I dunno if the archtype is worth it now since isn't it an action to mark prey? Any advice from Avenger rogue players?
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You can deal sneak attack damage with your deity’s favored weapon, in addition to the weapons listed in the sneak attack class feature. When you critically succeed at an attack roll using your deity’s favored weapon and the target has the off-guard condition, you also apply the weapon’s critical specialization effect.
Nothing states that you need to attack a hunted prey to get Sneak Attack benefits. Sneak Attack works as normal for rogues.
Hunt Prey just gives its normal bonuses:
You designate a single creature as your prey and focus your attacks against that creature. You must be able to see or hear the prey, or you must be tracking the prey during exploration. You gain a +2 circumstance bonus to Perception checks when you Seek your prey and a +2 circumstance bonus to Survival checks when you Track your prey. You also ignore the penalty for making ranged attacks within your second range increment against the prey you're hunting.
You can have only one creature designated as your prey at a time. If you use Hunt Prey against a creature when you already have a creature designated, the prior creature loses the designation and the new prey gains the designation. Your designation lasts until your next daily preparations.
What you are restricted to do is to use some feats actions that are restricted to a hunted pray like Twin Takedown and Second Sting.
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Nothing states that you need to attack a hunted prey to get Sneak Attack benefits. Sneak Attack works as normal for rogues.
I agree with that assessment. Hunt Prey is given as a bonus and, in balance, what is removed is Surprise Attack. Sneak Attack is unchanged.
So while an Avenger does not have enemies off-guard that they beat in initiative when the Avenger rolls Stealth or Deception for their initiative, they can still use Sneak Attack against any enemy that is off-guard to their attacks.
Hunt Prey gives its own bonuses for using the action. There are also some additional feats from the Ranger class that do require only being used against a Hunt Prey target such as Twin Takedown and Second Sting. But unless an ability requires the target be a Hunt Prey target also, the Avenger's abilities will work without needing to Hunt Prey first. So, for example, Hunt Prey is not required to use Zealous Inevitability, Silence the Profane, or Slay.
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An Avenger can sneak attack normally with traditonal sneak attack weapons. An Avenger of Cayden Cailean, for instance, does not need to hunt prey to sneak attack with their rapier. However, per errata*, the Avenger does need to hunt prey to sneak attack if their weapon is not agile or finesse. So an Avenger of Ragathiel does need to hunt prey to sneak attack with a bastard sword
Page 58: Change the first sentence of the third paragraph of the avenger racket to the following. “You can deal sneak attack damage to your prey with your deity’s favored weapon, in addition to the weapons listed in the sneak attack class feature.”
Archives of Nethys missed the added word when they updated. I'm pretty sure it's on their list of adjustments, though.
* This errata was actually released in the Alternate Mythic Rules Pdf, which came out a few days before the book released, so this is not a rules change, but a typo that was missed before the book went to printers.
Squark is correct.
What you might want to remember is that Hunt Prey doesn't always have to he done in combat. You can Hunt from tracks. Obviously you won't be doing that for every creature you ever fight, but you should be able to use it for at least some.
There's a lot of people who don't know about the errata. It specifically states you can sneak attack your prey with your divine weapon. Thus you CANNOT sneak attack like a normal rogue can while using your divine weapon.
But my question still wasn't answered. Is Avenger Rogue good with this change? Is it worth the "action tax"?
You can deal sneak attack damage with your deity’s favored weapon, in addition to the weapons listed in the sneak attack class feature. When you critically succeed at an attack roll using your deity’s favored weapon and the target has the off-guard condition, you also apply the weapon’s critical specialization effect.Nothing states that you need to attack a hunted prey to get Sneak Attack benefits. Sneak Attack works as normal for rogues.
Hunt Prey just gives its normal bonuses:
What you are restricted to do is to use some feats actions that are restricted to a hunted pray like Twin Takedown and Second Sting.You designate a single creature as your prey and focus your attacks against that creature. You must be able to see or hear the prey, or you must be tracking the prey during exploration. You gain a +2 circumstance bonus to Perception checks when you Seek your prey and a +2 circumstance bonus to Survival checks when you Track your prey. You also ignore the penalty for making ranged attacks within your second range increment against the prey you're hunting.
