A paladin can lay hands on themselves as a swift action and on others as a standard action. Can he lay hands on himself as a standard acton?
Reasons to do so would be to smite and lay hands in the same round or even to lay hands twice.
No. Swift actions are very powerful, which is why the rules don't let you make substitutions like this.
No. Swift actions are very powerful, which is why the rules don't let you make substitutions like this.
But a paladin explicitly can use lay hands as a standard action, unlike the vast majority of other swift actions. In fact the default is a standard action with the special exception of self use being a swift action.
Using this ability is a standard action, unless the paladin targets herself, in which case it is a swift action.
Emphasis on "is"
Using LoH on someone else is a standard action.
Using LoH on himself is a swift action.
So RAW, no a Paladin can't use LoH on himself as a standard action.
If instead it would read "in which case he CAN use it as a swift action", then he could choose.
Some GMs might houserule in a way as above, that a Paladin might choose to use a standard action to LoH on himself instead of a swift, but not both in the same turn, but that would be up to the GM.
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The core rule book wasn’t written as legalistically as we have become used to. I’m pretty sure if this got an FAQ, the paladin could target himself as if he were an ally, so a standard action.
I have to congratulate Tottemas for finding a RAW method for allowing a swift action to be performed as a standard action. Not only does this allow lay on hands as a standard action on yourself it opens up a lot using a lot of other swift actions as a standard action. You could even use the finishing declaring a smite evil a the triggering action to allow you to perform a move action after both the smite evil and lay on hands have been completed.
RAW there is nothing that prevents this.
The problem with readying a swift action in this manner is that most GMs may not agree that the end of your turn counts as a triggering action.
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except for the whole "You can perform one swift action per turn without affecting your ability to perform other actions. In that regard, a swift action is like a free action. You can, however, perform only one single swift action per turn, regardless of what other actions you take. " part.
after you take a swift action, you could theoretically ready another swift action, but you can't actually perform said swift action.
The ready action lets you prepare to take an action later, after your turn is over but before your next one has begun.
Technically, you aren’t in a turn when you perform the ready action, so that limit doesn’t exactly apply. But it might apply in other less clear ways.
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you can ready a swift action with your standard action
Readying a swift action doesn't replace your swift with a standard. You are just setting a trigger on when you use your swift action.
I think the issue with performing a swift as a standard action is that a character could take two swift actions in the round, which would be OP. There is no rule that lets you take a swift action as a standard.
I have to congratulate Tottemas for finding a RAW method for allowing a swift action to be performed as a standard action.
No, they did not.
Readying a swift action means you use your standard action to set a trigger on when you use your swift action. The actions haven't changed.
I have to congratulate Tottemas for finding a RAW method for allowing a swift action to be performed as a standard action.No, they did not.
Readying a swift action means you use your standard action to set a trigger on when you use your swift action. The actions haven't changed.
While I agree that it doesn't change a swift action into a standard action, it would still allow you to spend a standard action to use another swift action.
Ready Action
"You can ready a standard action, a move action, a swift action, or a free action. To do so, specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it. Then, anytime before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition."
So swift actions can be readied.
Swift action
"You can, however, perform only one single swift action per turn, regardless of what other actions you take."
One swift action per turn, not per round.
So by readying a swift action, you don't even have to change it to a standard action, as it occurs on another turn.
Unlike a 5ft step, which can also be readied, but not if you have otherwise moved in that round and it prevents you from moving in the round that you take the readied 5ft-step.
Maybe rephrase the trigger to something like "as soon as the next character acts" instead of "as soon as my turn ends" to have a more legitimate trigger.
Sounds cheesy, but otherwise RAW it should work.
The ready action lets you prepare to take an action later, after your turn is over but before your next one has begun. Readying is a standard action. It does not provoke an attack of opportunity (though the action that you ready might do so).
Since a readied action takes place after your turn is over the rule of only being able to perform a single swift action in your turn is not being violated. Technically the two swift actions happen on different turns. This does prevent you for performing any other actions after you the swift action. You can of course perform other actions before you ready the swift action.
What reading an action allows you to do is to essentially break up your turn into two different turns. This is the only way it can work, because other than an immediate action you cannot perform any actions when it is not your turn.
I have to congratulate Tottemas for finding a RAW method for allowing a swift action to be performed as a standard action.No, they did not.
Readying a swift action means you use your standard action to set a trigger on when you use your swift action. The actions haven't changed.
That interpretation can't be right, because that would mean you also must use your standard action to ready another standard. But of course, you only have one standard action per round.
