Given that the 8 h.p. classes mostly have a martial build option (or faux one w/ Kineticist or proxy one via Eidelon), I thought I'd speculate re: Necromancers.
The Necromancer has two feats that are among the most praised aspects of the class: Reaper's Weapon Familiarity (2) and Osteo Armaments (8). Both of them piqued my interest too, except what build are they designed for? Are these feats like Witch's Armaments; required options for completeness of the trope, but seldom if ever chosen? Or are they meant to be used? To actually hit anything, you'd need a +3 Str (w/ Finesse weapons doing too little damage IMO to make this worthwhile). Yet that's alongside a +4 Int if you want to make use of the other feats, and you'd likely die as well as just ruin your MAP since a baseline Thrall will have better attacks, cost no gold, and operate at a modest range. There's no point.
So my initial purpose with this thread was to address the conflict between having these two interesting feats, yet them being MAD & MAP dysfunctional (except maybe via MCD or a "death guy martial" Archetype). To survive in melee, you kinda need better stats, and that'd require weakening one's best attack, a.k.a. one's otherwise all-important Int). One can work around a low casting stat w/ Force Barrage, Soothe, & buffs, and several of the other 8 h.p. classes can make their casting stat secondary. But so much of the Necro's chassis involves Focus Spells w/ Int-based attacks/saves. Much better to build with a different chassis, I guess.
Except then for completeness, while typing this I checked the feats to see what other martial ones might sadden people and it surprised me; there's a nearly complete thread of feats that ignore Int: Body Shield (4), Reclaim Power (6), Lifesense (10), Become as Spirit (12) or Reinforced Skeleton (12), and Bind Heroic Spirit (18) (which I'd thought was terrible, but that's from a typical Necro's POV). That's a lot. Did Paizo plant a hidden build in the playtest that focuses on using Thralls as flankers, walls, and grist to keep oneself alive in the heart of melee (or perhaps not the heart, more like an arm)? Hmm.
So while there might be a complaint to lodge, I have to wonder if Paizo's addressed it already. Those feats make a melee Necromancer resilient. One could make a sturdy Dwarf +3/+2/+2/+1/+2/-1 or a Lizardfolk w/ +3/+2/+2/+0/+2/+0, maybe a Leshy even for extra oddness. Sure they won't excel like a dedicated martial, but they're also filling the battlefield with flanking buddies and have utility from their spells.
Other than filling in the high-level gaps in feats, what else would a Necro need to thrive in melee? Has anyone already noticed this and playtested a low-Int melee Necro?
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This is for sure interesting.
Just as a side note: I think a lot of caster builds tend to "leave money on the table" by not even bothering to buy a weapon. Because now and then, you have some actions you can't really properly spend. It might be a Hast action that can only be spent on a Stride or Strike.
Yeah, a caster might not be the primary target of Haste. But at some point the R7 Haste comes out for the whole party. And there's money on the table. And at level ~13, a +1 striking returning thrown weapon costs peanuts. Sure, it's only a chance at minor damage, but it's a cheap bonus.
So that's also something to consider when evaluating these kinda weapon feats.
With the Sure Strike nerf maybe a weapon would not be that terrible!
There is a point to melee necromancer: you want to be a death knight AND have the thrall mechanic be your defining feature. Not optimal, but plenty of casters can get away with a +3 martial stat (though I don't like banging my head trying to do it with the 6hp cloth casters). Hopefully bonespear becomes a dex save but that and melee stuff being a little high lvl are the only problems I have with it. Thralls using your map is fine bc, if you're a death knight, your thralls should just be bopping on turns you wanted to cast spells and drop bodies on the board. More martial synergy would be great, but I don't think the death knight approach with the class as given currently is so suboptimal that it's bad; a few armor general feats and you're off to the races. Also, barring martials multi classing into wisdom casters or vice versa, crossing the lane into the other camps niche necessitates dumping a save stat to get what you want. Nature of the beast in 2e; something to think about when the devs design 3e, but not something I care too terribly much about right now. Want a multipurpose PC be a little shakier on the saves (not a bad trade in my view). My player in my starfinder game is tanking their wisdom to play test a death knight necromancer without affecting their spell DCs
I don't see how a melee Necromancer is any more MAD than any of the martials with mental key attributes?
