One thing I would say you have to weigh on each turn/enemy your attacking is whether you should use the 2 action or single action blast.
You have versatility of choice, and shouldn't always be using one or the other.
Sure, the 2 action version is going to give you somewhere in the neighborhood of +3 3to +6 damage, but at the opportunity cost of using a second action.
However the cost for using 2 single action blasts is the penalty to accuracy on the second hit and the comparatively less damage.
And as you level up, the bonus damage from 2 action Con actually becomes less relevant as your base damage dice scale.
So if you're fighting an enemy that is easy to hit, you might want to use 2 single action blasts. If both hit, you will deal more damage. Conversely against enemies with higher AC the 2 action version gets you a little more damage on your single higher attack bonus attack. Martials don't have that option for versatility.
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It feels like you are cherry picking.
My 2 action Earth Kinetic Blast with Weapon Infusion does 2d8+2+4 at +12 to hit with a range of 50 feet. Where as any Dex based Martial switching to a secondary weapon Composite Longbow does 2d8+2 at +14 with a range of 100 feet. For 1 action!
First, you are looking specifically at level 5, where martials just got a weapon proficiency boost while spellcaster's don't get their spellcasting proficiency boost until level 7. That is why the difference between +12 and +14 in attack bonus.
And then looking at choice of comparison. You picked the absolute best in class long-ranged ranged weapon to compare against. That is the cherry picking that I am talking about.
If you are blasting something at over 100 feet away, why didn't you choose Weapon Infusion with range 100 feet and Volley trait? Yes, it will lose the Propulsive trait damage, so will only deal (probably) 2d8+4, but you won't have any worse range penalty than the composite longbow dealing only 2d8+2.
How about comparing that to the damage and range of a spellcaster's cantrip - such as the Earth cantrip Scatter Scree. 30 foot maximum range and at level 5 does 4d4+0 damage.
As for action cost, remember that a second shot with a composite longbow is going to take the -5 MAP penalty. Factor that into your expected value damage calculations and see whether 2d8+2+4 at full bonus is all that different than 2d8+2 at full bonus plus 2d8+2 at -5 penalty.
Would Kineticist really be that game breaking if I could actually hit magic immune enemies ?
And the arguably worst part: If the enemy has Resistance or dare I say, Immunity to Fire my damage falls off a cliff. Oh but I could Extract Elements them right! Not unless they are specifically "Fire" monsters. And considering that, there are actually a lot of non-Fire monsters that are highly resistant to or immune to fire, I'll have to go back and just twiddle my thumbs, whilst casting very mediocre 2 action Kinetic Blasts.
You already mentioned having Weapon Infusion. And two elements. If fighting fire immune enemies that aren't affected by Extract Elements, use Earth damage Impulses. Or weapon infused basic kinetic blast.
Are there monsters like this for melee martials ? How common is physical resistance or physical immunity (If that even exists) ?
Lol, yes. Try being a precision damage martial like Rogue or Swashbuckler and fighting an Ooze or Undead that are immune to precision damage.
Have fun doing 1-hand finesse weapon damage with low STR bonus and no precision damage boosts.
Its also not even my biggest problem, but items. Kineticists get Gate Attenuators. Thats it.
Spellcasters don't even get those - zero items boost spell attack bonus. So I'm not sure what the complaint here is.
No other fancy cool items to help.
Get Kinetic Activation and a Staff of Fire or a Staff of Earth.
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Kineticists exist in a weird and wonderful space between materials and casters. If you compare the best parts of martials against similar pieces of kineticists (martial strike vs kinetic blast), it will make kineticists look bad. In that same vein, if you compare top level caster spells vs same level damage impulses, that too will make kineticists look bad. The best way to use a kineticist, in my experience, is to mix blasts with area impulses so you don't have to worry about MAP like most martials do, and you might get a couple enemies instead of just one.
The class is going to click for some people, but for some it never will. If you think that a martial longbow user out damaging a kineticist at range is unfair, well, that's just the way it is. A martial archer doesn't have all the other cool stuff kineticists do, like their blast being able to switch between range, melee, damage types, and a bunch of traits if you take weapon infusion, all while not taking up your hand. A kineticist also has plenty of thematic options that are (imo) extremely cool.