That interpretation can't be right
It is, though. Per the rules:
Ready
The ready action lets you prepare to take an action later, after your turn is over but before your next one has begun. Readying is a standard action. [emphasis mine] It does not provoke an attack of opportunity (though the action that you ready might do so).Readying an Action: You can ready a standard action, a move action, a swift action, or a free action.
This is a "specific overrides general" rule. Readying is a standard action, but it lets you ready another standard action. The catch being, if your trigger condition isn't met, you don't get to take it.
So, you can move (move action) and then ready (standard action) a standard action e.g. to attack or cast a spell. But you can't attack or cast a spell (standard action) and then ready (standard action) a move action, because you already took your standard action.
That interpretation can't be rightIt is, though. Per the rules:
This is a "specific overrides general" rule. Readying is a standard action, but it lets you ready another standard action. The catch being, if your trigger condition isn't met, you don't get to take it.Ready
The ready action lets you prepare to take an action later, after your turn is over but before your next one has begun. Readying is a standard action. [emphasis mine] It does not provoke an attack of opportunity (though the action that you ready might do so).Readying an Action: You can ready a standard action, a move action, a swift action, or a free action.
That's not what those rules say though, per my earlier argument. Readying is a standard action that triggers outside of your turn. Upon that trigger you may perform "a standard action, a move action, a swift action, or a free action". Saying that I need to take that action out of my previous turn is nonsensical, because it'd imply that I wouldn't have a standard action left to take after using it to ready the action.
While I agree that it doesn't change a swift action into a standard action, it would still allow you to spend a standard action to use another swift action.
The rules state you cannot take more than one swift action in a turn.
Swift Action: A swift action consumes a very small amount of time, but represents a larger expenditure of effort and energy than a free action. You can perform only a single swift action per turn.
Obviously, this is where the debate about "what constitutes a turn" comes in, and whether "ready action" cheese gets around the restrictions since it allows you to act out of turn. I am firmly in the camp that RAI is you only get one swift or immediate action from the start of your turn to the start of your next turn, no matter how the timing is altered.
YMMV based on your GM.
You use a standard action to break your turn into two turns. The second turn can only consist of a swift, move, standard or free action. This is why your initiative changes with a readied action. You still cannot do more in that round than you normally could if you did not use a readied action. Using a standard action to ready an action limits what can be done in the first turn.
The bolded section from the description of Swift Actions seems relevant.
A swift action consumes a very small amount of time, but represents a larger expenditure of effort than a free action. You can perform one swift action per turn without affecting your ability to perform other actions. In that regard, a swift action is like a free action. You can, however, perform only one single swift action per turn, regardless of what other actions you take. You can take a swift action anytime you would normally be allowed to take a free action. Swift actions usually involve spellcasting, activating a feat, or the activation of magic items.
That seems to imply that the rule about only a single swift action is not as absolute as it seems. If you can never perform more than one swift action in a turn it would not have mentioned without affecting your ability to perform other actions. The only way that sentence makes sense is if you can actually use another type of action to perform a swift action.
What you propose is rules cheese and an exploit based on ambiguity in RAW. If you are going to venture down that path, then use other rules to help guide you to RAI.
An immediate action is little more than a swift action taken out of turn, and if you take your immediate action, you can't take your swift action, and visa-versa.
Readying your swift to take place out of turn is indistinguishable from an immediate action.
If your GM allows this double-swift-in-a-turn interpretation, then, great. I would not.
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We had this exact same fight six months ago.
I also think it is a perfectly reasonable (and not at all unbalancing) house rule to allow players to take another swift action in place of their standard action. But not in place of a move.
To be fair, "You can perform only a single swift action per turn." was probably meant more as reminder text than some sort of hard limit. It was put there, because the previous sentence was comparing it so much to a free action, which can be taken multiple times a turn.
Also, Pathfinder is an exception based system. I think we can all agree that the corset of delicate moves would let you take more than 1 swift action in a round, so it's not unthinkable that a readied action could allow you to do the same thing.
For the duration of this spell, you gain an extra swift action you can use only during your turn.
This one is funny, because it presumes that you can already take swift actions outside of your turn.
We had this exact same fight six months ago.
** spoiler omitted **
I've been feeling the deja vu looking at this thread too :)
As I pointed out in the other thread
In a normal round, you can perform a standard action and a move action...
The rules also state you only get one standard action and one move action per turn. So for those arguing that you only get 1 swift per turn and thus can't ready a swift action (if you took a swift on your normal non-readied part of your turn), you need to explain how that is different for a standard action in which you also only get 1 per turn if you already used up your standard (as required by readying an action).
