I'd like to know what the community thinks about three issues I have with the Dancing Shield spell:
#1: It seems to me that this spell can be used on a Fortress Shield to increase an ally's AC by +3, right?
#2: It also seems that this spell can be used on any (touched) shield, regardless if it is worn, held, or in possession of an unwilling creature even. As such it is an "automatic disarm" on a shield. Probably not RAI, but RAW, right?
#3: Where it gets wonky is when this spell is used with the Reach Spell spellshape. The rules on touch spells aren't quite clear if the spell requires a touch but has a non-touch range. The last sentence can be interpreted as "touch" basically meaning "0 ft range". As such, could Reach Spell + Dancing Shield be used to target shields 30 ft away instead of just those in touch range?
1. Yes, and since the target is not considered to be wielding the shield at the time, they aren't subject to its speed or check penalties. That being said, it seems strange that it doesn't mention what happens when the spell ends, such as the shield dropping to the ground or being able to be picked back up. It's probably one of the only few use cases where a Fortress Shield would be the best choice. Of course, Tower Shields are still garbage...
2. RAW would technically permit this, but it is obviously not RAI, as there are already spells that were written at the same level to disarm creatures of their equipment (Telekinetic Maneuver). However, if a creature is willing to let you touch their shield, I don't see a problem for the spell being usable if, for example, you are wanting to touch an ally's shield.
3. Reach Spell only works on the Range entry of the spell, and not any other parameters, meaning it will only increase the range at which you can Sustain the spell (90 feet instead of 60 feet). You must still be in range of Touch for a given shield, and your range of Touch is actually your natural reach (in most cases, 5 feet), not 0 feet (unless you are a Tiny or smaller creature).
3. Reach Spell only works on the Range entry of the spell, and not any other parameters, meaning it will only increase the range at which you can Sustain the spell (90 feet instead of 60 feet). You must still be in range of Touch for a given shield, and your range of Touch is actually your natural reach (in most cases, 5 feet), not 0 feet (unless you are a Tiny or smaller creature).
The thing is, Reach Spell is "wrong". The feat is paraphrasing the rules, which are slightly different from the actual rules (as linked in my post). The full reasoning develops as follows (& requires to read the rules).
The relevant part from Reach Spell is only:
If the next action you use is to Cast a Spell that has a range, increase that spell’s range by 30 feet.
Dancing Shield has definitely a range, thus that spell's range is increased by 30 feet.
The actual rules say about touch spells:
If an ability increases the range of a touch spell, start at 0 feet and increase from there.
Now, it says "touch spells", not "spells with a range of touch". If Dancing Shield is a touch spell, then the range of that touch should be increased from 0 ft to 30 ft according to the rules.
It is a weird interaction, but that is mostly due to Dancing Shield being weird in having both touch and range at the same time.
3. Reach Spell only works on the Range entry of the spell, and not any other parameters, meaning it will only increase the range at which you can Sustain the spell (90 feet instead of 60 feet). You must still be in range of Touch for a given shield, and your range of Touch is actually your natural reach (in most cases, 5 feet), not 0 feet (unless you are a Tiny or smaller creature).The thing is, Reach Spell is "wrong". The feat is paraphrasing the rules, which are slightly different from the actual rules (as linked in my post). The full reasoning develops as follows (& requires to read the rules).
The relevant part from Reach Spell is only:
If the next action you use is to Cast a Spell that has a range, increase that spell’s range by 30 feet.Dancing Shield has definitely a range, thus that spell's range is increased by 30 feet.
The actual rules say about touch spells:
If an ability increases the range of a touch spell, start at 0 feet and increase from there.Now, it says "touch spells", not "spells with a range of touch". If Dancing Shield is a touch spell, then the range of that touch should be increased from 0 ft to 30 ft according to the rules.
It is a weird interaction, but that is mostly due to Dancing Shield being weird in having both touch and range at the same time.
To be clear, I was referring to the base range of touch rules, which has always been within melee reach of the caster (0 feet for tiny, 5 feet for small and medium, 10 feet for large, etc). Just as well, Reach Spell already covers the exception you mentioned within its description:
As is standard for increasing spell ranges, if the spell normally has a range of touch, you extend its range to 30 feet.
So it's still consistent with the rules you mentioned; I would not argue that it would increase to 35 or 40 feet since it already specifies the range it sets any touch spell to (though at least it is a good reference point for other effects which may adjust those mechanics, few and far between as they may be, but even then I probably wouldn't have done it differently, citing Reach Spell as the example). That being said, Dancing Shield is not "a range of touch" spell, it is "a range of 60 feet" spell with a separate touch mechanic, so even with the argument of it being both, its benefits would not apply to any other effect that just so happen to require touching. Really, the increase in Range just lets your allies be further away from you if needed; it would be nice if, as part of the heightened entries, it would let you "float" the shield to another ally within range (similar to Spiritual Armament, Floating Flame, et. al.), effectively working as an adjustable defensive spell, but that's for a whole different thread entirely.
The argument of "touch spells aren't spells with a range of touch" is really splitting hairs, and I honestly don't see the difference from a casual reading standpoint. In my opinion, these are essentially synonymous phrases. A touch spell is a spell with a range of touch, and a spell with a range of touch is a touch spell. It's very difficult if not impossible to determine one is different from the other due to the different phrasing. Also, the rules already account for a spell having both a range and a touch mechanic to it and usually, if they do, they prioritize one over the other; in this case, it's prioritizing the range at which you can sustain the spell over the range of the shield touched.
The main thing is that you are trying to "double dip" the Reach Spell effect, which is not intended. It's only meant to affect one value, the range value, and not any other value, regardless of whether the RAW permits it or not. It falls under TGTBT, and as such, wouldn't really apply. As for whether you can affect one value over the other, that's at-best a GM FIAT call that's an uphill battle, and at-worst ruled to strictly be a "range only" attribute adjustment, since it commonly refers to the range of a spell, and not the range of any other effects of said spell. I know I personally would rule the latter instead of the former at my tables, and if other GMs want to weigh in their opinion/ruling, I'd be inclined to hear if they agree or disagree with me (and why/why not).
I really don't see how using Reach Spell to extend the touch to a 30 ft range is "TGTBT". I'd say that's the entire purpose of that feat...
And then you also invent things like range on sustain...
I've heard your opinion, thank you.