So the Vindicator(also know as Inquisitor) is a class archetype for the Ranger in the book.
They change the Nature stuff from Ranger to Religion and Primal to Divine, but I am kinda worried about the action economy of the archetype, as their damage bonus comes mainly from the focus spell Vindicator's Mark
VINDICATOR’S MARK [two-actions]
UNCOMMON MANIPULATE SANCTIFIED Range 60 feet; Target your hunted prey
Defense AC; Duration 1 minute
You launch a magical dart at your hunted prey, which marks them with a nimbus only you can detect. Make a spell attack against the target. On a hit, you deal 2d4 spirit damage and the target is marked by a glowing nimbus of energy that only you can see. For the duration of your spell, the marked target takes an additional +2 damage from all your weapon or unarmed attacks. Invisible targets marked by your vindicator’s mark are concealed to you, rather than undetected. You can Dismiss the spell on your turn if your last action dealt damage to the target with a weapon or unarmed attack, instantly dealing an additional 2d6 spirit damage to it.
Heightened (+2) The initial damage increases by 2d4, the additional damage you deal increases by 1, and the damage dealt when the spell is Dismissed increases by 1d6.
So it requires 1 action to Hunt Prey and then another 2 actions for the focus spell, and then you have to hit the spell attack (the Edge do help the accuracy as it gives +1 status bonus to hit spell attacks), so 3 actions total.
Though to be fair, the main objective of the archetype might be just be good with focus spells as it still have access to the Ranger ones and also the Domains feats from Cleric, so you can per example use Fire Ray as well. Also another exclusive one with Vindicators Judgment at level 10 that is 1 action and gives weakness 5 (scales to max 15) with fortitude save for 1 minute if the enemy fails or just the next strike/spell if they succeed.
I’m not entirely certain this is all that bad outside of the inherent MADness of being a Warden Ranger.
The spell isn’t a sustain, so you cast it once on the boss and the rest of your turns are almost free. On top of that, if your DM lets you use Hunt Prey out of combat (Basically just give you a way to track your enemy), the two action spell will still leave you with an action left!
On top of that it has a 60 foot range. So you don’t have to be close to use it. I think that for the most part, the action economy is a bit front loaded, but it’s hardly crippling.
One thing I noticed about this archetype is that it's the only ranger edge whose main damage booster is tied behind a limited resource with a high chance of failure.
The other ranger edges are just "you hunt prey and then you get to do more damage against this guy you don't particularly like." It works automatically and it only costs one action and nothing else.
Vindicator Edge however requires you to Hunt Prey for 1 action and then Vindicator's Mark for 2, which costs 1 focus point and requires that you succeed on a spell attack roll, which you are very bad at due to the fact that your spellcasting stat isn't your key stat and your spell attack proficiency only goes up to master.
If you somehow failed your spell attack roll to apply Vindicator's Mark, you just wasted 3 actions having accomplished nothing, on top of having wasted a limited resource. If you were somehow unlucky enough to have missed all of your Vindicator's Marks, then you are essentially a ranger with no edge since your damage booster relies solely on that mark landing.
Vindicator's Mark is a super unreliable and inconsistent way of boosting ranger damage compared to Flurry or Precision ranger, and I think this feels incredibly bad to use, especially since the damage bonus from Vindicator's Mark is only on par with Precision and the initial spell damage is not really much to speak of.
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Vindicator Edge however requires you to Hunt Prey for 1 action and then Vindicator's Mark for 2, which costs 1 focus point and requires that you succeed on a spell attack roll, which you are very bad at due to the fact that your spellcasting stat isn't your key stat and your spell attack proficiency only goes up to master.
Your edge gives you up to a +2 bonus to spell attacks which negates the lack of Legendary proficiency so you only have the difference in stats. You can start with a 16 vs an 18 so it hardly seems like it's "very bad".
Does the Vindicator archetype give any Divine cantrips or spell slot casting?
Nope. You gain the vindicator’s mark warden spell base and can learn vindicator’s judgment and domain spells with feats.
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Wait, so it is a spell, and the spell is a plinky dart you have to hit with to make it then create a nimbus of glowy energy only you can see?
That is so incredibly….I actually don’t know the words to describe it. “Narratively janky” springs to mind, but they may be because someone was describing WoI as filled with jank in the “Exemplar MC is overpowered” thread.
Quite apart from the action economy cost, it just feels really specific, and highly weird. Not really what I envision when I think Inquisitor or “Vindicator”.
”Did you hit them with the hunting…dart?” Cerbunos asked the grim stalker.