If you can't get 2 swifts (spread across your turn, and the after your turn is over part of your ready), you also can't get 2 standard actions (1 to ready the action, and another to do something with).
you need to explain how that is different for a standard action in which you also only get 1 per turn if you already used up your standard (as required by readying an action).
Again, specific overrides general. The rules for readying an action explicitly state you can ready a standard action.
But instead of thinking about it this way, think of readying as a way of delaying a pre-declared action so you can take it later, as a reaction to some event, with the risk being that if the triggering event doesn't happen, you lose the action entirely.
1. If you take a move and ready a standard, and the trigger is met, by the start of your next turn, you have: moved (move action), and taken your standard action out of turn (standard).
2. If you take a move and ready a move, and the trigger is met, then you have: moved (move action), and moved again out of turn (2nd move action)
Neither of these effectively break the rules around the action economy. You have done a standard and a move, or a double move.
If you take a swift and ready a swift, and the trigger is met, then by the start of your next turn you have done two swift actions.
What is more likely for RAI? That the intent is to:
1. Allow you to delay an action until some triggering event occurs, still effectively abiding by the restrictions on what actions you can take in a round.
2. Provide players with a loophole to allow them to double swift.
The following section is copied from the rules.
Ready
The ready action lets you prepare to take an action later, after your turn is over but before your next one has begun. Readying is a standard action. It does not provoke an attack of opportunity (though the action that you ready might do so).
The bolded part makes it clear that the readied action does not take place on your turn. Since your turn has already finished you are not performing more than one swift action in the same turn. The same thing applies to standard actions. The fact that if you take your readied action in the next round causes you to lose the rest of your actions for that round reinforces this.
The one thing I would say is that the triggering condition cannot be based solely on a game term. It has to be something the character (not the player) can perceive and understand. So, the end of my turn would not be a valid triggering condition.
A swift action not on your turn is indistinguishable from an immediate action. If you used your swift already, you can't take an immediate until the start of your next turn.
Again, we are in RAI territory. What is more likely? That the devs intended a double-swift loophole, or that what you describe is semantical rules cheese?
We're obviously not going to agree on this point, so I'll leave it there.
The original post was asking about ways to be able to smite evil and lay on hands at the same time. A better way to declare his smite evil before combat even begins. Obviously this does not work if the party is surprised or otherwise attacked with no warning, but it can be done in a lot of situations.
Smite evil requires the paladin to choose a target within sight. The need to call out the powers of good to aid him makes it kind of obvious what he is doing, but nothing prevents him from doing so out of combat. The fact that the smite remains in effect is dead or the paladin rests means it can be done before the paladin attacks. Smite evil is a limited resource so most of the time it is used against a really tough opponent not their minions. Declaring a smite evil is probably going to start combat but by that time it is already in effect.
The paladin can also use lay on hand on both himself and an ally in the same turn. It is only if he wants to use it twice on himself that it becomes a problem.
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Swapping a standard for a swift seems completely reasonable, so I wouldn't call it "rules cheese". It's probably just an oversight that we can't already do that. When swifts were first cooked up they were pretty minor convenience things, and there weren't many actions that used it.
But has anyone listed anything even close to overpowered they could do by losing their standard action to get a second swift?
you need to explain how that is different for a standard action in which you also only get 1 per turn if you already used up your standard (as required by readying an action).Again, specific overrides general. The rules for readying an action explicitly state you can ready a standard action.
That's odd. The rules also explicitly state you can ready a swift action.
If the rules are you get a move action on your turn (that is 1 move action on your turn). And you get 1 swift action on your turn. Why is it that a readied action lets you get 2 move actions, but not get 2 swift actions?
If getting 2 swifts breaks the other rules. Then the same logic must hold for getting 2 moves (or 2 standards).
As I grok do u pointed out
If you used your swift already, you can't take an immediate until the start of your next turn.
Is incorrect. Using an immediate action consumes your swift for your upcoming turn. Using a swift (on your turn) does not prevent you from using an immediate action after your turn is over. The reverse does not apply.
You cannot use another immediate action or a swift action until after your next turn if you have used an immediate action when it is not currently your turn (effectively, using an immediate action before your turn is equivalent to using your swift action for the coming turn).
If you want to argue that the swift action rules are more specific than the readied action rules, please answer these questions:
Is the 1 standard action per round rule a base rule or a specific rule?Is the 1 move action per round rule a base rule or a specific rule?