I'm playing a Goblin Inventor and started with +3 Str, +1 Dex, +1 Con, +4 Int, +0 Wis and -1 Cha. (She was created before the voluntary flaw rules were changed.) And I'm doing just fine with my 8 HP per level. I'm also playing alongside a Thaumaturge who started with +3 Str and +4 Cha and also works perfectly fine.
The necro is even on the high end of caster saving throw progression. Still lower than a martial of course, but that's the price you pay for magic.
The one thing I would like to see for the melee Necromancer is medium armor. Preferable as a baseline. If druids and animists can have it, so can the Necromancer. Alternatively, I could live with a subclass that gets Armor Proficiency as their free general feat.
Reaper's Weapon Familiarity (which desperately needs a buff mechanically, but its mere existance is amazing!) is all about grabbing the biggest, meanest blade you can find, so it seems quite obvious that melee Necro is supposed to be strength-based. And that's just impossible to pull off in light armor unless you want to dump your intelligence which doesn't seem smart (pun intended). So as it stands right now, any melee Necromancer will either have to be Human or face quite a struggle at the first levels before he can pick up Medium Armor Proficiency in some way.
Martial Necromancer Class Archetype - Graveknight. If the Battle Harbinger can do it Necvromancer can also you trade spells for martial capabilities and become bonded, not so bad.
I don't see how a melee Necromancer is any more MAD than any of the martials with mental key attributes?
I'm playing a Goblin Inventor and started with +3 Str, +1 Dex, +1 Con, +4 Int, +0 Wis and -1 Cha. (She was created before the voluntary flaw rules were changed.) And I'm doing just fine with my 8 HP per level. I'm also playing alongside a Thaumaturge who started with +3 Str and +4 Cha and also works perfectly fine.
The necro is even on the high end of caster saving throw progression. Still lower than a martial of course, but that's the price you pay for magic.
The one thing I would like to see for the melee Necromancer is medium armor. Preferable as a baseline. If druids and animists can have it, so can the Necromancer. Alternatively, I could live with a subclass that gets Armor Proficiency as their free general feat.
Reaper's Weapon Familiarity (which desperately needs a buff mechanically, but its mere existance is amazing!) is all about grabbing the biggest, meanest blade you can find, so it seems quite obvious that melee Necro is supposed to be strength-based. And that's just impossible to pull off in light armor unless you want to dump your intelligence which doesn't seem smart (pun intended). So as it stands right now, any melee Necromancer will either have to be Human or face quite a struggle at the first levels before he can pick up Medium Armor Proficiency in some way.
I agree but partially. A melee martial necromancer still lacks the martial necromancer progression. Bind Heroic Spirit may solve this but really needs to be rewritten to be progressive like Runic Weapon to work. You will still behind the martials with mental key attributes once the you need to waste some actions and focus spells to prepare yourself to melee encounter (what is fair IMO once that you are a full caster and this is similar to an druid using battle form to go to melee but with a more casting flexibility). But without a fix in Bind Heroic Spirit you will be restricted to be pretty subpar during mid-levels.
Martial Necromancer Class Archetype - Graveknight. If the Battle Harbinger can do it Necvromancer can also you trade spells for martial capabilities and become bonded, not so bad.
The necro class really does seem like it could benefit from some kind of war priest/battle harbinger class archetype for a death knight sort of thing but also one for a undead companion type build along the lines of druids with their pet option.
I think a lot of necros would love an option to gain a undead companion either so they have one main pet to go along with all the random thrall summoning.
I think the war priest model should work pretty fine. Fighty enough to justify being in melee give them better armor probably medium at the cost of some casting potency. Honestly be neat if they had access to a skeletal horse companion so you could be a necro night on a skeleton mount. Your spell casting is going to be less powerful but between your melee and your mount it likely would be fine without being OP. With probably capping out at master spell casting they gain thrall generation at a slower rate and capping out with less per cast than a normal necro.
Well, Occult gives you access to heroism, so if you were to prebuff:
- A level 1-9 necromancer (starting with 16 STR) would be 1 point behind regular non-fightery martials.
- A level 10 necromancer would be 2 points behind since others get 20 STR.
- A level 11-12 necromancer with 6th level heroism would actually be 1 point ahead.
- At lvl 13-14, it's back to 1 point behind.
