The Stance lets you Flurry with the bow using the bow normally, a.k.a. at range (though only in the first increment). If it did add a melee option, the ability would have to mention that. It's pretty straightforward, no need to parse out misleading interpretations.
I am a bit disappointed one can't punch while wielding a bow. :/
There is no full attack. You could use flurry of blows and then make two more strikes, but that' doesn't have a special name. Flurry of Blows interacts with the multiple attqck penalty normally, so the second strike will be at a greater penalty unless you'd already made two attacks before in the turn.
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I am a bit disappointed one can't punch while wielding a bow. :/
I guess you could still kick :)
Thanks for answering my question. Here's another:
When I Flurry as part of a full attack, is my multiple attack penalty
0, 0, 5, 10
or
0, 5, 10, 15?
In Monastic Archer Stance, you specifically can't kick, or punch with the hand that isn't holding the bow, for that matter. That's the restriction the stance brings that doesn't apply to any bow wielder who isn't using that stance.
As for the MAP
0, -5, -10, -10.
MAP maxes out and is the same for the 3rd attack and all subsequent attacks.
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Oh, wow, that IS a big bummer! I guess one would have to dismiss the stance in order to punch or kick. Does dismissing the stance take an action?
Thanks for answering about the MAP
It does take an action to drop out of stance.
Note that if there *were* a feat or ability which let you use a longbow or shortbow as a melee weapon, you could make a melee attack with that. (I don't think know of such a thing, but it is possible. In 1e there was a feat that let you use a sling as a whip, for instance.)
I have a Bullet Dancer Monk, which is essentially the same thing but with guns and bayonets. If you want to punch you do it before going into stance, but the fact that I can use bayonets in stance means stance switching isn't really a thing.
The good news is that if you are using a Shortbow, there isn't really a reason not to shoot with it, even in melee range. (It provokes, but that usually isn't a problem.)
I am a bit disappointed one can't punch while wielding a bow. :/
I guess you could still kick :)
Thanks for answering my question. Here's another:
When I Flurry as part of a full attack, is my multiple attack penalty
0, 0, 5, 10
or
0, 5, 10, 15?In Monastic Archer Stance, you specifically can't kick, or punch with the hand that isn't holding the bow, for that matter. That's the restriction the stance brings that doesn't apply to any bow wielder who isn't using that stance.
As for the MAP
0, -5, -10, -10.MAP maxes out and is the same for the 3rd attack and all subsequent attacks.
Oh, wow, that IS a big bummer! I guess one would have to dismiss the stance in order to punch or kick. Does dismissing the stance take an action?
Thanks for answering about the MAP
I'm not aware of a way to dismiss a stance. RAW, the only way to end a stance is to either enter another stance (ending the first one), or to violate the requirements of the stance.
In the case of Monastic Archer Stance, the requirements are being unarmored and wielding a bow. So if you stow your bow, you no longer meet the terms of the stance and it ends.
Yes, its kind of a gap in the rules that there isn't a more direct way to drop a stance, IMO. I suspect a lot of GMs would just let you end the stance as an action if you asked them.
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I'm not aware of a way to dismiss a stance. RAW, the only way to end a stance is to either enter another stance (ending the first one), or to violate the requirements of the stance.
That was changed in the Remaster.
A stance is a general combat strategy that you enter by using an action with the stance trait, and you remain in for some time. A stance lasts until you get knocked out, until its requirements (if any) are violated, until the encounter ends, or until you use a stance action again, whichever comes first. After you take an action with the stance trait, you can’t take another one for 1 round. You can enter or be in a stance only in encounter mode. You can Dismiss a stance.
It also added a 1/round limit on Stance actions. That wasn't there in pre-Remaster.
And the Dismiss being referenced is the Dismiss action which was expanded in the Remaster to be able to apply to more than just spells (was previously named Dismiss a Spell).
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I'm not aware of a way to dismiss a stance. RAW, the only way to end a stance is to either enter another stance (ending the first one), or to violate the requirements of the stance.That was changed in the Remaster.
A stance is a general combat strategy that you enter by using an action with the stance trait, and you remain in for some time. A stance lasts until you get knocked out, until its requirements (if any) are violated, until the encounter ends, or until you use a stance action again, whichever comes first. After you take an action with the stance trait, you can’t take another one for 1 round. You can enter or be in a stance only in encounter mode. You can Dismiss a stance.It also added a 1/round limit on Stance actions. That wasn't there in pre-Remaster.
And the Dismiss being referenced is the Dismiss action which was expanded in the Remaster to be able to apply to more than just spells (was previously named Dismiss a Spell).
Oh great, thanks!