As far as fire options being unfavorable in some situations, yeah that's a downfall of fire as an element. It does (especially at high levels) the most damage by far of the elements, but it's all fire damage. That's by design. If you don't like it, it's not very hard to branch out to another element and take, say, tremor.
Personally I'm playing a kineticist whose not damage focused (water/wood/air) and with just elemental blast and tidal hands/lightning dash, I do very respectable damage when I want to.
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Yeah, Kineticist is weak.
Pyrokineticist is fine in damage when you combine the Aura Junction and Thermal Nimbus but you need to position yourself in the thick of things (even if it becomes easier at level 10). And of course you lose all of that against Fire Immune/Resistant enemies.
But overall, the class is nowhere close to impressive, you need to find a broken ability (Fire Aura Junction, Timber Sentinel) and just focus on it to perform ok.
I do know there are also quite a lot of Precision immune enemies. But what about Physical immune ? Whats stopping, lets say, a Fighter or Barbarian ? Why does everyone else have to deal with enemies immune to them where as some (Non-precision) martials just get to do their thing without thought ?
Fact checking here:
There are 351 creatures that have resistance to all physical damage.
There are 286 creatures that have resistance to fire damage and don't have the Fire trait.
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And being a Fire creature doesn't really solve the issue as Extract Element is mostly useless against Fire-Immune creatures (which most Fire creatures are).
And considering all the hoops I have to go through to get it to work in the first place, (Being next to enemies, having Aura Junction and Thermal Nimbus up, having to hit multiple enemies with Flying Flame, not using Overflow impulses to not turn off my aura) I wished it was better and not just barely more than the Fighter.
In PF2, complexity is not rewarded. The game puts everyone in the same ballpark when played to their best, which tends to push towards simpler classes if all you want is effectiveness.
Also, the Kineticist doesn't compare to martials (who are best at single target damage) but to casters (who are best at AoE damage).
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Rewording Finoan's statements...
The kineticist is a jack of all trades, and a master of none.
It's not as good as a dedicated melee martial, or ranged martial, it's not as good at CC or area damage as a caster. But it can do all of those things moderately well.
And that flexibility is a power that shouldn't be overlooked.
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Yeah, Kineticist is weak...
..But overall, the class is nowhere close to impressive, you need to find a broken ability (Fire Aura Junction, Timber Sentinel) and just focus on it to perform ok.
The Kineticist class is not weak; rather, it is a generalist class. Depending on element(s) chosen it heals, tanks, attacks single targets (ranged and melee), does AoE and has area control elements. So don't expect to lead the pack in any of these areas, expect to do a pretty good job in multiple areas.
An area effect attack combined with Safe Elements allows you to get your AoE off in confined areas that are not conducive to Fireball/Lightning Bolt/etc. Sure it's probably less damage, but you get to use it more often. Similarly Ocean Balm/Fresh Produce won't heal as much as a Cleric's font spells, but you get to do it all day long & a Cleric will run out.
In short, stop comparing it to a Fighter and start comparing it to a Bard.
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The kineticist is a jack of all trades, and a master of none.
The Kineticist can hardly be called a jack of all trades. It's mostly an AoE damage dealer with martial level of tanking.
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A Kineticist can do any two or three of the things listed, not all of them. (At least at low-level.)
>Having to pay the price of being a generalist class without actually being a generalist sounds awful.
I'm going to have to disagree with you there. Where do you get the part about not actually being a generalist from?
> As for the Bard comparison, isn't Bard simply one of the best classes in the game? I really don't think Kineticist has anything across any of its elements that can compete with a simple +1 to the already strong martials. I suppose Timber Sentinel, but that sounds closer to Champion than Bard. But regardless, thats not something I can do.
If the Timber Sentinel can compete with the +1 for Martials that Bards provide, then you have answered your own question. If you can't do that, then that is a choice you made. (And please don't bring the Champion class into it, unless you want to call a Champion a generalist.)