Is the 1 swift action per round rule a base rule or a specific rule?
Is the readied action rules letting you spend a standard action to ready a standard/move/swift/free action more general, or more specific than the above 3 rules?
Readying a swift action means you use your standard action to set a trigger on when you use your swift action. The actions haven't changed.
While people fall on different sides of the question, "Is readying to get an extra swift allowed?". No one seems to agree with your interpretation of "why" that is. You have a fundamentally different interpretation of that text. I assume at this stage you won't be convinced that you are wrong, but you should also realize that you aren't convincing anyone to your view either.
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Readying a swift action means you use your standard action to set a trigger on when you use your swift action. The actions haven't changed.While people fall on different sides of the question, "Is readying to get an extra swift allowed?". No one seems to agree with your interpretation of "why" that is. You have a fundamentally different interpretation of that text. I assume at this stage you won't be convinced that you are wrong, but you should also realize that you aren't convincing anyone to your view either.
That is because the rules are muddy. I am in the camp that "It is the continuation of your turn, so you can use only one swift action, either in the original turn or with the readied action." But no part of the rules says that.
There is, instead, a piece of the rules that shows what Paizo could have written if they wanted to clearly impose that limit:
You can take a 5-foot step as part of your readied action, but only if you don’t otherwise move any distance during the round.
Writing the same for a swift action wouldn't have been difficult. Maybe it was a never corrected oversight, but maybe trading a standard action for a swift action was an intended mechanic.
That is because the rules are muddy. I am in the camp that "It is the continuation of your turn, so you can use only one swift action, either in the original turn or with the readied action." But no part of the rules says that.
This part is pretty hard to justify as even just a difference of opinion on muddy rules, given:
The ready action lets you prepare to take an action later, after your turn is over but before your next one has begun.
That statement is not muddy at all.
A swift action not on your turn is indistinguishable from an immediate action. If you used your swift already, you can't take an immediate until the start of your next turn.
As others have said, this is incorrect. The reverse is true, using your immediate action prevents you from using a swift action on your next turn, but your immediate action is always available .
I would say that this has been answered for RAW: No you can't use LoH on yourself according to the rules as written.
However, I don't think I've ever seen anyone rule that way. For example, the Antipaladin's Touch of Corruption is a negative energy effect, and it's fairly common for Antipaladins to be undead and for them to use their Touch of Corruption on themselves as a swift action, despite the fact that Touch of Corruption doesn't have a clause about swift actions at all.
As Melkiador pointed out, this wasn't written as a legal document, it was written as a guide to help you understand what you can and can't do. From a player's perspective we tend to look at the rules as rigid and unchangeable unless told otherwise, but it can be helpful to try to look at this from a developer perspective to see what they were trying to convey.
Whichever side of the argument I think it's clear that they wanted it to be easier for a Paladin to use LoH on themselves than on others. A Paladin can, in fact use 2 LoH in a turn, 1 on themselves and 1 on someone else. There's no problem with using the ability twice in 1 round, and since using it on themself is easier, there is no reason it shouldn't be able to be used on themself for that second use. In fact, the HERO'S DEFIANCE spell would specifically allow a Paladin to target themself twice within 1 round , so clearly there is no problem with that either.
TLDR:
RAW: No you can't.
RAI: Yes you can.
RAF : I don't see any reason to disallow this. I doubt even PFS GMs would stop you doing this.
You came to the Rules forum so you get a Rules answer. But in actual play adhering this strictly to the words when even the devs themselves wouldn't seems counterproductive.
An immediate action counts as a swift, but the reverse is not true.
Using a swift (on your turn) does not prevent you from using an immediate action after your turn is over.
As others have said, this is incorrect. The reverse is true, using your immediate action prevents you from using a swift action on your next turn, but your immediate action is always available(unless something is preventing you from acting)
OK. I definitely misunderstood the rule here, and this does convince me there's more rules leeway in this edge case.
Something about getting two swifts in a turn still does not sit right with me, even if you are sacrificing a standard via a ready action to do it. It still feels too much like trading a standard for a swift and using loopholes to do it. But it's not as shaky of a loophole as I originally thought.
There are several things about readied actions that seem to be ignored. First of all, the readied action has to take place after your turn is over. Since the readied action interrupts the triggering action the triggering action cannot be your turn ending. If it is it is still your turn and the rule of only one swift action is still in effect. This means that the triggering action has to take place after your turn end. Since the triggering action is not happening in your turn it cannot be something that your character does. Technically you could use an immediate action as the triggering action, but that would prevent you from using a swift action until after your next turn, which would prevent you from performing the readied action. RAW talking is a free action and cannot be done when it is not your turn. As silly as that rule is this is one time, I would actually enforce it.