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Note, however, that while Monastic Archer Stance precludes any other Strikes than with a Bow of some sort, it does not preclude combat maneuvers since they are Skill Checks not Strikes. Flurry of Maneuvers will still work with Monastic Archer.
As a side note, Stunning Fist is also fair game for a Monastic Archer's Flurry of Bows.
Further question: can you use a Bow Staff to make melee attacks in Monastic Archer? It's a combination weapon where both the melee and ranged options have the monk trait.
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Further question: can you use a Bow Staff to make melee attacks in Monastic Archer? It's a combination weapon where both the melee and ranged options have the monk trait.
The melee option of the combination weapon is in the club group not the bow group, so it fails the test of "bows with the monk trait" since it stops being a bow when you decide to club someone with it.
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There is no full attack. You could use flurry of blows and then make two more strikes, but that' doesn't have a special name. Flurry of Blows interacts with the multiple attqck penalty normally, so the second strike will be at a greater penalty unless you'd already made two attacks before in the turn.Ah! Im new to 2E, still learning the nuances. Thanks
Yeah, it's a BIG change from 1E to 2E.
I would strongly encourage you to go reread the action economy section of the 2E rules, because it seems like you've missed some things.
As a base, everyone gets 3 actions a round (I like to think of them as action points), plus 1 reaction, and free actions (to whatever quantity the GM allows).
Many special abilities/actions will require more than 1 action point to do, but usually have some serious benefit over doing something similar without that special ability/action.
For example, in second edition the Flurry of Blows action of the Monk, costs 1 action, but allows you to make 2 attacks. If you tried to make 2 attacks without FoB, it would cost you 2 of your 3 actions for the turn. FoB also has other benefits like if you make the attacks against the same target you get to combine their damage for the purpose of calculating how much damage you deal against resistance (although it also gets combined when trigger weakness). You still apply the multiple attack penalty for FoB as is standard for 2E though.
Compare that to the Fighter feat, Double Slice. Double Slice costs 2 actions, but
You lash out at your foe with both weapons. Make two Strikes, one with each of your two melee weapons, each using your current multiple attack penalty. Both Strikes must have the same target. If the second Strike is made with a weapon that doesn’t have the agile trait, it takes a –2 penalty.
If both attacks hit, combine their damage, and then add any other applicable effects from both weapons. You add any precision damage only once, to the attack of your choice. Combine the damage from both Strikes and apply resistances and weaknesses only once. This counts as two attacks when calculating your multiple attack penalty.
So the fighter has to spend 2 of 3 actions to do double slice, but their second attack is more accurate than the second attack of FoB.
As a result of FOB, the monk can be quite mobile. Spend action to move into range of your target (remember that most enemies by default do not have something equivalent to an Attack of Opportunity). Doing this also get's the benefit of your higher than normal speed gained from being a monk. You get up next to your target, unleash your FoB, and then use your final action to move away. You can very effectively kite an enemy doing this. And because of your higher speed, it usually costs them more than 1 action to move adjacent to you to attack in melee. Now this tactic is less effective if your party is close to the enemy, as they're likely to just hit your ally instead of chasing you, but it can be very effective at mitigating damage your monk will take.
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I'm not aware of a way to dismiss a stance. RAW, the only way to end a stance is to either enter another stance (ending the first one), or to violate the requirements of the stance.That was changed in the Remaster.
A stance is a general combat strategy that you enter by using an action with the stance trait, and you remain in for some time. A stance lasts until you get knocked out, until its requirements (if any) are violated, until the encounter ends, or until you use a stance action again, whichever comes first. After you take an action with the stance trait, you can’t take another one for 1 round. You can enter or be in a stance only in encounter mode. You can Dismiss a stance....
And the Dismiss being referenced is the Dismiss action which was expanded in the Remaster to be able to apply to more than just spells (was previously named Dismiss a Spell).
Nice catch! I hadn't noticed that they had added the text about Dismissing a stance.
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It also added a 1/round limit on Stance actions. That wasn't there in pre-Remaster.
That rule has actually been there from the beginning of PF2.
stance (trait) A stance is a general combat strategy that you enter by using an action with the stance trait, and that you remain in for some time. A stance lasts until you get knocked out, until its requirements (if any) are violated, until the encounter ends, or until you enter a new stance, whichever comes first. After you use an action with the stance trait, you can’t use another one for 1 round. You can enter or be in a stance only in encounter mode.
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It also added a 1/round limit on Stance actions. That wasn't there in pre-Remaster.That rule has actually been there from the beginning of PF2.
Thanks. I hadn't noticed that before.
As a result of FOB, the monk can be quite mobile.