Let's see. If a Wood Kineticist can bring in a Timber Sentinel, what can other Elements bring in? Note that it's easy to get extra elemental types; you can even start with two! So access to Timber Sentinel is available from level one, and repeatably available as you level up.
Air starts with Four Winds, which gives four party members movement to help close in on enemies with. This can potentially save four PCs an action. Plus an Air Gate junction can give you and a nearby ally a 10' land speed bonus (again, if you chose this option). Air also provides mass flight, but at 14th level.
Earth gets Sand Snatcher at 6th level, which can grab opponents. Doesn't give a +1 to lots of allies, but inflicts grabbed/off-guard conditions. That opens the door Sneak Attack and other options.
Fire; you can choose a gate junction inflicting a Weakness to Fire on nearby enemies of many/most types. Also there is Thermal Nimbus, which provides Fire/Cold resistance.
Metal; Conducive Sphere yields Electrical Resistance and a Shock Rune to metal weapons (doesn't turn on until level eight). Also, there's a gate junction that gives a -1 AC to enemies made of metal or wearing metal armor... not universally applicable but highly usefull when it does.
Water; there's a gate junction that provides Fire Resistance. Ocean's Balm provides Healing (in or out of combat). You can also inflict off-guard on every enemy in your aura.
Other than the much-lauded +1 to attack, what else makes the Bard (or indeed, any other class) a serviceable generalist?
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Vis Longbows...
Eh, most of the people I run into in PFS prefer the Shortbow, just to get away from the Volley trait.
Enemies don't stay at range very often. Generally speaking, either they close or you do. Then you either shoot into combat or draw a melee weapon. I don't know about you, but I'd rather shoot into melee combat with a base 1d6 damage than shoot at -2 with base 1d8 damage.
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I'm going to have to disagree with you there. Where do you get the part about not actually being a generalist from?
The Kineticist can:
- Tank. Thanks to Con as main attribute it has martial hit points. And there are a few defensive Impulses here and there. You also have a free hand for a Shield.- Deal AoE damage. It's supposed to be its schtick but it's rather bad at it. You have to grab broken abilities like Fire Aura Junction or, at high level, Desert Wind to be an actual damage dealer.
- Wall. Kineticist is nowhere close to a caster when walling because it needs 2 rounds to wall (one to cast the Wall and one where it needs to Sustain it and Gather Elements). But... it's all day walling. So the Kineticist can be a waller.
- Timber Sentinel. It's broken and is often the first Impulses Kineticist defenders speak about. Unfortunately, every class is 2 feat away from doing it as good as the Kineticist does.
- Mobility. Air, and a bit Fire, have a few mobility enhancing Impulses. They're not bad but they are niche. Four Winds is in general considered "super cool" but it's actual impact on a fight is rather low. Mobility is a niche ability, most fights are quite static.
Things the Kineticist can't really do:
- Single target damage. Your AoE Impulses are actually more damaging than your single target Impulses. Obviously, you can deal single target damage through AoE Impulses but they don't carry the expected damage of a single target damage dealer.
- Heal. Medic Dedication is just straight up better and accessible to everyone. The only thing you do is out of combat healing.
- Control (besides walls). The Kineticist has access to a lot of control Impulses but they are for the biggest part just plain bad.
- Skills. Worst class in the game for skills.
Another problem of the Kineticist is the cost of being a jack of all trades. First, Impulses are your main weapons and focusing more on utility than offense is not really a good choice. Also, offensive Impulses age badly so you need to use your top level Impulses for offensive options.
And then there's the "element" issue. It's great to be able to do a lot of things but each of these things are limited to a few elements. And grabbing new elements takes time (levels), and comes at an actual opportunity cost: not getting a junction.
So before very high levels, the Kineticist is nowhere close to a jack of all trades. And even at high level it hardly competes with a caster. The Kineticist is a few-trick poney.
Other than the much-lauded +1 to attack, what else makes the Bard (or indeed, any other class) a serviceable generalist?
