I apologize if my tone seemed patronizing, that wasn’t my intention. Having GMed on the boards in the past and being forced to stop because it’s so much work (and can be terribly stressful), I feel protective (perhaps overly so) of the few GMs who are stepping up (especially for a game at this level which is way more work than a low level one).
While in no way polished, Bolvar's profile is an attempt to keep within the boundaries set while using the rules provided.
Blacksmith + Sphere Cleric. Only took life spheres (quickly threw it together). Character uses one gauntlet to attack and a second gauntlet as a shield, while wearing plate armor.
To Hit Benchmark +34 (Bolvar +36 / +30)
AC Benchmark 43 (Bolvar AC 44)
Saves Benchmark 25 (Bolvar Con 27 / Ref 25 / Will 25)
Example Attack
So as a lvl 20 Gestalt, "only" about 100 damage per round. But each hit can debuff the enemy (entangle, sicken, confuse or make them incapable of healing) or can dispel beneficial magic.
Anyways...given all of the crazy powerful things available to us, this was my attempt to put together a character that more or less meets the benchmarks while still being thematically able to do what he should do.
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Have to say Andrew has shown how 3PP stuff is way broken using age and capstone maxed out a pc with Cha 54, then raps the Bonus into AC. Saves to Skills, and so on. I made a Legendary Investigator who is meant to be a master of skills, yet Andrew got ALL Kn skills at +50 and has AC70 for you fighter out there. Like I said, Epic goes WAY out of balance once you have the fav 3pp build you want to show off.
So ye, we have to limit ourselves AND outline rules to make this do-able in my view. Or we will just be showing off our unplayable builts to each other hehe. Well you get the idea.
Have to say Andrew has shown how 3PP stuff is way broken using age and capstone maxed out a pc with Cha 54, then raps the Bonus into AC. Saves to Skills, and so on. I made a Legendary Investigator who is meant to be a master of skills, yet Andrew got ALL Kn skills at +50 and has AC70 for you fighter out there. Like I said, Epic goes WAY out of balance once you have the fav 3pp build you want to show off.
So ye, we have to limit ourselves AND outline rules to make this do-able in my view. Or we will just be showing off our unplayable builts to each other hehe. Well you get the idea.
How I feel looking at his character
That said, it is really enjoyable seeing how different people can shatter the game given the right combinations. It's what makes Pathfinder (and the spinoff systems) so much more fun for me than 5e. Using the same build rules, there can be such a vast difference in power.
Voice, how much do our characters know about what we’re up against? Do we just bumble into a dungeon, or are we a strike force sent there to take out a known threat, etc?
So many of us are making healers! I guess the GM really emphasized how deadly this adventure is? Or maybe it's because it's a useful thing to do after combat so that our characters can focus on dealing more damage during it?
I'm still working on Arykiel with desperate optimism. Fortunately, her numbers aren't too off from the benchmark numbers. Chalk that up to kineticists being kind of lower-tier, I guess.
You want silly pc,
The Sapphire Light
Form one of Voices other games.
Epic Clever Godling{L30} - Psion - Ascendant {L20} - Epic Leader L10 - Mythic Overmind/Champion/Genius T10 [NO ALINMENT]
RACE ELAN Incorporeal(Ex)
A PC with 9 level 26 Cohorts and a Million follower Army, She is God dess with her own faith. That is how silly you can get, with the right set of mad rules.
Certainly interested, build ideas pending rules changes. Likely something to do with the shifter, should Spheres still be available. Could certainly find something else should they not, so I'll hold off n planning until the rules are finalized.
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I very much appreciate everybody's willingness to help out, and try to come up with suggestions on how best to work within my guidelines.
Definite changes:
ABP is still allowed, but no legendary gifts.
WBL = 1/2, like normal for ABP. Ie, 440k.
Normal 30 point buy.
Races: All non monstrous(so like before), no doubling of stat, still no penalty. Tentative change: Thoughts on 15 RP to boost the race, but can't spend on ability scores?
