustaining an impulse easily with a level 12 feat.

Then you're working in other blasts and abilities as needed with some upgrades proving inferior to the original form like fiery body one where you get a free move with the free sustain and it becomes a regular move once you get fiery body for a minute duration.

You don't need a whole lot of impulses. You need to know how to utilize the tight number you have in an effective way. If you pile on more impulses, you'll end up with a lot of useless impulses on your character sheet being unused.

With fights being in the 3 to 5 round range, you can only use so many impulses in that time period. Stacking a bunch of impulses on a character sheet that won't be used isn't the greatest.

You need your kinetic aura active for everything, which often counts as encounter mode since it requires an action.

I guess you could add in some more utility impulses usable outside of encounter mode that might prove useful. Stacking on more combat impulses would lead to a bunch of extra stuff that doesn't get used.

Then with eventual Reflow Elements, you can change impulses as needed as it is. So you don't need more on the character. You can add some and they can Reflow into them as needed.

[Agonarchy]

I don't think kin *needs* anything new. For single-element kins there are a non-impulse options to consider which are harder to afford on a mixed build but which are worth exploring to expand on the element.

I would love to see more impulses, but would also love to see other feats that go into different directions, like meta feats that allow for building more complex structures with igneogenesis, expanding weapon infusion options, or removing some of the limitations on extended kinesis.

[Easl]

Deriven Firelion wrote:

Generally you're activating a stance and staying in it.

Then using an overflow ability as often as possible.

They fortunately made sustaining an impulse easily with a level 12 feat.

Then you're working in other blasts and abilities as needed with some upgrades proving inferior to the original form like fiery body one where you get a free move with the free sustain and it becomes a regular move once you get fiery body for a minute duration.

You don't need a whole lot of impulses.

I...kinda agree.

I think it's pretty easy for a player to come up with a combat rotation of just a few impulses, if that's the style they like to play. I don't think everyone likes to do that, Deriven, so maybe some additional direct damage impulses will appeal to folks who like to change it up more regularly. Outside of that, a wider range of combat impulses will mostly just support circumstantial uses. Some more composite impulses would be cool just thematically, but they aren't needed to make a combat-effective kineticist.

It's why in my first post I advocated for more utility impulses. I think direct damage is already pretty well covered by what's in RoE. Throw in more battlefield control, terrain, exploration, investigation, intrigue, hazard-addressing etc. related impulses. Once you've got 2-4 2a d8+d8 AoE blasts with various secondary effects, you don't really need #s 5-8.

I'll also agree with a previous poster's ask for more kin related magical items. Give'em something to spend their money on. :)