I don't consider the Bard a Generalist. Bard is first and foremost a buffer/debuffer. There are much more versatile classes in the game.
PS: I very often see players mistaking specialized characters for versatile ones. Having the potential to do a lot of things is not enough to be versatile, you need to be able to do these things "simultaneously".
Kineticist, Animist and prepared casters are not versatile. They can, on paper, do a lot of things. But they are mutually exclusive: If you prepare a spell then you don't prepare another one, if you choose one Apparition you don't have another one, if you take an Impulse you don't have another one. The end result being that at a specific moment, your actual choices are limited. And having limited choices is not exactly the definition of versatility.
On the other hand, the Summoner is versatile. It can deal martial damage, cast spells and use skills, and these are not really exclusive, it can do all of them always. And because it has more actions than other classes it can actually do them simultaneously. Which is why the Summoner is, in my opinion, the undisputed most versatile class in the game.
Lightning dash is interesting. While an initial read of it might think of it as a move power, it's actually more a line attack with an 'escape reactive strike' clause. The damage scales similarly to all the other 2a overflow impulses, so IMO it really should be thought of as an attack power.
I don't know why you reacted to me speaking about mobility as I agree with you that Lightning Dash is an offensive Impulse.
And as often with offensive Impulses, it's rather nice when you get it but it ages badly...First, it's not either-or.
You have access to infinite number of feats and actions?
It's obviously either-or. And given the choice, go for Medic and ignore healing Impulses, none of them provide any form of interesting healing.That's the main issue of the Kineticist, in my opinion. Very often, you can get equivalent abilities by just grabbing an archetype. For example, at level 12, you can cast Wall of Stone with a Kineticist. But actually, at level 12, you can cast Wall of Stone with a spellcasting Dedication.
@Easl: I think we are no more speaking about the same thing.
Lightning Dash ages badly: At level 4, a 2d12 30-feet line spell is really nice, at level 8 a 3d12 35-feet line spell is rather meh.
Similarly, when I speak about Medic, I don't speak about a Kineticist taking the Medic Archetype. I'm speaking about the fact that if the Kineticist is a healer, then everyone is because everyone can take the Medic Archetype for the same cost (a few feats) and get better at healing than a Kineticist.
Same goes with Dedications. Do you think you'll need a dozen casts of Wall of Stone? I hardly think so, walls are super nice to have but it's not a routine, it's for specific situations. Having a couple of Wall of Stones per day is all you need and Dedications can provide you with that quite efficiently.
Roughly, a lot of what is supposed to give the Kineticist its versatility is actually available to everyone for similar costs (even if I realize I made a mistake, you get Wall of Stone at level 14 with a Dedication, but still at the cost of a level 12 feat).
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The kineticist is a jack of all trades, and a master of none.The Kineticist can hardly be called a jack of all trades. It's mostly an AoE damage dealer with martial level of tanking.
The Kineticist in my group who loves to use Timber Sentinel and Jagged Berms would like to disagree with you.
If you think that the Kineticist is mostly an AoE damage dealer then you've only been exploring a small subset of its options.
The Kineticist in my group who loves to use Timber Sentinel and Jagged Berms would like to disagree with you.
Yeah, Timber Sentinel again.
Any time you criticize the Kineticist, someone brings, over and over again, Timber Sentinel.It looks like the class could be renamed as Timber Sentinelist.
Jagged Berms is bad even if I see how it can combo with Timber Sentinel (again).
It's no wall spell, but being able to conjure 6 squares/cubes of dirt with pointy bits can be pretty useful.
It's unclear if they can be stack on top of another, but if they can it would be very useful to block a passage way.
It's also useful to force an enemy to climb over (and take damage) or to spend extra movement/actions walking around it, while it provides cover. Is it the best battlefield manipulation? No, but it's useful nonetheless.
