Necron_'s page

Necron_ wrote:

Its ranged damage is, frankly, nothing impressive. My 2 action Earth Kinetic Blast with Weapon Infusion does 2d8+2+4 at +12 to hit with a range of 50 feet. Where as any Dex based Martial switching to a secondary weapon Composite Longbow does 2d8+2 at +14 with a range of 100 feet. For 1 action!

Fine, maybe its just the Kinetic Blast thats a bit bad, I'm sure the impulses will at least be pretty good. Buuut to actually use most of these impulses effectively and deal solid damage, I need to be right in the enemies' faces. Then at least their damage will probably competitive with that of a melee martial right ? As I have more things that I am juggling at once right ? Oh, no ? Oh okay.

So, I need to hit way more enemies to actually get close to the damage of, say, a Fighter. I need enemies to be within 10 feet of me at all times to make use of my Aura Junction and Thermal Nimbus so I need to not use Overflow impulses, and to also hit them with Flying Flame which has a fairly short reach. And obviously, against Bosses I am fairly useless.

The thing is, your ranged blast is just something in your arsenal, something you can do ALMOST as good as a dedicated ranged martial, while just being a dilettante. As a fire/earth kineticist who wants to deal damage, you're not ranged, my friend - you're a melee fighter. And getting almost ranged-martial DPS AT RANGE while being a MELEE fighter is awesome, wouldn't you agree ?

Now let's see what happens if you properly embrace your earth/fire melee side.

Through armor in earth, you have the highest AC of the party (tied with other plate users) AND armor specialization (noone, even the champion, has it so early) which means you have, starting at lvl 3, resistance 2 to slashing. Your HP should be quite good as well since you have +4 in CON, putting you on par with most partials and higher than some (hello rogue, thaumaturge, warpriest...). And you have lava leap for action compression (move + damage + raise shield). So yeah, don't...

I was specifically not comparing myself to an actual dedicated ranged martial, as thats a fight that I am willing to lose for the benefits of AoE. However, losing a fight against any random martial picking up a Composite Longbow, and being beaten on ranged damage is quite sad. I would expect a Gunslinger to out damage in terms of pure ranged damage. I certainly wouldn't have expected the Fighter who isn't focused on bows to beat me in ranged DPS, when they already beat me in melee as well.

However I agree. Armor In Earth is very nice and Lava Leap is very cool as well.

Our Fighter literally has more health than me lol. Not by a lot, but stilL. Whilst being CON based has its upsides (Such as the nice health pool), but its also neutered by the fact that 1) It has no skills. 2) I need to be in the thick of things to actually contribute. So its less of a bonus and more of a mandate. And with the 8+CON, its not any higher than a martial putting points into CON.

Whilst guranteed damage is good, guranteed (As long as its not resisted at all) 4 damage is not a whole lot. And considering I have to be face tanking the boss, I don't think thats quite good enough. But yes, it does get way better the more enemies I have in my Aura. I think getting 4 enemies is pushing it a bit, especially before level 10, but it could technically happen. And 2 or 3 is fairly reasonable.

And about the things I *can* get access to later, it is going to be WAY later and not really a reasonable part of my kit, as I need to get the Fire Impulse Junction to keep up. So the earliest I can get a branching Element is 13, and frankly, thats if we even ever get there.

SuperBidi wrote:

Yeah, Kineticist is weak...

..But overall, the class is nowhere close to impressive, you need to find a broken ability (Fire Aura Junction, Timber Sentinel) and just focus on it to perform ok.

The Kineticist class is not weak; rather, it is a generalist class. Depending on element(s) chosen it heals, tanks, attacks both single targets (ranged and melee), does AoE and has area control elements. So don't expect to lead the pack in any of these areas, expect to do a pretty good job in multiple areas.

An area effect attack combined with Safe Elements allows you to get your AoE off in confined areas that are not conducive to Fireball/Lightning Bolt/etc. Sure it's probably less damage, but you get to use it more often. Similarly Ocean Balm/Fresh Produce won't heal as much as a Cleric's font spells, but you get to do it all day long & a Cleric will run out.

In short, stop comparing it to a Fighter and start comparing it to a Bard.

Thing is, no one Kineticist can do all those until the very latest levels. For example, my current Kineticist is very focused on at least attemping to deal damage and take hits.

As for the Bard comparison, isn't Bard simply one of the best classes in the game ? I really don't think Kineticist has anything across any of its elements that can compete with a simple +1 to the already strong martials. I suppose Timber Sentinel, but that sounds closer to Champion than Bard. But regardless, thats not something I can do.

And being a Fire creature doesn't really solve the issue as Extract Element is mostly useless against Fire-Immune creatures (which most Fire creatures are).

Well yeah. It gives them their level*2 in resistance to fire. So honestly, it probably still turns off my Fire damage for the most part.