You can have only one creature designated as your prey at a time. If you use Hunt Prey against a creature when you already have a creature designated, the prior creature loses the designation and the new prey gains the designation. Your designation lasts until your next daily preparations.
Read the errata on the FAQ.
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Is Avenger Rogue good with this change? Is it worth the "action tax"?
Haven't seen this in play yet but my answer would be that it depends massively on what the diety's weapon is.
So, Pharasma (dagger) - definitely not.
Saloc (Guisarme) or Ragathiel (Bastard sword) - very likely overpowered (I mean, lets face it, just about ANY power up for rogues is going to make them overpowered).
Being a cynic, I expect we'll see a LOT more Avengers of Ragathiel than Pharasma.
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There's a lot of people who don't know about the errata. It specifically states you can sneak attack your prey with your divine weapon. Thus you CANNOT sneak attack like a normal rogue can while using your divine weapon.
I didn't know/remember about the errata before the Squark points it once the AoN usually applies the erratas pretty fast and we usually doesn't need to check if something was changed, so sorry for my inattention.
But I also need to point that this is only valid while the divine weapon is a non-agile/finesse weapon.
Anyway about if worth the "action tax" will depend if you have or not Twin Takedown and is using 2-weapons and how many actions you have in the turn and the damage dice size of your weapon.
I made some comparisons with Pathfinder 2e Damage Calculator:
* This graphs lacks of debilitations extra damage because this will made tome extra work to me and I don't think that will change the thing so much.
So after made this graph my own conclusion is: If you are using 2 weapons it worth to use Hunt Prey, doesn't really matter if this weapon is or not your deity weapon as long they are d8 + d6 agile because Twin Takedown compensates the action lost. A d12 two-handed weapon is better than a normal rogue if the enemy lives long enough (3 rounds or more) yet it's worse than use 2-weapons with a Twin Takedown (but this can change if the enemy have some physical resistance or resistance to one of your elemental runes while the aren't greater once that Twin Takedown doesn't sum the damage for IWR but also you the enemy has some weakness to one of your damage types this can become an advantage too).
So in general use a deity weapon doesn't care that much. The main advantage of Avenger if when they are fighting with 2 weapons where they can do 2 Strike with a single action.
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There's a lot of people who don't know about the errata.
Indeed there are. I wasn't aware of it.
It doesn't change much of what was mentioned previously though. You still don't need to use Hunt Prey to use Sneak Attack in general or to use other Avenger abilities that don't require Hunt Prey.
It specifically states you can sneak attack your prey with your divine weapon. Thus you CANNOT sneak attack like a normal rogue can while using your divine weapon.
Only if the weapon doesn't qualify for Sneak Attack normally.
Adding the ability to Sneak Attack with additional weapons (the deity's favored weapon) doesn't remove the ability to Sneak Attack with the weapons that already work with Sneak Attack.
If the deity's favored weapon is a dagger, then the Avenger can Sneak Attack with it just from being a Rogue. No need to use Hunt Prey just because it also happens to be the deity's favored weapon.
If the deity's favored weapon is a longsword, then with the errata applied, the Avenger would need to use Hunt Prey in order to Sneak Attack with that weapon. They could still Sneak Attack with a dagger without using Hunt Prey.
Wait this was an Errata, dang it. I didn't even notice!
There's a lot of people who don't know about the errata. It specifically states you can sneak attack your prey with your divine weapon. Thus you CANNOT sneak attack like a normal rogue can while using your divine weapon.I didn't know/remember about the errata before the Squark points it once the AoN usually applies the erratas pretty fast and we usually doesn't need to check if something was changed, so sorry for my inattention.
But I also need to point that this is only valid while the divine weapon is a non-agile/finesse weapon.
Anyway about if worth the "action tax" will depend if you have or not Twin Takedown and is using 2-weapons and how many actions you have in the turn and the damage dice size of your weapon.