- At lvl 15-16, same attack bonus.
- At lvl 17+, you're 1 point ahead (and at lvl 18, you have Bind Heroic Spirit to get it more easily).
Of course, that assumes you have time to cast heroism, but since it's a 10mn spell, it's easier than some other options. It also wastes a valuable lvl 3/6/9 slot. And it doesn't take into account that other martials too can get status bonus (from a bard, or you could simply cast heroism on them instead of you). But it's doable.
There are some things and features who at least help a bit this kind of build. Apart from those already mentioned:
1) You can create a thrall so you always have flanking. That helps alleviate your lower to-hit somehow. Of course, most martials will try to get their flanking bonus as well, but yours is always here provided you use an action. Just don't attack with your thrall so you don't screw up your MAP.
2) Since you already created a thrall next to the opponent, either he's swinging at him (and loses his highest attack) or he targets you and you can use Body Shield for a +2 and +lvl resistance as a reaction. Not too shabby.
3) Draining strike is promising but could get a buff, like maybe go to 2d4/thrall at level 11 and 3d4/thrall at level 17 - or simply allow you to pop more thralls. But then maybe it's too much, I didn't run the numbers.
4) In a fighting situation, Reclaim Power is a letdown since Muscle Barrier looks so much better. You destroy one thrall to get +10 temp hp/level, while RP needs you to destroy X thralls (max 5) for +10 healing/thrall. Healing is usually better than temp hp (though temp can be precast) but it's still weaker. The condition remover is ok, though.
5) Reinforced Skeleton gives you resistance of half your level to either slash or pierce, while Vital Conduit gives you +1hp/level and almost free sickened every round.
So, yeah, if you have all the time in the world to prebuff, you can come as the GRIM REAPER OF EVIL REAPING DOOM:
GRIM REAPER (level 20)
STR 20 (22 with Apex because why not).
HP: D9 (D8+1/level)
Temp HP: 90
Prebuff: Bind Heroic Spirit or Heroism (lvl 9)/Ectoplasmic Aura , Premonition, Disappearance, Spell Turning....
Weapon: +3 major striking greatsword with greater decay rune
And you also have Desperate Revival 1x/day.
Well, that won't happen in real play, of course - but that's still fun ^^
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I agree but partially. A melee martial necromancer still lacks the martial necromancer progression.
Oh, I didn't mean the Necromancer is good in melee. I just don't think MADness is the thing holding him back.
Ideas above (apologies if forgot something):
-Medium armor option
-Better Reaper's Armaments
-Scaling Bind Heroic Spirit (to access earlier)
-Major subclass like Warpriest
I was considering the medium armor too, and how there could be a 4th type of Necromancer that gets "Osteo Armor" or shell; something similar to the 8th level feat for armaments. That AC &/or less reliance on Dex would help early levels, and bone armor looks so cinematic. I could see several ways to implement this, but I'd prefer it advance to heavy armor at say 5th and carry the same Runes as your underlying armor/outfit. Kineticists have abilities with similar strength (and those would be easy enough to pick up at 4th via MCD so it's in competition).
Reaper's Armaments mirrors common Ancestry feats, meaning that as a class feat it should be improved, at the minimum gaining Critical Specialization effects. Maybe +1 void/cold/spirit damage?
I also dislike that it competes w/ Muscle Barrier, meaning it simply is better to gain one's weapon via their Ancestry instead.
Bind Heroic Spirit: yeah, making a Thrall w/ a successful Strike seems modest enough to gain earlier, especially given the amount of investment to build for actually striking. The +3 could be scaled back say to +1/6 levels. Still iffy offensively, but the save boost helps patch a hole. Trick here is we likely don't want martials to gain access to it.
Another idea for improvement would be to Osteo Armaments, since odds are a Str/melee Necromancer will want to purchase a better weapon than that, making the feat more for a backup or tricky weapon (in which cases it's excellent). Maybe keep the feat as is for the baseline with the ability to mimic the Runes on one's Handwraps (w/ the addition of Decaying still available).
Maybe a feat with +1 void/cold/spirit damage damage per nearby Thrall? (how near? adjacent to self? to enemy? who knows.) With a max bonus based on level whatever brings them up to the appropriate DPR. Perhaps incorporate it into Bind Heroic Spirit, which seems a cool flavor at first look.