So basically: Fire Immune creatures halt your damage to a crawl, and non-Fire creatures with Resistance to Fire also do so. Basically only really effective against Fire creatures with Resistance to Fire specifically.

Thats... Pretty rough.

Yeah, Kineticist is weak.

Pyrokineticist is fine in damage when you combine the Aura Junction and Thermal Nimbus but you need to position yourself in the thick of things (even if it becomes easier at level 10). And of course you lose all of that against Fire Immune/Resistant enemies.

But overall, the class is nowhere close to impressive, you need to find a broken ability (Fire Aura Junction, Timber Sentinel) and just focus on it to perform ok.

Well that is very unfortunate. Just based on how this experience is going, even though I very much like my character, I don't think I'll ever touch a Kineticist (At least a low level one) ever again.

I like my character, but dislike the balancing act required to be at least comparable to other classes.

Kineticists exist in a weird and wonderful space between materials and casters. If you compare the best parts of martials against similar pieces of kineticists (martial strike vs kinetic blast), it will make kineticists look bad. In that same vein, if you compare top level caster spells vs same level damage impulses, that too will make kineticists look bad. The best way to use a kineticist, in my experience, is to mix blasts with area impulses so you don't have to worry about MAP like most martials do, and you might get a couple enemies instead of just one.

The class is going to click for some people, but for some it never will. If you think that a martial longbow user out damaging a kineticist at range is unfair, well, that's just the way it is. A martial archer doesn't have all the other cool stuff kineticists do, like their blast being able to switch between range, melee, damage types, and a bunch of traits if you take weapon infusion, all while not taking up your hand. A kineticist also has plenty of thematic options that are (imo) extremely cool.

As far as fire options being unfavorable in some situations, yeah that's a downfall of fire as an element. It does (especially at high levels) the most damage by far of the elements, but it's all fire damage. That's by design. If you don't like it, it's not very hard to branch out to another element and take, say, tremor.

Personally I'm playing a kineticist whose not damage focused (water/wood/air) and with just elemental blast and tidal hands/lightning dash, I do very respectable damage when I want to.

That is already what I am doing, and its working fine. I would be fine with an Impulse being weaker than the high level spell slots, but I think wanting them to compare relatively well with strikes is not too much to ask for.

And considering all the hoops I have to go through to get it to work in the first place, (Being next to enemies, having Aura Junction and Thermal Nimbus up, having to hit multiple enemies with Flying Flame, not using Overflow impulses to not turn off my aura) I wished it was better and not just barely more than the Fighter.

First, you are looking specifically at level 5, where martials just got a weapon proficiency boost while spellcaster's don't get their spellcasting proficiency boost until level 7. That is why the difference between +12 and +14 in attack bonus.

I mean, I suppose so. But still, just simply being worse every couple of levels doesn't feel great. And at least Spellcasters get the choice to not use spells with Spell Attack Rolls. Where as Kinetic Blast is one of my core abilities. And also almost my only abilities against enemies strong against fire.

And then looking at choice of comparison. You picked the absolute best in class long-ranged ranged weapon to compare against. That is the cherry picking that I am talking about.

If you are blasting something at over 100 feet away, why didn't you choose Weapon Infusion with range 100 feet and Volley trait? Yes, it will lose the Propulsive trait damage, so will only deal (probably) 2d8+4, but you won't have any worse range penalty than the composite longbow dealing only 2d8+2.

How about comparing that to the damage and range of a spellcaster's cantrip - such as the Earth cantrip Scatter Scree. 30 foot maximum range and at level 5 does 4d4+0 damage.

As for action cost, remember that a second shot with a composite longbow is going to take the -5 MAP penalty. Factor that into your expected value damage calculations and see whether 2d8+2+4 at full bonus is all that different than 2d8+2 at full bonus plus 2d8+2 at -5 penalty.

Its the Longbow. Of course I'd choose to compare against it. I think if you think of "Ranged Martial", you almost for sure think of a martial using a Longobw. And I didn't mention the 100 feet version of Weapon Infusion, as its comparing a 2d8+4 at +12 vs 2d8+2 at +14. The +14 wins out basically every time I think. And while sure, After level 7 it'll equal out.

And comparing it to Scatter Scree (or Electric Arc), which can hit 2 enemies. It'd be 4d4 with a save * 2 VS 2d8+4+2(or+4). Now this is a bit "White-room"y, but assuming its against an on level enemy with Moderate Reflexes and hits twice, it does around 14~ damage, as opposed to my Kinetic Blast, dealing between 9~ damage average at 50 feet against High AC level 5 foes or 11.9~ damage average against 20 feet moderate AC level 5 foes. So actually, it kinda loses!

And I also mentioned how I dealt less than a primarily melee character going into range with a backup weapon. Yes, that is an option if the enemy resists fire. Its however not an option if the enemy resists magic entirely. Then I just stand there staring at the enemy, hoping it doesn't hit my decent AC with Armor In Earth.