Classes: Still gestalt. I would like to keep 3pp, but I realize they can be problematic. My hope is that with the other reductions, they won't be as bad.
Normal ability score increases as you level, including the normal mythic stat bonuses.
I think the natural armor bonus stacking of animal companions is fine. Worst case, you end up having to drop +10(the bonus a familiar gets), which shouldn't require too much of an overall rework.
Let me know what ya'll think of these changes.
Slight spoiler:
You will be told what's going on at the beginning of the adventure, and you'll have a bit of time to prepare.
I also plan on a 'test' encounter or two before the actual game starts. Was gonna do that even before the discussion of changes started.
How will this work with ABP?
Smith’s Masterpiece: At 20th level the blacksmith reaches the pinnacle of his craft. Throughout his career, the blacksmith has collected and hoarded special materials, crafting secrets, and scraps of ancient rituals, all in preparation for his ultimate life’s work. The blacksmith crafts a single magic armor, weapon, or shield of his choice, imbuing it with power beyond what any normal piece of equipment can contain. The crafted item has a +5 enhancement bonus, and the smith may choose up to +8 effective enhancement bonus’ worth of special abilities to apply to this piece of equipment; once chosen, these enhancements cannot be changed. This ability supersedes the normal restriction preventing equipment from exceeding a total enhancement bonus of +10 including class abilities. As long as the blacksmith and his masterpiece are on the same plane, the blacksmith can recall the masterpiece to himself with 1 minute of concentration, even if it is currently in another creature’s possession.
Would this allow for one gauntlet with a +5 weapon enchantment (ABP) and a second which is the above class capstone masterpiece?
I really hope the move is finished soon so I can work on my character and not just use my phone
Sounds good to me. Not a very difficult change, seems like it mostly would affect our ability scores.
Does the benchmark data account for mythic? I doubt it does. We should probably figure out what the numbers would look like for level 21 to account for that first tier if we're balancing based on that.
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ABP is still allowed, but no legendary gifts.
WBL = 1/2, like normal for ABP. Ie, 440k.
Would you consider just banning the option to boost stats with inherit bonus?
I believe the options to have a +6 to all physical stats as an example, or at least the bonus to armor/shield/weapon(s) are important and might leave us feeling under geared.
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Another suggestion perhaps would be to get rid of APB altogether. As it stands, martials don't like it because they are getting underleveled gear, while spellcasters don't care for gear, but still have them. No ABP also means less work to balance encounters as I believe the module doesn't use it.
How about 3pp only on one side of the gestalt? That limits the amount of hot melty cheese-on-cheese action we can get. The other side must be a paizo class.
I'm also okay with dumping ABP. While it's useful, it's inflexible for people who might want to go a different way.
Cool Voice, will alter Fallen to fit new rules.
Still going with Investigator/Psion as she will have skills and abilities others won't have.
So many of us are making healers! I guess the GM really emphasized how deadly this adventure is? Or maybe it's because it's a useful thing to do after combat so that our characters can focus on dealing more damage during it?
I'm still working on Arykiel with desperate optimism. Fortunately, her numbers aren't too off from the benchmark numbers. Chalk that up to kineticists being kind of lower-tier, I guess.
I agree that there are too many healers. And it really isn't where I wanted to take Bolvar. So I'm switching cleric to Battle Host Occultist. I want his character focus to be on being a Blacksmith. And a cleric casting spells left and right isn't that.
Plus....
Right Gauntlet (for attacking): Masterpiece Capstone.
Left Gauntlet (for defending): Mythic Legendary Item.
Plate Armor: Panoply Bond from Battle Host.
The classes end up working together, in that they are all about arms and armor. It just means that I need to avoid the Transmutation Implement, as ABP means that most of it won't work.
Anyways, no need to worry at least from this end of having too many healers.
VoA, if my character could afford The Perfect Golden Lute, how much would it be for my character to own?