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Its ranged damage is, frankly, nothing impressive. My 2 action Earth Kinetic Blast with Weapon Infusion does 2d8+2+4 at +12 to hit with a range of 50 feet. Where as any Dex based Martial switching to a secondary weapon Composite Longbow does 2d8+2 at +14 with a range of 100 feet. For 1 action!Fine, maybe its just the Kinetic Blast thats a bit bad, I'm sure the impulses will at least be pretty good. Buuut to actually use most of these impulses effectively and deal solid damage, I need to be right in the enemies' faces. Then at least their damage will probably competitive with that of a melee martial right ? As I have more things that I am juggling at once right ? Oh, no ? Oh okay.
So, I need to hit way more enemies to actually get close to the damage of, say, a Fighter. I need enemies to be within 10 feet of me at all times to make use of my Aura Junction and Thermal Nimbus so I need to not use Overflow impulses, and to also hit them with Flying Flame which has a fairly short reach. And obviously, against Bosses I am fairly useless.
The thing is, your ranged blast is just something in your arsenal, something you can do ALMOST as good as a dedicated ranged martial, while just being a dilettante. As a fire/earth kineticist who wants to deal damage, you're not ranged, my friend - you're a melee fighter. And getting almost ranged-martial DPS AT RANGE while being a MELEE fighter is awesome, wouldn't you agree ?
Now let's see what happens if you properly embrace your earth/fire melee side.
Through armor in earth, you have the highest AC of the party (tied with other plate users) AND armor specialization (noone, even the champion, has it so early) which means you have, starting at lvl 3, resistance 2 to slashing. Your HP should be quite good as well since you have +4 in CON, putting you on par with most partials and higher than some (hello rogue, thaumaturge, warpriest...). And you have lava leap for action compression (move + damage + raise shield). So yeah, don't hesitate to get personal, fire/earth is a very in-your-face playstyle.
With a starting 16 STR (becoming 18 at lvl 5) you now deal a respectable 2d8+6 damage with one action, 2d8+10 with two actions... +4 unavoidable damage on every opponent.
Those 4 unavoidable damage (which next level will become 6) are what makes you so fearsome.
- A boss with +2 level will be very hard to hit... but not by you, who'll slowly turn him into ash with no save and no attack roll - that's very aggravating for the DM.
- A horde of minions demultiply its power, so that if you manage to get 4 opponents in your aura, you get 16 (soon to be 24) unavoidable damage EVERY F*CKIN ROUND.
So basically, you're incredibly useful against a boss AND you're incredibly useful against hordes. And that's not even counting impulses like flying flame - if you have 3 actions to spare, you can hit AND burst without MAP.
And if they're too far away, you can still blast while other martials have to sheathe their weapon, get a bow and start plinking away.
And that's without counting all the utility impulses you can get later (through those gates or other gates) like healing, flying, burrowing, spike skin, invisibility, haste...
Don't underestimate fire/earth kineticist, it's tough, resilient and powerful.
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Jagged Berms is bad even if I see how it can combo with Timber Sentinel (again).
If you think Jagged Berms is bad then you haven’t seen it used by a competent player. It’s situational, sure. But when the situation comes up it is absolutely devastating.
And that is the key to a decent kineticist. You have several different tools in your bag, picking the one that meets the situation.
Which is a LONG way from it just being an AoE blaster
And that is the key to a decent kineticist. You have several different tools in your bag, picking the one that meets the situation.
I've seen a lvl 1-10 Metal Kineticist, a lvl 2-10 Earth Kineticist, a lvl 6 Earth/Fire Kineticist, a lvl 1-4 Air Kineticist and a lvl 1-4 Wood Kineticist. The Wood Kineticist was a pain, as Timber Sentinel is a pain to handle (strong, but annoying from a GM perspective and even from a player perspective). The Metal, Air and Earth Kineticists were bad, the Earth/Fire one was disappointing (it's a solid build, the player seemed solid but the end result was not impressive at all).
I've also kind of played a Water Kineticist (got it from Free Archetype on a high level character) and it was worse than expected (and I wasn't expecting much).
So, maybe no one manages to be decent with a Kineticist. From my point of view, it's just bad.
Jagged Berms is bad even if I see how it can combo with Timber Sentinel (again).