Necron_ wrote:

Would Kineticist really be that game breaking if I could actually hit magic immune enemies ?

And the arguably worst part: If the enemy has Resistance or dare I say, Immunity to Fire my damage falls off a cliff. Oh but I could Extract Elements them right! Not unless they are specifically "Fire" monsters. And considering that, there are actually a lot of non-Fire monsters that are highly resistant to or immune to fire, I'll have to go back and just twiddle...

I do know there are also quite a lot of Precision immune enemies. But what about Physical immune ? Whats stopping, lets say, a Fighter or Barbarian ? Why does everyone else have to deal with enemies immune to them where as some (Non-precision) martials just get to do their thing without thought ?

Spellcasters don't get Gate Attenuters, true. And frankly, spellcasters also seem in an absolutely horrible spot. Like good lord. I don't think I'd ever never want to play a caster in this system.
But anyway, they do get other items though. First, they literally have items unique to them similar to Kineticist, in the mainly Shadow Signet but probably other stuff. Also, they get to use Wands or Staffs without having to invest a feat for it, and without losing whats basically a new spell they can learn.

Though, this wasn't my main complaint. It was just the cherry on top of this really bad pie.

So, I am new to Pathfinder 2e and Pathfinder as a whole. I've played the CRPG Wrath of the Righteous, and even if it was drastically different than both the normal Wrath of the Righteous AP and normal Pathfinder 1e as a whole, I thought I had at least had a good understanding for what the classes were meant to be like.

Then I decided to pick Kineticist for my character as it was a class I loved both in the game and the idea of. And looking at it from a glance, it seemed like it kept the general idea of blasting all day and being still pretty effective.

And now, a couple months later and up to level 5, I am starting to really hate some very critical parts of it.

Kineticist seems like its balanced around being weaker than a Caster for the most part at the cost of not having to deal with spell slots. I'd be fine with it if thats where it ended though.

Its ranged damage is, frankly, nothing impressive. My 2 action Earth Kinetic Blast with Weapon Infusion does 2d8+2+4 at +12 to hit with a range of 50 feet. Where as any Dex based Martial switching to a secondary weapon Composite Longbow does 2d8+2 at +14 with a range of 100 feet. For 1 action!

Fine, maybe its just the Kinetic Blast thats a bit bad, I'm sure the impulses will at least be pretty good. Buuut to actually use most of these impulses effectively and deal solid damage, I need to be right in the enemies' faces. Then at least their damage will probably competitive with that of a melee martial right ? As I have more things that I am juggling at once right ? Oh, no ? Oh okay.

So, I need to hit way more enemies to actually get close to the damage of, say, a Fighter. I need enemies to be within 10 feet of me at all times to make use of my Aura Junction and Thermal Nimbus so I need to not use Overflow impulses, and to also hit them with Flying Flame which has a fairly short reach. And obviously, against Bosses I am fairly useless.

And on top of all that, Kineticist doesn't even get to make use of most things, while being directly turned off by so many things. Our Magus asked me "Does your Kinetic Blasts count as Unarmed ? Should I Runic Body you ?" Lol, no I replied. Fine, they aren't strike. But wait, they also aren't spells! ...Until they are. They are spells for things that are meant to specifically negatively effect you. Why ? Would Kineticist really be that game breaking if I could actually hit magic immune enemies ?

And the arguably worst part: If the enemy has Resistance or dare I say, Immunity to Fire my damage falls off a cliff. Oh but I could Extract Elements them right! Not unless they are specifically "Fire" monsters. And considering that, there are actually a lot of non-Fire monsters that are highly resistant to or immune to fire, I'll have to go back and just twiddle my thumbs, whilst casting very mediocre 2 action Kinetic Blasts.

Are there monsters like this for melee martials ? How common is physical resistance or physical immunity (If that even exists) ? Why is it that martials get to do their thing all day every day against all enemies, whilst I am stuck praying I don't come accross anything vaguely fire-y.

Its also not even my biggest problem, but items. Kineticists get Gate Attenuators. Thats it. No other fancy cool items to help. I would rather not spend my money on consumables, and would rather get permanent buffs like the rest of the party. Thankfully, there is an option this level in the form of the Armor Rune. But I dread other levels where there isn't one.

That's all to say, what is up with Kineticists ? Why are they like this ? Am I missing something ? Is there a specific gimmick to making them stronger ? Is the answer to just wait until I get to level 10 to get Aura Shaping and then to level 18 where my damage skyrockets with Ignite the Sun ?
Is this the general Kineticist experience ? Should I have just gone with a more support orianted one, which seems pretty damn amazing with Protector Tree ?

Though, all of this considered, I love them regardless. They just feel really cozy. Until I think about numbers anyway.