My character is self buffer and high single attack damage
Cavalier/magus
I think 3pp is blamed for a lot of unbalance, but at level 20, the biggest source of unbalance is 1pp 9th level spellcasters. Someone already posted an Oracle build. Ravener Hunter is a 1pp Inquisitor archetype.
At the moment, I was working on a Magus / Swashbuckler build. But I'll have to make some changes with the revised rules etc. Probably best to hold off for a bit until they're finalized.
I still want to play a Draconic Exemplar Taninim, though I’ll have to duck out shy of 20 to avoid being Colossal*, I guess (or maybe take one of the alternate capstones?), but I might also look into a mage hunter build of some sort Dwarf Barbarian/Inquisitor(Spellbeaker) comes to mind.
*Though casting Giant Form and the like in order to shrink myself enough to fit through tunnels would be absolutely hilarious.
This is my Level 20 single class Fighter build using only 1pp materials, and he completely decimates the table. Dude was built primarily to take on the Greater Beastmass (including level 30 threats like Cthulu).
His AC is a little subpar, but he can still reach the blue AC benchmark with just Shapechange (whose bonuses are too variable to be included in the sheet) and Fighting Defensively (since he more than has the attack bonus to spare).
As strong as he is, I still consider him massively weaker than my level 19 Mage, an Exploiter Pact Wizard with a dip in Crossblooded Sorcerer.
The Mage has lower numbers than the Fighter, but a vast amount of shenanigans and a set of powerful minions. Originally, the build abused possession shenanigans to keep the minions forever, but this version is actually the slightly nerfed version that doesn't employ that.
Long story short, numbers mean relatively little when you have access to various one-shot ability combos that completely trivialize encounters without exceedingly specific counters to each combo. Quite frankly, 3pp material gives more widespread access to a number of these counters and arguably aids late game balance rather than destroys it.
For example, I could Blood Money and cast Limited Wish to copy Geas/Quest, ignoring it's 10 minute cast time. In an instant, anyone not wearing Mind-Buttressing armor, immune to compulsion, or immune to curses, is automatically taken control over. No Save.
Or I could cast Time Stop, litter the ground next to my opponent with countless Explosive Runes (they literally last forever and have no/trivial cost), and then summon a monster capable of Greater Dispel Magic but with CL too low to beat yours. On a failed area dispel check, all Explosive Runes in the area go off, anyone within 10 ft of the rune gets no save, so unless you have the ability to move as an immediate action... GG.
Alternatively, there's something as simple as casting a Quickened Mass Debilitating Pain, followed by a Polar Midnight. Even if you make your save vs Debilitating Pain, you're still Dazed for one round. And if you don't move from your square while under the effects of Polar Midnight, you automatically become transmuted to ice and die. No Save. So unless you are immune to compulsions or pain effects or Daze, it's pretty much GG.
None of this gives a damn what my numbers are. Hence why Wizards and the like rule high level play. 3pp at least opens up some measure of counterplay, IMHO.
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I think that the rule of thumb here is this:
The GM has given us a baseline. For Martials, try to not go too far above these numbers. That's awesome! It tells us more or less where we should be. And we can go from there is fixing things to make sure that we don't blow past it.
Now, for casters...we really can't do that. Instead, the question becomes "How far should I go to not break things?" And "If the GM is telling fighters that they shouldn't go crazy, and my wizard is by himself better than a fighter power wise, then I should really hold myself back too." IE: "I'm not going to cast quickened mass debilitating pain."
Here you go, expanded out to "Level" 30, just scroll down
Expanded Bench Pressing.I put quotes around the "Level", because really, that's the expected average monster CR, not the character level... Also, this does not account for Mythic, as the base data is the normal monster creation table.
Thanks! :)
I made all the proposed changes to Arykiel, but I feel like since we're using ABP, we should use all of it. The gifts basically just take the place of buying a manual or casting wish to boost stats, and ABP is supposed to remove "must-buy" mechanical things to allow more interesting choices.