If you think Jagged Berms is bad then you haven’t seen it used by a competent player. It’s situational, sure. But when the situation comes up it is absolutely devastating.
And that is the key to a decent kineticist. You have several different tools in your bag, picking the one that meets the situation.
Which is a LONG way from it just being an AoE blaster
Berms + whirling throw or a pole arm control fighter, just keep them in the damage pool.
Wall of stone at will to escape a LOT of bad encounters or split enemy groups.
Kin can bring a lot of options to a group, very few classes are going to bring fighter or barb combat ending power, but you bring options for great party tactical builds. Your group just needs to be able to use them.
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And that is the key to a decent kineticist. You have several different tools in your bag, picking the one that meets the situation.I've seen a lvl 1-10 Metal Kineticist, a lvl 2-10 Earth Kineticist, a lvl 6 Earth/Fire Kineticist, a lvl 1-4 Air Kineticist and a lvl 1-4 Wood Kineticist. .
So, you have NOT seen a kineticist using Jagged Berms then. But you still claim it is just plain bad. Interesting.
Everyone cries about the fire resistances, no one gives credit for easily triggering fire weakness three times every round on one guy (blast, aura, AOE impulse) and twice on any others close enough.
I Would Simply Only Adventure On The Crown Of The World And Plane Of Wood.
I do know there are also quite a lot of Precision immune enemies. But what about Physical immune ? Whats stopping, lets say, a Fighter or Barbarian ? Why does everyone else have to deal with enemies immune to them where as some (Non-precision) martials just get to do their thing without thought ?Fact checking here:
There are 351 creatures that have resistance to all physical damage.
There are 286 creatures that have resistance to fire damage and don't have the Fire trait.
Now, do damage immunity for both.
Yeah, Kineticist is weak...
..But overall, the class is nowhere close to impressive, you need to find a broken ability (Fire Aura Junction, Timber Sentinel) and just focus on it to perform ok.
The Kineticist class is not weak; rather, it is a generalist class. Depending on element(s) chosen it heals, tanks, attacks single targets (ranged and melee), does AoE and has area control elements. So don't expect to lead the pack in any of these areas, expect to do a pretty good job in multiple areas.
An area effect attack combined with Safe Elements allows you to get your AoE off in confined areas that are not conducive to Fireball/Lightning Bolt/etc. Sure it's probably less damage, but you get to use it more often. Similarly Ocean Balm/Fresh Produce won't heal as much as a Cleric's font spells, but you get to do it all day long & a Cleric will run out.
In short, stop comparing it to a Fighter and start comparing it to a Bard.
Compared to a Druid or a Bard the Kineticist doesn't look great. Bard, as boring as it can be in play, is highly effective. The Druid can heal, deal AoE damage, and wade into melee as needed.
Kines are stuck in that awkward Alchemist spot where they can play okay, but take more system mastery than they should to be properly effective.
Everyone cries about the fire resistances, no one gives credit for easily triggering fire weakness three times every round on one guy (blast, aura, AOE impulse) and twice on any others close enough.
The Fire Aura Junction gives a fire weakness to the enemy (equivalent to low Fire Weakness according to the GM core) and you can't combine weaknesses. So you only trigger high Fire Weaknesses and you only get half of the extra damage then.
So, you have NOT seen a kineticist using Jagged Berms then. But you still claim it is just plain bad. Interesting.
Sorry, Paul, I assume I annoyed you because our conversations tend to be more civil usually.
This conversation is, overall, about the Kineticist, not just Jagged Berms (and I have the right to find it bad from reading it ;) ). I personally consider the Kineticist to be one of the weakest class in the game, both from reading the class and seeing it played. I've seen countless people praising its versatility but I've seen the exact opposite: A class stuck with a couple of tricks desperately trying to sell them to the GM and the players.
I was specifically not comparing myself to an actual dedicated ranged martial, as thats a fight that I am willing to lose for the benefits of AoE. However, losing a fight against any random martial picking up a Composite Longbow, and being beaten on ranged damage is quite sad. I would expect a Gunslinger to out damage in terms of pure ranged damage. I certainly wouldn't have expected the Fighter who isn't focused on bows to beat me in ranged DPS, when they already beat me in melee as well.