I made some comparisons with Pathfinder 2e Damage Calculator:
If you have only 2 actions (you already use your 3rd to move/feint or any other non-attack action) and you will use one of them to Hunt Prey.
If you have all your 3 actions but you use one of your actions to Hunt Prey.
If you have all your 3 actions and you already used Hunt Prey.
* This graphs lacks of debilitations extra damage because this will made tome extra work to me and I don't think that will change the thing so much.So after made this graph my own conclusion is: If you are using 2 weapons it worth to use Hunt Prey, doesn't really matter if this weapon is or not your deity weapon as long they are d8 + d6 agile because Twin Takedown compensates the action lost. A d12 two-handed weapon is better than a normal rogue if the enemy lives long enough (3 rounds or more) yet it's worse than use 2-weapons with a Twin Takedown (but this can change if the enemy have some...
I'm using a Katana (Shizuru). So is that not any good then?
I'm wondering if a Fighter who wears light armor and can sneak would make a better "ninja" as far as using a katana and being good at it?
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I'm wondering if a Fighter who wears light armor and can sneak would make a better "ninja" as far as using a katana and being good at it?
As with most things regarding adapting a character concept from a different media into Pathfinder2e rules, it depends a lot on the particulars of what you are trying to achieve.
If you want to play 'Batman', then you have to choose what that means mechanically. There are a lot of different aspects, and no one character is going to be able to meet them all at the same time while also being balanced against other characters available.
So what is meant by 'ninja'? Specifically.
Rogue is heavy on skills and good at precision damage with light weapons, but may not be able to use a Katana very well.
Swashbuckler is less heavy on skills than Rogue, but is sturdier and better able to stand toe-to-toe against enemies. They also do precision damage with light weapons and may not be able to do so with a Katana.
Fighter is much better with weapons and could handle a Katana easily, but is much lighter on skills. You can put the limited skill investment that they do have into stealth and infiltration abilities though.
Ranger is good with weapons and could handle a Katana. They are also good at picking a target and getting bonuses to attack that target. They can also do precision damage if that route is chosen. They do have a little bit more skill power than Fighter.
Magus is good with weapons including a Katana (some Hybrid Study choices are worse with 2-handed weapons though). They often have a better number of skills than Fighter because of the INT needed for spellcasting. Their skill budget can be spent on stealth and infiltration. They also have magic that they can use to augment their ninja flavor with.
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I'm using a Katana (Shizuru). So is that not any good then?
Mechanically Katanas are too close to rapiers. It's damage probably will be closer to d12 weapon when used with 2 hands or d8 when used with 1-hand. Just a bit weaker because deadly d8 doesn't changes the damage that much unless the enemy is some levels below or have an specially low AC (higher critical chance).
I'm wondering if a Fighter who wears light armor and can sneak would make a better "ninja" as far as using a katana and being good at it?
Ninjas doesn't really exists historically (they was samurais that does infiltration and assassination works but in general all that thing about organized ninjas was fantasy).
That said most of fantasy ninja is make about Ninja-tō that's basically a 60cm (24 inch) washizaki without curved blade. So a Wakizashi probably represents better a ninja weapon than a katana that is longer (including these short swords are developed to fight inside builds and as support weapons).
That said for a ninja felling a rogue with a washizaki probably is a better option because high damage is the last thing that a ninja is focused (yet it still have it due assasination so deadly is good representation). Their fantasy is more about infiltration.
An Avenger of Shiziru seems like a good choice for a Shinobi. It seems like a better base than fighter, as you're probably going to be pressed for skill trainings to cover all your infiltration skills.
The Katana is kind of the tricky part. Needing strength to attack means you're wanting almost every attribute. If your character didn't have features and archetypes tied to using Shozurur's favored weapon I'd suggest you use a shorter, faster blade that would be more practical in tight quarters and doesn't scream, "I'm a samurai in disguise!"