For the purposes of the Magus / Swashbuckler that I'm building, I think replacing Kensai with the Arcane Weaponeer archetype from Spheres of Power will probably be enough to reign my character's AC to Bench Pressing levels.
But, I would prefer if I don't have to adjust the stats, so I will also advocate for use of the Legendary Gifts. Cuz the alternative to that is just... casting the Wish spell, whether by one's self or by Planar Binding genies.
And quite frankly, planar binding and the like is probably the top of the list of things to ban from a caster perspective, if balance is the goal.
Notably though, I don't think Arcane Weaponeer Magus will work with Legendary Magus, and I don't think Cutting Blur Swashbuckler will work with Legendary Swashbuckler. I hope that's not a problem.
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My Legendary Slinger/legendary Fighter gets 31 feats under this chrunch, now do I go Dwarf or human?
While dwarf is *always* the right choice..I think you might need the bonus feat.
I know I was pretty outspoken about just accepting the build rules (and I will, whatever they turn out to be), but it feels worth reiterating what eriktd said- eliminating legendary gifts won’t stop people from getting inherent bonuses, it will just force them to use wishes to get them. If you (GM) are still worried about stats getting too high after all the other changes, you might be better off leaving ABP as is and just giving on benchmark to stay at/under for attributes too?
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My original intent on not allowing L. Gifts, is that you could still use Wishes/Tomes to get an inherent bonus to stat. **However** you would need to pay 125,000g for 5 wishes or 137,500g, for a tome if you wanted +5. Which is about 1/4th your starting gold.
I'll keep thinking about this and try to get a decision made asap. However, do remember that we're not starting till after the new year, so while I understand ya'll are hype and excited, we still have a bit of time.
Now for some questions/further clarifications:
1) We're gonna ditch free race feats, and their mythic counterparts.
2) Background feat is still allowed. Remember, no combat or metamagic. Anything else should be fine, but I do have final say.
3) The idea of boosting a race by 15 RP would be tempered by not being able to buy further bonuses to ability scores. So, if you're an Elf, you only get +2 Dex, +2 Int.
This is still under consideration.
4) 'Magic items' from class features still function and work normally with ABP.
I found a really nice image of FALLEN my pc offering
And she looks like that, no weapons not Armor, just a nobles clothing and a long black coat. No harm at all to anyone.
But then she looks at you, SHE LOOKS AT YOU, and somehow your may not be that sore anymore she is as harmless as she looks. You may want to break eye contact with her, with a possible uneasy feeling something is very very off.
Hehe
I very much appreciate everybody's willingness to help out, and try to come up with suggestions on how best to work within my guidelines.
Definite changes:
ABP is still allowed, but no legendary gifts.
WBL = 1/2, like normal for ABP. Ie, 440k.
Normal 30 point buy.
Races: All non monstrous(so like before), no doubling of stat, still no penalty. Tentative change: Thoughts on 15 RP to boost the race, but can't spend on ability scores?
Classes: Still gestalt. I would like to keep 3pp, but I realize they can be problematic. My hope is that with the other reductions, they won't be as bad.
Normal ability score increases as you level, including the normal mythic stat bonuses.
I think the natural armor bonus stacking of animal companions is fine. Worst case, you end up having to drop +10(the bonus a familiar gets), which shouldn't require too much of an overall rework.Let me know what ya'll think of these changes.
I think these seem like all subtle adjustments to still allow for juicy, epic characters but tone down the 'atomic' effect.
I would like to confirm that "Normal 30 point buy" means stepping away from the 1-to-1 you described, and uses the book published point buy?
On the "Races Tentative Change", I agree that removing the purchasing of additional ability score boosts is a problematic spot, and likely makes sense to remove.
As for me, I am still trying to come up with a concept, all the options are a little overwhelming (been diving into the legendary classes).
The changes sound good to me. I really like them. Just waiting to see the ruling on race points (I'm assuming at the moment that every race can be buffed up to 15RP total).
Also, I very much like having the normal point buy, no legendary ABP, but the custom +2 stats per 4 levels and the ability to buy the tomes. In the end, it all seems to just work out.