”Aye, they are thus marked. I can find them.” replied Edgius, peering into the mist for the telltale light of the plinkerton dart’s nimbus.
Plus, also strangely, if the last thing you did was hurt them, you can dismiss it and…hurt them more. Now *that* is vindictive, but doesn’t really help you find them any more.
I dunno, it just seems like a narratively mixed up activity, and I don’t like that you have to tacitly hit them with a ranged missile attack to enact it.
Yeah, I'll have to read this in full to get a better idea, but this doesn't at all seem to reflect what I had in mind for an updated Inquisitor either. Given how the Ranger was the designated class for this archetype, I thought it would've been a no-brainer to change Hunt Prey into a Judgment-type mechanic for lots more and different bonuses. Having to apply two separate target marks, one of which through a dinky little magic dart, seems a bit redundant, and in general I don't get this class archetype's niche of having more accurate spells when most of the Ranger's warden spells don't require a good spell modifier to work.
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This seems incredibly bad. No item boost for spell attack rolls. Hit against AC, usually a very high defense. Uses a focus point, so not usable to switch targets or against multiples. It's takes all the negatives of Hunt Prey and makes them worse.
The only real use I see for this archetype is if you want to go ranged and take eldritch archer down the line. Though even then, eldritch shot doesn't benefit from the +1 (eventually +2) you gain from being a vindicator so it also feels clunky in its execution.
This is yet another example of Paizo giving the stronger classes (rogue) really good toys (avenger) but somehow giving to their less than ideal classes (ranger) toys that don't even work (vindicator). Its like they have a rage boner with rangers or something.
Now I fear the gish cleric archetype from Divine Mysteries too because I wouldn't be surprised that ends up being bad as well. Oh well, at least I was half-expecting the avenger to be the true inquisitor of PF2e so its not like I'm really bothered with the vindicator.
It actually seems to me that it is an excellent Gish, but in a different vein than magus.
You setup the mark, doing damage in the process and giving all your Strikes extra damage, and when they get low you explode the mark for the finishing blow.
The Mark itself is good damage (basically a total of 2d4+2d6+ (2d4+1d6)/2ranks) and also gives a good generic damage boost for multiattacks till you explode it.
The edge itself makes your spells reach caster accuracy, and you get access to more Divine focus spells like searing rays and etc to capitalize on said accuracy boost.
I'd personally say that Eldritch archer seems like a trap option, since you usually want to Mark early on and then just pelt them with multiple attacks to benefit from the flat damage boost on those.
Something like Hunt->Mark r1, followed by Gravity bow/Judgment/other Divine focus spell you poached from a Domain)+Twin shot+detonate as an example.
Well, given that it is Spirit damage, it won't do anything to constructs, so they have an innate weakness to them that other classes don't. It's also limited to bows only, so now we basically have a Divine Starlit Span Magus. Not sure how I feel about that.
Wait, what? So we now have a subclass that gets full Martial and Spellcaster progression? Unless the Vindicator is capped at Expert in weapons, this is literally gamebreaking.
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Well, given that it is Spirit damage, it won't do anything to constructs, so they have an innate weakness to them that other classes don't.So... Precision Ranger, a very common edge, has a "weakness" vs stuff that are immune to precision damage?
The Vindicator's edge will also boost the rest of your spells vs the constructs, so stuff like fire ray and such taht aren't spirit damage do get benefits from the hunt target.
Plus, even vs constructs, the Vidndicator's mark still gives the flat damage boost (since that's just "additional damage" and not spirit damage) while the Precision ranger has nothing.
Caster accuracy with spell attacks isn't good. What offsets the need for this is high quality save options in abundance. If there were a bunch of high quality spell attack roll spells, caster accuracy would be problematic and irritating.
The Vindicator doesn't even have sure strike.
Once again, what do you do when switching targets or using something like double prey? Is the Vindicator solely for boss fights?
If you miss, wasted focus point and your key ability doesn't work? That's already been proven to be extremely bad with the Swashbuckler. This feels like Swashbuckler type of design and a lesson should have been learned from this type of design with a higher failure rate and limitations on a class that already has a Hunt Prey bottleneck against multiple targets.
I'll give it a read to see if I'm missing something, but right now this looks really unusable and undesirable.
Well, given that it is Spirit damage, it won't do anything to constructs, so they have an innate weakness to them that other classes don't.So... Precision Ranger, a very common edge, has a "weakness" vs stuff that are immune to precision damage?
The Vindicator's edge will also boost the rest of your spells vs the constructs, so stuff like fire ray and such taht aren't spirit damage do get benefits from the hunt target.