There is no "tight quarters" though as far as being able to use or not use a weapon in Pathfinder. At least not in PFS. Nor is there weapon speed. That's like a 2cd ed D&D thing. lol
I'm using a Katana (Shizuru). So is that not any good then?Mechanically Katanas are too close to rapiers. It's damage probably will be closer to d12 weapon when used with 2 hands or d8 when used with 1-hand. Just a bit weaker because deadly d8 doesn't changes the damage that much unless the enemy is some levels below or have an specially low AC (higher critical chance).
I'm wondering if a Fighter who wears light armor and can sneak would make a better "ninja" as far as using a katana and being good at it?Ninjas doesn't really exists historically (they was samurais that does infiltration and assassination works but in general all that thing about organized ninjas was fantasy).
That said most of fantasy ninja is make about Ninja-tō that's basically a 60cm (24 inch) washizaki without curved blade. So a Wakizashi probably represents better a ninja weapon than a katana that is longer (including these short swords are developed to fight inside builds and as support weapons).
That said for a ninja felling a rogue with a washizaki probably is a better option because high damage is the last thing that a ninja is focused (yet it still have it due assasination so deadly is good representation). Their fantasy is more about infiltration.
Katana does a d10 with two hands. Not d12. D8 deadly. Also has versatile so you can do Piercing and Slashing. Disagree on ninja not existing. More like it's not quite certain on what they were exactly. My belief is they were samurai class who did some sneaky things and were possibly farther away from Edo so they could get away with more.
The ninja-to didn't exist. Its a hollywood creation. Ninja could indeed be focused on high damage if their goal is to kill someone vs just infiltration. Katana also have shorter versions. Ko-Katana.
Katana does a d10 with two hands. Not d12. D8 deadly
Sorry I think I wasn't clear enough. When I say closer I'm talking about it being used with 2-hand it is a d10 deadly d8 what is closer to a d12 weapon in most DPRs.
Disagree on ninja not existing. More like it's not quite certain on what they were exactly. My belief is they were samurai class who did some sneaky things and were possibly farther away from Edo so they could get away with more.
Yes ninjas was "samurais who did some sneaky things" yet they was just some samurais who did some sneaky things. Most of its fantasy, specially combat oriented things doesn't really exists as well explained by Antony Cummins in his studies about ninja.
Yet we are talking about ninja fantasy here so I think that the ideal is around fantasy ninjas with ninjútsus and any other fantastical ninja things.
The ninja-to didn't exist. Its a hollywood creation. Ninja could indeed be focused on high damage if their goal is to kill someone vs just infiltration. Katana also have shorter versions. Ko-Katana.
No ninja-to wasn't a hollywood creation but we have its first photographic registry in a magazine called Ninjútsu published in 1956 in Japan not in America. It still not historical accurate because it isn't linked to medieval japan yet is also not an american invention.
Anyway backing to main point. If you use a Katana with Avenger the graphical the avg DPR will be pretty close to graphs that I posted due deadly d8 just a bit weaker due one size lower dice.
There is no "tight quarters" though as far as being able to use or not use a weapon in Pathfinder. At least not in PFS. Nor is there weapon speed. That's like a 2cd ed D&D thing. lol
Sorry, that was a flowerful way of saying that a subtle assassin or spy would be better served by a finesse weapon. I guess the last sentence where I was going to suggest a Thief rogue might suit a ninja better never got posted.
The errata where the avenger has to mark prey before sneak attacking with deity's weapon, kind of ruined the archetype for me. I don't think it's worth marking prey to get the damage. With thief you can dump str. With avenger you have to invest in strength if you want to use a non finesse weapon.
Well, only Thief has the ability to completely dump STR with no meaningful penalty to their damage. There are several other Rackets available for Rogue to choose from. It is best to compare Avenger to the standard case rather than a particular case that best suits your argument.
Ruffian Racket for example. They can also Sneak Attack with more than just Agile and Finesse weapons. They don't have an action cost needed in order to enable that. But their damage die size is limited. Similar to Avenger, they also don't have the ability to completely dump STR and in fact can choose STR to be their key Attribute.
For Avenger, there is no additional action cost needed if the weapon being used is Agile or Finesse.