I hadn't considered such a drastic option like Warpriest, but yeah, trade off that spellcasting proficiency if it's secondary to gain some reaping ability. Perfectly viable IMO. It could incorporate some of the weapon & armor ideas above.
(And I like Reaper as a name. Harvester? Hmm.)
If room opens up in the feat chain, I'd like to see something like a tandem strike w/ one's Thrall where you use the same MAP (counts as two for later, etc.. Whether you create a Thrall simultaneously or use (perhaps destroy) an existing one would be a question. It could be two feats, where the first is with an existing Thrall and the second feat creates one + some other effect like combine damage or Frightened 1 etc.
Bind Heroic Spirit: yeah, making a Thrall w/ a successful Strike seems modest enough to gain earlier, especially given the amount of investment to build for actually striking. The +3 could be scaled back say to +1/6 levels. Still iffy offensively, but the save boost helps patch a hole. Trick here is we likely don't want martials to gain access to it.
It could be a lvl 12 feat instead of start from lower levels allowing it to be accessible via MC archetype (starting with +2 and heightening to +3 at rank 9). During lower levels Bless would be enough to deal with the +1 status bonus. It's a bit harder to keep in earlier levels (1-4) but in these levels the casters proficiency and martials proficiency are basically the same (non-metal martials only wins due KAS) starting from level 5 you probably have enough gold to habe some of them as scrolls.
Once that the idea is not to make a martial necromancer but a necromancer that can fight with weapons at melee without be subpar this could be good enough IMO.
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I'll be honest, I'd rather see Reaper's Weapon Familiarity (2) and Osteo Armaments (8) apply to thralls instead, allowing you to summon thralls with greatswords, scythes, and axes and then upgrade them to +1-+3 striking ones. then we wouldn't need to bother with trying to melee with the necromancer themselves.
Bind Heroic Spirit: yeah, making a Thrall w/ a successful Strike seems modest enough to gain earlier, especially given the amount of investment to build for actually striking. The +3 could be scaled back say to +1/6 levels. Still iffy offensively, but the save boost helps patch a hole. Trick here is we likely don't want martials to gain access to it.It could be a lvl 12 feat instead of start from lower levels allowing it to be accessible via MC archetype (starting with +2 and heightening to +3 at rank 9).
I don't thin level 12 is necessary. They could just add some class feature that's unavailable for the Archetype as a prerequisite. Something like Grim Wards or Inevitable Return. It would hardly be the first class feat with a prerequisite that the class itself will always fulfill.
The problem of add it as a class feature instead of feat is that it will be accounted as class power not as class option.
It's like warpriests and summoners. Be able to draw a weapon a fight alongside other martials means that the designers needed to take down the legendary spellcasting proficiency to balance.
Having the status bonus as a feat helps to justify that the class don't need to be balanced to compensate the flexibility because you are already paying it with a feat slot + spell slot to do this.
I don't thin level 12 is necessary. They could just add some class feature that's unavailable for the Archetype as a prerequisite. Something like Grim Wards or Inevitable Return. It would hardly be the first class feat with a prerequisite that the class itself will always fulfill.Bind Heroic Spirit: yeah, making a Thrall w/ a successful Strike seems modest enough to gain earlier, especially given the amount of investment to build for actually striking. The +3 could be scaled back say to +1/6 levels. Still iffy offensively, but the save boost helps patch a hole. Trick here is we likely don't want martials to gain access to it.It could be a lvl 12 feat instead of start from lower levels allowing it to be accessible via MC archetype (starting with +2 and heightening to +3 at rank 9).
Yeah, this occurred to me later, and as suggested above, maybe even tie it into a new semi-martial subclass since it's not that useful for standard necromancers (who'd likely prefer to use the Focus Point & actions to blow up a Thrall or something). I have no idea how something like that appeared at 18th level, maybe because it makes Thralls/saves actions? (or 1/4 of an action since by it's 4 Thralls at a time at that level).
The problem of add it as a class feature instead of feat is that it will be accounted as class power not as class option.
You misread my post. I didn't suggest turning it into a class feature. Just to add a necromancer-exclusive class feature as a prerequisite for the feat. Simulat to how many of the heal/harm-related spellshapes of the cleric require you to have the divine font feature and as such are unavailable from the cleric archetype.