Plus, even vs constructs, the Vidndicator's mark still gives the flat damage boost (since that's just "additional damage" and not spirit damage) while the Precision ranger has nothing.
Same with Rogues. Plants and Oozes are their bane; I should know, I've fought them before, and they absolutely tanked my damage.
So the solution becomes "Just use a different focus spell." Meanwhile, the rest of your damage options absolutely tank as a result. Granted, I suppose that might be a fair price to pay, given that they have the absolute best proficiencies in the game (Legendary Perception, Legendary Reflex, Master Fortitude, up to Master Will, Master Martial, Legendary Spellcasting). Legit, the only thing they are missing is the skill feats/training from Rogues, and they are the most broken subclass there is.
Well, given that it is Spirit damage, it won't do anything to constructs, so they have an innate weakness to them that other classes don't.So... Precision Ranger, a very common edge, has a "weakness" vs stuff that are immune to precision damage?
The Vindicator's edge will also boost the rest of your spells vs the constructs, so stuff like fire ray and such taht aren't spirit damage do get benefits from the hunt target.
Plus, even vs constructs, the Vidndicator's mark still gives the flat damage boost (since that's just "additional damage" and not spirit damage) while the Precision ranger has nothing.
Same with Rogues. Plants and Oozes are their bane; I should know, I've fought them before, and they absolutely tanked my damage.
So the solution becomes "Just use a different focus spell." Meanwhile, the rest of your damage options absolutely tank as a result. Granted, I suppose that might be a fair price to pay, given that they have the absolute best proficiencies in the game (Legendary Perception, Legendary Reflex, Master Fortitude, up to Master Will, Master Martial, Legendary Spellcasting). Legit, the only thing they are missing is the skill feats/training from Rogues, and they are the most broken subclass there is.
I’m not sure that the other damage options tank necessarily. As was already stated, the only Spirit damage on Vindicators Mark is the initial hit, and the 2d6 from dismissing it so your bow or deities favored weapon of choice will still be dealing an extra +2 damage.
If you make your wisdom your secondary stat, you should have roughly the same to hit chance with focus spells on your prey as your weapons for the first few levels at least.
Spirit is also among the least resisted damage types in the game as of right now, which makes it ideal in such a wide variety of circumstances that constructs being immune is hardly a major drawback.
You can also grab domain spells as Warden Spells so say you’re a Vindicator of Sarenrae, just take Fire domain and you get plenty of options.
Is it an absolutely broken class? No, but I hardly think it’s unplayable.
Well, given that it is Spirit damage, it won't do anything to constructs, so they have an innate weakness to them that other classes don't.So... Precision Ranger, a very common edge, has a "weakness" vs stuff that are immune to precision damage?
The Vindicator's edge will also boost the rest of your spells vs the constructs, so stuff like fire ray and such taht aren't spirit damage do get benefits from the hunt target.
Plus, even vs constructs, the Vidndicator's mark still gives the flat damage boost (since that's just "additional damage" and not spirit damage) while the Precision ranger has nothing.
Caster accuracy with spell attacks isn't good. What offsets the need for this is high quality save options in abundance. If there were a bunch of high quality spell attack roll spells, caster accuracy would be problematic and irritating.
The Vindicator doesn't even have sure strike.
Once again, what do you do when switching targets or using something like double prey? Is the Vindicator solely for boss fights?
If you miss, wasted focus point and your key ability doesn't work? That's already been proven to be extremely bad with the Swashbuckler. This feels like Swashbuckler type of design and a lesson should have been learned from this type of design with a higher failure rate and limitations on a class that already has a Hunt Prey bottleneck against multiple targets.
I'll give it a read to see if I'm missing something, but right now this looks really unusable and undesirable.
It's not just with Spell Attacks though?
Enemies also get -1/2 on their SAves vs your divine spells.
So if you want to pick up a divine save based spell, that also benefits from the "increased accuracy".As an example, your other focus spell is a save based that gives 5 weakness to both your attacks and your spells. If you dread having to land the spell attack, just use that one for an extra 5 points...
I'm going to read it first. Spell attack rolls for a martial that can't max their casting stat to make a thing work is not a great idea. It wasn't even a great idea for the swashbuckler and they could get their activation skill to Legendary with item bonuses.
These kind of double failure abilities that are action hogs combined with a roll are usually not great abilities.
Right now as I see it the ability requires three actions to set up with an attack roll, so if you get reduced to 2 actions by slow or some other ability or have to move, you have another point of failure.
I'm wondering how this ability works with Double Prey or once your main target is dead.
Always wanted Inquisitor back, massively disappointed.