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The changes sound good to me. I really like them. Just waiting to see the ruling on race points (I'm assuming at the moment that every race can be buffed up to 15RP total).
Also, I very much like having the normal point buy, no legendary ABP, but the custom +2 stats per 4 levels and the ability to buy the tomes. In the end, it all seems to just work out.
Ability score increase was changed back to the standard of +1 per four levels.
Ah! I missed that. Thanks for letting me know.
Fallens back story.
Fallen doesn't know how/when they became a Elan, or who/what they were before the moment they work up a long time ago in a whole in the desert. Fallen form above the locals said. Back then the world was much more simpler as it is now. Things change slower, and if they said you fell from the sky, and no one asks more. Fallen found things to do, worked the land, subjugated monsters, was a slave for a time, A cook, an officer, A traveling Merchant, a sailor of the seas, a ruler of land, and many more lives lived. But always Fallen moved on. Over that time Fallen learned what they was capable of, and that they had a dual nature, A light and a dark side, locking it away until it was needed, learned to keep the light side facing the world. Fallen kept away from the limelight, letting others take credit for Fallens Deeds. Learned that fame or fortune had down sides. And kept at being a wanderer. Love interests fade as other grow old and passed, but Fallen knows a few immortals, who act as like Islands of stability and what seems to Fallen an ever faster changing world. But even with wondering and hiding away, Fallen over time gained a title, Cronossuss' they called Fallen when back at a place long ago visited. Later added 'Fallen of Time', A joke on Falens real name that stuck. So that is Fallen now, 'Cronossuss' fallen of time. Who walks the world.
Fallens is a oddity, having arrived with the Falling Starts event, that brought the Andorians and Androids etc. But Fallens may be older than that but dose not remember.
if i want to get the herolab files for both normal and mythic fey bound knight, does anyone have a link to such a place?
I've been making some changes to adjust my character's stats to better fit the ABP rules + Bench Pressing table. Still, there are a couple of things I need to know before really finalizing the build.
Namely, what is the Feat situation, again? Are we still doing 1 feat per level, or are we back down to regular feats per level? I certainly wouldn't mind going back down to the regular feat rules (1 feat every other level). The free Background Feat alone should be enough of a bonus, especially if we're still doing Elephant in the Room.
Aside from that, Traits. Exactly how many traits do we have? It's really unclear, and I would strongly prefer not to have to select 1 trait for each category when there are at least 14 categories. Should we just assume the regular 2 free traits?
Personally, I don't think it's a good idea to give too many freebies if you want a balanced game. Especially at this level. The game is remarkably easy to break, even with regular rules, as I hope I've proven with the two 1pp-only characters I posted earlier (The Fighter & The Mage).
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I've been making some changes to adjust my character's stats to better fit the ABP rules + Bench Pressing table. Still, there are a couple of things I need to know before really finalizing the build.
Namely, what is the Feat situation, again? Are we still doing 1 feat per level, or are we back down to regular feats per level? I certainly wouldn't mind going back down to the regular feat rules (1 feat every other level). The free Background Feat alone should be enough of a bonus, especially if we're still doing Elephant in the Room.
Aside from that, Traits. Exactly how many traits do we have? It's really unclear, and I would strongly prefer not to have to select 1 trait for each category when there are at least 14 categories. Should we just assume the regular 2 free traits?
Personally, I don't think it's a good idea to give too many freebies if you want a balanced game. Especially at this level. The game is remarkably easy to break, even with regular rules, as I hope I've proven with the two 1pp-only characters I posted earlier (The Fighter & The Mage).
Still 1 feat per level.
Traits you get one from each of Combat, Faith, Magic, and Social, plus one extra from whatever other category you want, without needing to meet any prerequisites.
Combat, Faith, Magic and Social, huh? I can swing it.
For people larger than medium, get a belt of the weasel. It provides compression so you can get by in half the normal space. Very useful.
This is super helpful, thanks. One compressed Taninim, coming up!