Another thing to keep in mind is that if the readied action occurs in the next round, you lose all other actions for that round. Since the triggering action is not under your control there is a very good possibility you are going to lose your next turn to perform the readied action. In this case you have traded away your entire turn for a swift action.
If you want to use smite evil in the same round as lay on hands use the readied action for lay on hands is not the way to do it. A better tactic would be to use a reach weapon or otherwise gain an AoO on the person attacking you. Use your swift action for lay on hands and use ready for smite evil with the triggering action of you attacking. When you make the AoO the readied smite evil will be triggered and you will get the smite evil on it.
You could set the trigger to "as soon anyone else does anything".
Well, the original request was "can a paladin lay hands on themselves as a standard action?", in which case a trigger of "when I get injured" would do.
The GM is the judge of what a legitimate triggering condition is. Personally, I would not accept anyone doing anything as a triggering condition. I would let the player know that I don’t like that trigger and give him a chance to change it. If he pushes the issue, I would rule that someone breathed after the paladin readied the action but before his turn ended so he loses the readied action. Mind you this would be after the player had been told no.
Being injured would be a legitimate trigger, but if that does not happen until the next round the paladin loses all other actions for that round. A better way to achieve that would be to memorize the spell Hero's Defiance. This is actually a great 1st level paladin spell.
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If he pushes the issue, I would rule that someone breathed after the paladin readied the action but before his turn ended so he loses the readied action. Mind you this would be after the player had been told no.
Readied actions don't work that way.
"Then, anytime before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition." Not "the first time that condition is fulfilled".
You aren't forced to react the first time a readied action is triggered. "When anyone does anything." is extremely generic and questionable, but "When someone acts." is acceptable and avoids the "trap" of using the game term "action".
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Note that if the "readied action" is a separate turn as someone argues, there is no particular need to ready a swift action. You ready a standard or move action, then you use the "new" swift action you get at the start of your turn in conjunction with your standard or move action. "
You can, however, perform only one single swift action per turn, regardless of what other actions you take. You can take a swift action anytime you would normally be allowed to take a free action.
If it isn't a new turn, the limitation "You can, however, perform only one single swift action per turn," is fully in effect. The Redy action says that you get to Ready a swift action, not that you get to perform a second Swit action.
To me, the RAI seems clear. The Developers have limited character (barring mythic abilities) to a single swift or immediate action from the end of their turn to the end of their next turn. The Ready action doesn't break that rule.
As was pointed out in an earlier post there is a difference between a turn and a round. A round is a a six second time frame. Each round can have many turns. A turn is the segment of the round that a particular creature acts in. Each creature has their own turn. The rules are state you can only take one swift action per turn, but there is no restriction on taking more than one swift action in a round. Using a readied action can allow you to act when it is another character turn. That other character's turn could be latter in the same round or before your turn in the next round.
As to the way a readied action works, I have already stated that as a GM I would not allow the anytime anyone does anything. If the player is still pushing it, he is in violation of rule 0. My response may be a bit harsh, but this is preventing the game from being brought to a halt by an argument.
As a GM I require the character readying an action to state a specific condition for the trigger. As the GM that is my right, if you want to do it differently in you game that is your business.
If it isn't a new turn, the limitation"You can, however, perform only one single swift action per turn,""In a normal round, you can perform ... a [one single] move action" is fully in effect. The Ready action says that you get to Ready aswiftmove action, not that you get to perform a secondSwiftmove action.
This still has not been addressed.
The text (RAW) is against you on this one either way you look at it.
If the readied action is still part of your turn, then you still don't get an extra move or swift actions above what is normally allowed during your turn (or readied actions are specific > general and allow either a second move or second swift during your turn).
If the readied action takes place outside of your turn (which is what the readied action rules actually say), then the limit of one move or one swift during your turn does not apply - because the readied action is not taking place during your turn.
Man, this thread got crazy.
I feel like only an insanely strict GM would interpret the rules of Lay On Hands as saying that the paladin can only use it on themselves as a swift action, precluding them from using it as a standard action as they would on anyone else.
Swift actions are basically free actions, with the restriction that they can only be performed once per round. The idea of allowing paladins to LOH as a swift action was/is supposed to be benefit to the character, so they spend less combat actions doing it.
To read the rules of LOH and say "The Paladin can never LOH themselves as a standard action" just screams to me of someone looking for ways to screw over players.