This is specifically why "you can only make attacks with ranged weapons" is not that limiting in the stance. Since of all the various people who want to shoot, you are most likely the most mobile of the lot. Flurry rangers are essentially turrets, but you have two actions left after you attack twice (and -10 MAP attacks are generally of lower value than almost anything else you could do that helps somehow.)
Thanks. I hadn't noticed that before.It also added a 1/round limit on Stance actions. That wasn't there in pre-Remaster.That rule has actually been there from the beginning of PF2.
I hadn't noticed it either until you said that it had been added in the remaster. Then I worked my way back through the previous texts and errata and realized that it had always been there. I'm guessing it didn't register in my brain since I already "knew" from PF1 that you couldn't just take multiple stances at once.
As a result of FOB, the monk can be quite mobile.This is specifically why "you can only make attacks with ranged weapons" is not that limiting in the stance. Since of all the various people who want to shoot, you are most likely the most mobile of the lot. Flurry rangers are essentially turrets, but you have two actions left after you attack twice (and -10 MAP attacks are generally of lower value than almost anything else you could do that helps somehow.)
True, but the flurry ranger is only -6 against their target after their second attack. So flurry rangers can keep on firing.
True, but the flurry ranger is only -6 against their target after their second attack. So flurry rangers can keep on firing.As a result of FOB, the monk can be quite mobile.This is specifically why "you can only make attacks with ranged weapons" is not that limiting in the stance. Since of all the various people who want to shoot, you are most likely the most mobile of the lot. Flurry rangers are essentially turrets, but you have two actions left after you attack twice (and -10 MAP attacks are generally of lower value than almost anything else you could do that helps somehow.)
Yeah, flurry rangers are the exception, but also exceedingly locked into being a turret. The crazy part about it is, IIRC the DPR comparison accurately, that the Flurry ranger, while dealing more damage per round than the Precision ranger the Precision ranger isn't that far behind but has a much more flexible action economy because they don't need to spend all their turn firing arrows to get good benefit out of their Hunter's Edge.
I have seen plenty of instances where because of enemies moving around corners, up to attack the ranger, etc that the flurry ranger ends up not being able to do what they want (fire 3/4 arrows a round) and instead is forced/really wants to move or do something besides shoot. Which is more detrimental to their damage output compared to a Precision ranger or monk.
True, but the flurry ranger is only -6 against their target after their second attack. So flurry rangers can keep on firing.As a result of FOB, the monk can be quite mobile.This is specifically why "you can only make attacks with ranged weapons" is not that limiting in the stance. Since of all the various people who want to shoot, you are most likely the most mobile of the lot. Flurry rangers are essentially turrets, but you have two actions left after you attack twice (and -10 MAP attacks are generally of lower value than almost anything else you could do that helps somehow.)
This is good design since it makes different flavors of "archer" play differently. The flurry ranger is a great choice for someone who wants to just "shoot arrows constantly". The monk is a great choice for someone who wants to make 2 attacks but have two actions left for whatever else they want. It's a question about "stability vs. flexibility" for your 3 actions.
Like the monk in general is a great choice for archetyping for "something else beneficial you can do with an action or two" like bard for Couragic Anthem, Psychic for Shield/Guidance+Psi Strikes, Jalmeri Heavenseeker, etc.
True, but the flurry ranger is only -6 against their target after their second attack. So flurry rangers can keep on firing.As a result of FOB, the monk can be quite mobile.This is specifically why "you can only make attacks with ranged weapons" is not that limiting in the stance. Since of all the various people who want to shoot, you are most likely the most mobile of the lot. Flurry rangers are essentially turrets, but you have two actions left after you attack twice (and -10 MAP attacks are generally of lower value than almost anything else you could do that helps somehow.)Yeah, flurry rangers are the exception, but also exceedingly locked into being a turret. The crazy part about it is, IIRC the DPR comparison accurately, that the Flurry ranger, while dealing more damage per round than the Precision ranger the Precision ranger isn't that far behind but has a much more flexible action economy because they don't need to spend all their turn firing arrows to get good benefit out of their Hunter's Edge.
I have seen plenty of instances where because of enemies moving around corners, up to attack the ranger, etc that the flurry ranger ends up not being able to do what they want (fire 3/4 arrows a round) and instead is forced/really wants to move or do something besides shoot. Which is more detrimental to their damage output compared to a Precision ranger or monk.
You go through a lot of arrows too. You have to hope you have a handwave the ammunition DM.
I built my flurry ranger to provide the hunter's edge bonus to allies. I'm starting to think the ranger is built to be a support martial and that's it's most effective role.