The action cost is only needed to get the ability to Sneak Attack with a martial weapon with a base damage die size larger than d6.
It is also completely valid to play an Avenger that uses an Agile or Finesse weapon.
Yes ninjas was "samurais who did some sneaky things" yet they was just some samurais who did some sneaky things. Most of its fantasy, specially combat oriented things doesn't really exists as well explained by Antony Cummins in his studies about ninja.
Anthony Cummings is questionable as a source on Ninja/Shinobi though.
Does anyone have suggestions on PFS viable builds for my Avenger Rogue using a Katana to maximize damage? Feats? Enchants?
So, 1st level feats are pretty flexible. I might go with trap finder, but tumble behind, nimble dodge, and you're next! are all worth considering.
4th level if you want to dual wield, twin takedown is the obvious choice. If not, Dread Strike is on brand for an Avenger.
At 6th level, if you're regularly playing with offensively minded divine casters, Zealous Inevitably will make you their best friend (Do not expect to kill anything with the doomed effect. If it survived for four turns of you hitting it, it's almost certainly high enough level to trigger incapacitation). If not, Gang Up is fantastic.
At 8th level, Opportune Backstab is incredible for damage.
I can't think of any items that are specifically useful to an Avenger.
This is for Pathfinder Society play btw. So zero guarantees on who is playing and what they are playing.
Well I'm using two hands on my katana. No twin strike.
I'm honestly trying to create Rikimaru from Tenchu. He uses a Ninja-To but its not some tiny thing. He uses two hands on it all the time and it's a well made obviously magical sword with history behind it so I made it a katana.
Yeah I took nimble dodge for defense but tumble behind sounds good too. He doesn't have the CHA for you're next.
Opportune Backstab only works with weapons with backstab though? Katana doesn't have that or could it get it via a rune or somesuch?
Quickstrike would be awesome for the action tax but its 10.000 gold! I don't know if in PFS I could ever get that much since PFS caps out at lvl 13 and then that character is retired from play.
No, Opportune Backstab works with any weapon.
You don't need to be Red Mantis Assassin?
You don't need to be Red Mantis Assassin?
No, notice the Rogue tag. It's an 8th level rogue feat that Red Mantis Assassins can take at 10th level.
Cool. Sounds useful.
So I guess Pathfinder doesn't have feats like "power attack"? At least not for rogues. Fighter and Barbarian sound like they have something like that.
You can get power attack Vicious Swing and others 2-handed focused feats via Mauler archetype too. This way your rogue can get access to such feats.
You can getpower attackVicious Swing and others 2-handed focused feats via Mauler archetype too. This way your rogue can get access to such feats.
True, but for what Oni has in mind I don't think he'll be able to take a second archetype any time soon.
Anthony Cummings is questionable as a source on Ninja/Shinobi though.
Yes ninjas was "samurais who did some sneaky things" yet they was just some samurais who did some sneaky things. Most of its fantasy, specially combat oriented things doesn't really exists as well explained by Antony Cummins in his studies about ninja.
I agree, but he is still our best source at the moment. Anyway, I come back to the point that the idea is more fantasy-oriented (after all, we are talking about a fantasy game here).
My point was that you intended to make a character as close as possible to the fantasy ninja context. But from what you described, you want one who has specialized in katanas rather than the more "traditional" theme of using short swords.
At this point, it might actually be worth considering making one using the fighter itself. However, this character will lose a good part of the idea of the focus on stealth and skill monkey of a ninja and assassination represented by the Sneak Attack (although this can be partially compensated with the assassin archetype.
You can getTrue, but for what Oni has in mind I don't think he'll be able to take a second archetype any time soon.power attackVicious Swing and others 2-handed focused feats via Mauler archetype too. This way your rogue can get access to such feats.
That's true yet it still possible, the true problem IMO is that once the Avenger still is an archetype you are forced to the the archetype feats that are focused 2-weapons something that the OP doesn't want to focus.
Maybe an alternative could be use Multitalented to get Fighter dedication and the Vicious Swing through it. It still late but also still inside the expected levels of PFS games.