However I agree. Armor In Earth is very nice and Lava Leap is very cool as well.
Our Fighter literally has more health than me lol. Not by a lot, but stilL. Whilst being CON based has its upsides (Such as the nice health pool), but its also neutered by the fact that 1) It has no skills. 2) I need to be in the thick of things to actually contribute. So its less of a bonus and more of a mandate. And with the 8+CON, its not any higher than a martial putting points into CON.
Whilst guranteed damage is good, guranteed (As long as its not resisted at all) 4 damage is not a whole lot. And considering I have to be face tanking the boss, I don't think thats quite good enough. But yes, it does get way better the more enemies I have in my Aura. I think getting 4 enemies is pushing it a bit, especially before level 10, but it could technically happen. And 2 or 3 is fairly reasonable.
And about the things I *can* get access to later, it is going to be WAY later and not really a reasonable part of my kit, as I need to get the Fire Impulse Junction to keep up. So the earliest I can get a branching Element is 13, and frankly, thats if we even ever get there.
There's a few interesting things here.
First of all, like someone said, you're talking about one of the few levels where Kineticist proficiency is below martials. That's levels 5,6, 13 and 14 so 4 levels out of 20.
So unless you're in this level range, your melee fighter has the same proficiency as you do and probably doesn't have runes slotted on his bow - he also doesn't have point blank shot since he's a melee specialist. Your kineticist will easily outdps him (btw, since we're talking about runes, not needing to buy striking runes is a huge boon when your budget is tight !).
And that's not counting the fact that he has to drop his weapon or interact to sheathe, then interact again (or quick draw) to get his bow, then do the same all over again if someone engages him in melee.
Meanwhile, the kineticist can blast at range and/or hit at melee distance and even get free reach and/or use AOE spells, and burn his enemies to a crisp with no sweat (no pun intended). No other class can switch hit as well as a kineticist.
I also see a lot of people sweating (again ^^) because of fire-resistant or fire-immune monsters. And that's a pain, that's true. But here's the thing: thermal nimbus can EITHER deal frost or cold, and you can use your d8 earth impulse just fine. So the only thing you lose against fire-immune opponents is your aura weakness - but sometimes they get a weakness to cold and that's a net gain.
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Sorry, Paul, I assume I annoyed you because our conversations tend to be more civil usually.
I shouldn't have been snarky like that. Sorry.
I just disagree with you so much on your basic point. Kineticists are a fine class. In general they make for quite versatile characters. Oh, they're not as good at anything as the specialists, but they're better at everything else except the specialty.
Like all generalists they are going to lose some of their value in really well constructed groups that cover all the bases. But even there they do fine. And they shine in settings like PFS or casual games where their ability to be decent at multiple things becomes very valuable.
Last night I played in a game that illustrated the value of their versatility. At the very start of L3 we got into a incorporeal heavy dungeon. Being able to do spirit damage rocked, making it tied with the alchemist as the most valuable martial in the group. Or it was tied with the fighter and alchemist when dealing with the zombies as they had slashing damage.
Versatility has huge value and it can often be overlooked. And most kineticists have a lot of it (not all, admittedly. But the fire kineticist is a pretty decent AoE sort)
I shouldn't have been snarky like that. Sorry.
Don't worry, no harm done.
I just disagree with you so much on your basic point. Kineticists are a fine class.
Well, we will certainly agree to disagree on that. Whether it's a question of expectations or experience, we didn't come to the same conclusion.
Versatility has huge value and it can often be overlooked.
Definitely. I'm a great proponent of versatility. But I find the Kineticist doesn't embody versatility at all, I consider it one of the most specialized class in the game. For me, it's literally a few-trick poney.
So I think our disagreement comes from something deep, on the very meaning of versatility in the context of PF2.
Anyway, I won't disrupt this conversation more than that. If people like the Kineticist, it's great. To each their own!